60 and Beyond (End-Game Progression)

[nobbie]

Clicky!

We have been watching, reading, discussing and compiling a great deal of information regarding the discussion of character advancement at level 60. To be sure, all of you have had a great deal to say and many have contributed to this broad discussion who may not have before, and we thank you for your dedication to being heard and making your personal views known on the subject. We have seen this discussed between players, ourselves and the development team. From this we would like to convey a few ideas which we feel the player base should bear in mind in this discussion.

First, we are certainly aware of how you, in general, feel about this topic. If you feel you are being ignored or disregarded, it is simply not the case. To individually acknowledge every submission to this debate is not nearly as possible as reading every submission. We opt for the latter rather than the former. In addition, not only are we aware of your concerns, the development team is aware of your concerns. We have engaged in more than one meeting where this has been a topic, if not the topic of discussion. They read these boards as well and are not out of ear-shot of your voice.

The development of the casual end-game is a continuing process with us. You may not be completely satisfied with what we have at this point in time, but we are not done with developing this game. What is currently being developed and which we plan to address (and we do mean before release of expansion) are elements and content which touch on the areas in which some players feel the game is lacking.

# Stat progression for players who refrain from large groups
We have some particular ideas and plans which will allow players who do not wish to raid to upgrade gear and see some statistical improvement. These particular elements should hold an “epic” feel while remaining targeted at the solo and small-group player.

# Questing at 60
We realize that at 60, strong incentive for questing evaporates. Obviously, this is due primarily to experience rewards or the lack thereof at 60.We are developing methods to alter, yet reinvigorate questing for players who have reached the level cap.

We feel confident we have provided a great richness and variety into the game that many can draw from and have fun experiences. However, we are not done yet. There are events, quests, dungeons, and other content which have been in the works for some time and are going to be available in the foreseeable future. The issue here is simply that generating content takes time and the content being developed for, let us say, patch 1.9 has been in development for more time than simply since the release of 1.8. Development time is substantial, and while it’s certainly understandable for you to desire immediate changes, such an occurrence is not realistically feasible with the content creation cycle. That isn’t to say we’re not changing the game based on your feedback; far from it. It merely takes time – months’ worth -- for the suggestions being made today to become reality.

Along with that, much of what you are requesting is something we are still experimenting with and testing notions and ideas. Many have asked us to innovate new dungeons for smaller groups that have an epic feel. This is not out of our scope nor is it something we haven’t been working on. There are many ideas in the field of which you are requesting that we are developing. We will continue to work out viable paths to content that are appealing to smaller groups. Obviously, many of these ideas will be present in the expansion.

The key ingredient is time. We realize the expansion is in the future, but that does not prevent continued patches to occur before that. The important notion to bear in mind is that the things you wanted and requested months ago are closer to completion and implementation than the things you are requesting now.

In all honesty, we wanted the expansion to come out earlier than it likely will. As our first MMO, we were a little blind-sided by the incredible demand and popularity which this game received. This applied certain pressure and we did not secure some of the technology which is now allowing us to develop content at an improved rate. Through the nascent development of this game five years ago and through its turbulent release, our core design team has maintained a strong vision for this game which has obviously appealed to a great number of players. The selfsame core team, the veterans and original designers of this game, continue to make contributions today that are indicative of the quality entertainment this company has put forth time and again. We are still committed to making enjoyable games for as many as we can and our vision of that has not wavered, but matures over time. We have not lost sight of you or what you think is fun, we simply need to catch up to where we wanted to be previously. The raid content you see coming up is part of the complete picture we wanted to have for the game, but the complete picture is not based solely on raid content. Along with that, we are regarding the current debate and situation for some players as something that will not recur upon reaching the new level cap.

We do not consider this game any one play style’s right or governance. We cater to many tastes and work to provide content for all. While some of you may feel a lull in the action at this moment, we are in fact accelerating towards future releases and content. We are in a better position now to provide for you, the players, than we ever have before.

[bernard shakey]

I am very pleased

[Wogan]

I'm not. What an empty post.

It basically amounts to "We know, we are working on stuff. We can't tell you any more. Trust us".

[Guest]

Well I canceled 3 days agao - for the second time. I find the end game sucky. If they imrove it sometime Ill come back, unless I have found a better game in the mean time.

[fractaled]

I'm not. What an empty post.

It basically amounts to "We know, we are working on stuff. We can't tell you any more. Trust us".
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Yes, quite vapid.

They need to create buzz around the casual-player material/ideas they are planning. They really haven't done anything along those lines ever. Lots of buzz about raid content, and pvp, but not much else.

I'm actually somewhat surprised they haven't announced a profession-update (i.e. something similar to the talent updates they've been doing).

[Warlock]

The post is vague, but it’s substantially more hopeful than Blizzard’s previous responses on the issue. So I’m glad to see it as some recognition that Blizzard does take some notice of their player base..

I’m still overall disappointed with it’s contents, though. No specifics promised, weasel words in key places, use of the terminology used by pro-raid players... I think it’s damage control, nothing more. I will happily surprised if it represents the start of a shift in the direction of the endgame.

The raid/non-raid content flared up heavily on the Blizzard forums in the last little while. I’m on the non-raider side of the line and hence see the various non-raider arguments as more coherent and reasonable than the raider ones (to the point that I can’t even make direct quotes of some raiders without feeling that I’m setting up a strawman!)

So my autorenew is off for now. Small group content that is both challenging and well rewarded will get me to turn it back on; if it’s well rewarded but not challenging (‘WTB Rugged Armour Kits’) or challenging but not well rewarded (‘finally finished the last Scholomance quest… oh, another Large Brilliant Shard. Thanks.’) then I’ll still feel like a second class citizen. Small group instances as long, as challenging and as rewarding as Molten Core et al are not impossible.

[Raelynn]

Yes, quite vapid.

They need to create buzz around the casual-player material/ideas they are planning. They really haven't done anything along those lines ever. Lots of buzz about raid content, and pvp, but not much else.

I'm actually somewhat surprised they haven't announced a profession-update (i.e. something similar to the talent updates they've been doing).
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It doesn't help that in another post concerning the lack of 5-man stuff lately, they basically said that no new 5-man dungeons are coming until the expansion. They say they want to add all this new stuff, but I see little backing up these claims. Everything that comes out is "It's there! I swear it! I've seen it in testing and it looks great, but we can't tell you anything". I'm back in the game for 2 months, but that's only for low level grouped questing with a few friends.

[Watto44]

It's certainly a fairly vacuous response, but it's at least acknowledging that there is an issue that needs to be addressed. Previously responses were usually along the lines of "you've got Dire Maul, reputation grind, Zul'Gurub and soon AQ. Cry more." It also outlines an - albeit incredibly vague - plan for dealing with the casual endgame. (ie. questing and stat progression.)

Personally, I'm over the moon that they're looking into questing at level 60. I really enjoy the long quest chains - like the Battle for Darrowshire chain - and would love to see some more quests along those lines implemented. (*cough*Druid quests would be great too.*cough*)

[fractaled]

It doesn't help that in another post concerning the lack of 5-man stuff lately, they basically said that no new 5-man dungeons are coming until the expansion.  They say they want to add all this new stuff, but I see little backing up these claims.  Everything that comes out is "It's there!  I swear it!  I've seen it in testing and it looks great, but we can't tell you anything".  I'm back in the game for 2 months, but that's only for low level grouped questing with a few friends.
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Yeah, I don't know how many distinct groups of players they have.

Off hand, there seem to be: raiders, pvpers, soloers, small-groupers, crafters, and farmers (not to mention a few that WoW doesn't cater at all to). Of those, I'd say only the PvP group is sated (if not necessarily rewarded). But for the rest, there is only enough content for ~6 months at "casual" speed. And I'm guessing that they didn't ramp up their content production teams fast enough, or didn't have the infastructure in place to handle the leading edge of the "more more more" crowd.

I'd place myself in the small-groupers and crafters. And the lack of new 5-man dungeons sucks. I think they should invest in semi-random content. Just mixing up the mob spawns would be a start. Also, adjustable-difficulty instances would be nice to.

[MongoJerry]

Personally, I'm over the moon that they're looking into questing at level 60. I really enjoy the long quest chains - like the Battle for Darrowshire chain - and would love to see some more quests along those lines implemented. (*cough*Druid quests would be great too.*cough*)

Yes, that one sippet in an otherwise "a whole lot of nothing" post sounded intriguing. I've always been a questaholic, and I've been consistently frustrated by how hard it is to find groups willing to do some of the highest level outdoor quests, because unless there's some incredible item reward at the end of a quest chain, people ask, "Why bother?"

[Raelynn]

Yeah, I don't know how many distinct groups of players they have.

Off hand, there seem to be: raiders, pvpers, soloers, small-groupers, crafters, and farmers (not to mention a few that WoW doesn't cater at all to). Of those, I'd say only the PvP group is sated (if not necessarily rewarded). But for the rest, there is only enough content for ~6 months at "casual" speed. And I'm guessing that they didn't ramp up their content production teams fast enough, or didn't have the infastructure in place to handle the leading edge of the "more more more" crowd.

I'd place myself in the small-groupers and crafters. And the lack of new 5-man dungeons sucks. I think they should invest in semi-random content. Just mixing up the mob spawns would be a start. Also, adjustable-difficulty instances would be nice to.
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If they're smart, they can help alleviate this issue starting at the expansion. With the expansion, things will be on relatively even ground. There will be approximately equal number of instances for all levels. From there out they should vary what comes out when. In the history of WoW, they basically front loaded the 5-man stuff, then brought out all the raid stuff. This caused the biggest problems with the new content currently.

[Arnulf]

# Questing at 60
We realize that at 60, strong incentive for questing evaporates. Obviously, this is due primarily to experience rewards or the lack thereof at 60.We are developing methods to alter, yet reinvigorate questing for players who have reached the level cap.
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A thought that occured to me while reading this paragraph.. when I previously thought I'd like to explore the world more than to develop and "level up" my character, I discovered to my unending amazement that I like and adapted the achiever mentality to my heart's content.

But still, the quests are not merely a means to get there. I also like to read their backstories and enjoy some of their more weird twists on the game world. Although in the end it doesn't change the world as such, only the way you see it. To explain: with "world" I mean the world of Azeroth, not ours.

Unfortunately pre-60 I was often with groups where we charged through the dungeons (instances) and while picking up quests there was allright, it was almost impossible to read through the text not to mention relish in their context while 4 other people were positively breathing down one's neck. :)

Few and far between were the runs where I was able to explore the place at my leisure. I thank MongoJerry for his excellent stories about Scholomance and Lower Blackrock Spire. It was because of them that I made it a point to force some friends of mine to literally clear Lower Blackrock Spire and look into each nook and cranny. From finding and returning the lost package 'til defeating Wyrmthalak and even Urok Doomhowl. Everyone agreed that it was a fun and exciting run despite its exhausting length.

Well, what I'm trying to say is that people pickup quests and just see the rewards and disregard what it was originally standing for. Not with an ounce of regret in their voice I've heard numerous times the reiterating of the steps to complete a mission while at the same time being totally oblivious as to why do this in the first place. Although in rare cases I still don't know why I had to do something to achieve something else which seemed adversely to the quest giver's goals.

I do not exactly know how to bring people to take in that with more languish strides than I normally experienced in World of Warcraft. Probably nothing can be done about it. I mostly blame the modern way of life where even spare time has to be divided into precious chunks of two-hour slices.

-Arnulf

[Raelynn]

(*cough*Druid quests would be great too.*cough*)
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Eyonix (I believe) mentioned that the druid epic quest is currently midway through design I believe.

[Quark]

I think the blue post was along the lines of "I've seen the druid concept epic quest, it's awesome," then went on to mention how to not expect the class quests anytime soon.

I still think it's a complete jip that 8 classes out of 9 got a Sunken Temple quest with nice, varied rewards while druids got left out.

[Zarathustra]

Eyonix (I believe) mentioned that the druid epic quest is currently midway through design I believe.
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Disclaimer: My main is a Druid. It is the class I most enjoy in WoW, and that is considering 2 alts at 60 and 4 more in their 40s. So if this post comes across as biased, that is the reason.

The biggest complaint Druid players have regarding quests is not the lack of an epic-item-omg-shiney-reward quest, but the entire skill/talent progression after level 16 that is lacking. I have to say I was amazed playing my Druid in December of 2004 and seeing that there was a quest for every new skill I was gaining. Talk to the Great Bear Spirit? Awesome. A long quest chain to find the source of a poison in Darkshore, culminating in receiving the ability to cure poisons? Rock on. Retrieval of the pieces of a sacred amulet in areas I'd never even HEARD of (I remember thinking, "where the hell is the Gold Coast Quarry?"), swimming into waters where both my breath and fatigue bar are making things tense (before they made the quest easier to cater to the whiners), and then receiving a new travel form for underwater? Wow.

I was drawn into the class. I felt a true progression with my character as he "learned" his new skills. Then level 20 arrived and it was time for Cat Form.

*pays 30 copper*
*learns Cat Form*

Wait... what? That's it? There's a Great Cat Spirit in southern Moonglade begging for a quest to be put in place... and I just buy the skill?

It wouldn't have been as noticeable if not for the rich backstory and very involved plot in early levels, and I'm quite please with the job they did through a Druid's teens. But after that point there is absolutely no progression in the way of quests.

I truly WANT to see a difficult quest line leading to Remove Curse. I want the necessity to seek out a powerful Druid of the Talen to learn Hurricane now that every Druid has it available to him. I want to see a long-distance delivery that outlaws the use of any flight paths, hearth stones, or teleportation, with a time limit, ultimately rewarding with travel form. I want to return to the Great Bear Spirit and accept some important task in order to learn Dire Bear Form.

The same goes for all classes. I saw much of the same with my Warlock in that the quests in his early levels were amazing and really drew me in to the flavor of the class, and then abruptly ended.

I'm glad they're working on an epic quest for Druids. I'm sure I'll enjoy it with my 60 Druid, and do hope the reward will be as well implemented as Benediction is for Priests. But I think the many levels of progression before these epic quests is more important, and should be worked on right now to enrich the game on the way to 60.

[Watto44]

I agree with Zarathustra. I used to log onto the test realms just to check if a cat form quest had been implemented. But when they changed the cost of cat form from 30c to a more appropriate amount for the level I figured it was something that wasn't going to happen.

It seems to be the same for every class though. For the first 16-20 levels the quests to a great job of getting you involved in the class in a - *gasp* - roleplaying sort of way. Then? Nothing until the ST quests and - if you're lucky - an epic quest.

However, as much as I'd like to see a cat form/sexibus/miscellenous-class-skill quest, I actually think that the developers time could be better spent elsewhere. The class skill quests were something that should have been implemented before launch. Given the chaos that follow the launch and the pressure to keep improving the endgame content, it seems highly unlikely that any class will be getting their skill quests.