Attendance & Burnout

[hiryuu1115]

When we were chatting on TS after a raid one night, we had said that the class leaders were going to have to point out mistakes more, to help people learn. Is this something that those leaders feel comfortable doing?
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I'm not much of a leader, but I have no problems whatsoever yelling at people if I think they need it. The problem seems to be when I yell too much. I'm a pretty blunt person and not inclined to pretty doublespeak politeness anyways :\

[WildFire]

Kind of makes me wonder just how difficult power-levelling someone is in WoW if you put your mind to it.  What are the tricks you can do to funnel XP to someone specific?  Burn through quest XP with a 60 helping them, or grind mobs that are green to helper char, but yellow or orange or even red to the being-cheesed character?
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Not hard at all, IMO. Find a friend who's 60 and do not party with them. Lowbie tags the mobs and the 60 helps kill. Skip all instances except when necessary for loot (and then, get a couple 60's to run you through quickly).

I used a lot of those same strategies on my mage. Of course, I skipped instances because it's damn near impossible to find a non-cheese group. Disclaimer: I would rather actually play a character to 60, but was biulding the mage for PvP (which turned out to be a huge waste of time since PvP on SR consists of waiting in line).
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Actually, I don't think getting to 60 is as much as an issue as it is to get geared up enough to be effective in raids. This is especially true for tanks and healers.

To that end, there would be the 'need' to go on countless DM, LBRS, UBRS, Strath, Scholo runs to get pieces of class sets and other equipment.

Believe me, it won't be as hard for me to get a warlock to 60 as it is to replicate stuff like the Staff of the Ogre Magi, Briarwood Thorn, Crimson Felt Hat, Dragonrider Boots and Shroud of the Nathrezim that I have on my mage... not to mention the grind to Tailoring 300 so I can make a Robe of the Void.

I loves me my +dmg and +crit gear :wub:

[Darian]

The problem seems to be when I yell too much. I'm a pretty blunt person and not inclined to pretty doublespeak politeness anyways :\
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Hey, I resemble that remark.

[Alrin]

I am only going to say this.
Raiding takes a whole different mindset than what I have seen from many members of <The Basin>.
Flame me if you will, but that is my observation.

[martini]

I am only going to say this.
Raiding takes a whole different mindset than what I have seen from many members of <The Basin>.
Flame me if you will, but that is my observation.
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I'm not going to flame, but I'm not sure it's a very productive statement.

I've heard a fair bit of this kind of attitude lately from different sources, and it's really disappointing to me. While we have a bunch of people coming up in the ranks of the game who have recently capped, and therefore haven't been able to put in the time in the smaller 60s instances, a bunch of us have, but we all seem to get lumped into one pot.

I've had people lately trying to tell me stuff like what's coming next on a Baron run... "yeah, I know, I've done this dozens (and dozens) of times already, but the RNG is cruel :)" The Basin has active members who hit 60 for the first time around March, we've been doing this for as long as CA and the Lurkers have. We ran all-Basin MC runs on the first couple of MC bosses successfully (then shelved them so they wouldn't interfere with the Avarice runs). As a group, I have found Basiners to be competent and intelligent, and I haven't seen anything that would make us poor raid participants.

If there are people who aren't performing as well as the raid leadership (as advised by the class leaders) would like, then someone needs to tell these people that, and try to work with them to improve, which is the role of the class leaders, is it not? If that doesn't improve things, the raid leadership can make invite decisions taking that into account.

Alrin, your post didn't suggest any action that should accompany your apparant "truth"... are you suggesting that CA and Lurkers should chuck The Basin out of the alliance? Are you suggesting anything at all? What did you mean to accomplish with your post?

[Alrin]

Never mind. I withdraw my statement.
I am clearly mistaken.

carry on.

[martini]

Never mind. I withdraw my statement.
I am clearly mistaken.

carry on.
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Um, what? I asked you to elaborate, and you're just going to "withdraw" (with wording that makes it seem like you're actually sarcastic and holding to your original point) instead? Can't we just talk about this? Do you not feel like giving the raid leaders the ability to choose who gets invites solves the problem of people who don't bring their "A" game to raiding?

[Alrin]

I said I was sorry will you just effin drop it already?

[Tuftears]

Feel that burn(out), baby! :P

[Bolty]

Feel that burn(out), baby!&nbsp; :P[right][snapback]90626[/snapback][/right]

Cool - guild drama, and it's not my fault! :)

-Bolty

[Quark]

I said I was sorry will you just effin drop it already?
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One simple suggestion - don't mention having an opinion if you're not willing to back it up. If you believe something, say why. If others don't believe the same, oh my god, they have a difference of opinion!.

Your statement was purely divisive with no actual content. Either back it up and present a problem we can work on fixing, or don't mention it at all. I do not want this alliance to turn bitter because of snide comments.

[Lissa]

Cool - guild drama, and it's not my fault!&nbsp; :)

-Bolty
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Now that you have posted, it's your vault! :whistling:

[Bolty]

Now that you have posted, it's your vault!&nbsp; :whistling:[right][snapback]90655[/snapback][/right]

You're close, Lissa. It's actually "since this was posted on 'your' website, it's your fault!" Cause you know, this is going to come off like "The Lurker Lounge thinks the Basiners are a bunch of weenies."

-Bolty

*Dons his Amazon Basin T-shirt and drinks from his Amazon Basin mug*

[Alrin]

One simple suggestion - don't mention having an opinion if you're not willing to back it up.&nbsp; If you believe something, say why.&nbsp; If others don't believe the same, oh my god, they have a difference of opinion!.

Your statement was purely divisive with no actual content.&nbsp; Either back it up and present a problem we can work on fixing, or don't mention it at all.&nbsp; I do not want this alliance to turn bitter because of snide comments.
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Fine. I will explain my initial statement.
<The Basin> has (with a few exceptions) poor raid discipline. It takes alot of practice.
Getting to 60 is in no way an indicator of being "ready" for highend raids.
This was the statement I didnt want to make after seeing martinis post but there it is.
To raid things like MC and up, you need raid participants that are in posession of the following attributes:

Ability to listen and OBEY raid instructions.
Ability to not give out orders when they are not a raid leader/assistant.
Ability to not keep interrupting leaders/assistants on TS.
Ability to want to LEARN & IMPROVE their gameplay.

If a "raider" can't check each and everyone of these attributes they have no business in MC/BWL/ZG/AQ. That's the cold hard truth right there.

Bitter? You bet. I am at a point right now where I get sick to my stomach when I think of the prospect of doing an avarice mc run. That's how bad it is.

And quite frankly? Those who are rumbling and moaning that I should get off my high horse and stop running with CM so I can raid mondays as well with avarice? Be quiet.
You know, YOU try on for a change to go on raids at 01:00 - 06:00 AM and experience the kind of stress and see if YOU feel very encouraged to keep doing that for nothing.

Yes, the way things are for me is that the ONLY time I can raid is during my NIGHT. Not evening. Night. So don't talk to me about loyalty and comittment. Don't even start.

:angry:

[Lissa]

Ability to listen and OBEY raid instructions.
Ability to not give out orders when they are not a raid leader/assistant.
Ability to not keep interrupting leaders/assistants on TS.
Ability to want to LEARN & IMPROVE their gameplay.

You're actually guilty of the two italisided, so saying that is hypocritical. Hell, a large number of CA and Lurkers can be accused of those two items, myself included.

And quite frankly? Those who are rumbling and moaning that I should get off my high horse and stop running with CM so I can raid mondays as well with avarice? Be quiet.
You know, YOU try on for a change to go on raids at 01:00 - 06:00 AM and experience the kind of stress and see if YOU feel very encouraged to keep doing that for nothing.

Yes, the way things are for me is that the ONLY time I can raid is during my NIGHT. Not evening. Night. So don't talk to me about loyalty and comittment. Don't even start.

:angry:
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Actually, I have no problem with that because you yourself mentioned that MJ was pretty much self destructing on their raiding and that was why you were going to app with CM.

[Darian]

Ability to not give out orders when they are not a raid leader/assistant.
Ability to not keep interrupting leaders/assistants on TS.
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I have to say this, and I think everyone's going to realize the truth of it as soon as I say it.

The people who weren't doing the above before I took my hiatus from leading the raids were, by and large, not Basiners. I'm hard-pressed to ever remember a time when a Basiner ever made a command statement of any sort in a raid I was running other than "Shut up and listen to Darian." And the Basiners, as a whole, have been very quiet on TS.

Yes, there are things I don't think the Basin was prepared for when it comes to regular raiding (Martini's well aware of that, as I had that discussion the night I melted down) -- namely, that a lot of them just aren't experienced in the MMO raiding environment in the way that most of CA IS experienced from having been involved in the EQ end-game. But for the most part, your criticisms here need to be more properly directed at CA/Lurker players, not the Basin.

[Olon97]

<The Basin> on Tichondrius (+about 5-10 fill-ins per run from other allied guilds) currently can clear the first 8 MC bosses in a little under 5 hours and is probably a few weeks away from our first Rag kill. We also had all but the last two ZG bosses (and the alchemy one) downed a couple weeks back. I know that's not the context you're talking about, but it is evidence that the Basin variety of cats are herdable. Besides our predeliction to PvP (or just to Horde in my case), the Tich guild's culture is similar to the Stormrage chapter and if you ask our Tich raid leaders about the rank and file you'd hear plenty of griping about people clogging TS at innoportunte times, although up until the Majordomo learning phase we didn't encounter much in the way of people 2nd guessing the leaders during a run. Talking in TS has gotten better to the point where silly banter dissapears when it needs to, and remains when it is doing no harm.

The primary mission of the Basin is to have fun with our friends (we are playing games not working after all). Relevant to the original topic is a small discussion we had on Tichondrius about how to keep our raids fun. For most people who bother to go on raids, killing the monsters efficiently without a ton of downtime inbetween for loot / criticism / afks is what makes a raid fun.

Couple other points on the burnout subject:
- Set a time limit for your raids and within reason, keep to it. More than 4 hours can be really rough, especially if there is wiping and hefty repair bills involved.
- Reinforce the positives. Strangely enough, when people realize they can commit to a 3 hour session and see ~12+ epics drop in that time, signing up for that guaranteed invite spot becomes more attractive.
- Know when to call a raid that's not going well. Too many wipes and even the nicest folks can start turning on each others like wolves. Point out what you've learned, areas to improve for next time, and let it go 'till next time.

The upside to raiding with a community focused on having fun together rather than with those of a traditional power gaming mentality is over the course of an MMO's life cycle, you'll find the fun based group stays together a lot longer. On Tich we've already seen several "power gamer" guilds come and go, and we're still going strong.

*Caveat: I don't really know the state of the Basin on Stormrage, I know a few people (many play alts on Tich), but really I'm just talking about steriotypes that have applied to the guild from game to game (including several other MMOs). Since the post is directed at steriotypes as well, I figured I'd join in on the pile. :P

[Alrin]

This is the reason I didnt ... oh blah #$%& it.

Have fun guys. I know I won't.

...

edit: And yeah, bye and all that #$%&.
Closing note. If you had the guts to talk about how BAD things have become in /g and then not speak up when it comes out in the open, dont #$%&ing say anything in the first place, aight?

God.

[Quark]

Thank you, Darian. I simply didn't post last night because I didn't think I could be civil. You said, basically, what I wanted to say.

[Quark]

edit: And yeah, bye and all that #$%&.
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Was this your intention? Your basis is off simply because you accuse The Basin of doing things that many from CA and Lurkers have also done. So unless you're that out of touch with reality that you can shift blame completely to your former guild tag, you're looking for something else.

And since you were the first one to bring it up - when you left MJ and went to CM, you were really lost to begin with to us. They raid when we raid. Would you ever have chosen us over them? I certainly understand your desire for that high-end raiding group that is more active. But there's many different ways to handle the situation.

You could play it like Skandranon, and simply be on your alts when you want to. You could play it like mjdoom, and help us out when you have the chance.

You could play it like Vale with vague promises that obviously were never meant to be kept. You could play it to make it seem like its completely our fault, try to make yourself feel guilt free. If you burn the bridge, there's really no regret in your head when you're in BWL while we're fighting in MC, is there? Of course, this is your 2nd burning bridge, isn't it?