Attendance & Burnout

[Tuftears]

For what it's worth, Fred (emaq123)'s discipline/holy priest is level 54, so within shouting distance of 'endgame raiding'. And has been forged that way through lots of grouping play, so should be well experienced with healing a group. Fred also has a dorf priest that will be shadow-spec'd but he's at level 20-ish and will be tied to a different group. So, we have one mage that can be swapped for a priest soon.

Warlocks, now, those are thinner on the ground.

Personally, I doubt anyone will ever ask me to bring my paladin instead of my druid, except maybe for the Scholomance epic mount quest...

[Kevin]

If we were cooperating as a guild we might coordinate teams of similiarly leveled characters, and then make regular times and level 4-5 up most quickly and at the same time.
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And this is in essence the problem for me.

I'm already starting to feel that everything I'm doing in this game is "for the raids". Of course since Blizzard designed the game to only really have character progression through items late game and put those items in raids that is kinda what you have to do to progress a high level character.

How do I keep it fun? By not making everything be about the raids. I thought I would need to stop raiding but the friday night 5 man runs that I get on Terenas help me out a lot.

However the problem with Stormrage and doing this is that we are too big for it. If we say that Wednesdays will be 5 man and small raid nights we'll get groups together but I'll hate that initial time of "who goes where and how do we set up the groups". The organization of a group this large starts to take a fair bit of time. You can structure it more to make that eaiser but then it becomes "Well I need to get on to play this toon for this group" not "I'm gonna play some WoW and have some fun!" Too much scheduling of a game just gets to me. It also has a tendency to make core groups of people that have lots of times with "outsiders" of the people that don't have as much time. Not really something I want to see.

So this discussion isn't all that different than the one we had a few months ago, about how do we get enough people up there so we can raid UBRS and scholo and strat? How do I get people for high level quests? I'm willing to help but how do I know who needs the help?

In game guild housing with a quest/instance help board would be nice since that would be an easy to update and follow thing but well Blizzard didn't want to go that route. It becomes too much work to maintain a list outside of the game, we've tried a bit with that already and failed.

I still go on raids for the social interaction and the challenge of the fights. Sure we almost never lose to Luci, but the fight always throws a few twists in there that make you have to react to be successful. Though that is more so for a warrior or a healer (the only things I've done the fight with), I would imagine that a mage or hunter would deal with each fight pretty much the same. For me having Gnolack be in just about every tanking roll you can have has helped me too. It's fun to be the MT but I don't want to do it every run. It's fun to be second tank/DPS caller, but again I like to switch it up.

Mirajj has been puller on the last few MC runs. The next few I lead he won't be, unless no other hunter wants to do it. I think that actually helps and doesn't slow us down too much.

Hopefully we can get the new loot system in place soon so there is one less thing for some of us to think about.

Another thing for me is that when I'm not raiding I'd like to spend time playing with my wife, Treesh, who doesn't like raiding. Her schedule of course makes that harder and harder to do, but having fun with her is more important to me than having fun with anyone else.

Raid scheduling is already looking like it's due for a change. Though we failed on the last Onyxia run (1% arrgh!) we should be more successful with her and the current rotation means we lose chance at a kill every 2 weeks. Molten Core either needs larger blocks of time or time when we can make sure we have the people there.

If we want to expand the pool it would be better to do it from players that aren't already raiding but might want to. I know RTM, Bolty, and Meg are coming up the ranks do they want to raid on a semi-regular basis? If they do how much help do they want in getting to 60 faster? Is there anyone else that is approaching "raid" age that thinks they want help getting there? I would much rather get more people than more toons to raiding age.

I don't want to ask anyone to play a class. I want people to play a class because they enjoy it. Not everyone will enjoy every class and the more you enjoy the class the better you are at it. Of course I'm not bringing up any of my alts just so we have another raid option. I'm bringing up my alts because I enjoy playing them. If they happen to be able to help out in a raid, great. Balador after a few more BRD runs and poke or two in UBRS will be ready raid and will be 58 or 59 from just doing that stuff so I'll have a paladin I can bring along if need be (though we are rarely shot on paladins).

I've also seen comments that healers may not be needed so much. That I'll never buy. I think there has only been one run where I thought "We might have too much healing" and that was one of the smoothest runs I've ever seen us have. We have a distinct lack of healing in the guilds still. Some of it has prevented non raid runs from happening. I know that I've had to take Taranna along on runs or they wouldn't happen. I left a pubby UBRS run for a shot at the shield to heal an alliance run. Gnolack still doesn't have a drac deflector. I'm the only consistent tank who doesn't have one now either. And right now I'd almost rather get my UBRS key completed then do a UBRS run...

I don't know I'm rambling. But I don't see a way to make the raids more fun and cut down on raid burn out without hurting the non raid scheduling. Of course if we don't keep some focus on raids we'll continue to lose members who want to get to more raid content faster.

As much as I want to see Zul'Gurrub I'm not going there without missing an Ony or MC run because I don't want to raid anymore than I do now. So I'll keep waiting until we get more consisten 40 mans going before I pull out of them. I'm still having fun on them even though we haven't gotten anywhere on the last two so I'll stick with those so that 39 others have a better shot at them working. Then I'll start dropping from those to see Zul'Gurrub every now and then.

Oh well this is way too long and rambly....

[kandrathe]

I like the concept of a 5-man team.  I played Mio with the same 5 people up to 60.  I had a few chars that I played solely with two chars Quark had.  It was fun.  It helped me get to know my class.

I want to try out a 5-man team.  I'd be more inclined to level my rogue or warlock on SR if I knew I'd have 3-4 people to group with at all times.  It would also make things go much quicker (for me at least) and would help me understand my role in a group much better.

::shrugs::  Just an idea.  I'm weird ::points to sig::
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I'm sure we could put together 2-3 teams of similiarly leveled toons. They would need a tanky type, a healer type, and two or three dps types (hopefully all warlocks, although we will miss some CC capabilities of rogues, hunters, and mages). In the 20ish area I have a druid, Manawyddan(24?) as either a tanky type or a healer type. For the lvl 30ish group I offer either my warlock Elleneor(35), or warrior Brynmawgr(37) as the team tanky type.

Most important for this to work is to have a schedule or the team will get frustrated trying to get anything done and it will fall apart and we will all just go back to solo'ing again. The team should agree upon a course of action, which quests, which rewards are important and efficiently gather the same quests. And, then they need to have a level differential rule, where if one person falls too far behind, the group either works solely on bringing them back up, or chooses to drop them in favor of another more level appropriate.

What are some blocks of time we can work with? I'm mostly on in a dedicated manner after my kids go to bed at 9pm server time until about 2am. But I can do some things with interruptions, depending on the circumstances, between 6:30 and 9:00pm. If we dedicated a non-raid night, I could do that too.

[Ruvanal]

But the simple fact is, I'd never singularly ask for a person to get an alt up.  I can only say it would help us.
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Agreed. And it would only help us to a limited amount. Look at a few of the players that do have multiple characters that can particapate in the raids. And look at what happens when they cannot make it; the group is out for several options then.

The main thing is to have some players that are enjoying the characters that they do have up there.

[Pesmerga]

I'm sure we could put together 2-3 teams of similiarly leveled toons.  They would need a tanky type, a healer type, and two or three dps types (hopefully all warlocks, although we will miss some CC capabilities of rogues, hunters, and mages).  In the 20ish area I have a druid, Manawyddan(24?) as either a tanky type or a healer type.  For the lvl 30ish group I offer either my warlock Elleneor(35), or warrior Brynmawgr(37) as the team tanky type. 

Most important for this to work is to have a schedule or the team will get frustrated trying to get anything done and it will fall apart and we will all just go back to solo'ing again.  The team should agree upon a course of action, which quests, which rewards are important and efficiently gather the same quests.  And, then they need to have a level differential rule, where if one person falls too far behind, the group either works solely on bringing them back up, or chooses to drop them in favor of another more level appropriate. 

What are some blocks of time we can work with?  I'm mostly on in a dedicated manner after my kids go to bed at 9pm server time until about 2am. But I can do some things with interruptions, depending on the circumstances, between 6:30 and 9:00pm.  If we dedicated a non-raid night, I could do that too.
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While I like this concept, I know there are a lot here who will not. The other issue is that I only have 2 nights a week to really play. The other nights I'm either spending time with my fiancee, reading, writing, or playing one of my PS2 games. I have a hard time getting online if Emily is awake and it is not a Monday or Thursday.

[kandrathe]

A comment possibly for Tal, or you, or Darian or anyone willing to pull this together.

However the problem with Stormrage and doing this is that we are too big for it. If we say that Wednesdays will be 5 man and small raid nights we'll get groups together but I'll hate that initial time of "who goes where and how do we set up the groups". The organization of a group this large starts to take a fair bit of time. You can structure it more to make that eaiser but then it becomes "Well I need to get on to play this toon for this group" not "I'm gonna play some WoW and have some fun!" Too much scheduling of a game just gets to me. It also has a tendency to make core groups of people that have lots of times with "outsiders" of the people that don't have as much time. Not really something I want to see.

I've been responsible for some very large organizations, bigger than even our combined guilds. My opinion on this off raiding coordination is that you need to have everyone who wants to cooperatively work on alts or off-nite groups throw into the hat what toon, class, level, and objectives (<-- the Fun). Then, the leadership of this endeavor parses people up into reasonable 5-mans, 10-mans, 15-mans, etc and let's the individuals work out when they can coordinate together. If circumstances change they toss their toon back into the hat. The leadership doesn't have to be concerned about whether everyone/anyone shows up, and what the group does, it just gets the ball rolling. Once the group firms up when the "event" will happen, then it can be published (even with vacancies if for instance you have 12-13 for LBRS run). We can then even tap on the guild regulars to pitch in to say "help Gnolack get the Draconian deflector", or "Sayuri finish her UBRS key", or "Garrin get his epic mount".

Just a thought.

[Ruvanal]

I like the concept of a 5-man team.&nbsp; I played Mio with the same 5 people up to 60.&nbsp; I had a few chars that I played solely with two chars Quark had.&nbsp; It was fun.&nbsp; It helped me get to know my class.

I want to try out a 5-man team.&nbsp; I'd be more inclined to level my rogue or warlock on SR if I knew I'd have 3-4 people to group with at all times.&nbsp; It would also make things go much quicker (for me at least) and would help me understand my role in a group much better.

::shrugs::&nbsp; Just an idea.&nbsp; I'm weird ::points to sig::
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I suspect that you would do better with a 3 or maybe 4 man team than pushing for a full 5 man. It is easier to coordinate your regular play that way and serves as a core group for doing some of the 5 man instances if needed. This worked rather well for Gnolack, Aleri, Sabramage and Littledude going through BFD till end game. By having 1 or 2 slots open for whoever else in that level range needs some help or is willing to help, you get a chance to experience more of what other classes and players can offer. It can also give an opportunity to show some that are having difficulties with learning what they can do in a group or with learning some seldom used skills while soloing.

[Pesmerga]

I suspect that you would do better with a 3 or maybe 4 man team than pushing for a full 5 man.&nbsp; It is easier to coordinate your regular play that way and serves as a core group for doing some of the 5 man instances if needed.&nbsp; This worked rather well for Gnolack, Aleri, Sabramage and Littledude going through BFD till end game.&nbsp; By having 1 or 2 slots open for whoever else in that level range needs some help or is willing to help, you get a chance to experience more of what other classes and players can offer.&nbsp; It can also give an opportunity to show some that are having difficulties with learning what they can do in a group or with learning some seldom used skills while soloing.
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I know I'd have a better time with 3 or 4. :) I would just like all 5. I'm an optimist!

[Kevin]

While I like this concept, I know there are a lot here who will not.&nbsp; The other issue is that I only have 2 nights a week to really play.&nbsp; The other nights I'm either spending time with my fiancee, reading, writing, or playing one of my PS2 games.&nbsp; I have a hard time getting online if Emily is awake and it is not a Monday or Thursday.
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5 man teams are great we had one going many months ago (the short squad) that was mostly killed by server lag because well it was horrible back then. The scheduling became an issue. Though how much of a team do you want it to be? How much soloing do you want and how much just teaming for the instances? Probably be a lot easier to keep the team together if everyone is playing something that isn't their main as well. If you think of a character as your main and you look at how easy it is to solo and progress in this game how much are you going to want to "wait" on 4 other people? I actually suggest you spend as little time soloing as possible because one person getting too far ahead or behind and the whole group can be off, and everything but collection quests will be insanely fast. You can all even basically play solo just in the same area to share exp if you want and you will move quickly and not have to stop for anything. A +3 or +4 elite out in the world? Bah just kill it and move on!

Of course you now run into the issue of the five man team is getting all the play time and groups they want, but then what happens to person Q when they want to try and get a group for instance R and you have everyone tied up in the 5 man or raid schedule?

It all comes down to time in the end and how you want to spend it. If you really want to do a 5 man somewhere post about it 3 or 4 days in advance here and I bet you'll get that 5 man together unless you have a really oddball time for it like 2:30 server on a Wednesday or 4am server on a Tuesday. If you want it enough it's worth your time to post about it. If you want a 5 man with just the people you are closest with on the server well that can be a lot harder to do and take even more sacrifices.

Heck when I do an avarice "pick-up" I've been saying something like "who would be willing to go to Sunken Temple in 20-30 minutes. Because even if you say "right now" it'll still take 20 minutes for you to get the group organized anyway. :) So you can do same day stuff if you put the word out. Heck I've asked and been told by others that, "well so and so was asking about that and will be back in about an hour" and that works well too.

Of course the main gripe isn't about getting 5 mans I don't think. I know that if I wasn't so fickle I'd have an easier time getting groups than I do somedays. :)

But yeah I'm all for 5 people getting a team together if they can. Gnolack pretty much ran in a team with Sabramage, Littledude, and Aleri from about L30 to L60 with very little deviation. If we were on, we grouped and helped whoever needed more help with whatever they were doing. Duo'ing is pretty much the fastest way to level in this game because even most of the elite quests that aren't in an instance are pretty simple in a duo. So when we saw each other we grouped up. That may be enough of a commitment for helping people out. I've tried to do this with others but they they either leveled too fast or too slow for me. The Sabra, Ruv, Treesh grouping was really the only one where most of the people were going the same pace and the fewest sacrifices were made for me.

The folks on Terenas are pretty much doing the same thing right now. There were about 7 of them in the same level range (until Treesh and I started playing over there regularly again) and they did the friday night things and started getting through stuff pretty quick. Treesh and I have leveled past many of them again though, partly because of the power of the duo, partly because we've had more play time than some of the others. But I'm pretty convinced that for questing up to L60 that you simply can not beat a hunter/shaman duo for power and abilities. Sure they have limited CC but you have 3 offtanks that can all do good DPS (well a beastmaster spec really helps that with both the tanking and the DPS for the pet and yes a hunter with monkey up can offtank pretty well with the pet on something else though the spirit bond nerft hurts that). But that is besides the point.

Another option is to try and get a duo or just a trio going and then for instances see if you can get a couple other avarice members or even a few pubbies. If you have 3 solid players even adding 2 monkeys to the mix generally won't be enough to sink you in an instance unless they are so bad you should just kick them. Heck 3 compentent players with the right class mix can do most of the instances at appropriate level anyway. I know the hunter/shaman mix I mentioned earlier has though that was pretty slow going. 3 people can move a lot quicker. The instances where you really start to hurt with only 3 are higher level ones that it should be easier to get other avarice members for. A trio with someone for runner control should have no problems in SM or Uldaman . Some of the pulls and events in Zul'Farrak, Maraudon, and Sunken Temple would get rough with just 3 though but at that stage adding a single 60 would let you succeed and not really trivalize it becuase one 60 and 3 46's or something would still not be an easy divno-matic for example. A trio in an instance is also going to really make you learn to play the class to it's fullest as well. I know that I feel I'm a better player from the early days on Terenas where Treesh and I were duo'ing instances or running with one or two other pubbies in them.

Just another option that will be easier to organize. Sure a 5 man team would be ideal but if you can just get a 3 man going you can pretty much go with just that with very little in the way of outside help and you aren't slowing world quest progression by that much either. You also have the chance to have duo's for world questing if one of the people isn't on.

Edit: LOL at all the replies that came up from others while I typed this. :) See clarity and brevity are a good thing GG. :)

[Kevin]

A comment possibly for Tal, or you, or Darian or anyone willing to pull this together.
I've been responsible for some very large organizations, bigger than even our combined guilds.&nbsp; My opinion on this off raiding coordination is that you need to have everyone who wants to cooperatively work on alts or off-nite groups throw into the hat what toon, class, level, and objectives (<-- the Fun).&nbsp; Then, the leadership of this endeavor parses people up into reasonable 5-mans, 10-mans, 15-mans, etc and let's the individuals work out when they can coordinate together.&nbsp; If circumstances change they toss their toon back into the hat.&nbsp; The leadership doesn't have to be concerned about whether everyone/anyone shows up, and what the group does, it just gets the ball rolling.&nbsp; Once the group firms up when the "event" will happen, then it can be published (even with vacancies if for instance you have 12-13 for LBRS run).&nbsp; We can then even tap on the guild regulars to pitch in to say "help Gnolack get the Draconian deflector", or "Sayuri finish her UBRS key", or "Garrin get his epic mount".

Just a thought.
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See that's the thing. I don't want to organize it. :) I'm happy enough with what I get out of the game. I'm doing as much organizing for this game as I want to. If you want to step up and make this plan a reality go for it. If I do, I will burn out. I'm pretty good with my limits and while I've done organiztion of groups this size in the real world and feel I can, I don't want to do it hear. The other thing is that with this being a form of entertainment I want to keep things as open as possible for people. I have intentionally not used some of the skills I have with organizing people in a workplace setting because I want people to have more of a choice because this is a game. I've stepped up a few times to help with things because it seemed like that was what a lot of people wanted to do. But mostly I stay pretty selfish when it comes to the use of my time for this game. I get my fingers in all the discussions because I like doing that though. :)

But I don't want to go through the effort of even saying what my alts need for an off night either right now. I'm happy enough with the pace they are moving. I'm fine with a few postings now and then about I want to do this instance or just trying to get an on the fly group for it. So with no personal motivation for it, I haven't done something like this and I won't do something like this because I just don't care enough.

I've never looked at lurkers as a very formal or structured guild. If someone wants to organize something for members they should just go and do it. It doesn't need a blessing from tal or Darian or me or anyone else who has run or organized things in the past or who is guild leader or whatever. Of course when you start to organize it people like me will come out and say how you should be doing it, instead of just letting you do it. :)

We're a heard of cats, I let the cats be the cats most of the time and play the game and help where I can and where it helps me too.

And yep I obviously take enjoyment from the pure discussion, I'm a lurker. :)

[Ruvanal]

How do I keep it fun?&nbsp; By not making everything be about the raids.&nbsp; I thought I would need to stop raiding but the friday night 5 man runs that I get on Terenas help me out a lot.

However the problem with Stormrage and doing this is that we are too big for it.&nbsp; If we say that Wednesdays will be 5 man and small raid nights we'll get groups together but I'll hate that initial time of "who goes where and how do we set up the groups".&nbsp; The organization of a group this large starts to take a fair bit of time.&nbsp; You can structure it more to make that eaiser but then it becomes "Well I need to get on to play this toon for this group" not "I'm gonna play some WoW and have some fun!" Too much scheduling of a game just gets to me.&nbsp; It also has a tendency to make core groups of people that have lots of times with "outsiders" of the people that don't have as much time.&nbsp; Not really something I want to see.
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What would probably be better in this context is not setting a night aside to 'schedule' doing 5 man content or such. But rather set aside a night when no one is supposed to request or ask in channel or through whispers to set up any sort of 'raid'. Making it a time that is more casual and effectively supportive of doing some of the smaller content stuff like 5 mans or the more troublesome quests that are not easily soloed.

In game guild housing with a quest/instance help board would be nice since that would be an easy to update and follow thing but well Blizzard didn't want to go that route. It becomes too much work to maintain a list outside of the game, we've tried a bit with that already and failed.

Maybe this is what is needed. GuildEventManager.
http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php?addid=1592
Alrin I think had posted about it last week, but I can't find the orginal thread. While it is listed for setting up raids, it could work fine for many smaller needs too.

[LochnarITB]

If we could have some of the Hunters or Mages start leveling up a Warlock
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Just a note that this player is currently having the most fun with, and paying the most attention to, leveling his lock, Lochlock. He is currently 42 though, so it will be some time before he is raidable. The next most likely candidate for some level lovin would be the rogue, Lochnacht. He is in his mid 20's so he isn't really a consideration yet.

As to time, I've said it before. Unless my RL changes drastically in the next few months (and there is potential for it to do so), days are out. The earliest I can commit to is probably 6pm server, with the possibility of 5 with good advanced notice, but that is pretty much 7 days a week.

As to the fun of it. I am still having fun with our group raids, win or lose. Only a couple things could make it more enjoyable. If we could get our strategy down tight to smooth out our bumps, especially when Bliz throws in a wrench, I would enjoy not seeing the frustration some of the people are experiencing. Also, if one of these bosses could see his way to dropping me an epic laptop PC, I would feel better about being able to always contribute to the fights instead of losing DPS to system lag.

I am having fun. The frustration and burn out I see in others makes me sad and I wish I could come up with a better way to get them through it.

[Lissa]

"Forcing" people to level up other characters so they can bring them to the raids instead of the character they may want to actually bring to the raids is going to cause burnout quicker.&nbsp; People are going to have to want to play other characters rather than just suck it up and do it for the good of the raid.
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And that is exactly the problem I am starting to run into. Right now our regular Warlocks are myself, Bellona, Killion, and Zippy, and there never more than 3 of us at any one raid. The only backups we have are Dragoon (which has 3 potential positions to play) and Bun. So far, I have been to every raid with Tahapenes, even when I was the only one due to RL issues with other players.

Given the general need of 2 Warlocks minimum for getting Garr downed and beyond, it actually behooves others to make Warlocks so that we have a larger pool to deal with so everyone succeeds. If the pool grows, we have a better chance for people to play what they want vs. forcing certain players into burnout situations which means no one succeeds.

[Darian]

I suspect that you would do better with a 3 or maybe 4 man team than pushing for a full 5 man.&nbsp; It is easier to coordinate your regular play that way and serves as a core group for doing some of the 5 man instances if needed.
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Yes, yes, a thousand times. Caerdwyn, Krossandra and Genkar are running everything together with the exception of Caerdwyn's warlock quest hoofing, and I'm finding that keeping three people stuck together permanently, with semi-regular guest appearances from others and a permanent fourth for instances as Taha levels alts up with us on the way through, to be much easier to keep organized than trying to keep five people stuck together.

[Mirajj]

Hrm, what to reply to, what to reply to...

I have (as several have likely noticed) been under some stress lately. However, for the most part, it's actually RL related. It does come out in-game, making me more irritable than I usually am, or even should be. Thanks for putting up with me. =/

That said...I find pleasure in helping friends move forward. I raid to help gear up those I consider friends, so that we can progress deeper. I'm a progress wh***. I love moving further and deeper, seeing new stuff, and part of my frusteration has been that since the weekend folks made it to Domo...Avarice has only gotten past Garr once. To one of my personality, that's...frusterating. I've never seen past Shazz. =/ But I am a patient one, and the time will come.

Having someone else pull...I take especial pleasure/pride in my pulling, and it's one of the thrills of the raid for me. I also, however, know that there need to be folk other than me who both know and are comfortable with the pulls (It's a neat kind of pressure, IMHO).

As to alts...Meg and I have a lvl 42 warrior/priest combo. Any night that both of us are around (and that's the trick...) we are more than happy to go anywhere we can, level appropriate. Meg has never had a C higher (though her priest is catching up) and so alot of the instances and the like are still new to her, and she's loving them.

She also has a lvl 41 (may be 42) priest by now. She loves playing the priest, too. If you are in that age range and need healage, feel free to ask her.

However...we're also both quite taken with Twisting Nether, and may be found alting on there, too.

I think that's all I have/want to say right now.

[Taakal]

Basically what Mirajj said. I love instancing, I love healing [still getting used to it in groups, but I'm holy/disc because . . . well, mostly because I'm really stubborn, but I also can't imagine what playing a solo shadow priest and then trying to group - and heal, rather than being DPS and a backup healer - must be like, so I wanted to save myself a step], I love tanking. I'm doing my best to bring my girls up expediently without getting exhausted or bored, and I think I'm succeeding. I have every intention of being involved in 5-mans and raids when I'm "of age", which may yet be a month or two, but I assure you all that I want to be here, and in the nebulous future of "there". :)

[martini]

We're never, ever, short on Hunters and Mages.&nbsp; It would be nice if there was some more diversity away from those two.&nbsp; But the simple fact is, I'd never singularly ask for a person to get an alt up.&nbsp; I can only say it would help us.
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I know that I may be part of the problem, but honestly I've tried to play alts before, and have never gotten one above 20, except for my druid on Tich, who got to 31 by about May, before completely abandoning her. Alts just don't do it for me, and I like playing Rhyssa, and raiding with her.

I'm not sure what the solution to the problem is... since there were 35 people who could come on the Onyxia raid last night, maybe the issue is with having more than one raid night? Maybe scaling back to just Monday and Saturday would give people more time for 5-mans (something I want to do a lot more of) and other groups? I can't come on Mondays, so this move wouldn't be good for me personally, but if it's what we have to do to keep everyone having fun, then I'm all for it.

I'm a bit surprised that we're in this situation... we were filling raids just a couple of weeks ago, and doing extremely well in MC, not sure why people aren't coming as much now. I know that The Basin had some of our top raiders defect to Tich, but that was only a couple of people. When the point system goes live, we'll be able to see who was coming on what nights, and maybe that'll give us some insight into where everybody went.

[martini]

Having someone else pull...I take especial pleasure/pride in my pulling, and it's one of the thrills of the raid for me. I also, however, know that there need to be folk other than me who both know and are comfortable with the pulls (It's a neat kind of pressure, IMHO). [right][snapback]90264[/snapback][/right]

I used to pull on the Basin runs, and I agree that it's a ton of fun to be out front running around and making the decisions while everyone else stays back. I'm happy to watch from the back of the pack with Avarice, but it would be fun to get up front again sometime. :) It's nice to rotate these positions, even if only occasionally to give people experience.

[Bolty]

If we want to expand the pool it would be better to do it from players that aren't already raiding but might want to.&nbsp; I know RTM, Bolty, and Meg are coming up the ranks do they want to raid on a semi-regular basis?&nbsp; If they do how much help do they want in getting to 60 faster?[right][snapback]90224[/snapback][/right]

Yes.

I was never in a hurry to get to the raid game because once you're there, it becomes all there is to do. Nevertheless, I have three characters getting up there - a 54 Mage, 51 Priest, and 48 Warlock. I was surprised by the sudden call for Warlocks because all I'd heard for a long time was how healers were needed.

I consder help by level 60 characters on any instances pre-BRD to be cheese, but my characters are just about there. Bolty, my mage, is in BRD mode and will join any group looking to go. However, I care about him less than my Priest, who I find more fun to play. I am working to get her into BRD range as fast as I can, and I expect her leveling speed to take off from there.

Back to the main topic at hand - the lack of attendance at MC is obviously due to two reasons:

1) Burnout
2) Lack of exclusivity

You may have too many raid nights. I noticed on Labor Day weekend that it was getting a little much - there were, what, 4 straight long days of raiding? 20 hours + spent in MC/Onyxia? People got REALLY burned out there - I heard it on guild and avarice chat both. Raiding used to be something really special, now it might be done too much. Not too much for a hardcore raiding guild, but we're not one of those. If you're raiding more than not, people will get tired of it fast. It needs to be a special thing that's done maybe twice a week at most. If that prevents the guild from being able to complete MC, then something needs to be figured out, and I don't know the solution. I know, useful, aren't I? :)

Also, the raid leaders are having to deal with too much bull-you-know-what. And without solid leadership, no raid will ever succeed. You look at every hardcore raid guild and there's a strong leader who ties the whole thing together, and is able to do so via a solid support staff that helps to deflect some of the bull-you-know-what. Take it from someone who used to try to run this website all by himself and burned out so hard that he closed it for just about a year. You have to put up with people criticizing all of your actions, insulting you, and basically trying to tear down everything you build because, as is true of all things, it's far easier to criticize than to contribute. I see that happening with the raid group, just based on things I've heard, and I'm not even participating...

-Bolty

[Sabra]

I would like to hear from everyone who raids with us regularly what is fun, and what is not fun.&nbsp;

Well I guess I qualify, so just let me give you my position, which I've always thought was the wrong one, but now I think is maybe the right one.

Many Lurkers said that moving into the end game content is what they wanted. As a guild officer, I am honor bound to make sure that Lurkers are getting what they want. So I made a commitment and I keep my commitments. Plain and simple. I said I would be there and I'm there.

I enjoy the interaction with my fellow raiders and that is enough gratification for me. It is lovely to get items and to see others get items. Even though I'm not much of a loot whore, I am not blind to the fact that the ability of all our characters to progress in this exacting content is directly related to how good their gear is.

And the other thing they will be dependant upon is their ability to follow instructions and take direction from others. I'm well equipped for following instructions. I have been directed by and have directed others in theater most of my life. If someone says stand here like this and do that, I am fully qualifed to stand there that way doing what I was told to do. Discipline serves me well. I've also learned to follow those directions without immediate contradiction and I've learned to follow them quietly. That is just common decency and respect.

Finally - and I say this objectively and without any particular personal feelings of my own - I know that the fluctuation in and out of the Avarice raids by different classes of toons from the participating guilds has caused some of our core to have concern about the dilution of loot under our current random system by toons that may never raid with us again or may only raid with us sporadically. I understand their concern and feel that the prompt announcement of a loot distribution system would go a long way to restoring morale. No one likes to hang from tenter's hooks.

I will close by reminding everyone that one of the keys to success is to just keep showing up.