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+--- Thread: New Hunter talent trees (/thread-5953.html)
New Hunter talent trees - Brista - 07-30-2005
The Beast Mastery and Survival trees have been re-worked
Hooo boy, Hunters are going to be really good against flag carriers now!
http://wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talen...er/talents.html
New Hunter talent trees - Mirajj - 07-30-2005
Brista,Jul 29 2005, 08:53 PM Wrote:The Beast Mastery and Survival trees have been re-worked
Hooo boy, Hunters are going to be really good against flag carriers now!
http://wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talen...er/talents.html
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Acutally, all three trees have been reworked! Planning respecs already! *L*
Edit : Checking it out, I can find where I want to put all but 4 points. Nice. I'm still not overexcited about the Survival tree, but I can see putting a single skill point in each of the three beginning points, just for the percents. It looks like I'll be off to the test realm, testing hunter builds when I get there. *L*
New Hunter talent trees - Lissa - 07-30-2005
Mirajj,Jul 29 2005, 07:15 PM Wrote:Acutally, all three trees have been reworked! Planning respecs already! *L*
Edit : Checking it out, I can find where I want to put all but 4 points. Nice. I'm still not overexcited about the Survival tree, but I can see putting a single skill point in each of the three beginning points, just for the percents. It looks like I'll be off to the test realm, testing hunter builds when I get there. *L*
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You're kidding right on Survival? Survival is now *THE* tree for hunters....+15% Agi...Increased Health (about the equivalent of 30 extra stamina or more), +3% crit chance on all attacks and dovetails with the +5 crit chance in marksmanship to give you +8 crit chance with bows? I will gladly say goodbye to Trueshot Aura to get the final sting in Survival and everything I can inbetween...I can easily see Lissanna going 31 Survival and 20 Marksman now.
New Hunter talent trees - Skandranon - 07-30-2005
Lissa,Jul 29 2005, 10:15 PM Wrote:I can easily see Lissanna going 31 Survival and 20 Marksman now.
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This is going to be the new cookie-cutter build for hunters. 31 Survival is so absurdly powerful and so enormously superior to the other two trees that any endgame hunter who isn't specced this way can expect noticeable differences in all factors of the game.
New Hunter talent trees - Artega - 07-30-2005
In a word, obscene.
Total Health +10%? That's flat-out ridiculous. Hunters aren't tanks. They do not need the extra HP; they have Mail armor and various methods of keeping melee targets away from them.
Agility +15%? That's even worse. Even if it operates solely on base AGI, +15% represents a large boost in crit-rate, Dodge, and attack power. Again, the idea of passively increasing any stat - basic or derived - by this magnitude without some sort of drawback (a la Demonic Embrace) is ludicrous.
They already had Precision to increase their chance to hit. They don't need snare/root resistance to go with it.
+20% crit to Raptor Strike seems WAY too high. Hunters can use the same weapons Warriors can (for the most part), and giving Raptor Strike +20% crit would be the same as giving Heroic Strike +20% crit.
Without Counterattack, Deterrence seems kind of silly. I guess it could be used to make Mongoose Bite proc more often, but I heard Mongoose Bite was crap.
Killer Instinct is overpowered as is. +3% crit to melee attacks is fine; +3% to both melee AND ranged is not.
Bestial Wrath combined with the other pet-damage boosters sounds pretty frightening, especially when you factor in the fear immunity (and presumable sleep/sheep immunity.) You'll already have +15% damage from Unleashed Fury, and then +15% crit from Ferocity. You have an uberized version of Flurry via Frenzy, and a stun via Intimidation. Finally, your pet is now dealing double damage (quadruple damage on frequent crits) and is presumably immune to all CC effects for 15 seconds, and this happens every two minutes.
If these proposed changes make it into the game, I'm quitting. I've already experienced this crap with Diablo II. I'm not going to suffer through it again at fifteen dollars a month.
New Hunter talent trees - Rinnhart - 07-30-2005
Except that last bit: agreed.
New Hunter talent trees - Quark - 07-30-2005
Brista,Jul 29 2005, 09:53 PM Wrote:The Beast Mastery and Survival trees have been re-worked
Hooo boy, Hunters are going to be really good against flag carriers now!
http://wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talen...er/talents.html
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They stole Deterence from Rogue's Evasion and Readiness from Rogue's Preparation ... then gave them both a 5 minute cooldown. Don't argue that Readiness doesn't need 10 minutes because it doesn't reset cooldown on all skills, because every Rogue worth his salt knows Prep is for Evasion, Vanish, and (rarely, only PvP) Sprint. Once in my character's life did I use Preparation for something else - Kidney Shot to save a Priest's life. Hunters counter with Deterence, Feign Death, and Traps. So they get a better effect more often.
Addition: so yeah, I just spent 3 minutes on the talent tool and came out with a 31/20 Survival/Marksmanship build that should greatly increase Hunter's DPS and make them much more versatile. This is a cookie-cutter build, PvE and PvP.
New Hunter talent trees - Brista - 07-30-2005
Artega,Jul 30 2005, 10:33 AM Wrote:In a word, obscene.
....
If these proposed changes make it into the game, I'm quitting. I've already experienced this crap with Diablo II. I'm not going to suffer through it again at fifteen dollars a month.
Surely an over-reaction
Hunters have been one of the weaker, although more interesting classes. You have a Warrior and a Shaman I believe? Warriors get a big boost every time a bigger end-game toy comes along and Shamans are still more powerful than Hunters
So if Hunter dps goes up 10% and their ability to defend the flag noticeably increases they remain a niche underpowered class, certainly compared to the two powerhouses that you play
Raptor strike improvements are the least of your worries, either of your classes will massacre a Hunter who stands there trading blows
No way does this turn the Hunter class into the equivalent of D2X's Windforce Amazons
New Hunter talent trees - Brista - 07-30-2005
Skandranon,Jul 30 2005, 09:38 AM Wrote:This is going to be the new cookie-cutter build for hunters. 31 Survival is so absurdly powerful and so enormously superior to the other two trees that any endgame hunter who isn't specced this way can expect noticeable differences in all factors of the game.
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Beast Mastery is pretty good. A 3 second stun with a one minute cooldown and a 15 second immunity to any cc makes a pretty scary pet.
Don't pay to much attention to test centre reports of this tree - the rather useless furball you get on a Test Hunter bears no comparison to a real pet
New Hunter talent trees - Zarathustra - 07-30-2005
Artega,Jul 30 2005, 03:33 AM Wrote:In a word, obscene.
Agility +15%? That's even worse. Even if it operates solely on base AGI, +15% represents a large boost in crit-rate, Dodge, and attack power. Again, the idea of passively increasing any stat - basic or derived - by this magnitude without some sort of drawback (a la Demonic Embrace) is ludicrous.
Too much time spent on Warriors, bud. Hunters will not even get 1% crit from this. Warriors benefit in the crit department far more when it comes to Agility than Hunters. This isn't a big deal.
Quote:If these proposed changes make it into the game, I'm quitting.
Somehow I doubt that, but you've got to do whatever makes you happy.
New Hunter talent trees - crowley - 07-30-2005
It's a very impressive change, easily the biggest change to a class since the Paladin re-work and that still happened in beta (barely).
No Hunter i know said 1 negative word about the changes...which is amazing considering that shadow priests & shamans still find things to complain about.
New Hunter talent trees - Kevin - 07-30-2005
Brista,Jul 29 2005, 08:53 PM Wrote:The Beast Mastery and Survival trees have been re-worked
Hooo boy, Hunters are going to be really good against flag carriers now!
http://wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talen...er/talents.html
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See I wanted to make a melee hunter, just because, always have. That of course is not what they did with survival. Removing counter attack, which was one of the few nice melee skills, and adding all this stuff that supliments ranged attacks isn't really the best way to go for what I want. The final survival talent is just nuts. Hunters now have two forms of CC that work on anything. Sure they are 12 and 26 (trap with new talent) seconds but that is still a big deal. The hunter was one of the best solo classes in the game already, they just got better. They made it so that you can do even more ranged damage and basically said, yeah we don't want variant scum melee hunters, we want cookie cutter 31/20 survival marksman with a few beatmaster hunters.
I like the beast mastery changes and I don't think they are out of whack. It's still a variant build as the 31/20 survival marksman is the cookie cutter now, but it won't be as gimpy. I have a beast master hunter at L43 and he is quite happy about these changes. When I saw that spirit bond would only require 21 points I got exicted that a survival/beast hybrid could do the melee hunter (that pet healing you really ups your melee viability 20 health every second, because of frenzy being active pretty much all the time and the attack speed of a well chosen pet then getting to 1.0 or faster, it's even more since claw and bite make it go off as well). But they went for what more customers do. They upped PvP skills a lot and upped ranged and solo survivability even more. Don't get me wrong the melee hunter variant scum is more viable now, but they didn't really help melee DPS that much. A 6 second cooldown with 20% crit chance raptor strike and weak mongoose bite that is mainly used to get back in ranged, and some better crit chances (that look to work for ranged as well) don't really help the melee side of things that much. But I really do understand why it didn't happen. Hunters are designed as a ranged attacker, making them even more hybrid wasn't what they were looking for.
I personally never thought the hunter was that broken. Pets weren't fully implemented and survival was a pointless tree except for some PvP stuff. They didn't really change beast mastery that much. Moved some of the nicer pet buffs up, increased the usefulness of some (15% v 10% on the damage talent, the focus talent will acutally do something though it's deeper in now), front loaded pathfindig, gave you more dodge chance (5 points to monkey instead of just 3 now), made intimidation do something, moved a top tier talent to where it should have been with Spirit Bond. The new top talent is very nice DPS add though. From my experience with my L43 hunter who was beast before, the pet will under frenzy and in beastial wrath most of the time. If people will allow hunters to have pets out in instances a beast hunter when considered with their pets should still do some damn good DPS since they can still get most of the damage adding marksman talents.
New Hunter talent trees - Mirajj - 07-30-2005
Lissa,Jul 29 2005, 10:15 PM Wrote:You're kidding right on Survival? Survival is now *THE* tree for hunters....+15% Agi...Increased Health (about the equivalent of 30 extra stamina or more), +3% crit chance on all attacks and dovetails with the +5 crit chance in marksmanship to give you +8 crit chance with bows? I will gladly say goodbye to Trueshot Aura to get the final sting in Survival and everything I can inbetween...I can easily see Lissanna going 31 Survival and 20 Marksman now.
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Nope, not kidding. I like my current build, and am currently reworking that. I've never been one to worry if my hunter is Uber or not, I prefer to keep a certain 'feel' to them. will likely play around with builds on the test realm, and see what I come up with, but at current, I'm sticking with BM/Marks.
New Hunter talent trees - Treesh - 07-30-2005
Quark,Jul 30 2005, 07:01 AM Wrote:They stole Deterence from Rogue's Evasion and Readiness from Rogue's Preparation ... then gave them both a 5 minute cooldown. Don't argue that Readiness doesn't need 10 minutes because it doesn't reset cooldown on all skills, because every Rogue worth his salt knows Prep is for Evasion, Vanish, and (rarely, only PvP) Sprint. Once in my character's life did I use Preparation for something else - Kidney Shot to save a Priest's life. Hunters counter with Deterence, Feign Death, and Traps. So they get a better effect more often.Deterrence was there before this reported reworking. GG's melee hunter uses it frequently when we're duoing and end up with a bunch of nasty, hard-hitting mobs on us.
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New Hunter talent trees - Skandranon - 07-30-2005
Zarathustra,Jul 30 2005, 09:26 AM Wrote:Too much time spent on Warriors, bud. Hunters will not even get 1% crit from this. Warriors benefit in the crit department far more when it comes to Agility than Hunters. This isn't a big deal.
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Yeah, but this is fifteen percent. Hunters only don't get 1% crit if they have <300 agility. By endgame most hunters are running around with 400 and even 500 agility. Not to mention the enormous bonus to ranged attack power that this much agility will give.
New Hunter talent trees - Quark - 07-30-2005
Gnollguy,Jul 30 2005, 11:12 AM Wrote:Sure they are 12 and 26 (trap with new talent) seconds but that is still a big deal.[right][snapback]84653[/snapback][/right]
Gonna nip this in the bud right here - don't expect Wyvern Sting to be limited to 12 seconds. Blizzard will most likely add higher ranks that you can purchase.
Response to Treesh: guess it shows how little I played Hunters before :) Anyway, Hunters with Deterrence will now be cookie-cutter, and it really is superior to Evasion for one reason - Overpower.
As for Counterattack, I wonder if Blizzard would implement that as a skill that didn't require talents.
Another addition: I can easily see 40/11 Survival/Marksmanship builds becoming popular with PvP players. The one talent that gets truly lost is Mortal Shots, but Survivability goes up a lot. If Counterattack is still in as a non-talent, it's better even still.
New Hunter talent trees - Quark - 07-30-2005
Skandranon,Jul 30 2005, 03:01 PM Wrote:Yeah, but this is fifteen percent. Hunters only don't get 1% crit if they have <300 agility. By endgame most hunters are running around with 400 and even 500 agility. Not to mention the enormous bonus to ranged attack power that this much agility will give.
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Agreed. The only reason I'm lacking in Agility compared to some Rogues and Hunters as a Rogue is because I substitute it with alot of +crit and +ap gear. I'd gladly drop all my gear and go pure agility if I had a talent like this. Then I'd also be getting Dodge out of the deal.
New Hunter talent trees - Brista - 07-30-2005
Quark,Jul 30 2005, 08:16 PM Wrote:Gonna nip this in the bud right here - don't expect Wyvern Sting to be limited to 12 seconds. Blizzard will most likely add higher ranks that you can purchase.
Higher ranks may add more poison damage, not more time. We don't yet know
Quote:Anyway, Hunters with Deterrence will now be cookie-cutter, and it really is superior to Evasion for one reason - Overpower.
Any Hunter meleeing is being unwise. The main useful melee talent is Improved Wing Clip. A Hunter who uses Deterrence to go toe-to-toe with real melee classes in pvp will get murdered. The purpose of melee for hunters in pvp will remain to stick a wing clip on and get distance. Occasionally you can finish off an opponent or you resort to melee out of desperation against someone you can't get out of your dead zone but it's in no way a viable fighting method against players
New Hunter talent trees - Lissa - 07-30-2005
Quark,Jul 30 2005, 12:32 PM Wrote:Agreed. The only reason I'm lacking in Agility compared to some Rogues and Hunters as a Rogue is because I substitute it with alot of +crit and +ap gear. I'd gladly drop all my gear and go pure agility if I had a talent like this. Then I'd also be getting Dodge out of the deal.
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One thing with the change, it makes Beaststalker more desireable now since it is all about increasing stats. This is the reason Lissanna has shied away from Beaststalkers, not enough +crit chance and better go to with most the dire maul gear (although I'll have to take a closer look at some of the DM gear, it may not be that far behind on Agi as I may think).
New Hunter talent trees - Kevin - 07-30-2005
Brista,Jul 30 2005, 02:38 PM Wrote:Higher ranks may add more poison damage, not more time. We don't yet know
Any Hunter meleeing is being unwise. The main useful melee talent is Improved Wing Clip. A Hunter who uses Deterrence to go toe-to-toe with real melee classes in pvp will get murdered. The purpose of melee for hunters in pvp will remain to stick a wing clip on and get distance. Occasionally you can finish off an opponent or you resort to melee out of desperation against someone you can't get out of your dead zone but it's in no way a viable fighting method against players
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Yes, but now that so many hunters will have it you can hit it and then wing clip and take even less damage while getting distance. Sure you won't want to go toe to toe, but deterence since it ups your parry and not just your dodge will still be good to pop even against a warrior since. Then you wing clip while avoiding any damage they can put on you and get back to range on them. I have a hunter that I built as a melee hunter for PvE just to see and detereance is a great skill for stopping damage. And if improved wing clip doesn't go on the first swing to imobilize you can now stand around, not taking damage and try it again with deterance running. Or much more easily clip 2 opponents with much less worry.