Honest Question

[Doc]

Ok, really. Discussion time.

What exactly is PG13?

In a PG13 flick, you are allowed brief to extended exposure of upper frontal nudity. Breasts. It depends on the story, and a lot of other factors. In fact, you can have complete full frontal nudity both male and female in a PG flick. (Like say, as an expression of culture, say, African Tribesmen) Which means in a movie for little kids, it is entirely possible to have lots of exposed flesh jiggling around... Which still probably offends some people... Like the librarians who go through National Geographic and draw underwear on the natives. However, while it is somehow wrong to show the body, it is still perfectly acceptable to show graphic representations of murder and homicide in a PG13 flick. Somebody mind explaining how this works to me?

You are allowed to drop multiple F-Bombs. So long as they are spaced apart by x-number of minutes. S-Bombs too. But you can't say obcenities starting with mother or ending in sucker. Like Carlin said, those are just to busy, with to many hard "k" sounds. They just scare people.

Now, if the Lounge is rated PG13... Why is it that if somebody drops an F-Bomb, a filter nails it and turns it in to something else? Why is it we can show scantily clad videogame vixens in various screenshots but a partially decomposed horse posted by Warlocke gets the axe? We have had screenshots dipicting the wonton carnage of a Necromancer going bananas with corpse explosion, showing the whole screen with blood and gore everywhere... And chain casting blood golem to leave piles upon piles of disgusting guts and gore scattered all over Kurast leaving poor Ormus looking a wee bit green... But people raise objections over the words "raisins and cocktail weenies."

Thoughts? Opinions? Flames?

[DeeBye]

I'm an adult and I can handle a swear word or two.

I think the Lounge should loosen up a bit as far as language goes. We are all adults here.

CRAP DAMN FART!

[Doc]

I'm an adult and I can handle a swear word or two.

I think the Lounge should loosen up a bit as far as language goes.  We are all adults here.

CRAP DAMN FART!
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Potty mouth. :w00t:

Seriously though. What exactly is PG13? Other than your profane potty mouth.

[Griselda]

I think it's probably because we're all out to get you.

[Guest]

You can only say "#$%&" three times in the course of a PG 13 movie.

EDIT: As I think about it Pete called me a "#$%&er" several times in the course of the lounge. So at some point in the past it was possible.

But I think we have shown time and time again that we dont act like adults given even slight provication, so we probably do need the rule against saying "#$%&".

[Doc]

You can only say "#$%&" three times in the course of a PG 13 movie.
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Well, I think I have a one in five chance of guessing what that word is. :blink:

You can even slip profanity in to a G rated movie. In Transformers the Movie back in 1986, you had a #$%& and a #$%& in a G rated movie for kids. And you know, I don't think anybody actually cared.

[Occhidiangela]

Ok, really. Discussion time.

What exactly is PG13?

Thoughts? Opinions? Flames?
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1. Entropy.

2. You are old enough to know better.

It doesn't matter that movies with PG-13 drop profanity now and again. They do so in an attempt to "be edgy" based on the perceived notion that without profanity, they'll lose teenage market share and "relevance" in a social context that has long since departed from civility. In a related note, George Carlin's overuse of profanity in his current form is instructive. That is a guy who knows language and words, and how to be funny, yet he too falls into the trap. He has gone from the Seven Words being funny to talking like an angry sailor with too many beers in him. This has taken him from PG-13 and witty to tritely profane, though still funny if one can put up with the packaging.

Maybe Lurkers would rather not put up with some of your packaging.

The standard desired at the Lounge is to keep it a bit cleaner than George Carlin and Chris Rock.

There is an art to dropping a double entendre now and again, to making a sly reference with a nod and a wink, to slipping in a dirty joke that catches the reader by surprise. None of that requires fifth grade fascination with "naughty words" to draw attention to itself.

The word filter is a clue. It underlines the guiding principle of "keep it clean."

If you want to play "semantics" with PG-13, which is a guideline rather than discrete rule set, then we need to go back to my second sentence.

You are old enough to know better, and have been around this corner of the internet long enough to know and assimilate the tone and atmosphere desired in general discussion at the Lounge. You will also recognize the self imposed limits on profanity and coarse, scatological language the Lurkers generally follow.

You choose to continually and tiresomely push those limits, relying the the patience of Lurkers. The patience has apparently worn thin.

"But, Occhi," you may well protest, "What about free expression, free form interchange over a few beers (virtual) at the Lounge, and what about me? What about my individualism? What about my words? They are what set me apart and identify me as me!"

It isn't all about you. It isn't all about me. It isn't even all about Gris. (Sorry, Gris, had to break that one to you. :rolleyes: ) It's all about "the children." :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Sorry, couldn't resist the sarcasm. It's all about the Lurkers. (Hmmm, same thing, some days.)

Have you noticed anyone else on any of the Lounge forums continually playing the "dirty old man" and "I'll use coarse words to shock them" game? Does it ever occur to you that such a style is tolerated rather than desired?

Rather than accepting an entropic degradation (that was redundant, eh?) of Lounge discourse, the members as a group generally agree to abide by a norm of "keep it clean" and hold back the entropy. When one of them overcomes their intertia and general tolerance for fellow Lurker foibles, and comments on it, that is a sign that you are treading on the toes of Lounge norms. Of being a boor. Whybish's gentle reminder could have been a flame. It wasn't. It was "Hey, come on Doc, that's not on."

So, in a nutshell, after all of the above bombast, it's a matter of courtesy to fellow Lurkers. They just don't want to hear it. What they'd rather hear is your thoughts couched in other than deliberately coarse language. Or maybe I am wrong, and the general Lurker population wish you'd STFU. *shrugs* I don't know, I am not clairvoyant. Maybe most of them would rather I STFU. ( :blush: Notes own post count, and considers that last a distinct possibility. :blush: )

The shock value of the dirty old man bit, of the foul mouth for attention bit, has long since been overwritten by its tiresomeness.

Does it seem that I am repeating myself? Is this getting tiresome?

Repitition is one method of driving a point home, and is similar in this case to the two by four used on stubborn four footed equine hybrids.

If you wish to play the iconoclast, go for it with a great Huzzah! Lay on MacDuff!

The humorous value of the "Seven Words" "Shock The Man" schtick is so "freshman in high school" and "so I am a radical in 1973," and so trite, that it leaps to the attention of the Lurkers. As might be said in the South: " 'Round these parts, Doc, we don't much cotton to that sort of talk, as a habit."

Use wit, you've got it, we've all seen it. You're old enough to know, and old enough to know better, and old enough to . . . that's enough. I've been out there on the edge, not setting a good example often enough to know that it's all a matter of what I choose to do, the care I choose to take, before I hit "reply."

The choice, Doc, is yours.

In closing, I'll cite The Bard: Tis better to be a witty fool than a foolish wit.

Occhi

[[wcip]Angel]

The issue of cursing is not entirely dissimilar to that of the story of the little boy who cried "wolf".

The first couple of times "Wolf!!" (or !$£¤#) garnered enough attention - people came arunnin' to see what all the fuss was about. They were intrigued by what they heard, but were soon disappointed when they quickly realised there was little or no substance to the shocking cries of our young boy. In the end, "Wolf!!" would be ignored and dismissed as simple background noise, and when the small boy was really being mauled by the dreary wolf - when there really was a call for "Holy sh*t, there's a f*cking wolf eating me alive!!!" - there were no one there to pay him any heed.

The moral of the story: Curse when you must, not when you may.

[Munkay]

As the 'people' you are refering to that raised an objection over your use of "raisins and cocktail weenies" I'll try to clarify what exactly I was objecting to.

In the post Bryant Gumble's Olympic Spirit, Ammonium brought up the historical fact that the Olympics were performed naked. Your reply Doc said
[quote=Doc]Naked man ice skating = two raisins and a cocktail weenie.

NO THANKS. [/quote]

To which I replied

[quote=Munk]Was that comment really needed? whyBish's post opened my eyes to something I hadn't noticed. If a post of a similar nature was made by a new member, I'd be itching to tell them to shape up or ship out. Instead, I draw the line a bit further for older and more frequent posters on the lounge. The upshot of bringing this all up is simple, I think we've all become rather relaxed here. Although it can be a good thing, it isn't a good thing when it spills over into swearing or questionable posts.

I hope its apparent I'm not meaning this squarely at you Doc, although you are the most recent 'offender'. I'm certain that I too have made a number of questionable posts in my time. As whyBish already pointed out, we all adhere to the idea, "Keep it clean. It's PG-13 here".

We could all benefit from tightening up, just a little bit[/quote]

Since there seems to be a misenterpretation of what I am objecting to, I'll clarify my point: I believe that if a post like this was made by a new lounger, they'd quickly be flagged with "clean up or ship out" messages. Not necessarily because it is utterly offensive, but because it crosses the PG-13 line without adding anything constructive to the discussion.

As whyBish was kind enough to quote Elric, ""Keep it clean. It's PG-13 here. Computer games, even those rated "mature" by the ESRB, will have young kids playing them. There's no need to have swear words in your posts - they aren't conducive to intelligent debate or strategy discussion anyhow. We run a clean site and we hope that the posters will respect that."

It's fine to cross the 'PG-13' line from time to time, as you made clear in your post Doc PG-13 movies break the rules here and there. But its fine within certian context, when the offense is 'fitting' to the situation, when it is needed to add an important element to the movie. With that said, plain and simple I felt your post didn't fit any helpful context of the thread.

Now, posts are often times humorous tangents that don't necessarily need to add to a debate or discussion. But they serve a simple purpose, humor. But there is a context where it is appropriate on the lounge. Look at Occhi's post for example, which was a reply to the same topic

[Quote=Occhi] They are close enough to naked to attract lecherous fans. Naked might not work as well when things start flopping about during triple axels. The clothing serves to keep the presentation smooth and well packaged.

I can't believe I just wrote that.[/Occhi]

Occhi dances the line but in a way that isn't as questionably offensive. Now let me be clear here, your post was humorous Doc, but a type of humor that isn't generally accepted on the lurkerlounge. Its a type of shock humor. Crude quips can be funny, but here at the lounge they are frowned upon. If you doubt that, just ask yourself this, if a new poster came to the lounge and wrote "PENIS? GROSS!" do you think it would be long before a stream of "clean up or ship out" replies were made?

There's a line we generally adhere to, and its not as simple as defining swear words that are okay and others that are not. There is a context, a feel, that the lurkerlounge has developed for what is appropriate and what is not. Simply put, I felt it was outside of what is appropriate.

Cheers,

Munk

Edit: Fixed a few odds and ends

[eppie]

Like the librarians who go through National Geographic and draw underwear on the natives.

There are really people that do this?


Anyway, on the lounge; just like in the "cartoon riots"...i think you should have the freedom to say what you want, but a wise man should not want to deliberately piss people off. (The guy that was murdered in Holland (theo van Gogh) was an example, he was oftensaying things deliberately to hurt people as much as possible, I don't think that is the way to go.

Me, I like to curse...but I hate more curses using disease, than the "f-word" (just being sure).

Why they are so difficult with PG13? Because they are a bunch of poor idiots.... the same people that dub the swearwords in music (videos) on television...that is just to sad for words...I mean who are they kidding.

[Doc]

There are really people that do this?
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Yes. Come live where I live, in the Ultra Conservative South, and the librarians and other like minded types say that the heathen devil sodomites must conform to Western standards to be acceptable.

In short, a couple of librarians sit around before hours with a black Sharpie marker and draw briefs and tops on to the natives. They will even draw black boxes to cover animal coitus in said magazines.

No, I am not joking. The truth is far more funny.

Also, and this is my opinion, it makes it dirtier somehow. I am not sure I can explain how, but it does. Something about some fussy blue haired old bat scribbling out naughty bits with a Sharpie... What might Jung say about that?

[Doc]

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There is no other way of saying it. So I will come right out and say it.

Not an excuse, more of an explaination.

Since I have quit drinking, and dried out, my wit seems to have dried out with it. All I seem to be left with is verbal bludgeoning.

I write much the same way I think. The words spill out. I guess I have this whole conversational style of prose going on. I dunno. No clue. Haven't thought to much about it. But booze was the lubricant that allowed the refinery to run.

Lately, it seems everything is filled with more vitriol. Caustic barbs and blunt force. The refinery workers are on strike with out their daily tot of rum. I have noticed it away from the keyboard as well, on those occasions where I am required to do more than grunt or make guestures to indicate my desires. I was accused of havint Tourettes the other day. Which, er, really didn't help matters because I just turned loose on the accuser.

It's like being constipated. And no, I am not saying that to take this post in to the gutter, there is no way of saying how it really is. It's like there is a whole flood of stuff wanting to come out. I can feel the pressure. Aint nothing happening. And no, for once, this isn't toilet humour. People tell me to go back to drinking because at least somewhat charming and a lot nicer to be around when pleasantly plastered.

I am so confrontational and angry and I am not even sure what the hell is wrong with me any more. I just go around in a constant state of being pissed and I know it spills over in to my writings but I don't think I realise the degree of which it does, probably because I am in some sort of stage of denial or something perhaps where my brain refuses to acknowledge the full degree of my, er, well, see, I was going to write a word here that rhymes with "duckery" but I can't seem to think of the word I want in a polite context and now I don't know what to say. And have completely derailed my self to boot. Which in reality only causes more frusteration which in turn makes me want to unleash the acid barbs to make my self feel better.

[Occhidiangela]

Yes. Come live where I live, in the Ultra Conservative South, and the librarians and other like minded types say that the heathen devil sodomites must conform to Western standards to be acceptable.

In short, a couple of librarians sit around before hours with a black Sharpie marker and draw briefs and tops on to the natives. They will even draw black boxes to cover animal coitus in said magazines.

No, I am not joking. The truth is far more funny.

Also, and this is my opinion, it makes it dirtier somehow. I am not sure I can explain how, but it does. Something about some fussy blue haired old bat scribbling out naughty bits with a Sharpie... What might Jung say about that?
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Doc:

So what?

That digression smells of fish, species red herring. :P It is not germane to what you do, and how you present yourself here. The Lounge isn't your hypothetical, symbolic, stereotyped South. It is its own creature.

What are we to infer from this non sequitur, this misdirection? (Note: B for the Trolling effort.)

Is this a Freudian slip, a peak into your secret life? Do you wish to be measured by the blue hair standard, the very blue hairs you heap disdain on from time to time? Do you want your wheat measured by their bushel? Horrors, a rancid thought just struck me: is Doc a blue hair wannabe? :blink:

Occhi's betting money says, most emphatically, NO! No blue hair could pass muster in Greiz' Legion. ;)

Now that we have both demostrated the ability to digress into the realm of blue hair prudery, back to the topic you raised.

No, wait, I have a better idea.

Accept the answers provided by the respondents to your query as sincere, and as a reflection of the vox populi of the Lounge. Caveat: it is rash for anyone to claim to speak for all Lurkers, since any Lurker can delurk to comment. My guess is that many (if not all) Lurkers quietly agree with the feedback presented, since it fits into their acceptance of the norms initially captured in Elric's guidelines.

Occhi

[roguebanshee]

What exactly is PG13?
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It was created to accomodate Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom since the other ratings were inappropriate, at least according to Spielberg & Lucas on one of the Indiana Jones dvd sets.

[Doc]

Doc:

So what? 

That digression smells of fish, species red herring.  :P  It is not germane to what you do, and how you present yourself here.  The Lounge isn't your hypothetical, symbolic, stereotyped South.  It is its own creature. 

What are we to infer from this non sequitur, this misdirection? (Note:  B for the Trolling effort.)

Is this a Freudian slip, a peak into your secret life?  Do you wish to be measured by the blue hair standard, the very blue hairs you heap disdain on from time to time?  Do you want your wheat measured by their bushel?  Horrors, a rancid thought just struck me: is Doc a blue hair wannabe?  :blink:

Occhi's betting money says, most emphatically, NO!  No blue hair could pass muster in Greiz' Legion.  ;) 

Now that we have both demostrated the ability to digress into the realm of blue hair prudery, back to the topic you raised.

No, wait, I have a better idea. 

Accept the answers provided by the respondents to your query as sincere, and as a reflection of the vox populi of the Lounge.  Caveat: it is rash for anyone to claim to speak for all Lurkers, since any Lurker can delurk to comment.  My guess is that many (if not all) Lurkers quietly agree with the feedback presented, since it fits into their acceptance of the norms initially captured in Elric's guidelines. 

Occhi
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And some times, I just answer the question as I see it. Nothing less, and nothing more.

Nothing amiss, some times a kiss is just a kiss. Vis-a-vis.

[Rhydderch Hael]

The issue of cursing is not entirely dissimilar to that of the story of the little boy who cried "wolf".

The first couple of times "Wolf!!" (or !$£¤#) garnered enough attention - people came arunnin' to see what all the fuss was about. They were intrigued by what they heard, but were soon disappointed when they quickly realised there was little or no substance to the shocking cries of our young boy. In the end, "Wolf!!" would be ignored and dismissed as simple background noise, and when the small boy was really being mauled by the dreary wolf - when there really was a call for "Holy sh*t, there's a f*cking wolf eating me alive!!!" - there were no one there to pay him any heed.

The moral of the story: Curse when you must, not when you may.
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As Garak put it, I thought the moral of the story was to never tell the same lie twice.

[Tal]

Yes. Come live where I live, in the Ultra Conservative South, and the librarians and other like minded types say that the heathen devil sodomites must conform to Western standards to be acceptable.

In short, a couple of librarians sit around before hours with a black Sharpie marker and draw briefs and tops on to the natives. They will even draw black boxes to cover animal coitus in said magazines.

No, I am not joking. The truth is far more funny.

Also, and this is my opinion, it makes it dirtier somehow. I am not sure I can explain how, but it does. Something about some fussy blue haired old bat scribbling out naughty bits with a Sharpie... What might Jung say about that?
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As a professional in the library field I call shenanigans Doc. You allege you've come across these altered photographs and claim they were comitted by librarians looking to protect the children. No other way they could have gotten there? Certainly no one from the public is able to lay fingers on these sacred magazines at any time right?

Of course it makes more sense as a librarian to spend a couple of hours altering a photograph to make it "acceptable to western standards" than doing the unthinkable and ultimately more cost effective solution like not carrying a magazine deemed inappropriate for the collection. :rolleyes:

[Doc]

As a professional in the library field I call shenanigans Doc. You allege you've come across these altered photographs and claim they were comitted by librarians looking to protect the children. No other way they could have gotten there? Certainly no one from the public is able to lay fingers on these sacred magazines at any time right?

Of course it makes more sense as a librarian to spend a couple of hours altering a photograph to make it "acceptable to western standards" than doing the unthinkable and ultimately more cost effective solution like not carrying a magazine deemed inappropriate for the collection.  :rolleyes:
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Call it whatever you like. Things are different here. Backwards. Things like National Geographic and Harry Potter are clearly "of the devil." There is stuff going on right now to have Mr. Potter removed from the library, or at least removed from the children's section and moved to the "adult by request only" section where they keep books about dangerous subjects like witchcraft and any other faith other than Christianity. The state where I live has just outlawed evolution and has accepted ID. A phone call from a friend informs me that all of the books about evolution are going to be removed from the library soon, and replaced with books that preach the virtues of ID.

The Christian Exodus movement is alive and well in SC. They are in power now. Moving people here to establish a higher voter base so that they can have the power to turn SC in to some sort of Christian Utopia. They hope to get enough people living here that they can cast some sort of vote to secede from the US. (Which can happen where I live. We have the reserved right to become an independant commonwealth)

I don't expect you to understand that things are different here. But they are. It's quiet and sleepy and for the most part, the world turns a blind eye in this direction. Hell, even the people who live here, most of them keep their heads firmly in the sand. Like when the law changed about movie theatres... Any theatre showing R rated movies became an "adult business" over night. We went from having twenty something movie theatres, including several dollar theatres, to having, hrm, what is it, four or five now? And no dollar theatres. As "adult businesses" most of them were to close to schools or other "respectable and responsible" businesses, and they got closed down for all kinds of violations. Because R rated movies show boobies and such, a bunch of people made it their business to make sure that they were treated the same way as strip clubs. The one theatre that tried to keep it's head above water trying to show only family friendly fare closed within a year.

A book, a magazine, film, stuff you learn from, it is a very dangerous thing. They give people ideas. And there are people here that do their best to protect you from these dangerous liberating bits of media.

[Tal]

Call it whatever you like. Things are different here. Backwards. Things like National Geographic and Harry Potter are clearly "of the devil." There is stuff going on right now to have Mr. Potter removed from the library, or at least removed from the children's section and moved to the "adult by request only" section where they keep books about dangerous subjects like witchcraft and any other faith other than Christianity. The state where I live has just outlawed evolution and has accepted ID. A phone call from a friend informs me that all of the books about evolution are going to be removed from the library soon, and replaced with books that preach the virtues of ID.


A book, a magazine, film, stuff you learn from, it is a very dangerous thing. They give people ideas. And there are people here that do their best to protect you from these dangerous liberating bits of media.
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What is the name of your library system for independent research?

[Doc]

What is the name of your library system for independent research?
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You want to know our library system so you can peek in for your self? Greenville. Good luck with that. Yes, I am sure they are going to tell you all of their dirty secrets, with you being a yankee outsider and all. (No offense.) They will tell you the same thing they told WSPA news a few weeks ago. Everything is fine and dandy and your children can get an outstanding education at the library. Nothing is being hidden and visitors will have access to everything a normal library offers.

Perverts can still check out the noodie magines (kept behind the counter of course) but then the ladies of the library will go and gossip it all over town and over church suppers and people you don't even know are going to come up to you and offer to pray for your afflictions. And everybody in the library will stare at you during the checkout, during which the librarian doing the check out will announce in a frightningly loud voice "HERE IS YOUR PORNOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE. WE HOPE YOU ENJOY IT, PLEASE, HAVE A NICE DAY AND COME AGAIN!"

Ever since they listed Rolling Stone as porno, it's been a real pain to read up about the music world. I need to get a subscription.