Guns, Butter, and Led Zepplin

[Olon97]

In other words, what the media will report as a fact, and what some fools will assert as "known" is a matter of ongoing study and a lot of hard work on the part of some smart, industrious, and intellectually curious scientists.

Media reporting of climate science (and environmental science) in general is deplorable. Either they present new findings as the de-facto truth, or interpret any amount of uncertainty/disagreement as an equally valid "counterpoint" to solid research (which very often is quite candid about its own limitations).

Science is not a soccer game. Finding one scientist whose research implies X, and another scientist whose research implies Y does not mean a tied score. Especially when one is independently funded, nobel laureate, unassailable in peer review, etc. and the other works for a community college and receieves funds/ speaker fees from a political slanted organization. I've seen far too many "news" articles that present such disparate sources with equal weight in the point-counterpoint format.

That said, compared to the human impact on global warming debate (too big of a tangent to go on here), the effect of a warming climate change (and human ability to influence such phenomenon) and hurricanes is certainly not a well established & widely supported link. I don't think you'll find a single legitimate climate scientist who will tie the current administration's environmental policies to the effects of Katherine. Simple matter of residence times and the delays between cause and effect in these models.

[whyBish]

and I don't think we should discuss on the lounge how we want to kill other people.
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No, just discuss what we are going to do with their sheep, and the ideal method of disposing corpses :blink:

[whyBish]

Our dog is as lethal as a beanie baby.  :P

Occhi
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A toxic, choking hazard? :P

[Occhidiangela]

No, just discuss what we are going to do with their sheep, and the ideal method of disposing corpses  :blink:
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Well, I know what I won't do with a sheep, and am glad I am not in the corpse disposal business. Once you have identified a dead body, and been in a morgue . . . ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

Occhi

[kandrathe]

It is a common courtesy to announce your intentions before discharging your firearm at another person. Something like "Get out of my house you epithet or I'll expletive your anatomy with my expletive shotgun." Of course, if they respond with gun fire or refuse to vacate the area, it is understood that excessive force will be employed. I guess it goes back to the early days of this country. Before there was such a thing as Justice, Law & Order, there was Colt, Smith & Wesson.

[Doc]

Forced evacs at gunpoint, and citizens are being stripped of arms.

Mother#$%&ers. I am so pissed. Police are raiding private residences with no warrants doing search and removal of residents against their will. And some of these removals are in parts of the city that are in no danger at all.

Eminant domain has already reared it's ugly head... Intentions have been announced to seize many of the properties for the rebuilding effort.

Grrr.

[Occhidiangela]

Forced evacs at gunpoint, and citizens are being stripped of arms.

Mother#$%&ers. I am so pissed. Police are raiding private residences with no warrants doing search and removal of residents against their will. And some of these removals are in parts of the city that are in no danger at all.

Eminant domain has already reared it's ugly head... Intentions have been announced to seize many of the properties for the rebuilding effort.

Grrr.
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Here's a grim thought: when word of this gets out, particularly the arms confiscation, it could well incite yet another "OKC bombing" sort of acton.

There are many sorts of armed malcontents, and they aren't all inner city gang members. What did Pogo say, so infamously?

"We have met the enemy and he is us."

Occhi

[wundergore]

Here's a grim thought: when word of this gets out, particularly the arms confiscation, it could well incite yet another "OKC bombing" sort of acton.

There are many sorts of armed malcontents, and they aren't all inner city gang members.  What did Pogo say, so infamously?

"We have met the enemy and he is us."

Occhi
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the area under martial law? That would mean that the Constitution is suspended and therefore they no longer have the right to bear arms under the Second Amendment. As are all their other rights under said Constitution (unreasonable search and seizure, speedy trial, etc). Is that correct? It's been a while since I was in a poly sci class......

I'm not saying what they are doing is right (far from it), but if they ARE under martial law their "rights" are extremely limited. It doesn't matter if you are a gang banger or a little old lady who goes to church every Sunday.

W>

[kandrathe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the area under martial law?  That would mean that the Constitution is suspended and therefore they no longer have the right to bear arms under the Second Amendment.  As are all their other rights under said Constitution (unreasonable search and seizure, speedy trial, etc).  Is that correct?  It's been a while since I was in a poly sci class......

I'm not saying what they are doing is right (far from it), but if they ARE under martial law their "rights" are extremely limited.  It doesn't matter if you are a gang banger or a little old lady who goes to church every Sunday.

W>
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They are not under "Martial Law" which is where the US Army or State's National guard sieze control of the area. As far as I've heard the order was from the Mayor of New Orleans who has ordered his police force to evacuate some zones by force if neccesary. I don't know what right the police have to seize weapons unless the weapons are illegal, or used in an illegal way. How did the guns get seized if they were not in view of the police? They certainly are not searching homes for weapons. It might also have been the same idiot who was shooting at relief helicopters.

[Doc]

They are not under "Martial Law" which is where the US Army or State's National guard sieze control of the area.  As far as I've heard the order was from the Mayor of New Orleans who has ordered his police force to evacuate some zones by force if neccesary.  I don't know what right the police have to seize weapons unless the weapons are illegal, or used in an illegal way.  How did the guns get seized if they were not in view of the police?  They certainly are not searching homes for weapons.  It might also have been the same idiot who was shooting at relief helicopters.
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Honore, I think that's his name, has refused to allow his own troops to take part in the search and removal of citizens and the stripping of arms. HE WANTS RESPONSIBLE ARMED CITIZENS. They are keeping order.

http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx.../honore909

This covers only a very small part of the struggle between the mayor and the Ragin Cajun.

And yes, they are stripping all citizens of private arms. This is an issued order by the police force.

You know... I have half a mind to go to Nawlins my self and start hunting me some Jack Booted Nazi Thugs. I hope some well armed and well informed citizen fires a few steel jacketed slugs right through their flimsy second hand flak jackets. I hope one of them gets a facefull of shotgun when illegally going through somebody's front door.

I am so pissed I can't even think straight.

I am livid at some of the things I have been hearing. I have live radio feeds from police scanners and such. It's infuriating.

[Doc]

Honore, I think that's his name, has refused to allow his own troops to take part in the search and removal of citizens and the stripping of arms. HE WANTS RESPONSIBLE ARMED CITIZENS. They are keeping order.

http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx.../honore909

This covers only a very small part of the struggle between the mayor and the Ragin Cajun.

And yes, they are stripping all citizens of private arms. This is an issued order by the police force.

You know... I have half a mind to go to Nawlins my self and start hunting me some Jack Booted Nazi Thugs. I hope some well armed and well informed citizen fires a few steel jacketed slugs right through their flimsy second hand flak jackets. I hope one of them gets a facefull of shotgun when illegally going through somebody's front door.

I am so pissed I can't even think straight.

I am livid at some of the things I have been hearing. I have live radio feeds from police scanners and such. It's infuriating.
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Oh, forgot to add. The police could very well start a confrontation with the military. The guy in charge said that he would give orders and take matters in to his own hands if the military keeps giving food and water to the holdouts that were ordered to leave. He wants a complete halt to food and water handouts to the holed up residents. Mother#$%&er. What's he going to do? Start a battle in the streets with the armed forces?

What sort of #$%&ups do we have running the show down there? What the hell is going on with my country? Why do I feel so disgraced and ashamed right now? This is low. This is like the police force of Alabama taking action against the national guard when the guard came in to strong arm the schools in to cooperating.

How can there be this sort of devide in our own forces? They should both be on the same side. This is madness.

This should have been an edit of the above post. I am so pissed, I can't even post right. My apologies.

[Doc]

Waters were receding across this flood-beaten city today as police officers began confiscating weapons, including legally registered firearms, from civilians in preparation for a mass forced evacuation of the residents still living here.

No civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns, or other firearms, said P. Edwin Compass, the superintendent of police. "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons," he said.

But that order apparently does not apply to the hundreds of security guards whom businesses and some wealthy individuals have hired to protect their property. The guards, who are civilians working for private security firms like Blackwater, are openly carrying M-16's and other assault rifles. Mr. Compass said he was aware of the private guards, but that the police had no plans to make them give up their weapons.

Remember this little old bit of law? A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Nearly two weeks after the floods began, New Orleans has turned into an armed camp, patrolled by thousands of local, state, and federal law enforcement officers, as well as National Guard troops and active-duty soldiers. While armed looters roamed unchecked last week, the city is now calm. No arrests were made on Wednesday night or this morning, and police received only 10 calls for service, a police spokesman said.

The city's slow recovery is continuing on other fronts as well, local officials said at a press conference late this morning. Pumping stations are now operating across much of the city, and many taps and fire hydrants have water pressure. Also, tests have shown no evidence of cholera or other dangerous diseases in flooded areas, though health officials have said the waters contain levels of E. coli bacteria and lead 10 times higher than what is considered safe.

Efforts to recover corpses have also started, although only a handful of bodies have been recovered so far.

You can read more in the New York Post. Or Times. I forget which one.

This is insanity people. Something simply must be done.

[jahcs]

It sounds like that Police Chief needs to be forcibly "evacuated" from the area.

He disappeared for several days after the hurricane and now wants to act like he knows what to do. He should have been one of the first people to start taking charge of the situation after the storm blew through. His face should have been on t.v. and his voice on the radio telling the citizens of NO and surrounding areas what to do. He should have been directing his police force from a central command area. From most of the reports I have heard from the week after the storm he wasn't even on the radar and most of his officers hadn't recieved any direction from Headquarters.

Withholding food and water? This isn't a siege. They are still people. The folks that remain should be informed of the risks of staying, told that outside help may not be available in the future, and that they can be evacuated now. If they stay, give them a "no whining card" and give them help when you are able.

If some idiot with a firearm starts breaking the law with it, take him down. Riding roughshod over the Constitution and "relocating" people and confiscating private property is not proper.

If I am deployed down there I with take my Oath of Service with me:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

The Police Chief is not in my Chain of Command. He can suck an egg while our Armed Forces help people.

[Roland]

Forced evacs at gunpoint, and citizens are being stripped of arms.

Mother#$%&ers. I am so pissed. Police are raiding private residences with no warrants doing search and removal of residents against their will. And some of these removals are in parts of the city that are in no danger at all.

Eminant domain has already reared it's ugly head... Intentions have been announced to seize many of the properties for the rebuilding effort.

Grrr.
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People shot at the aid relief workers. People are setting houses on fire just to watch them burn because of gas leaks. People may very well die in their homes do to improper resources for survival. Forced removal was the only option, so forced removal it is.

As for removal of their arms, well no kidding. What good is trying to get them out if they end up shooting at you, AGAIN?

As for the eminant domain bit... well, I don't know anything about that, so I won't go into it, but it sounds pretty shady to me. Care to enlighten us with some links as to articles?

[Roland]

Oh, forgot to add. The police could very well start a confrontation with the military. The guy in charge said that he would give orders and take matters in to his own hands if the military keeps giving food and water to the holdouts that were ordered to leave. He wants a complete halt to food and water handouts to the holed up residents. Mother#$%&er. What's he going to do? Start a battle in the streets with the armed forces?

What sort of #$%&ups do we have running the show down there? What the hell is going on with my country? Why do I feel so disgraced and ashamed right now? This is low. This is like the police force of Alabama taking action against the national guard when the guard came in to strong arm the schools in to cooperating.

How can there be this sort of devide in our own forces? They should both be on the same side. This is madness.

This should have been an edit of the above post. I am so pissed, I can't even post right. My apologies.
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See, this is the sort of thing I haven't heard up north here. Do you have any links to articles on this, or has it not hit the news yet?

This whole deal is sounding more shady by the minute. I'm really starting to wonder about it all too, now. Thanks for at least a little insight Doc.

[Doc]

CLICK.

That's just one link.

I posted another way up there in the thread already.

What is being done is illegal, unconstitutional, and just plain wrong. Several millitia groups I know of are considering a bold move... Going to NO and enforcing the constitutional right to bear arms in the form of an armed uprising. I doubt it would actually happen, but it would be most interesting if it did. And if such an uprising really did take place, rather than talk, I do believe I would involve my self in it. This is my home. While my feelings my turn to anger and outrage and I might talk now and then of moving to Canada, this is my home. And I would do anything, and I mean anything to protect what this nation should stand for. What is going on in NO is WRONG. And something should be done about it.

Honore has done the right thing and has refused to become involved in the theft of the weapons. Yes, THEFT. These are legal firearms. These are registered firearms. These people are being stripped of their right to bear arms, defend their own property, and protect their own better interests.

To really know what is going on, one must listen to the various military and police band scanners. For legal reasons, I can not post how to access the secure communication lines here on the Lounge. I think that would be wrong. The public access available ones hold some interesting chatter, but the private secure bands are so much more interesting, like police giving orders to open fire on looters... Families... CHILDREN hunting for food and water, with orders like "kill those n****rs." This was taking place before established relief networks were set up. The Red Cross has been expressly forbidden from going in to New Orleans. And news reporters are forbidden from accessing certain parts of the city. They are already covering up something... Lots of things. The murders and killings and corpses that died not by water but by bullets.

http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html

I heard over the scanners that there were orders to shoot on sight anybody affiliated with Red Cross.

I love this little snippit right here. "The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city."

Word is coming out that they want people to leave so they can institute the eminant domain seizures. When they begin the cleanup, they can just bulldoze freely with nobody making any fuss. If people are their, people can resist the "clean up efforts." People can defend their homes, their livelyhoods, their businesses.

Think of all those businesses. All those McDonalds and Burgerkings and gas stations. All those malls, stores, and commercial developments. All of those will have to be rebuilt. And all those holdouts that have homes, or their own private businesses, in prime locations, what do you think is going to happen to them? All those Walmarts wanting prime locations that had to make due all these years with what ever locations they could secure... There is going to be a massive real estate boom in NO.

This is going to be the worst case of land grabbing and all out theft this nation has ever seen. Word has it that it that these private "security companies" mercenaries are going in to NO and setting fire to various establishments in certain locations to simply remove them. The private "security companies" are allowed to keep their weapons. A lot of these private "security companies" arm their security with fully automatic M16s and all sorts of high grade military equipment.

Some of the militia groups in NO that hunkered down and lasted through the storm are reporting that great efforts are being taken to completely destroy the city's records... Reports of fires and destructions of computer data centers, paperwork, deeds, as well as the blueprints for the city it self, all of the underground conduits, sewers, pumpworks, phone, electrical, etc. If all these things are destroyed, some are guessing about these actions, then everything will have to be destroyed so they can rebuild the infrastructure. Giving them a lot more reason to simply seize everything and take it away from private citizens.

The news is being heavily censored. There is so much they are not reporting. Reporters in NO are being beaten up, and having their cameras taken away. Film is being destroyed. Several reporters have gone missing.

This is madness.

[Chesspiece_face]

http://static2.podcatch.com/blogs/gems/sne...erviewNagin.mp3

- Mayor of NO in a radio interview.

Edit: this was over a week ago. i believe it was originally aired/recorded on sept. 1 or 2nd.

Edit 2: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?s.../05/155209

Links and transcript of DemocracyNow interview with New Orleans activist Malik Rahim

[Doc]

http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlDC/tele...rmath_25752.asp

Oh my.

[Occhidiangela]

Several millitia groups I know of are considering a bold move... Going to NO and enforcing the constitutional right to bear arms in the form of an armed uprising. I doubt it would actually happen, but it would be most interesting if it did.

Doc, if you know of it, that means their Operational Security is already breached, such a move done as anything other than a surprise would be fairly easily checked. Now, getting news coverage of the checking action might be political dynamite. <_<

And if such an uprising really did take place, rather than talk, I do believe I would involve my self in it. This is my home.

South Carolina, got it. :blink:

What is going on in NO is WRONG. And something should be done about it.

My sympaties are with you, my gut feel that now is time for armed insurrection? No.

These are legal firearms. These are registered firearms. These people are being stripped of their right to bear arms, defend their own property, and protect their own better interests.

Yep.

Families... CHILDREN hunting for food and water, with orders like "kill those n****rs." This was taking place before established relief networks were set up.

Hmmm. Appreciate, please, my skepticism on this charge?

The Red Cross has been expressly forbidden from going in to New Orleans.

Doc, they are already there. What am I missing here?

And news reporters are forbidden from accessing certain parts of the city.

Last I heard, and this is by no means definitive, the body collection effort has been designated "no reporters" to prevent the first time someone sees their dearly departed loved on being pulled, bloated and disgusting, from under a pile of wreckage on TV. You know the ^%!!@ media has not taste . . . no couth. I may me in error, however.

They are already covering up something... Lots of things. The murders and killings and corpses that died not by water but by bullets.

The persons with an agenda for that cover up would be

NO mayor
NO police chief
LA governor

http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html

I heard over the scanners that there were orders to shoot on sight anybody affiliated with Red Cross.

Doc, my credulity is being stretcd. I know a little more about Rules of Engagement than the average bear.

"The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city."

That sort of makes sense . . . but it also doesn't.

Word is coming out that they want people to leave so they can institute the eminant domain seizures. hen they begin the cleanup, they can just bulldoze freely with nobody making any fuss. f people are their, people can resist the "clean up efforts." People can defend their homes, their livelyhoods, their businesses.

Plausible. The ACLU needs to get out of their air conditioned offices and get their asses down to NO. Odds of those moral cowards doing that? Low.

Think of all those businesses. All those McDonalds and Burgerkings and gas stations. All those malls, stores, and commercial developments. All of those will have to be rebuilt. And all those holdouts that have homes, or their own private businesses, in prime locations, what do you think is going to happen to them? All those Walmarts wanting prime locations that had to make due all these years with what ever locations they could secure... There is going to be a massive real estate boom in NO.

Since impoverished folk rarely own their own homes, perhaps the landlords will welcome getting rid of the properties . . . which leaves how many tens of thousands completely ska-rooed? Hmmmmmmmm. That smells to high heaven.

This is going to be the worst case of land grabbing and all out theft this nation has ever seen. Word has it that it that these private "security companies" mercenaries are going in to NO and setting fire to various establishments in certain locations to simply remove them. The private "security companies" are allowed to keep their weapons. A lot of these private "security companies" arm their security with fully automatic M16s and all sorts of high grade military equipment.

OK, rumor, but not beyond comprehension for a locale as filthy in graft and corruption as New Orleans.

Some of the militia groups in NO that hunkered down and lasted through the storm are reporting that great efforts are being taken to completely destroy the city's records.

OK, how do they collect this information? Think on that, for a moment.

.. Reports of fires and destructions of computer data centers, paperwork, deeds, as well as the blueprints for the city it self, all of the underground conduits, sewers, pumpworks, phone, electrical, etc. If all these things are destroyed, some are guessing about these actions, then everything will have to be destroyed so they can rebuild the infrastructure. Giving them a lot more reason to simply seize everything and take it away from private citizens.

Plausible.

The news is being heavily censored. There is so much they are not reporting. Reporters in NO are being beaten up, and having their cameras taken away. Film is being destroyed. Several reporters have gone missing.

That comes with the badge out of trying to make your name at a disaster. Plenty of media folk have made this tragedy their payday, making money out of human misery. Looks like the price is being exacted, if what you report is true.

There is risk, there is no entitlement.

This is madness.

True enough.

Occhi

[Doc]

Occhi, this country is my home. Don't pick nits.

Two, the Red Cross is NOT in New Orleans. Read the press release. You didn't bother clicking the link to the Red Cross? Red Cross is all over other areas, but they are expressly forbidden to enter New Orleans. And they are pretty upset about it.

People know about the destruction and the burning of city files and records because they have seen it. Somebody even talked about it on TV last night. Reports started coming out about acts of distruction over HAM radio and other means of communications.

FEMA has been going around and sabotoging private antennas and radio communications towers. Unplugging them. Taking them down. MANY people have complained about this. They are busy trying to shut down means of communications outside of government control. Do a little searching. Many of the smaller local rescue services in and around NO found their communications completely cut.

There is so much crap going on that it is impossible to even list it all here.

You are a smart fella. Use your head. Open your eyes.