Guns, Butter, and Led Zepplin

[kandrathe]

Sometimes it's hard to understand the purpose of the 2nd amemdment to our Constitution, and people like to toss out these red herrings. The right to bear arms is not a crime thing. We don't have the right to bear arms to defend ourselves from burglers or muggers, and we don't have the right to go hunting.

The United States formed from an armed insurrection against British tyrrany, and an armed populace (and a French alliance) was the means by which that was possible. The struggles against the British lasted for 40 years, until the clash of irregular militia against professional soldiers at the Plains of Chalmette, near New Oreleans, in 1815.

It is a stretch to imagine any uprising today standing up against a modern army's firepower, but unlike Tiananmen Square an unarmed protester facing down a tank in most struggles is a casualty. Yet, we are still witness that some struggles for liberty are able to survive in the age of modern warfare at a terrible cost to their peoples.

"We the people" means something in the USA, even though we the people have allowed our liberties to be eroded by federal beaurecrats and liberal hand-wringers. Yes guns are misused and there are gun accidents, and there are murders, and there is gun crime and domestic violence. Guns are not unique in their lethality, but guns are an expeditious tool for killing people. The right to own and use them is not for their misuses, but to empower the people to defend their own liberty.

So, until we develop a way to empower people to defend their liberty with merely rhetoric, weapons will be required. When and if the eventual tyrrant comes to ursurp our democracy, I'd rather have a really big gun than a pitchfork.

[Doc]

Sometimes it's hard to understand the purpose of the 2nd amemdment to our Constitution, and people like to toss out these red herrings.  The right to bear arms is not a crime thing.  We don't have the right to bear arms to defend ourselves from burglers or muggers, and we don't have the right to go hunting. 

The United States formed from an armed insurrection against British tyrrany, and an armed populace (and a French alliance) was the means by which that was possible.  The struggles against the British lasted for 40 years, until the clash of irregular militia against professional soldiers at the Plains of Chalmette, near New Oreleans, in 1815.

It is a stretch to imagine any uprising today standing up against a modern army's firepower, but unlike Tiananmen Square an unarmed protester facing down a tank in most struggles is a casualty.  Yet, we are still witness that some struggles for liberty are able to survive in the age of modern warfare at a terrible cost to their peoples.

"We the people" means something in the USA, even though we the people have allowed our liberties to be eroded by federal beaurecrats and liberal hand-wringers.  Yes guns are misused and there are gun accidents, and there are murders, and there is gun crime and domestic violence.  Guns are not unique in their lethality, but guns are an expeditious tool for killing people.  The right to own and use them is not for their misuses, but to empower the people to defend their own liberty.

So, until we develop a way to empower people to defend their liberty with merely rhetoric, weapons will be required.  When and if the eventual tyrrant comes to ursurp our democracy, I'd rather have a really big gun than a pitchfork.
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Very, very well said. Thank you.

As far as firepower goes, I know a whole bunch of people that have the sort of hardware required to do battle with modern military, and I suspect that many of them would gleefully engage.

[Roland]

I fail to comprehend that statement or that line of thinking. :huh:

Revolvers are a gentleman's weapon. Every man should have one. And be well trained in it's use. He should also have a great deal of ammo for that revolver.

Please, go out and buy some much needed bullets for the one gun that you don't buy ammo for.
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Here here!

[Chesspiece_face]

http://www.wafb.com/Global/SearchResults.a...neville&x=13&y=

- Baton Rouge news broadcast of Charmaine Neville describing her experience in NOLA.

[Ninjadruid]

As I was sitting in the igloo, polishing my bison hunting rifle I was not concerned when I heard a hurricane was headed to New Orleans. I thought to myself, as battled with Fangy, my polar bear, over the hockey puck the next day, "Surely, the Americans know that they have been damning the Mississippi River for two hundred years, and that an vestigial of the buffer created by the quickly receding delta would have no impact on the storm." Fangy voiced my thoughts as he deeked past me and put a third one in the net for a hatrick, "They have got to know that if the sea rises it's going to go straight over those tiny levees, cause, man, New Orleans is a lot lower than in the 30's!"

Later that night, after lighting up a home-grown bowl with my friend, Dave, the mountie and watching some of the BBC, we were happy to see that there was an evacuation notice for New Orleans. It was obvious that they recognized the hurricane was going to do more than knock over some palm trees and flood a few dozen houses, like in Miami. Oh yes, we went to bed that night sure that the city would you know, use the city buses, the military would come in with some trucks, and they would get the people out.

The next day, Dave, the mountie, showed up and we harnessed up the dog-sled and skidoo, took our 22's and went hunting some pesky coyotes that had been harassing our elk herd. We stopped in town on the way home, had some Molsons, and gave the news a passing glance. "Guess that storm is recalling hitting New Orleans," the barkeeper said.

"Good thing they issued that evacuation notice," I commented, which was met with a general nodding of heads.

Well, then my cousin's friend's sister's neighbour's cat was going to have kittens, and this was big news up here. So we headed into the city. The drive only took a couple days, and soon enough we were sitting around my cousin's friend's sister's neighbour's tv, watching the CFL pre season.

Much to our horror, the Eskies and Stampeders were whisked away and replaced with "Refugees fill stadium" "Stadium roof collapses" "Blacks looting" "White families 'finding' supplies" "Vancouver rescue unit dispatched to help devastated New Orleans" "Vancouver search and rescue reaches NO before Americans" "Aid workers short at" "Evacuees refuse to leave" "Death" "Chaos" "Disease filled sludge" "Acid burns from being in the water" "Survivor found after seven days".

We were awestruck. Filled with horror. Deeply saddened. Frustrated. Filled with anger. Empathetic. Disgusted. Incredulous.

Never, could we imagine the richest country in the world failing it's citizens so utterly and completely. The people weren't evacuated, they were left to rot. How can you even begin to say that being armed and knowing how to use it would have helped? How can you say it is the key to upholding a democracy. Your government is in NO WAY responsible to it's people. It let them DIE.

Truly, if you think being armed gives you a voice, and this is what makes a democracy work, you have been mislead. It does not matter that your guns give you the right to speak, when you obviously have not been taught how to speak. Your government had a simple job. Rescue a city of less than a million people. It failed, and is answering to no one.

Sure, a single politician might lose his job over this, even a handful might. You think that is meaningful? You think your guns make the government answerable to the citizenry? Can you not see how wrong you are?

Now, now, the government is trying to step in and help people by fixing the city. Least that's what it looks like to Fangy and I. They want to drain the city of waste, and the decontaminate it so that people have more to go back to than a breeding ground of disease and squalor. Of course, they are running into citizens who like their guns, and whatever piece of land they happen to be sitting on. Citizens who are quoting things like your amendments to people, who from our perspective, look like they finally got their act together enough to try and help the city.

The government grants you meaningless rights like, "liberty," and you are so blinded by this that you cannot see they have taken away your most basic human rights. You have liberty, and freedom, sure, these are cheap, the government can give them away for free. They don't mean squat to someone who is drowning in an acidic slurry of contaminated seawater and human waste. Shelter and food.

Try starting with those two. Once you've got the government responsible enough to it's people to make sure everyone has those, then we can talk about guns.

Course, I'm not down there, so what do I know. Poverty at the hands of government is a foriegn concept to me, much like basic health care would be for many Americans. So is destruction on a scale like this. Looks to me like the government failed it's people in a catastrophic fashion, and if any guns should have been raised in opposition to the governement, it should have been by the citizens unaffected, but witness to the travesty taking place, the should have been demanding assistance. Not after the inital horror, not when the government finally tries to help.

[Doc]

As I was sitting in the igloo, polishing my bison hunting rifle I was not concerned when I heard a hurricane was headed to New Orleans.  I thought to myself, as battled with Fangy, my polar bear, over the hockey puck the next day, "Surely, the Americans know that they have been damning the Mississippi River for two hundred years, and that an vestigial of the buffer created by the quickly receding delta would have no impact on the storm."  Fangy voiced my thoughts as he deeked past me and put a third one in the net for a hatrick, "They have got to know that if the sea rises it's going to go straight over those tiny levees, cause, man, New Orleans is a lot lower than in the 30's!"

Later that night, after lighting up a home-grown bowl with my friend, Dave, the mountie and watching some of the BBC, we were happy to see that there was an evacuation notice for New Orleans.  It was obvious that they recognized the hurricane was going to do more than knock over some palm trees and flood a few dozen houses, like in Miami.  Oh yes, we went to bed that night sure that the city would you know, use the city buses, the military would come in with some trucks, and they would get the people out.

The next day, Dave, the mountie, showed up and we harnessed up the dog-sled and skidoo, took our 22's and went hunting some pesky coyotes that had been harassing our elk herd.  We stopped in town on the way home, had some Molsons, and gave the news a passing glance.  "Guess that storm is recalling hitting New Orleans," the barkeeper said.

"Good thing they issued that evacuation notice," I commented, which was met with a general nodding of heads.

Well, then my cousin's friend's sister's neighbour's cat was going to have kittens, and this was big news up here.  So we headed into the city.  The drive only took a couple days, and soon enough we were sitting around my cousin's friend's sister's neighbour's tv, watching the CFL pre season. 

Much to our horror, the Eskies and Stampeders were whisked away and replaced with "Refugees fill stadium"  "Stadium roof collapses"  "Blacks looting"  "White families 'finding' supplies" "Vancouver rescue unit dispatched to help devastated New Orleans"  "Vancouver search and rescue reaches NO before Americans"  "Aid workers short at"  "Evacuees refuse to leave"  "Death"  "Chaos"  "Disease filled sludge"  "Acid burns from being in the water"  "Survivor found after seven days".

We were awestruck.  Filled with horror.  Deeply saddened.  Frustrated.  Filled with anger.  Empathetic.  Disgusted.  Incredulous. 

Never, could we imagine the richest country in the world failing it's citizens so utterly and completely.  The people weren't evacuated, they were left to rot.  How can you even begin to say that being armed and knowing how to use it would have helped?  How can you say it is the key to upholding a democracy.  Your government is in NO WAY responsible to it's people.  It let them DIE.

Truly, if you think being armed gives you a voice, and this is what makes a democracy work, you have been mislead.  It does not matter that your guns give you the right to speak, when you obviously have not been taught how to speak.  Your government had a simple job.  Rescue a city of less than a million people.  It failed, and is answering to no one.

Sure, a single politician might lose his job over this, even a handful might.  You think that is meaningful?  You think your guns make the government answerable to the citizenry?  Can you not see how wrong you are?

Now, now, the government is trying to step in and help people by fixing the city.  Least that's what it looks like to Fangy and I.  They want to drain the city of waste, and the decontaminate it so that people have more to go back to than a breeding ground of disease and squalor.  Of course, they are running into citizens who like their guns, and whatever piece of land they happen to be sitting on.  Citizens who are quoting things like your amendments to people, who from our perspective, look like they finally got their act together enough to try and help the city.

The government grants you meaningless rights like, "liberty," and you are so blinded by this that you cannot see they have taken away your most basic human rights.  You have liberty, and freedom, sure, these are cheap, the government can give them away for free.  They don't mean squat to someone who is drowning in an acidic slurry of contaminated seawater and human waste.  Shelter and food. 

Try starting with those two.  Once you've got the government responsible enough to it's people to make sure everyone has those, then we can talk about guns.

Course, I'm not down there, so what do I know.  Poverty at the hands of government is a foriegn concept to me, much like basic health care would be for many Americans.  So is destruction on a scale like this.  Looks to me like the government failed it's people in a catastrophic fashion, and if any guns should have been raised in opposition to the governement, it should have been by the citizens unaffected, but witness to the travesty taking place, the should have been demanding assistance.  Not after the inital horror, not when the government finally tries to help.
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I wanna live in an igloo. That would be neat. I have been to Canada. When I went, large crowds gathered around me to hear me talk. Everybody seemed to love my slow syrupy oozing crawls like frozen molasses in January drawl. They were, with out a doubt, some of the most polite people I have ever met, even if they did say "eh" to much. (So much so that they had me doing by the time I left, and if you ever heard somebody with a bad Southern drawl say eh, you would die laughing)

I can't disagree with you on much.

[jahcs]

In general I agree with you Ninjadruid.

The disaster planning and prevention was a disaster.
The evacuation notices were issued too late, the evacuation plan wasn't worth the space it took up on the shelf and the execution of the plan was completely deplorable.
The reaction time and rescue coordination when the situation got 'a whole lot worse' was extremely lacking.

The way the gun issue in NO began is icing on the cake. It demonstrates the incompetent nature of the disaster plan. When security forces are unable to respond in an effective manner anarchy is the rule. Where anarchy rules Might Makes Right.

When electricity, food, and water get scarce people get desperate. The have-nots try to take it from the haves. Any disater plan that does not include measures to establish security for the affected area is not a plan, it is an invitation for lawlessness.

Look at the Los Angeles riots. When it became obvious the police were unable to respond effectively it became the excuse for open season on other people's property. The only thing to stop the lawbreakers from taking your stuff, to include your life, was your determination and preparation.

EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot to add this:

You have liberty, and freedom, sure, these are cheap, the government can give them away for free...  Shelter and food.  Try starting with those two.  Once you've got the government responsible enough to it's people to make sure everyone has those, then we can talk about guns.

The Government does not give away Liberty and Freedom, our citizens fought for it. Liberty and freedom cannot be given, look at Iraq. Our government has checks and balances built into it to ensure the people of our country get as much
liberty and freedom as they collectively vote for. (It's not quite that simple and portions of our government could use an overhaul... But any freedoms we've lost have been lost through laws we voted for and people we voted into office.)

Also, it is not the government's job to provide for you. If the government's job was to provide you with food and housing then the tax rate would be much higher (near 100%) and we would all live in cookie cutter tenaments and eat cookie cutter meals out of the neighborhood dining facility.

[Occhidiangela]

Story about hockey with a bear, which was fine, followed by pure BS about guns, government, and EMA plans, about which you know no more than polar bear fewments.

Dear misguided albeit well intentioned eskimo

For openers, may I suggest .243 for coyotes? :)

Your understanding of federalism, and its limitations in fact for a nation of roughly some over 300,000,000 versus executive federalism for one a tenth the size is showing.

We do not exercise identical models of, nor faith in, federalism nor government. That is by structure, and has been for us since 1789, and adjusted by blood to a more federalist, though not completely federalist, in 1861-1865. Ronald Reagan began a modest devolution of the paternalism a quarter of a century ago. Please read my opener post.

Your non sequitur regarding "make a bigger government, a better more paternalistic government, then consider if you should own guns" is completely bass ackwards reasoning within the context of the American Constitutional structure. Our government is by structure and intent limited.

EMA methodology is by nature and structure layered and phased from local to state to federal, and BY LAW, Federal Forces MAY NOT ENTER A STATE (see the posse comitatus Act) without the invitation of the Governor, nor without Congressional approval. Explicitly, any person (like a general or a Commander in Chief/President) who violates this law has personally comitted a felony.

As to the rest, elk is best cooked with thyme and rubbed sage, in my opinion.

To sum up, go back to hunting your coyotes, tending to and buggering your elk herd, and snuggling with your polar bear. When the spring thaw hits, go out, borrow a nickel, and rent a clue.

Occhi

[Doc]

Buggering elk?

You'd need a tall footstool eh?

[Occhidiangela]

Buggering elk?

You'd need a tall footstool eh?
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Or a TV show that elk like to watch, so they'd stand still . . .

Occhi

[Doc]

Or a TV show that elk like to watch, so they'd stand still . . .

Occhi
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They watch tv? Do you think they watch the tv when Jadis the White Witch is on? Er, sorry, I mean Ann Coulter.

I get bonus points for that you know.

[Occhidiangela]

They watch tv? Do you think they watch the tv when Jadis the White Witch is on? Er, sorry, I mean Ann Coulter.

I get bonus points for that you know.
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Oh, yes indeed, two points for your tagging of Ann, the White *itch. :D

The last time Shill Center was on, I refer of course to Hannity and Combes, I half expected to see a dozen flying monkees to arrive to serve Her Shrillness. Isn't she the one who moans "Oh, Joe McCarthy, Oh, Joe McCarthy!" when in the throes of passion?

I finally banned Shill Center from my house, and I have also banned Communist News Newtowk (CNN) from our TV. Until the draw and quarter Aaron Brown, live on CNN, they get no more viewing from me. :P

CSPAN still gets the nod. If Faux News or that other blather invades my home before I reconginze the transgression, I click back to either the Weather Channel or Sports Center, or the shopping network. Ya know, shows you can believe . . . :P

Occhi

[Minionman]

Oh, yes indeed, two points for your tagging of Ann, the White *itch.  :D 

The last time Shill Center was on, I refer of course to Hannity and Combes, I half expected to see a dozen flying monkees to arrive to serve Her Shrillness.  Isn't she the one who moans "Oh, Joe McCarthy, Oh, Joe McCarthy!" when in the throes of passion? 

I finally banned Shill Center from my house, and I have also banned Communist News Newtowk (CNN) from our TV.  CSPAN still gets the nod.  If Faux News or that other blather invades my home before I reconginze the transgression, I click back to either the Weather Channel or Sports Center, or the shopping network.  Ya  know, shows you can believe . . .  :P

Occhi
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Just watch Return of the King. It has a lot of good action, interesting looking areas, good music, and I'm sure you can think of others, than go look at wikipedia for awhile. (Or some other news thing that kind of works)

[kandrathe]

Please, go out and buy some much needed bullets for the one gun that you don't buy ammo for.
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Yeah, what Doc said. It's not a toy so don't treat it like one. Twirling guns around is a Hollywood western stunt, same as twirling ropes around.

[Rhydderch Hael]

Just watch Return of the King.  It has a lot of good action, interesting looking areas, good music, and I'm sure you can think of others, than go look at wikipedia for awhile.  (Or some other news thing that kind of works)
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Too much deus ex machina in that movie (Army of the Dead at Pellenor and the frickin' eagles who couldn't be arsed to intervene until the last battle). And too cheap an exchange with the Mouth of Sauron (striking down a blind guy from behind? Way to keep your cool, Aragorn).

[Minionman]

Too much deus ex machina in that movie (Army of the Dead at Pellenor and the frickin' eagles who couldn't be arsed to intervene until the last battle). And too cheap an exchange with the Mouth of Sauron (striking down a blind guy from behind? Way to keep your cool, Aragorn).
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true. And there are the denethor bits which are kind of goofy. The action cancels everything out.

[kandrathe]

... Poverty at the hands of government is a foriegn concept to me, much like basic health care would be for many Americans.  ...
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Maybe you should look around more.

Families get $165 a month,” Manuel says, referring to the high percentage of Native people on social assistance. “They are the ones ­ not the chiefs -- who are dependent on hunting. More tourism is going to take food off their tables and they are going to end up on Hastings [the heart of Vancouver drug district] because that’s what happens when you force Indian people off their land.”

Poverty is worse than having little or no money. It includes the loss of self-respect, of personal freedom, and of physical and mental health. It makes access to the community difficult, and it is a humiliating experience of powerlessness. There is much to admire in the courage and endurance of the millions of Canadians who carry this burden with dignity and grim determination.  More than five million Canadians, or 17.9 %, were living below the poverty line in 1996. These numbers underestimate the number of poor Canadians because they do not include Aboriginal people on reserves, residents of the Yukon and Northwest Territories, and people who live in institutions.  In 1996, child poverty reached 20.9 %, a 17-year peak. 1.4 million Canadian children, one in five, live in poverty.  61% of single mothers live in poverty.  Since 1989 the number of food banks has tripled and the proportion of the population relying on them has doubled.  One in five Canadians over 65 live below the poverty line. The risk of poverty is greatest for women who live alone.  The poverty rate for individuals with no family is 40.2%. If you're young and single, the rate jumps to 63.7%.  The richest fifth of Canadians receives close to one half of all the income in Canada while the poorest fifth receive just 3.1%.  1.4 million Canadians, or 8.4 % of the population, are unemployed. 

Now drop a natural disaster in the middle of Montreal and see how well your Disaster preparedness works out. Who gets saved? How many poor people freeze each year in your urban slums?

[ShadowHM]

Maybe you should look around more.
Now drop a natural disaster in the middle of Montreal and see how well your Disaster preparedness works out.  Who gets saved?  How many poor people freeze each year in your urban slums?
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I cannot speak for Montreal. I do know that, in the past, disaster response in the Toronto area did work well.

On the evening of November 10, 1979, a Canadian Pacific train lost one of its wheels, resulting in the derailment of 24 cars. Included in these cars were six dangerous ingredients: propane, caustic soda, styrene, fibreglass insulation and chlorine. These flammable liquids and vapours caused a massive explosion that could be seen more than 100 kilometres away.

Evacuations began two hours after the explosion. In total, 218,000 residents had been asked to leave their homes. It was almost a week before many would return home. With no fatalities or serious injuries, many considered the derailment the "Mississauga Miracle."

The city immediately used Transit buses to conduct evacuations. Many had nowhere to go, and schools and community centres were utilized. The two evacuees that I did know fared better than that.


Would we fare as well now? I don't know. I do know that there are contingency plans in place. But that is not the same thing as actually following through with them in flawless execution, as occurred back in 1979.

As to death by freezing, I am sorry to have to report that indeed, there are annual deaths here by freezing - despite the presence of free hostels for the homeless, there are still those who eschew them, for reasons that vary from good to groundless. It is illegal here to deny heat to anyone who has a domicile. The utility companies cannot cut anyone off during the winter months.

Now, as to what I perceive as the main thrust of your argument: Our backyards are in fact not clean. There is poverty here, and mis-management of government resources here too. Surely this does not mean the the likes of Ninjadruid have no right to comment on problems they see elsewhere?

[Occhidiangela]

Evacuations began two hours after the explosion. In total, 218,000 residents had been asked to leave their homes. It was almost a week before many would return home. With no fatalities or serious injuries, many considered the derailment the "Mississauga Miracle."

The city immediately used Transit buses to conduct evacuations.  Many had nowhere to go, and schools and community centres were utilized.  The two evacuees that I did know fared better than that. 
Would we fare as well now?  I don't know.  I do know that there are contingency plans in place.  But that is not the same thing as actually following through with them in flawless execution, as occurred back in 1979.

Brilliant! Get this on the Guinness commercial, soon! :) How about that, city governments can have and execute emergency evac plans. That's great!

*Forwards Shadow's post to Mayor of NO . . .* OOPS, too late!!!

Now, as to what I perceive as the main thrust of your argument:  Our backyards are in fact not clean.    There is poverty here, and mis-management of government resources here too.    Surely this does not mean the the likes of Ninjadruid have no right to comment on problems they see elsewhere?
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Ninja may comment all he likes, so long as he is willing to handle the heat when he spouts BS: which I think he can. Cold winters take people made of stronger stuff to survive . . . ;)

Occhi

[Archon_Wing]

Now, as to what I perceive as the main thrust of your argument:  Our backyards are in fact not clean.    There is poverty here, and mis-management of government resources here too.    Surely this does not mean the the likes of Ninjadruid have no right to comment on problems they see elsewhere?
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Criticism can be a good thing, but his carried rather smug overtones, along the lines of AMERICA HS POOR PPL LOL OWND!!!!111

Edit: Pointing out this --> "Poverty at the hands of government is a foriegn concept to me, much like basic health care would be for many Americans. So is destruction on a scale like this." (I sincerely apologize that we forgot to use that hurricane shielding machine.)

I do not think I am the only person who is a US citizen that is annoyed by other people ignorant of the situation we are in and act all high and mighty. They somehow act as if their country and government are somehow morally superior. Essentialy their posts generally consist of saying that only such barbrasm and horrors could happen in America and what the hell is wrong with us while insuating their own homeland is a paradise devoid of poverty and suffering.

It is no suprise that certain people's mindless rambles build up and drives tempers short. If this disaster hadn't driven some of us to wit's end already.