Guns, Butter, and Led Zepplin

[eppie]

Occhi, as far as shooting looters goes, do you favour the 22 because it's a varmint slayer, or do you go for the Human Hamburger Cannon?
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Maybe it is because I'm dutch, but my main concern is reparing levees.

[Doc]

Maybe it is because I'm dutch, but my main concern is reparing levees.
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Option three. Stick your finger in a dyke.

THAT IS NOT MEANT HOW IT SOUNDS!

GAH!

I hate language.

[jahcs]

I just have a problem with people that like to say (as much as possible) that for something done to them they will start shooting people, you obviously don't mean it so bad, but that kind of talk serves no purpose, nor does it help in ending conflicts.

Neither does a pissing contest on an internet forum... And I know it's the pot calling the kettle black on this one.

And of course guns are not the issue, but don't judge to quick who is a criminal and who isn't. Somebody who shoots at aid workers has to imagine he can be shot for this (but these guys I believe were all junks who needed their heroine...and then you get crazy.....these people are also likely not scared of you threathening them, because they don't think straight anymore.

Heroin junkies probably know the aid workers do not have heroin for sale, but who knows, a few might.

People that loot shops because they need food and drink should not get shot.

Taking food, water, diapers, etc. is excuseable in times like this. Taking TV sets, jewelry, alcohol, video games, etc. is LOOTING. Doc, I know you're right, to a point, but this is how my family and I view this, color isn't the issue for us.

And those three and a half people that were going around looting houses for valuable are almost not worth mentioning.

It was far more than three and a half people and it is worth mentioning because this is exactly the type of folk Occhi was reffering to.

But when somebody just starts stating that when somebody is breaking in to his house he will shoot them, it says more about the person itsself.  Looting and killing are different things....killing is worse......and who will tell (when the police arrives) if the people you shot were looting....are that you are some guncraze lunatic that likes to kill people.

Someone breaking into your house is a lot different than someone knocking on your door to see if you can spare any extra food or water. In dire times like this when nobody is home and all they take from the home is essentials can be forgiven.

...I don't think we should discuss on the lounge how we want to kill other people.

It was more of a statement that he would defend himself.

[kandrathe]

Watching the news certainly reinforces that stereotype. I don't buy the whole racism angle here -- to me if you break into a store to grab anything you are a looter. I just don't hold anything against someone who either lost their provisions, or didn't have the common sense to stock up.

Really, anyone with any sense, the ability to walk, and the transportation means left town. Being a country boy, the thought of riding out the storm with 10,000 people in the Super dome gives me the heebie jeebies. I can hardly stand spending 2-3 hours jostling in and out of a place like that for a ball game. Where I grew up, if there were more than a few dozen people per square mile, we felt crowded. The company I work for has an extensive operation in Mobile (about 1000 people), and we packed everyone up who would go and flew them to St. Louis Wednesday and Thursday.

Actually, I figured New orleans was a total disaster area so why not let the idiotic looters walking off with TV's then figure out how to get power for them or how to eat them. I've spent plenty of time in New Orleans and I've actually walked on the levee that broke after the flood in May 1995. I told my co-workers on Monday morning that the levee's would not hold, and New Oreleans would flood again. Everyone whom I've talked to in New Orleans for years has had little faith in the levee's ability in protecting them from this very catastrophe, so it shouldn't be much of a shock.

[rant]
I've never been through a hurricane, but I have lived through a few tornado's, and flash floods. I've seen first hand what high speed wind driven projetiles can do to property and livestock. I don't understand the ignorant bravado that some people have in insisting on staying put rather than saving their own lives. In some ways too, I think the press made hay on the "supposed suffering" at the Superdome and the Convention Center. These people had some food, they had some shelter and if they had pulled together they would have been much better off. Meanwhile, off in the countryside or in the neighborhoods people were (and maybe still are) suffering and dying out of the camera's view.
[/rant]

[Doc]

A hell of a long time ago, the government started giving farmers money to not grow food. This put an uncounted number of black folks out of work. They went and they crammed in to cities. The government created a welfare state for these folk. Created ghettos. Projects. And then they intentionally sabotoged the school systems in these places to deliver substandard education. The system flooded these ghettos with pawn shops and liquor stores. And a system was created where there was just enough to scrape by, but never get out. Each generation following was worse than the one before. With bad schools, they never had a chance to get good education. They never got a fair shake. There was either welfare if you were an honest sort, along with whatever crappy job you might be able to find, but you would never get the wages you deserve because of your skin colour. If you was dishonest, there was drugs and crime. So these ghettos became vipers nests. A breeding ground for all kinds of bad things in our society. It created a system of total dependance because of the conditions. They depend on everything. They do not go to good schools. Most schools in the ghettos don't even offer driver's education... The level of dependence generated is total. These poor depend on public transportation like trolleys and buses. They couldn't just hop in a car and leave. I mean, everything in their lives is based on government control. Heck, the hurricane came at the end of the month, when most of them were broke. No cash. At all. No means of escape.

And before any of you say anything, like, why don't they improve their lives, or why do they live like that, or anything stupid like that, you have no idea what it's like, how opressive the system is, or how carefully crafted the system is to actually hold these people back. None of you have any right to judge or say how you think it ought to be, this is how it is. It's a dirty, nasty, horrible thing that everybody tries to ignore. Now, because of circumstance, it can't be. Failure is total.

This storm destroyed more than a city. It wrecked a ghetto. A complete system failure with people so indoctrinated and controlled that most are incapable of thinking independant thought for themselves. They did what the government told them to do, and trusted in that.

It's a very sad thing to watch and I have worried that this sort of breakdown was coming someday.

[Occhidiangela]

Of course I got it, what do you keep me for?
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Well, you have just dug yourself a nice, deep hole. If you turn it upside down, it will make a nice, dirty, Ivory Tower. May you enjoy the view from up there once you get the hole turned upside down.

If you prepare for the worst, not much will get by you. If you assume the best, you will get a lot of ugly surprises. The American South is most definitely NOT the Netherlands. I make my plans based on the conditions as I understand them to be, not as I wish they were.

Cheers

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

Occhi, as far as shooting looters goes, do you favour the 22 because it's a varmint slayer, or do you go for the Human Hamburger Cannon?
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I have shotgun, revolver, Mini-14, 7mm mag deer rifle. A Glock .40 cal is on order. If one or all of those don't cut the mustard, I am either dead, most likely, or down to baseball bats and shovels, kitchen knives and such.

Our dog is as lethal as a beanie baby. :P

Occhi

[Doc]

I have shotgun, revolver, Mini-14, 7mm mag deer rifle.  A Glock .40 cal is on order.  If one or all of those don't cut the mustard, I am either dead, most likely, or down to baseball bats and shovels, kitchen knives and such.

Our dog is as lethal as a beanie baby.  :P

Occhi
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I like a good 40. You will be pleased with the Glock, no doubt. It's a real ripper. A man stopper.

[Occhidiangela]

A hell of a long time ago, the government started giving farmers money to not grow food. This put an uncounted number of black folks out of work. They went and they crammed in to cities.

This storm destroyed more than a city. It wrecked a ghetto. A complete system failure with people so indoctrinated and controlled that most are incapable of thinking independant thought for themselves. They did what the government told them to do, and trusted in that.

It's a very sad thing to watch and I have worried that this sort of breakdown was coming someday.
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Your cause and effect chain of history is an interesting take on the topic of urban blight, both material and spiritual, but I'll toss a few grounders your way.

1. Some people do get out

2. The crime of the civil rights era and the great society is that, for one reason or another, the urban schools were left, far too often, to rot. The voucher system was a cost effective way of doing even less for public schools, whose rot was, I guess, diagnosed as terminal. So, as a society, we gave up. That, after the aims and goals of the civil rights initiatives post WW-II is the profound human tragedy.

3. A ghetto is a state of mind. Robert Kaplan found very poor people in Turkey when he traveled there, but their inner pride was evidenced in how clean they kept their very meagre housing.

4. Swamp castle and New Orleans. Somehow, for a place that was infamous for the occasional display of huge tracts of land, the problem of building another castle on that swamp will boil down to a matter of human spirit.

5. This ain't just New Orleans' problem, in the big scheme of things. The profound economic impact of New Orleans not being up 100% as a fuel terminal and port of embarcation for all kinds of products, from the heartland's,won't be felt for another few months. But it will be felt.

New Orleans was/is no sleepy little seaside town, she's a major commercial center.

Occhi

[kandrathe]

...
None of you have any right to judge or say how you think it ought to be, this is how it is. It's a dirty, nasty, horrible thing that everybody tries to ignore. Now, because of circumstance, it can't be. Failure is total.  This storm destroyed more than a city. It wrecked a ghetto. A complete system failure with people so indoctrinated and controlled that most are incapable of thinking independant thought for themselves. They did what the government told them to do, and trusted in that.
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You're right. And, yet, I don't want you to be right. I have many friends with many hues to their skins from around US and the world. And truthfully, I still know I'm not color blind, even though I would like to be -- I still need to deliberatly scrutinize my thoughts (instilled in me by my racist blue collar parents). I'm not the white man you are angry with. In my past I've had to fight racism directly on behalf of the people whom I've employed to get them a chance to demonstrate their skills, in order to earn a living. But truthfully Doc, in my life, I haven't seen many people from the ghetto climb high enough for someone like me to help them.

The situation you describe requires two sides, as hopeless as it seems, they still need to submit to the yoke of the system. The exploited and the exploiters. A system designed to milk and herd the disadvantaged, which is not limited to blacks btw, but to anyone who can be snared and enslaved into it. Something needs to change in the ghetto to enable and encourage young people to make a different life, free from that yoke of exploitation you see. It's not like Washington doesn't have their thumb on us all, but for people like me it's not to the extent that you describe.

I don't know what the answer is, but all I know is that for me when I was destitute, and homeless, and without hope I turned to my family which is the only group of people I would ever depend on. The government has done little for me or to me and mine that I liked. I wouldn't turn down the kindness of strangers, but really, I don't understand anyone who would depend on, or believe in something as heartless and self serving as a government.

[Doc]

Your cause and effect chain of history is an interesting take on the topic of urban blight, both material and spiritual, but I'll toss a few grounders your way.

1.  Some people do get out

2.  The crime of the civil rights era and the great society is that, for one reason or another, the urban schools were left, far too often, to rot.  The voucher system was a cost effective way of doing even less for public schools, whose rot was, I guess, diagnosed as terminal.  So, as a society, we gave up.  That, after the aims and goals of the civil rights initiatives post WW-II is the profound human tragedy.

3.  A ghetto is a state of mind.  Robert Kaplan found very poor people in Turkey when he traveled there, but their inner pride was evidenced in how clean they kept their very meagre housing. 

4.  Swamp castle and New Orleans.  Somehow, for a place that was infamous for the occasional display of huge tracts of land, the problem of building another castle on that swamp will boil down to a matter of human spirit. 

5.  This ain't just New Orleans' problem, in the big scheme of things.  The profound economic impact of New Orleans not being up 100% as a fuel terminal and port of embarcation for all kinds of products, from the heartland's,won't be felt for another few months.  But it will be felt.

New Orleans was/is no sleepy little seaside town, she's a major commercial center.

Occhi
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Of course people get out. Takes WILL. And there is a whole system there to break your will and make you conform. And be submissive. Some people refuse to break. The system can not hold them.

I did a lot of growing up as a boy in Nawlins. So I know what it is like there. That said, ghettos are pretty much all the same, no matter where you go.

Like you said. Ghetto is a frame of mind. It's an oubliette. A place where people are thrown and forgotten. And for two shiny nickles, I can tell you who created this elaborate structure, this system which is self perpetuating. You might not like it, but you can't deny it. It's still the same old same old. Slavery.

Let me give you an example. Let's say, for a moment, that one of these average sorts gets it in their head to get a job and try and do something with their life. Let's say they live in Section 8 housing. Goverment assisted. Rent is based on income, which is usually a welfare check of some sort. Now, this person goes out and gets a job. Yay! They have a job. What happens now? Their Section 8 voucher gets yanked. That's what. And their welfare dries up. So now they have to pay "Fair Market Value" rent on their crappy little apartment. Which is an artificially inflated gross obcene number. And it's usually more than they can make in a single month working a 39 hour week at a minimum wage job and still get by. So they get a 30 day eviction notice. Have got to move out. Ever tried to hold down a job while you were homeless? Damn near impossible with out a lot of outside help. Most folk, especially these folk, get fired on the spot. No address, no job. So, this person is now jobless, homeless, with no income what so ever. Even worse than when they started. So, it's back down to the welfare office to reapply, it takes a while to get the checks started, and they have to live in a homeless shelter or a public assistance house while they wait a couple of years for an apartment to open up in public project housing under Section 8. It actually costs a whole lot more to get somebody back on welfare then it does to keep them on welfare. So, there is an elaborate system created to keep people still and hold them in place. It is very, very difficult to get out. Most people have no idea just how hard it is. It's grossly unfair. Ask a lot of these folk about jobs and they flinch. They know better to get it in to their mind to "get all uppity." Many of them have been punished for wanting to make something of themselves. And that's what it is. Grossly unfair inhumane treatment. Punishment. And forgive me for saying it, most of white America will NEVER understand what it's like to live under this sort of system. And it passes on to the children. And now several generations later, there is a crushing weight in place.

It's ugly, it's horribly racist, and it's one of America's nastiest bits of dirt that is constantly being swept under the rug.

[Doc]

I am quite possibly the most dangerous thing you can find here in the South. An empowered minority that knows the system like the back of my own hand, is educated, as has the big brass balls required to speak out.

And I must remember that I am with friends here at the Lounge, and I must not fire pot shots. Must not stir the hornets nests of racism.

I do not hate white folk. I started down that path in my life... Believe me, I have all of the reasons and experiences I need to loathe and mistrust somebody based on something silly like skin colour. I choose not to.

[Roland]

Aside from being white, I'm so damn glad I live in the North. I'm sure my views are skewed because I live in upper-middle class white suburbia Heaven, but I simply can't imagine life being that bad in the "ghettos" up here as they are down there.

Then again, I've seen poverty, REAL poverty, first hand. Washington County, ME. Poorest county in the entire U.S. I've seen that crap, and it ain't pretty. I'd never wish that upon anyone, and I wish I could do something to change it. But unfortunately, I'm barely scraping by as it is, so it will be a LONG time before I'm ever in a position to help others.

I don't doubt you Doc. It's a real crummy situation, and I wish to all end I could change it. Maybe some day enough of us will be able to get together and do something about it. But, like you said, it's a mindset, and simply throwing money at it won't do anything to change it.

[Chesspiece_face]

I am quite possibly the most dangerous thing you can find here in the South. An empowered minority that knows the system like the back of my own hand, is educated, as has the big brass balls required to speak out.

And I must remember that I am with friends here at the Lounge, and I must not fire pot shots. Must not stir the hornets nests of racism.

I do not hate white folk. I started down that path in my life... Believe me, I have all of the reasons and experiences I need to loathe and mistrust somebody based on something silly like skin colour. I choose not to.
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Don't worry. I'll give you something to start firing pot shots at:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/ne...t_id=1001054719

I would say something about this but it would be 90% swearing and be removed promptly...

[Doc]

Don't worry.  I'll give you something to start firing pot shots at:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/ne...t_id=1001054719

I would say something about this but it would be 90% swearing and be removed promptly...
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**Head explodes**

I saw that on tv.

I, well, I mustn't say anything that I feel like saying. I know it would only get me banned.

Or have the post locked.

[Occhidiangela]

Don't worry.  I'll give you something to start firing pot shots at:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/ne...t_id=1001054719

I would say something about this but it would be 90% swearing and be removed promptly...
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For a lady who is generally good at the PR game, that was . . . clumsy, at best, and I am not sure what -- patronizing? -- at worst.

Occhi

[Olon97]

5.  Some of the Katrina mess is bad timing, of course.  How powerful a hurricane will be at land fall is extremely hard for the meteorolgists to predict.  (Oh, but we can surely be certain that global warming is purely man caused?  Right.) 

Not much evidence of warming being related to frequency, but strength and duration have tracked pretty well to temperature changes - at least according to one researcher's work:
News coverage of study.
Direct Source. (full text needs subscription to Nature or viewed from a domain with a site license)

[Roland]

I'm speechless.

And disgusted.

[Occhidiangela]

Not much evidence of warming being related to frequency, but strength and duration have tracked pretty well to temperature changes - at least according to one researcher's work:
News coverage of study.
Direct Source. (full text needs subscription to Nature or viewed from a domain with a site license)
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Hmmmm. It is still a theory, based on models, and supported either by a cyclical phenomenon or or by the "greehouse" issue, or both. I am glad they are looking into it in depth, and am interested to see what they find out over time.

Global warming vs. natural cycle

Other researchers have noted that this is more likely a natural period of intense activity for Atlantic hurricanes. For example, William Gray, a specialist in tropical meteorology at Colorado State University who pioneered seasonal hurricane forecasts, notes that the region goes through swings in activity that can span decades. He and his colleagues have noted that the US and its southern neighbors have faced above-average hurricane seasons for the past decade and is likely to do so for some time to come.

Emanuel acknowledges that such cycles are important. Depending on the region under scrutiny, the impact of natural cycles such as El Niño, or the multidecade cycles Dr. Gray observes, can swamp any global-warming signal the storms may carry. But viewed worldwide, the signal starts to appear.

His latest finding, he says, grew out of attempts to answer a broader question: Do hurricanes help drive large-scale ocean currents? These currents carry tropical waters toward the poles, bringing warmth to middle and high latitudes.

In other words, what the media will report as a fact, and what some fools will assert as "known" is a matter of ongoing study and a lot of hard work on the part of some smart, industrious, and intellectually curious scientists.

Occhi

[jahcs]

I believe the Earth's climate runs in natural cycles and that we better take care of our planet as best we can. Instead of these folks arguing and finger pointing lets just act responsibly.

The truth, as Occhi mentions, is that we just don't know enough to make a final judgement. We know pollution is bad for us so we can work on that without playing Chicken Little.