1.9 Paladin build

[Kevin]

So with this information: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post744419

I spoke with the developers about a few things today, and I wanted to update you accordingly.

I primarily approached them regarding the endgame role of the Paladin. I mentioned that many members of the Paladin community are dissatisfied with the role they play in raids, and expounded upon the many points you've brought up concerning your class in the endgame content.

Regarding raids, it's a simple social fact that if a class has a heal spell, they'll be asked to heal in a raid. Every class which can heal others effectively thus does so in endgame content. You're not alone in this switch of "role"; it happens to other classes that play far differently when levelling up. Healing trumps all in the minds of many.

Just because you're not the only class that can heal, however, does not mean you -- as a Paladin -- are not a valuable asset in raids. Paladin heals generate far less threat by design (Shaman do not have this luxury), allowing you to heal and keep healing. While the sheer numbers of an individual heal in your arsenal may not be impressive, combined with the mana efficiency, threat reduction both passive and applied, and survivability, you're a long-lasting, invaluable healer. Your auras are stronger than the Horde equivalents. Your buffs can be applied with surgical precision to give players precisely the edge they need. The Tranquil Air Totem has got nothing on Salvation. You can easily pick and choose who gets the threat reduction and who doesn't -- the Shaman has to be exceedingly careful to place it nowhere near the tank. The breadth of blessings used increases with every Paladin added, thus increasing the benefit significantly. You're not just there to augment others -- you're keeping your fellows alive while being low maintenance. No, you're not up there in the thick of it, but neither are a lot of classes that normally do so outside of raids.

I asked about Holy Shield as well, and why +holy or +spell damage didn't apply to it while applying to other abilities. The response I received is that, under certain easily achieveable conditions and combinations, Holy Shield was devastating with + spell damage applied. Rather than decrease the effectiveness of the base ability and still have the problem later on, they changed it so + spell damage no longer applies to it. I'm aware this is unpopular -- as is any reduction in power -- but please understand that we don't make such calls unless they're absolutely necessary. They tested these changes time and again and the results with Holy Shield were unbalanced. I realize this sort of change is particularly unpopular with Holy Shield's move to a 31-point talent, but I do want to stress that the talent trees are primarily about giving players more options as they go deeper into a tree rather than becoming more powerful.

I apologize if you were seeking large changes from the way Paladins are in 1.9 -- they will not be coming, to my knowledge. The developers consider their work on the talent review complete. Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.

I figure it's time to just give up and go full on buffbot. I was expecting this to happen, it was part of the reason that I changed Taranna to feral. Gnolack tanks, Taranna does my DPS and now Balador will be my healer.

It almost seems like they want you to do a build like this:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...500000000000000

for full on buffbot goodness. Get all the improved blessing and improve one of your auras too. GoGo BuffBot power!

But I was thinking that I still wanted to be able to solo a little so I was looking at a different build:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...052033500000000

Gets me a little bit more damage with the one hander from Righteousness. Lets me judge the seals a little better and gives me a bit more defensive capabilities (vindication seemed to proc a fair bit on the PTR).

Not having lasting judgement though means I won't be judging seals on the bosses in MC, which is what that talent is for since you don't need it too badly in solo play.

Any other thoughts for a paladin that is fine with being a healer (hence the deep holy build) but would still like to be able to do a little bit more than just heal and buff in a small group?

Just trying to figure out what I want to do after they decided that paladins need to be a single role class. Unlike druids who can and do still tank, do DPS, and heal in Molten Core and shaman who still do DPS and heal in Molten Core. They want paladins to heal and buff only. Don't tank, don't heal. We still won't be able to off tank or play save the healer like a shaman can because we have no aggro control still, and while I didn't get a chance to test it like I did the lowered DPS, I hear it got worse than it is now too, but oh well.

[Arnulf]

So with this information: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post744419

[...]
It almost seems like they want you to do a build like this:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...500000000000000

[...]
for full on buffbot goodness.  Get all the improved blessing and improve one of your auras too.  GoGo BuffBot power!
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Very well. I'll probably try this talent distribution myself after 1.9. The possibility of having an instant FoL every 30 seconds is something new for me.

Or maybe I'll do a slightly different one:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...000000000000000

I wonder why you put a point in Consecration, though. It doesn't serve any purpose, or does it?

-Arnulf

[Kevin]

Very well. I'll probably try this talent distribution myself after 1.9. The possibility of having an instant FoL every 30 seconds is something new for me.

Or maybe I'll do a slightly different one:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...000000000000000

I wonder  why you put a point in Consecration, though. It doesn't serve any purpose, or does it?

-Arnulf
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As one of the only transformative skills a paladin gets I figured it was worth picking up. Even though I'm speccing to be a healer, I know that priests and druids are better at it. This is still a way in smaller raids to help keep mobs off them longer since it is mostly an AoE taunt.

Getting to improved concentration aura does have some good group benefits too pushing many priests to 30% chance (since most have the talent) to avoid any interruptiong effects.

[Tal]

For the second build I would drop a point from conviction and pick up Seal of Command. Even with the nerfs it seems like a pretty nice spell to have for times when you're not sword and board.

[Kevin]

For the second build I would drop a point from conviction and pick up Seal of Command. Even with the nerfs it seems like a pretty nice spell to have for times when you're not sword and board.
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I thought it about but on the PTR (Public Test Realms) my DPS was pretty much no different with Command or Righteousness up with either a one hander or a two hander with Righteousness added damage to every swing now. Though I suppose having more burst damage on a stunned mob isn't a bad idea. I just didn't see a heck of a lot of difference in DPS with the two, but I didn't do exhaustive testing either. I suppose though the old rule of one point for a new skill is generally better than one point to buff something else applies here. :)

[Garrin]

Your builds look like they'll get the job done. Holy is going to be the new retribution. Thanks to divine favor being so far down the tree.

I want to keep Garrins play style somewhat the same, and i came up with this build
Garrin's Lets stay the same build

As you can see it's basically going after as much of the same things as he had from before. I don't know what i'd do without divine favor now that i've had it for so long, that's why i dug so deep into holy. But most of the old ret spells are easily accessable from the other two trees.

Thoughts? comments?

[Kevin]

Your builds look like they'll get the job done.  Holy is going to be the new retribution.  Thanks to divine favor being so far down the tree.

I want to keep Garrins play style somewhat the same, and i came up with this build
Garrin's Lets stay the same build

As you can see it's basically going after as much of the same things as he had from before.  I don't know what i'd do without divine favor now that i've had it for so long, that's why i dug so deep into holy.  But most of the old ret spells are easily accessable from the other two trees.

Thoughts? comments?
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I would take the 2 points out of unyielding faith, and one out of divine int or str and get 3 in vindication. If it applies to mobs in MC you are going to cut damage to the tanks and ease healing a fair bit. It's been a better talent in solo play on the PTR than I expected it to be.

I wonder about something like this:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...500053510203150

Gets vengance back, loses kings though. You can play around with the points in divine int/divine str. Maybe even drop one of them and get the healing power buff and something else. Would be one of the better ways to maximize your 2H DPS and keep divine favor. It was something I was considering keeping on Balador to keep playstyle the same until I found that the full holy build pretty much kept play style the same anyway.

And depending upon what other paladins do we could go from 75% of the paladins having kings to just about none.

[Garrin]

And depending upon what other paladins do we could go from 75% of the paladins having kings to just about none.
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All because of DF taking 21 points just to get to and we all still want 2h'ers for solo/pvp.


along the lines of pvp however (since that's becoming a large focus for me as well as raiding)

eye for an eye - I don't see it being used much outside of pvp, though gettin smashed with a spell from gehennas, or ony it might be somewhat helpful. I know i'm terrible about getting picked out for those. Eye for an Eye is looking more and more useful the more i look at it. Especially when the horde locks are shootin imp shadow bolts for two hit kills....-.-

Unyielding Faith - this is something i looked at as a very big pvp bonus with all those fear bombs. Especially when my main goal is to follow a tank and combat heal. This way i have a better chance of resisting the fear, and cleansing the warrior to keep the push alive.

Vengance - It would definitely be nice to get it back. But depending on the utility of UF, i may or may not go after it.

[Arnulf]

All because of DF taking 21 points just to get to and we all still want 2h'ers for solo/pvp. 
along the lines of pvp however (since that's becoming a large focus for me as well as raiding)

eye for an eye -  I don't see it being used much outside of pvp, though gettin smashed with a spell from gehennas, or ony it might be somewhat helpful.  I know i'm terrible about getting picked out for those.  Eye for an Eye is looking more and more useful the more i look at it.  Especially when the horde locks are shootin imp shadow bolts for two hit kills....-.-

Unyielding Faith -  this is something i looked at as a very big pvp bonus with all those fear bombs.  Especially when my main goal is to follow a tank and combat heal.  This way i have a better chance of resisting the fear, and cleansing the warrior to keep the push alive. 

Vengance - It would definitely be nice to get it back.  But depending on the utility of UF, i may or may not go after it.
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Eye for an Eye, Vindication, Vengeance, even Pursuit of Justice are such nice toys to have. Unfortunately they are also a kind of luxury. If I would do PvP only and if (and that's a very big IF) had the Judgement set I'd certainly would go after all these nifty talents and try to rock the BGs. ;)

-Arnulf

[Kevin]

So after doing some PvP the other day and thinking some more about paladin threat and aggro (a good theroycraft thread on the Basin about it here: http://www.theamazonbasin.com/wow/forums/i...howtopic=10322). I've decided that I will still go 31 Holy but the other 20 points will be placed to maximize the annoyance factor to horde in BG's. The good horde teams know how to deal with me and can neutralize me pretty fast and this won't help, but when the horde is stupid I want to help make sure I annoy them even more and help keep the warrior I'm with alive. This actually makes improved concentration aura a very attractive option not only making it 50% damage interruption for anyone else in it but adding 15% chance to resist things like silence, kick, shield bash, counterspell. You know really piss the horde off (like putting green whelp armor on the druid flag carrier). Guardian's Favor becomes a must so that rogues that don't use all thier tools can be taunted by doing more blessings of protection and bandage while they keep auto attacking (instead of gouging and bandaging themselves or doing something else)

I will still raid so the 31 in holy talents help with that too.

I end up with 2 "filler points" in both trees though. So thoughts on tweaking it would be appreciated.

Blizzard Talent Calc of build


Holy Talents - 31 points
# Divine Strength - rank 1/5: Filler to get to 31 points
# Divine Intellect - rank 5/5: More mana = more healing and the rare DPS adding
# Spiritual Focus - rank 5/5: Have to have. Love to cast through damage
# Healing Light - rank 3/3: More healing
# Consecration - rank 1/1: Rank 1 consecrate is free with imp blessing of wisdom, stop rogue sapping when guarding the flag. Besides it's my only AoE for most things
# Unyielding Faith - rank 2/2: Piss off rogues, priests, warriors and warlocks even more could have some raid benefit too.
# Illumination - rank 5/5: A free heal now and then is good.
# Improved Blessing of Wisdom - rank 2/2: 6 more mana/5 nice in raids and nice for some PvP stuff too.
# Divine Favor - rank 1/1: Forcing a crit heal that becomes free with illumination. Good.
# Holy Power - rank 5/5: More crit chances with heals and maybe the rare Holy Shock
# Holy Shock - rank 1/1: One more chance to get the druid killed before he gets out of range.

Protection Talents - 20 points
# Improved Devotion Aura - rank 5/5: Really a filler talent though more armor for the times I run this isn't a bad thing. Helps keep squishies alive better.
# Precision - rank 3/3: Filler but when I do swing it's nice to hit even if for piddly damage.
# Guardian's Favor - rank 2/2: Essential for the annoyance factor. 3 minute vs 5 minute cooldown on protection and make a slow flag carrier potential free (purge) of snares longer is nice.
# Toughness - rank 1/5: Filler point to unlock the 15 point talents but keeps me alive longer vs warriors and rogues (who should generally not be attacking me kill me with magic...)
# Blessing of Kings - rank 1/1: This deep gotta get the new blessing.
# Improved Righteous Fury - rank 3/3: I still 5 man, if I want any chance at holding aggro I need this, this is a choice soley for the PvE I do and still will do so this is not going.
# Improved Hammer of Justice - rank 2/3: More frequent stuns, I want 3 points in it but would have to drop kings, imp righteous fury, or holy shock.
# Improved Concentration Aura - rank 3/3: I generally don't bother with other auras in the BG, this is the one I tend to keep up for the job I do, though I do change aura out at times (but the speed of the game and my skills make that more dangerous for me since I can't always process all the info I need to as it is). Helps a bit for some party member types with the 50% interrupt avoidance chance but really it's the 15% chance for the other stuff that I want. Can't rely on it but boy when it works the annoyance factor will be huge. :)

As mentioned Divine Str is a filler talent so I can have 31 in the tree. Debating on lasting judgement as 20 vs 10 seconds for light and wisdom make them more usable on MC bosses if there isn't a paladin with more points in the talent there, and gives light a little use in PvP too as every little bit of "spill over" healing can help and really with what I expect to do not much else that I can judge in PvP that matters. 1 point in imp lay on hands could mean it is usable once every BG with the wait between matches and game length being what they are now. The 15% armor for 2 minutes would help with the annoyanc as well. Yeah I think this might be the better place to spend that point.

Improved devo aura vs Redoubt. Redoubt could help me live a little longer after I get hit with a crit. I use a sword and board in BG's and until I get lucky enough to get a good 2 handed caster weapon I will in MC/BWL too. (GG doesn't get good handed weapons on anyone usually, much better luck with 1 handers). But upping block chance by 30% after a crit hit would help some. Improve Devo would be more useful for raids and 5 mans even if it is just 184 more armor from the aura than without the talent. It's kinda like using a scroll of protection on everyone in the party. Neither talent is much good for anything but filler though.

Precision vs More in toughness. I had to give a nod to some more damage, and hitting more = more damage. I'm already pretty "thick skinned" so 6% more armor for items, while being nice isn't huge. Besides if I do ever attempt to tank since pretty much all my aggro will be from swinging a weapon I don't want to miss.

So there is 1 point in each tree that can really go anywhere and there may be a few talents that could be completely removed or changed.

Thoughts, comments, concerns? :)

[oldmandennis]

Shaman rarely do damage in the core, and just about never on boss fights unless it's a scramble with the tank down trying to get the last couple percent down. Even our guild, which is considered to be "healer heavy" simply does not have the healer mana to spare, in addition to the aggro problems.

[Kevin]

Shaman rarely do damage in the core, and just about never on boss fights unless it's a scramble with the tank down trying to get the last couple percent down.  Even our guild, which is considered to be "healer heavy" simply does not have the healer mana to spare, in addition to the aggro problems.
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That's too bad. I figured they would since even our holy/disc priests throw out smites and holy fires on trash mobs, I see them at times in well controled Mag and Garr fights too. I figured that shaman would be able to at least throw lightning from a distance.

[Skandranon]

Still on the fence with respeccing Katrin. I'd like to see what proportion of the Avarice pallies get Kings before properly deciding. I've worked up three options that I am considering.

Option 1. 31 Holy, 20 Ret. I heal, heal, heal, and solo ok.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...540050510000000

Positives: Improved Might and Wis, Holy Shock for insta healing, and all the healing goodies. Holy Power + Consecration means that my SoC/HShock will crit decently often in solo.

Negatives: No Kings. Requires Int gear even for soloing (and I don't have enough of that right now).

Option 2. 29 Holy, 11 Prot, 11 Ret. Raids love me. Solo? Not so much.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...550000010000000

Positives: Imp Might, Imp Wis, Kings. Lots of blessings to go around while retaining the majority of the healing power of the 31 holy build.

Negatives: No holy shock (not much of a loss). Very poor at soloing - yeah, I've got SoC, but not a lot of the good talents to make it useful.

Option 3: 30 Ret, 21 Holy. Solos much better. Raids ok, but not great.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...502350510003150

Positives: Vengeance and 2h spec for solo damage. Allows me to keep most of the Str/Sta gear I already have. Keeps some healing capability for raids.

Negatives: The only improved blessing is Might, limiting me to Might, Light, and Salv in raids.

It kind of depends on how much I intend to raid, and the answer to that is, some, but schedule limitations mean not a lot. But when I do come on raids, I don't want to be a liability.

[Kevin]

Still on the fence with respeccing Katrin.  I'd like to see what proportion of the Avarice pallies get Kings before properly deciding.  I've worked up three options that I am considering.

Option 1.  31 Holy, 20 Ret.  I heal, heal, heal, and solo ok.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...540050510000000

Positives:  Improved Might and Wis, Holy Shock for insta healing, and all the healing goodies.  Holy Power + Consecration means that my SoC/HShock will crit decently often in solo.

Negatives: No Kings.  Requires Int gear even for soloing (and I don't have enough of that right now).

Option 2.  29 Holy, 11 Prot, 11 Ret.  Raids love me.  Solo?  Not so much.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...550000010000000

Positives:  Imp Might, Imp Wis, Kings.  Lots of blessings to go around while retaining the majority of the healing power of the 31 holy build.

Negatives: No holy shock (not much of a loss).  Very poor at soloing - yeah, I've got SoC, but not a lot of the good talents to make it useful.

Option 3: 30 Ret, 21 Holy.  Solos much better.  Raids ok, but not great.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...502350510003150

Positives:  Vengeance and 2h spec for solo damage.  Allows me to keep most of the Str/Sta gear I already have.  Keeps some healing capability for raids. 

Negatives:  The only improved blessing is Might, limiting me to Might, Light, and Salv in raids.

It kind of depends on how much I intend to raid, and the answer to that is, some, but schedule limitations mean not a lot.  But when I do come on raids, I don't want to be a liability.
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As for solo. If you get the +int gear from my limited testing on PTR a 31 holy build isn't that far behind a 30 ret build in DPS anymore. But you need to have benediction and improved judgement to make it work and it will chew the mana pool. Of course with the changes to SoC you need to judge more often to get 1.8 level DPS with a 1.9 ret build. At least I did.

Balador will be getting kings but Balador will likely see about as many avarice raids as Katrin so I don't know if that helps you all that much. So you might want to look at the DPS potential of holy again. Righteouness hits every swing now and in my, again limited, testing the DPS it did (since it scales with weapon speed) was very similar to what Seal of Command was doing. Keep in mind that Peacekeeper was my best 2 hander for testing, and I was using Thrash and some 35 DPS +22 AP green sword for one handers.

If you don't want to drink all the time in solo (something I never did in 1.8 but seemed to need more in 1.9) you'll need judge wisdom on pretty much everything but judged crusader + righteousness does a nice DPS job with a holy shock or judgement thrown in there. I think a heavy DPS build will need improved judgement and benediction though.

So what do those translate into for you. Well your raid build is very much like the one I posted earlier but you use SoC instead of HS/Righteousness for the damage. You might be better getting HS back. It gives you a solo damage/pull option and you can do the judged crusader/Righteousness, eve with a two hander. That combo was something like 110 holy damage added a swing with peacemaker. You get a bit better burst control with HS and judgements. Though the burst DPS you can do with a judge command on a stunned target is a fair bit to give up. You could just drop command and one point in benediction and max holy power then get holy shock. You might solo better that way and you get even more raid utility.

Your 3rd build is your strongest soloer as you said. I have found though that vindication procs frequently enough that it does actually have a noticable impact in PvE. It is still mostly a PvP talent though. But yeah you lose a lot of flex for raiding. I don't think losing kings will be that bad though.

Personally I think you might want to try the 2nd build with a few tweaks. Try life withouth Seal of Command and see how it goes. I'll help you raise the money to spec into what you posted if you really don't like it though. :)

[Skandranon]

So what do those translate into for you.  Well your raid build is very much like the one I posted earlier but you use SoC instead of HS/Righteousness for the damage.  You might be better getting HS back.  It gives you a solo damage/pull option and you can do the judged crusader/Righteousness, eve with a two hander.  That combo was something like 110 holy damage added a swing with peacemaker.  You get a bit better burst control with HS and judgements.  Though the burst DPS you can do with a judge command on a stunned target is a fair bit to give up.  You could just drop command and one point in benediction and max holy power then get holy shock.  You might solo better that way and you get even more raid utility.
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It really centres around the availability of Kings. Frankly, I'm highly unimpressed by the Protection talents I have to take in order to get to Kings: I'd like to have the best of both worlds with SoC and HS.

What I'm probably going to do is grab the 31holy/20ret build and experiment with SoC (no shock) versus HS + SoR, testing downtimes and killing speeds. If I find that HS plus SoR is good enough for me, I may just drop SoC.

[Kevin]

It really centres around the availability of Kings.  Frankly, I'm highly unimpressed by the Protection talents I have to take in order to get to Kings: I'd like to have the best of both worlds with SoC and HS.

What I'm probably going to do is grab the 31holy/20ret build and experiment with SoC (no shock) versus HS + SoR, testing downtimes and killing speeds.  If I find that HS plus SoR is good enough for me, I may just drop SoC.
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Yeah I agree that the prot talents to get kings suck, that's why I focused my talent choices in prot on PvP stuff and went deeper in prot to try and get a little more aggro control and PvP annoy the horde factor.

[Garrin]

My build is focused on getting back to my old build while snatching up pvp utility and raidability in the process, i know it's hard to do both, but Garrin does both on a regular basis. So i need to do my best to find a good solid all around build that i know the playstyle well.

Here's what i've gone with: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...500050510200000


If i'm not happy with it in a few weeks or so, i'll be respeccing to possibly one of the above. We'll see how it goes.

[LavCat]

For Tribade I have pretty much decided on:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...052303410200000


This is after I had previously decided to shift to a protection build! Some of my choices are a bit unconventional and we will see how they work out. This build is not too different from how she was before the patch. She was always Holy/Retribution since talents were first introduced.

I will sleep on it overnight before I actually assign the points. You can't, as they say, have everything.

[Kevin]

So I found out that the improved concentration aura doesn't help against shield bash, frost shock, counterspell or priest silence. So that talent is still pretty much worthless. Oh well.

With the respec costing me 17 gold (most of that from greater blessings) I'm not in any hurry to respec again.

[Frag]

So I found out that the improved concentration aura doesn't help against shield bash, frost shock, counterspell or priest silence.  So that talent is still pretty much worthless.  Oh well.
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Yeah, good ol' frostshock... :P

~Frag

P.S. Earthshock :D