Guns, Butter, and Led Zepplin

[Occhidiangela]

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/ne...t_id=1001051313

I urge anyone interested in the problems caused by the breaching of the Lake Ponchartrain levees to read the article by Mr Bunch. New Orleans is not the only city that relies on major infrastructure to function in its present form.

When reading the article, consider the following points of interest.

1. An expensive war was undertaken AND tax cuts were implemented at the same time. (This still irritates me, has since the tax cuts were announced in the wake of the decision to go to war.) This decision was a risk, taken for political reasons, under the expectation that the debt/debt burden could be overcome over time. That by itself may not be a bad thing, all decisions have their risks, but there is NO free lunch.

2. Short term impacts of Guns And Butter is that short term budgets/revenues are curtailed, which requires spending austerity measures in the fiscal year execution. Projects funded and budgeted all of a sudden get "zero funds" assigned to them. Having been under the federal programming and budget execution rubric for over 20 years, I know all to well how things "just dry up" that were planned and budgeted years prior. It comes with a cost to operations, to function.

3. No one can be certain that had some of the Army Corps of Engineer projects, which appear to have been under a 10-20 year time line after the 1995 floods, remained funded, they would have prevented all of the damage to the Lake Ponchartrain water control system, but it is probable that the failure/breech would not have been as catastrophic. That is speculation, however, and cannot be proven as far as I know. It is also water under the bridge, or over the levee as it were.

4. Consider: even if the levee could not have been saved via repair and maintenance projects over the past few years, the direct impact of the LANG 256th Brigade (5000 men the Governor could not mobilize) and their current deployment in Iraq. They are based in Fort Polk, LA. You will hear quite a bit about this before it is all over.

5. Some of the Katrina mess is bad timing, of course. How powerful a hurricane will be at land fall is extremely hard for the meteorolgists to predict. (Oh, but we can surely be certain that global warming is purely man caused? Right.)

Very good piece on the Discovery Channel last night on how the Chimney effect in the Gulf of Mexico gives some hurricanes a little "steroid shot" as they head north and west. Those uncertainties are why FEMA exists and disaster preparedness plans have to be in place in any major urban center. I have been familiar with Disaster Prep Plans since Hurricane Gilbert, 1988, on an intimate basis. They still have to be adjusted when they meet with an actual disaster, as no plan survives contact intact.

6. In the the next few weeks as all the finger pointing and posturing fire up, which they surely shall -- no one avoids a political opportunity when presented with one -- consider the complexity of modern urban based society and how expensive it is to sustain the infrastructure to keep it going. Consider how the two decades long "reduction in government" movement has slowly cost many municipalities the political cost of having to increase taxes, particularly property and sales taxes, to fund significant infrastructure programs.

There is no free lunch.

Pretty much everything costs something, other than sunlight, love, and thanks.

If you don't keep your car's fundamental components maintained, it will break down. If you don't keep a society's infrastructure maintained, your society will break down.

Two classic cases are Cumae, Italy/Rome, and Pestum, both of which basically died out from malaria by the 600's AD once the Roman water works completely broke down due to inattention, and the lands reverted back to undrained, unmanaged, swamp.

As for Mogadishu on the Mississippi™, that speaks for itself. Robert Kaplan wrote a perceptive article in 1993/4 called "The Coming Anarchy." (Atlantic Monthly) What he didn't project, I don't think, was conditions that would trigger the same sort of symptoms within a modern, western country.

Locally, we just shipped five pallets of food and drinking water, from donations collected at the high school my daughter attends, via the State of Texas EMA, up north to whoever needs it. No idea if it is headed for the Astrodome, or NO, or Mississipi.

A drop in the bucket.

Occhi

[Guest]

The problem -

http://councilfor.cagw.org/site/News2?abbr...Article&id=9178

http://www.cagw.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=9046


Its never as simple as just throwing money it. You need good smart people to make this stuff work and were trying to do it with politicians.

[Occhidiangela]

The problem -

http://councilfor.cagw.org/site/News2?abbr...Article&id=9178

http://www.cagw.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=9046
Its never as simple as just throwing money it. You need good smart people to make this stuff work and were trying to do it with politicians.
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Politicians are the people who end up setting public policy. Public policy is a major part of their job description. Their problem is that they get presented with a number of alternatives, and have to wiselly choose which alternative, or combinatinon of them, is the best course. They don't always get it right, even those who are not corrupt or simply self serving.

My concern is the delta between 11-17 billion for Boston's Big Dig, for traffic alleviation (and the knock of effects pro and con on our air quality) and major public works to, for example, prevent a city from flooding. It is not a simple either or issue, and transportation policy is related to energy policy . . . or should be.

This was an interesting tidbit, thanks.

The bill, which could go to the Senate floor today, is flooded with 618 unrequested Army Corps of Engineers projects costing more than $1.3 billion, and 117 “congressionally directed” energy projects worth $172.5 million.

Occhinote: what does "unrequested" mean? I wonder.


· Walkin’ in high cotton and not forgotten. Senate Appropriations Committee Chairman Thad Cochran (R-Miss.) plucked $176.8 million for projects in his state, including: $113.3 million for Yazoo River and Basin projects; $3.5 million for Pascagoula Harbor; $2.5 million for the Jackson State University Bioengineering Complex; $1 million for Mississippi State University bio-fuel application; and $1 million for hydrates research at the University of Mississippi.

· California Screamin’. $87.7 million worth of projects will be flowing to the state of Senate Energy and Water Appropriations subcommittee member Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), including: $30.9 million for the American River watershed modifications; $7 million for Upper Newport Bay ecosystem restoration; and $500,000 for the Arnold Palmer Prostate Center at the Eisenhower Lucy Curci Cancer Center.

· Celebrating Fat Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday… Senate Energy and Water Appropriations subcommittee member Mary Landrieu (D-La.) grabbed $81.4 million for the Pelican State, including: $16.6 million for the J. Bennett Johnston Waterway (which received $11.5 million in fiscal 2005); $1.3 million for Barataria Bay; and $500,000 for the Louisiana Immersive Tech Enterprise Program at the University of Louisiana-Lafayette.

Citizens Against Government Waste is a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization dedicated to eliminating waste, fraud, mismanagement and abuse in government.

These folks target large projects, yet seem to choose not to go into the long term needs being met by the infrastructure projects. Of course, they could just be pork. Sometimes hard to tell the difference.

© CITIZENS AGAINST GOVERNMENT WASTE
1301 CONNECTICUT AVENUE, NW, SUITE 400, WASHINGTON, DC 20036
202-467-5300

I am going to ask my dad about these folks, something fishy.

Occhi

[Guest]

Oh Im not defending the details of those links. I was just showing there is 2 sides to goverment spending on public works.

Yes we need to support of infrastructure.

No we can afford wasteful infrastructure.


Its hard for any one to make those decisions, but politician most likeky to be elected is ussually the one that pays for new stuff rather than maintains the old stuff.

[Minionman]

·        Celebrating Fat Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday…  Senate Energy and Water Appropriations subcommittee member Mary Landrieu (D-La.) grabbed $81.4 million for the Pelican State, including:  $16.6 million for the J. Bennett Johnston Waterway (which received $11.5 million in fiscal 2005); $1.3 million for Barataria Bay; and $500,000 for the Louisiana Immersive Tech Enterprise Program at the University of Louisiana-Lafayette.
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:huh:

Seems that if some of this money goes to Louisiana, it would at least go to something New Orleans flood related. It's the same money, and would go to something people know is useful.

[Minionman]

Time for some 1 cent political analysis:

All that talk sometimes about "empty slogans" and such, plus my bits and pieces a few months ago about electing people based on "sy,mbolic issues" seems to have come back to bite in a big way. Lots of descriptions and blame game seems to be coming out of this, but it still seems to have been managed really badly.

(I still actually have to get off my butt and send something down there. I'll probably find someplace to send the money tomorrow as quick as I can.)

[whyBish]

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OK,

1 ) I heard that the pres. announced a $10B relief package. Is that all? with a population of 3M(?) thats $3k per person. If all your stuff is gone is $3k going to help...

2 ) I hear that the relief effort is finally moving on the fifth day... this is actually good compared to what we have been informed of here. Our main risk in Wgtn NZ is an earthquake, and residents are advised that they should be prepared to survive by themselves for a week before help will arrive.

3 ) It's a good time to buy horses.

[--Pete]

Hi,

2 )  I hear that the relief effort is finally moving on the fifth day... this is actually good compared to what we have been informed of here.  Our main risk in Wgtn NZ is an earthquake, and  residents are advised that they should be prepared to survive by themselves for a week before help will arrive.
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Consider the advanced warning you get in a hurricane as opposed to an earthquake. The aid should have been rolling before the hurricane crossed the coast and have been ready to roll south thought the (much reduced) northward moving storm to the areas that needed it.

Seven days to respond to an earthquake that may or may not happen, with no advance warning, sometime in the next hundred years? That is an admirable level of preparedness. Five days to respond to a hurricane, when multiple hurricanes hit somewhere on the American Gulf and Atlantic coasts yearly and the most likely path is known days ahead of landfall? That indicates an attitude similar to the fool who, having fallen off a skyscraper, was heard to say as he passed the tenth floor, "So far, so good."

--Pete

PS The malleability of the English language is amazing. 'Wgtn' is, I presume, 'Wellington'? :)

[whathuh]

My dad emailed me this 'Open Letter to President Bush' yesterday. It's quite unfair to be bashing Bush for the war in Iraq and all our military over there: Katrina was totally unexpected. Even though the author stretches the truth and defines the word 'Jerk', it does make you wonder what our government is really doing. If you hadn't guessed already, it's from Mr. Michael Moore who we all know and love/hate/ignore.

Friday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina
and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted.
Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do
you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot.
Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could
really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do
like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to
begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of
Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but
it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were
still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was
on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I
know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't
like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of
dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to
Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps.
Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was
over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you
specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans
this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if
you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be
any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more
important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was
moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as
you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the
disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on
some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to
use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out.
Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would
happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and
hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their
global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a
hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that
stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30
percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no
transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's
not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white
people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has
nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army
helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and
the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com <mailto:mmflint@aol.com>
www.MichaelMoore.com <http://www.michaelmoore.com>

P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch.
She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving
across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can
catch up with them
<http://www.bringthemhomenowtour.org/userdata_display.php?modin=50>
before they get to DC on September 21st.

And, yes it is indeed a good time to buy a horse. Personally, I have a Prius which I am letting my brother use as a car, since it's pointless for me to have one.

[Jester]

I blame Bush for making stupid moves that endangered America's ability to respond to crises. The idea of preparation is to be able to deal with the unpredictable as it emerges. Any failure of preparation must be justified by greater need elsewhere.

Iraq fails that test, and badly at that. So, I lay the blame at his doorstep. Either he should have been more prepared, or should have been more careful about committing the troops. But, no, he wanted a discount war during budget cuts, as Occhi pointed out.

Any reason why it's not fair to blame him for this? I can't see it.

Jester

[--Pete]

Hi,

Any reason why it's not fair to blame him for this? I can't see it.
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I can think of only one reason. One shouldn't blame the poor stupid puppet for what the puppeteers make him do.

--Pete

[Occhidiangela]

Hi,
I can think of only one reason.&nbsp; One shouldn't blame the poor stupid puppet for what the puppeteers make him do.

--Pete
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*Cha Ching* He shoots, he scores.

Pete, this next bit is not directed to you, but I will use my response to your zinger as a springboard to the following.

I am now beyond disgusted at the commentary by complete morons, both in New Orleans, in the media, and on the internet. They are either confusing their facts, don't know a fact from a fig, or simply are not familiar enough with how the EMA structure works (see Hurricane Andrew or Hugo). As for Mr Moore, he can eat sh**. The whole reason I open this thread was not to cry about people who would not or could not leave New Orleans, it was more to frame the Katrina mess within the long term infrastructure policy, nationally, that of benign neglect now become malignant neglect, in the past 20 years.

Regarding the emergency response, the poster who played the whiner card may not be aware of how a FEMA, or state EMA template is usually drawn up. After a discussion with my office buddy who works the local Red Cross disaster relief desk (We get flooding in the river basins every year, people still build there . . .) I will fuse his comments and my experiences.

Typical phasing, on natural disaster plans (hurricane and earthquake) with which I have been familiar, is that by hour 48, state (i.e NG) resources are rolling into the area (for the first 24-48 the locale has to rely on its own EMA plan, cops etc) and by hour 96, Federal troops arrive. Withing the first 96, various lead Federal and NGO (NON governmental organizaitons, such as Red Cross, what have you) modules arriving as soon as the violent events that preclude travel into and out of the disaster zone subside. The variables to overcome in deployment timelines include damage to roads, size and equipment, remoteness of location, roads and bridges being down, runways useable or not, and so on.

On that score, FEMA had THREE states declared states of emergency at once, and New Orleans' catastrophic emergency was NOT the hurricane per se (although the hurricane was a significant emotional event) the LEVEE failure was. The Levee failure lagged the Hurricane's arrival by what, a day, half a day? Had the levee overflowed, but held, the flooding would still have been impressive, but the levee failure was an unexpected, or possibly wished away in the last 5 years assumptions. It was not the key of the arriving Federal and State hurricane relief effort, yet it changed immediately the hurricane recovery into a catastrophic flooding recovery, absent nearly all the infrastructure you take for granted: electricity, phone, roads, non existent in significant parts of New Orleans.

Parts of New Orleans. Check some of the sat photos of NW New Orleans, and . . . it was not under 20 feet of water.

The TV has been showing everyone a Cardboard Paper Towel Tube view of a wide area mess. For a political purpose, for ratings money, and to grind a variety of axes. The pundits need to be muzzled for the next 96 hours. But no, they won't STFU.

The emergency action plan was being executed BEFORE THE STORM HIT. Anyone remember the Governor giving New Orleans the evacuate order, and opening the Superdome (Oh crap, no generators? oops, EFFED up local plan, not Federal) That was part of the Emergency Action Plan.

But the idiots and pundits whinge away.

FEMA convoys were attacked and hijacked by armed thugs within the first day. Hospitals were looted by armed gangs. That is not generally a planning assumption, that people in distress will shoot to kill and rob at gunpoint the relieving forces, and prey on one another rather than assist one another.

Oh, but it's President Bush's fault. Right. ..!.. (No, he did not come off well when he did get off the dime, gee, go figure, he is legendary for his poor public speaking skills. See Pete's zinger again)

The local cops got fed up early. New Orleans lost, what, just under half their police force in the first 24 hours? Either quit, could not get to work, or what have you. Or went native and joined in the looting. Or just left.

The Mayor of New Orleans ought to be working and trying to restore his city, not running his yap about it all being someone else's fault. (More below) However, in his defense, return to the points I made in the opening post about the wishing away of the risks, over years, and despite ACoE protests and priorities. He has lived each hurricane season with the knowledge that if the storm hit close enough, greater than force 3, he was screwed. Risk decisions made are now coming home to roost, decisions made at the local, state, and federal level.

So, he cries. That is not leadership, that is whining, politics, and despicable. JFK would puke. New book out next week, I hear, by Robert F Kenedy, Jr, he of Global Warming caused blah blah fame. His new books is to be entitled:

"Profiles in Whining"

Are the FEMA and EMA assumptions about large cities with significant gang problems valid? NO. Obviously not. Every major American city may now need to be treated as Mogadishu when a natural disaster hits. How do like them apples, folks? It says your fellow citizens are barely a step away from being animals.

Could the response have been quicker? Perhaps, if only one state were impacted. Neighbor state MOU's fail when the neighbors get hammered.

Was the lack of the LANG unit critical to the governor being less able to respond? Yes, but since the troops were deployed, what thoughtful people might want to consider is what MOU or agreement the governor of LA had with neighbor states for back up, knowing full well that the normal rapid response force was gone. This was NOT a secret to anyone in Baton Rouge. What deal had been cut, for example, with the Texas Governor? I wonder. The Arkansas Governor?

"But the army should have sent troops within 24 hours to establish martial law!'

Really? Perhaps so. Of course, they have to mobilized for that mission. There is aprocess, a political process, that one has to go through to do that. It is not a process President Bush built.

Where does that lead us, though, this "send the Marines" attitude these Monday Morning Quarterbacks have?

South of the Mason Dixon line, it leads us to some harsh old political territory, and a law called the Posse Comitatus Act. Politics is politics, and the immediate in rush of Federal troops to establish martial law is not something many southerners want, southern politicians, so the political threads that go into any approved plan reflect that. Disaster plans are, whether you like it or not, colored by politics, just as military operational plans are.

The carping crowd seems to ignore portion of the non evacuated population of central New Orleans went criminal as soon as the lights went out. Just like in the New York Blackout of 1977.

I don't know how deeply that changed the nature of the help available, in scope and scale, but it reportedly cost some federal, FEMA, aid that was in the area within 24 hours to be abandoned. The aid arrived, and was either hijacked, or was held just outside the relief zone pending armed convoys.

Now, let's look at the inanity of the New Orleans disaster plan: a hurricane big enough to force evacuation is coming, and the assumption is you don't need diesel generators to create electricity, the lights will surely come on, and the ventilation, when you hit the switch. We don't need portajohns, in the Superdome, which is the primary internal evac point for those who can't get out. We . . . we are idiots, we New Orleans city planners and leaders, since we assume . . .

Criminal stupidity, in the case of the former and current mayor of New Orleans. The people of New Orleans have some of their own neighbors to blame for their human induced disaster, and their own byzantine political processes and lack of preparedness.

I am not defending Pres Bush, see my note on the levees that got this thread started, Nor do I think the response was perfect. But this blame game makes me sick, and between CNN, Fox, ABC, CBS, and the jerkoffs in the foreign press, the fundamental issues missed.

What I am grateful for is that so many of our allies, from Canada to France, have ponied up help as soon as it can be accomodated.

That is what friends are for. Thanks, folks, this rogue appreciates it with all the heart in the roguish little body. :D

Occhi

[Minionman]

In case you were throwing some of the "mrons" comment in my direction, perhaps I should have copied my amazon basin poss about how the view of politics in general that leads to the constant slogans and issues picked has taken attnetion away from planning and paying for this sort of thing, and how it leaks down to lower level governments.

[whathuh]

In case you were throwing some of the "mrons" comment in my direction, perhaps I should have copied my amazon basin poss about how the view of politics in general that leads to the constant slogans and issues picked has taken attnetion away from planning and paying for this sort of thing, and how it leaks down to lower level governments.
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I'm sorry, having second thoughts about posting that. I think its rather funny playing the blame game. After Farenheight 9/11, I pretty much lost all respect for Mr. Moore. I enjoyed Bowling for Columbine, since I agreed with some of what he said.

I believe that President Bush should probably do more to help, and it really is his responsability to get the help going (and tell people to go help, etc...).

Of course, I'm not sure what I think anymore, so I just give up. Mainly because I don't know 1% of the facts. I get mixed ideas from the internet and the media, so I have no idea what's true and what's not. All I know is I didnt get more than 1 mm of rain from Katrina and it's pretty bad down in New Orleans.

On a more positive note, wouldn't it be nice to start these hurricane relief things before the hurricane hits? You know, just in case something horrible happens like the levees breaking.

[Occhidiangela]

In case you were throwing some of the "mrons" comment in my direction, perhaps I should have copied my amazon basin poss about how the view of politics in general that leads to the constant slogans and issues picked has taken attnetion away from planning and paying for this sort of thing, and how it leaks down to lower level governments.
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Minionman

As I understand some of the old articles, the old stuff from the Times Picayune, after six people died in flooding in New Orleans in 1995 the leadership, state and local, and most likely national due to Congressional funding tie ins, took their time in applying the recommendations of the Army Corps of Engineers on repair and upgrade/upkeep of the Lake Ponchartrain levee system. So, between local, State and Congressional processes, the cost of "doing the right thing" has been put off (in deference to some other works project or money demands) for over 10 years, to include what appear to be some recent cuts on the Executive Budget. We cannot ever know if the recent cuts, had they NOT been made, and had the NEEDED WORK been accomplished ON TIME, all the while relying on HOPE for a level 4 'cane NOT to show up, would have mitigated the disastrous outcome of Katrina. That conclusion has already been jumped to for political point making.

Outcome of using Hope as a Method? Save a few hundred million, lose 10 billion plus, not to mention big insurance payouts severely depleting many companies' reserve funds.

"Pay me now or pay me later."

But the morons choose to blame President Bush? Gimme a break, their concept of agency is appallingly shallow and self serving. There is plenty of blame to go around, and the blame IS ZERO VALUE ADDED NOW THAT THE HORSE HAS LEFT THE BARN.

The Symbols you cite are now Symbols of something else, FOR someone else, for their political agenda. More Zero Value Added Bullsh**.

If you think the moron shoe fits, wear it, if not, by all means don't put it on your foot. It doesn't match your belt anyway, and good fashion still counts for something. :D

Occhi

[Minionman]

Minionman

As I understand some of the old articles, the old stuff from the Times Picayune, after six people died in flooding in New Orleans in 1995 the leadership, state and local, and most likely national due to Congressional funding tie ins, took their time in applying the recommendations of the Army Corps of Engineers on repair and upgrade/upkeep of the Lake Ponchartrain levee system.&nbsp; So, between local, State and Congressional processes, the cost of "doing the right thing" has been put off (in deference to some other works project or money demands) for over 10 years, to include what appear to be some recent cuts on the Executive Budget.&nbsp; We cannot ever know if the recent cuts, had they NOT been made, and had the NEEDED WORK been accomplished ON TIME, all the while relying on HOPE for a level 4 'cane NOT to show up, would have mitigated the disastrous outcome of Katrina.&nbsp; That conclusion has already been jumped to for political point making.&nbsp;

Outcome of using Hope as a Method?&nbsp; Save a few hundred million, lose 10 billion plus, not to mention big insurance payouts severely depleting many companies' reserve funds.

"Pay me now or pay me later."

But the morons choose to blame President Bush?&nbsp; Gimme a break, their concept of agency is appallingly shallow and self serving.&nbsp; There is plenty of blame to go around, and the blame IS ZERO VALUE ADDED NOW THAT THE HORSE HAS LEFT THE BARN.

The Symbols you cite are now Symbols of something else, FOR someone else, for their political agenda.&nbsp; More Zero Value Added Bullsh**.

If you think the moron shoe fits, wear it, if not, by all means don't put it on your foot.&nbsp; It doesn't match your belt anyway, and good fashion still counts for something.&nbsp; :D

Occhi
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What is the general point of this post?

[Jester]

I am humbled.

Did I mention that it's good to have you back?

-Jester

[jahcs]

I'm sorry, having second thoughts about posting that.&nbsp; I think its rather funny playing the blame game.&nbsp; After Farenheight 9/11, I pretty much lost all respect for Mr. Moore.&nbsp; I enjoyed Bowling for Columbine, since I agreed with some of what he said.

BFC was an anti-gun piece that almost hit the mark. Mr. Moore was attempting the "Gunz 'r Bad, Mkay" story but I got more out of the sections on the media and how much influence they have over the sheeple and the attitudes they propogate. Most of the other stuff he has said since then isn't good use of the credibility he got from BFC.

I believe that President Bush should probably do more to help, and it really is his responsability to get the help going (and tell people to go help, etc...).

As soon as it becomes clear that a Local and/or State Governments can't handle the situation the Federal Government must step in for the good of the people. From the information presented by the media that has taken too long. YMMV.

When the crisis escalated past what the current disater preparedness and resources could handle the local authorities and crisis managers should have decided what they needed to have happen, what it would take to get it done, and gone to the people that could do it. The organizations above that level should be ready to say "Here's what we've got and can do, what do you need?"

[Occhidiangela]

What is the general point of this post?
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Response to what appeared to be confusion on your part on as to whether I was giving you a deliberate slap in my general "morons" epithet. Other than that, perhaps a bit of thinking out loud.

For Jester: "Back?" Well, thank you, glad to see you are still with us. :D

Occhi

[--Pete]

I am humbled.

Did I mention that it's good to have you back?

-Jester
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Thanks,

-Pete