Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

[SwissMercenary]

8 Years? More like 3. Or are you referencing some game 8 years ago? What do you want to see in Swordfighting simulations? For weapons to tangle? Bounce off the other guy? Get caught in bones? What are your expectations?

Anything that'd be at least on the level of weapons having their own collision boxes, so to speak. You'd probably have an idea of what I'm talking about, if you played Thief 1/2. And pardon about the '8' years, it's closer to what, 7 since the release of Thief?

For an example of how the system worked (As primitive as it was, swordfighting was a good enough challenge):

You had your sword. Clicking attacks. If your 'target' (The guy that the game thinks you are trying to attack) is to the left of you, you slash him right to left. If he's to the right of you, you slash him left to right. Depending on how long you hold the button before making the attack, you have differing levels of damage. The most damaging attack comes hits from above, and is somewhat more difficult to land, for a few reasons.

Your sword actually has a collision box. Your enemy's weapon does, too. If your sword slashes hit the enemy's weapon, they tend to be deflected. Sometimes the sword slips right off the weapon, sometimes your arm is 'pinned' by the weapon, and you have to disengage before making another attack.

You can use the built-in block function to get into a blocking stance (With, of course, reduced movement speed), in which case, the sword is raised to cover a diagonal in front of you. However, this far from guarantees immunity to enemy attacks. They can still slash under the sword, or over it. Also, (Especially those blasted hammerites) their hits often knock the sword out of the blocking position (Which they follow with a nice follow-up 'going to brain ye' hit, as it takes a bit of time to leave the blocking stance, and return to it).

Alternatively, you could block without entering the blocking stance - just by holding the sword in your hand. If you can put the blade in the path of the enemy swing, then you'll be allright (But at that point, the enemies like to close in on you, and slash you from inside your 'block' range - you can still block those hits, but it is much more difficult by far).

Of course, everything I've mentioned about blocking from the player's PoV, is used to some effect by the AI.

When facing multiple enemies, you really have little chance, unless you try isolate them - doorways, gates, and objects work nicely. As does a slashing retreat.

And to think that combat wasn't even the main point of the game...

You can do it that way.  If you hold down the left mouse button while attacking you get a power move.  You can also be moving left/right/forwards/backwards for different power moves.  There is also dodging, rather than blocking the blow with a shield you side step and swing.  Almost like real sword fighting huh?

And the special results of those power attacks are based on... Dice rolls. In a game played from a first-person perspective? Meh.

Does a left-right PA let you avoid the enemy's block stance, if he holds the weapon in like this: \

Not really, no. I think I've mentioned above the system that Thief had, 6, 7 years ago. As far as I can say, Oblivion hasn't done better.

[Drasca]

Your sword actually has a collision box. Your enemy's weapon does, too. If your sword slashes hit the enemy's weapon, they tend to be deflected.

Not really, no. I think I've mentioned above the system that Thief had, 6, 7 years ago. As far as I can say, Oblivion hasn't done better.
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But that kind of collision system doesn't have any mass. If you've got vastly greater KE, you're just going to smash through foils. Additionally, some swords are pointy for a reason, and are made for lunging. That kind of auto deflect collision box system wouldn't account for lunges or the mass of the weapon. To me, that seems cumbersome.

In Oblivion, when there are big enough attacks, you feel it because the weapons actually have physics data and the ones taking the attack get knocked around and shaken a bit. Granted, I'd like to see the physics used more, but I believe that can be tweaked somewhere.

Though, it would be cool to see enemies lose their grip if you smashed repeatedly at their weapons and hands at the opportunities... or lose limbs *whistle*. However, that's out of the scope of the TES:IV mesh system.

Oblivion's no Soul Calibur when it comes to combat variety, but I'm not impressed by a collision box gimmick either.

Does a left-right PA let you avoid the enemy's block stance, if he holds the weapon in like this: \

If you're ready to block IRL with a weapon, your weapon isn't going to stay still when the enemy makes a slash.

Additionally, we don't have just slashing swords. There are pointy ones, axes (some designed to catch and disarm swords), and giant warhammers too.

I don't know about you, if I'm really making a skillful bladed attack (that is not a feint) IRL, I am going for a killing blow, I am not getting my weapon caught on their if they're attacking too. Weapon collision seems an unnecessary hassle when there's already a block/parry/dodge system already in place that decides when I or my enemy want weapons to collide.

the sword is raised to cover a diagonal in front of you

Static blocking!??!? That doesn't fly with me. Oblivion's block/parry system is ready-active, not passive. It negates the need for that weapon collision system, because you're assumed to try to collide weapons/shield when holding down 'block', or the enemy is.

their hits often knock the sword out of the blocking position

We can have bigger (mass) swords. Shields too. Also possible to simply be stronger than the enemy. Unlike the pitifully combat weak thief, we have those combat options to us.

If I'm ready to block, I'm ready to punish if their recoil is worse than what was caused on me.

Sorry Swiss Merc, what you showed is a backwards and unnecessary to me. What you've shown seems like an archaic workaround because there's fewer weapons, less attack / defense variety, and no physics possible.

Weapon colllision in Oblivion is assumed via active blocks/parries from a defensive 'blocking' stance. Passive block/parries, they don't work, especially if the enemy is swinging with more mass and KE.

[SwissMercenary]

But that kind of collision system doesn't have any mass. If you've got vastly greater KE, you're just going to smash through foils. Additionally, some swords are pointy for a reason, and are made for lunging. That kind of auto deflect collision box system wouldn't account for lunges or the mass of the weapon. To me, that seems cumbersome.

And that's why I call the system 'primitive.' It could be improved. However, I'd daresay it makes for more engaging combat then 'swing' 'die roll'.

In Oblivion, when there are big enough attacks, you feel it because the weapons actually have physics data and the ones taking the attack get knocked around and shaken a bit. Granted, I'd like to see the physics used more, but I believe that can be tweaked somewhere.

And who's to say that the system I outlined couldn't be impoved to incorporate it more? Hammerites tended to do a much better job at knocking you out of your blocking stance then regular sword-wielders, so in some respect, it did take it into account.

If you're ready to block IRL with a weapon, your weapon isn't going to stay still when the enemy makes a slash.

It didn't. Depending on the angle and strength of the hit, it would move, often opening you up for a second blow.

Additionally, we don't have just slashing swords. There are pointy ones, axes (some designed to catch and disarm swords), and giant warhammers too.

And I'm not saying that Oblivion has less of a variety of weaponry. However, as it stands now, that 'variety' manifests itself in:

A: The amount of damage you do.

B: The range you have.

When you are using an axe in the exact same way as you fight with a mace, that variety sure feels hollow.

I don't know about you, if I'm really making a skillful bladed attack (that is not a feint) IRL, I am going for a killing blow, I am not getting my weapon caught on their if they're attacking too. Weapon collision seems an unnecessary hassle when there's already a block/parry/dodge system already in place that decides when I or my enemy want weapons to collide.

Oblivion has a parry system? If you are talking about Thief, weapon collision worked out quite fine, for the most part.

Static blocking!??!? That doesn't fly with me. Oblivion's block/parry system is ready-active, not passive. It negates the need for that weapon collision system, because you're assumed to try to collide weapons/shield when holding down 'block', or the enemy is.

And if you are facing the general direction of the enemy, and hold the block key, you will always block that attack. Lovely. Well, unless the die roll goes bad for you. That's what I don't like about it - there lack of player involvement. The game assumes that your character is, ah, skilled enough to block every such attack. In a 3-rd person isometric RPG, I'm all for it. In first-person? No thanks, really.

Sorry Swiss Merc, what you showed is a backwards and unnecessary to me. What you've shown seems like an archaic workaround because there's fewer weapons, less attack / defense variety, and no physics possible.

As I said, my gripe comes from the lack of player involvement in that respect. Yeah, there's more variety. I don't deny it. However, I want to block because I managed to put my shield in the way of his swing, not because I enter 'block mode' and my character magically blocks any attack coming from the front. It comes down to button-mashing, rather then well-aimed hits.

Weapon colllision in Oblivion is assumed via active blocks/parries from a defensive 'blocking' stance.  Passive block/parries, they don't work, especially if the enemy is swinging with more mass and KE.
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I know how Oblivion works - that was an example of how in Thief, you and the AI could take advantage of weapon collision. I mean, seriously, even if you aren't holding that huge warhammer in a blocking stance, but your enemy slashes at you, so that the weapon should be in the way of his hit, his blow should at best glance off, at worst, nick you.

[kandrathe]

I don't know. At level 20ish the combat seems realitic enough, and hardly predictable. Tonight I got taken by surprise by an expert blunt attacker with a huge mace and got flung about 30 feet to the side and stunned for 15 seconds while he bore down on me bludgeoning me silly. I've also figured out how to disarm my opponents occasionally now.

As for blocking, ok I can see how that would work for 1v1 combat. How about 1v2, or 1v3, or 1v10? As I run on down the road, I am frequently fighting four opponents, like a couple bandits, a boar, and a bear at times. I think Oblivion does pretty good without having the "Combat Animation" type arcade game feel.

[SwissMercenary]

As for blocking, ok I can see how that would work for 1v1 combat.  How about 1v2, or 1v3, or 1v10?  As I run on down the road, I am frequently fighting four opponents, like a couple bandits, a boar, and a bear at times.  I think Oblivion does pretty good without having the "Combat Animation" type arcade game feel.
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It worked pretty much the exact same way. If your enemies could surround you (Which they weren't too good at, sadly), very, very heavy pain was heading your way. The kind of pain that spells 'no chance.'

Instead, they more or less tried to find a way around, until they got within striking range to you, and then did their best to turn you into a Very Dead Thief ™.

It worked fairly well, too. Blocking several attackers was far more difficult - about the best thing you could do, was isolate them in a doorway - they'd push through, and make room for their pals behind them, but before that happened, you could exchange a few blows. Alternatively, you could try to keep one guy between you and the other, and go full-out on him, using dodging more then blocking. Of course, his pal would try to circle around -really- fast, so some sort of pain would probably come your way.

That's where the AI could very well had been improved. Realistically, the one between the two of you should have stepped left, the other one should have stepped forward and right. It wasn't perfect, by a long shot.

[NiteFox]

It worked pretty much the exact same way. If your enemies could surround you (Which they weren't too good at, sadly), very, very heavy pain was heading your way. The kind of pain that spells 'no chance.'

Instead, they more or less tried to find a way around, until they got within striking range to you, and then did their best to turn you into a Very Dead Thief ™.
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Of course, in such situations my thief/assassin knows that if she takes more than two hits to kill an opponent, or if one of three (two of four, three of five etc.) cannot be dispatched at range, then it's an absolutely hopeless case to take on.

Which is why poisons are so crtitical to a thief, perhaps moreso than the difficulty slider. Develop alchemy, and develop marksman as well, and make sure that your equipment is loaded with the most powerful poisons you have if you decide to wander across the outerworld.

If you can kill a bandit skirmisher with a single poisoned arrow to the head, this makes your job a lot easier. Bowmen can be left until last, just take care of everything that can just strut its stuff towards you and bean you across the skull.

Really, all that dodging and weaving and blocking of close quarters combat doesn't seem like a sane way to play. If I don't kill with the first arrow, then I kill with the next strike of my poisoned Sufferthorn. Anything beyond that is just asking for trouble.

Now, if I was a big dumb Nord wearing twice my bodyweight in plate mail, then I'd probably be more akin to slugging it out. But as a khajiit thief I want battles taken care of with the minimum of fuss and bloodshed on my part.

Plus, playing at the lowest graphical settings, the screen distortion you get when you get whacked across the noggin makes prolonged combat nearly impossible.

[Drasca]

Realistically, the one between the two of you should have stepped left, the other one should have stepped forward and right. It wasn't perfect, by a long shot.
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Looks like our experiences differ here both in Oblivion and in combat preferences. While I've experienecd flanking and counterflanking in Oblivion (via conjures, melee and magic most of the time, outdoors the other), you have not. I also disagree with the pincher manuever on a small scale. While I think its good for one guy to flank, I think the other should be doing his best to press the attack to take up all your attention. Pressing forward is one thing, but the "to the right" part is only available if you let him, and you aren't likely going to give up to flanking easily. So, the best he option for him is take up your attention for his buddy to sneak by your side.

I'm surprised you weren't flanked by the Argonians in the Arena, I'm pretty sure that one's required. Or am I confusing youf or Artega and other Grand Arena Champions?

A: The amount of damage you do.

B: The range you have.

When you are using an axe in the exact same way as you fight with a mace, that variety sure feels hollow.

Yeah, I would like more weapon moves too, stuff that makes the weapons more individualized, but I also know this game isn't soul calibur. My main weapon variety comes from the enchants I put on them. Other inherent weapon qualities are:

C: Weapon speed. Two handers do play differently than daggers.

D: Physics Mass. This one's somewhat hidden, and I'm not completely sure how it works, but every mesh in this game has physics data. I've opened it up via nifskope, but we currently have no way to attach or affect havok physics data. Someday, I want to be able to manipulate this. A giant warhammer and KE should physically knock around creatures of lesser mass.

I've knocked around rats and paralyzed bodies so far, but that's it.

At level 20ish the combat seems realitic enough, and hardly predictable

I actually use a mod that increases combat AI variety and overall aggression. Check out Combat Behavior by Lyrondor
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/article.asp?SC...&CIID=36919&p=3

Edit to add:

Oblivion has a parry system?

Yes. You parry rather than block if you don't have a shield. There's also less die-rolling involved in Oblivion than a lot of other games. If your weapons physically touch the enemy, it hits. No imaginary chance to hit BS. That's a step up in my book.

my character magically blocks any attack coming from the front

Note, you still take damage when you block, and I'm not completely sure about taking more damage, but I definitely feel more vulnerable when I've just made a block against one guy, and another attacks while I'm feeling the recoil from blocking the first.

It comes down to button-mashing, rather then well-aimed hits.

I dispute button mashing, especially against enemies that block. If you're randomly attacking a shieldblocking enemy, you're going to feel recoil when your weapon bounces off, putting you at a disadvantage for defense the enemy counter attacks with their opening. Sure, there's less aiming with weapon and blocking directions (unless the guy is flanking me left and right and I'm countercircling), but combat is dictacted by timing, openings, and distance.

You cannot escape some 'button mash' aspect in any combat simulation when you are pressing an advantage. If you're 'mashing' only when you have an advantage, and no other times, then I believe that's a realistic combat simulation.

However, I would dispute that OB is only a button mashing gamefor melee'ers. The block/recoil system punishes wild attacks.

[SwissMercenary]

Looks like our experiences differ here both in Oblivion and in combat preferences. While I've experienecd flanking and counterflanking in Oblivion (via conjures, melee and magic most of the time, outdoors the other), you have not. I also disagree with the pincher manuever on a small scale. While I think its good for one guy to flank, I think the other should be doing his best to press the attack to take up all your attention. Pressing forward is one thing, but the "to the right" part is only available if you let him, and you aren't likely going to give up to flanking easily. So, the best he option for him is take up your attention for his buddy to sneak by your side.

Actually, I was speaking of Thief. I think there's quite a bit of confusion going on here - I only address Oblivion when I speak of it directly.

How oblivion works

I know about the variety of weapon ranges, damages, and effects induced by weight. I don't really see how they play a role when I talked about weapons having collision boxes.

[Snipped]

However, I would dispute that OB is only a button mashing gamefor melee'ers. The block/recoil system punishes wild attacks.
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No, its not. However, I personally think that making an effort to block the actual blow, rather then activating 'block' stance, and having your character do it for you (For one thing) adds more depth to the combat.

I also think that's probably the reason for why Artega is not wholly impressed with the combat system.

Oblivion has very little die rolling

All the special effects from the Power Attacks are 100% based on die rolling, and 0% based on player involvement. As I said, actually aiming your hits or blocks also doesn't play a role, aside from generally hitting the guy. And that really dissapoints me.

[[wcip]Angel]

After all these technical posts, this question might seem misplaced:

Do you know of any nice hats? My custom Fighter/Summoner doesn't have a helmet, and even though he sports an impressive head of hair, I'd rather protect his skull than be popular with the female bosmer and dunmer. :) I'm considering buying that helmet from the Three Brothers-store in the capitol city (at about 7000), but I'm not loving the speed-drainage. Any suggestions for hats or helmets? My Dark Elf has little regard for fashion (despite my attempts at teaching him otherwise :(), so the headgear's functional value supersedes its aesthetic beauty.

[kandrathe]

After all these technical posts, this question might seem misplaced:

Do you know of any nice hats? My custom Fighter/Summoner doesn't have a helmet, and even though he sports an impressive head of hair, I'd rather protect his skull than be popular with the female bosmer and dunmer. :) I'm considering buying that helmet from the Three Brothers-store in the capitol city (at about 7000), but I'm not loving the speed-drainage. Any suggestions for hats or helmets? My Dark Elf has little regard for fashion (despite my attempts at teaching him otherwise :(), so the headgear's functional value supersedes its aesthetic beauty.
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If looks are not so important then I would recommend the quest reward when you become Master of the Fighters guild... The Helm of Oreyn Bearclaw +10 Agi +10 End



-- a nice touch is Morrowind story line revisited :D

[Drasca]

Angel,May 15 2006, 09:14 PM]Any suggestions for hats or helmets? My Dark Elf has little regard for fashion (despite my attempts at teaching him otherwise :(), so the headgear's functional value supersedes its aesthetic beauty.
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I'm a fan of the steel helm. A lot of people like Legion armor and helms, and they're easy to get, but I don't like those rust-buckets. Elven hats look goofy to me. Platypus feet are also a turn off. Helms, for some odd reason, are difficult to get a hold of in OB. So try to be happy with whatever you're able to get. Try in Anvil and Skingrad for regular steel helms. You can then enchant them however you are capable of.

Actually, I was speaking of Thief

OB's creatures still flank, and that needed to be said.

I personally think that making an effort to block the actual blow, rather then activating 'block' stance, and having your character do it for you (For one thing) adds more depth to the combat.

I think that's a hassle. Honestly, if physics and computational power allowed for the weapon attacks slashing at you and pounding. You'd miss blocking almost every time, especially with considering the disproportionate mass of the weapons involved. so the game balance would be really off.

You wouldn't be able to to parry against daggers at all, or any lunge attacks. Shields would in all honestly likely fall off. That's not fun to me.

You'd also need a second mouse, or specialized other specialized interface (power glove?), just to make a realistic directional aspect. If you didn't have a dynamic directional control, you'd never be able to block/parry enemies shorter than you.

No, that's definitely a hassle. Can you think of a better implementable system? The thief one's archaic, and with its limited controls seems less real to me, not more. Realistic physical collision, not this weapon box stuff, would require a lot more computational power and the controls would be cumbersome to begin with, or useless to use.

Personally, I'd like to see the 'stab' attack back in TESIV, and to use any kinds of attacks while moving in any directions. Can you imagine flanking then using the power lunge smoothly?

All the special effects from the Power Attacks are 100% based on die rolling, and 0% based on player involvement.

The player actually has to use, physically hit with, or evade enemy power attacks to begin with. Yes, power attacks do require die rolling, but honestly how often do you use PA's? PA's are a small part of your overall game. They're % based because they'd be overpowered if guaranteed, and I believe the interface and sheer physical processing power to do that would be too demanding.

How much player involvement vs prng die rolling is there in any of the other contemporary RPG games? Honestly, we've accepted a lot more prng in mundane actions and less player involvement in other games. I think that you don't miss for stupid reasons is a step up.

I know about the variety of weapon ranges, damages, and effects induced by weight. I. I don't really see how they play a role when I talked about weapons having collision boxes.

If we're going to have real collision, not fake thief collision, we need to account the difference in mass and KE.

On mass and KE ... Take a large mass. Say, a 2 ton anvil. Drop it from a height of... 100m against a smaller mass at zero relative KE, say, a 56 kg Wile E. Coyote. Which one's going to be pushed away, and what direction?

On range: See this link to imagine a see saw as a model for basic lever physics. Turn physics on. Try the kids at different points of the see-saw's. They produce different torques, different forces based on what point they'er sitting.

Now imagine two swords clashing. What kind of mass, direction, how far along their sword length matters.

It'd be cool to have real physics for every action, but it is also overly complex. We have the problem of too real and not real enough. For me, thief's collusion boxes are not real enough because they're too limited in scope, and trying to control true physics would be too much given mouse and keyboard.

If I had a virtual room however...

Edit:
One more thing! See this thread on wow warlocks for a massive example of broken mechanics and broken prng. Oblivion's a huge sigh of relief from that scale of broken prng dependency.

[Rhydderch Hael]

Angel,May 15 2006, 06:14 PM]After all these technical posts, this question might seem misplaced:

Do you know of any nice hats? My custom Fighter/Summoner doesn't have a helmet, and even though he sports an impressive head of hair, I'd rather protect his skull than be popular with the female bosmer and dunmer. [right][snapback]109967[/snapback][/right]

I can't help you, since you are seeking protective headgear. But in the 'nice hat' department, I prefer a hood. Hoods are cheap (look in the bandit camp inside of Vilverin for a nice, rustic Ranger-esque one) and can be enchanted. Borba in Cheydinhal sells the Cowl of the Druid, which sports multiple enchantments.

Or if you're feeling Sith-like, go blast some Necromancers and nab one of their black hoods. After (respectfully) prying the robe off a fallen ally during the Main Quest, the black Necromancer's hood matched the outfit perfectly. Looked like I was in the Dark Brotherhood, without actually being a cold-hearted killer.

Hoods work with dark-hued armors like Leather or a Legionnaire's getup (as an aside, the University Battlemages simply replace the Legion armor with a hood).

[--Pete]

Hi,

If I had a virtual room however...
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But, there's the rub. As you point out, a large part of the problem is how to control a very realistic avatar. Do we need a full sensor suit? Should the suit weigh us down so that we have the realistic feel of the armor? Should we be limited to using things in game that we could actually use in real life (because the suit we're wearing puts forces on us that are realistic)? That type of a game is a sim, and works pretty well in flight and driving modes, where the skills needed do not take a lifetime to develop.

RPGs, IMHO, are all about doing virtual things that we'd be incapable of doing in real life. There are few of us who've actually trained with swords, and fewer still that would be able to do anything with the improbable swords found in games. Armor is another issue. A couple of people I know used to run an interesting demo at SF cons. They'd take a volunteer from the audience and have him/her come down on stage. Then they'd dress that volunteer in a decent set of replica plate (about 70 lb ~ 32 kg). Most of the volunteers could hardly walk, much less run and dodge. That's why most SCA "armor" is aluminum.

As to the whole KE debate, most of it is wrong. First, because the light weapons are going to be the ones with the higher KE (which goes like the mass times the velocity squared -- thus, half the weight times twice the speed will give you twice the KE). But in a collision, it is the momentum that matters more. As long as the speed can be kept up, the heavier weapon will prevail. Considering that throughout the period when hand weapons were in use, the trend was to lighter, faster, weapons, I think the question of what works better was empirically solved long ago. Again, that is why the realism in RPGs must be moderated with playability. If one were to look at what was being used at any one moment in history, one finds that pretty much everybody used the latest technology or lost.

Ultimately, though, it all comes down to the strategic/tactical level one wants to play at. Some people prefer real time button mashing twitch games and consider them realistic, although it isn't clear to me that hitting 'a-j-c-n-e' in under half a second is really analogous to 'strike, turn, dodge, spin, kick. Others prefer to issue orders to an army (often in a turn based situation) and let the computer handle the rest. Neither is better, or for that matter more realistic. And, as in most mattes of opinion, no amount of debate will win an adherent of one side over to the other.

Oh, BTW, yeah - I prefer turned based squad level games and flight simulators with good physics.

--Pete

[roguebanshee]

RPGs, IMHO, are all about doing virtual things that we'd be incapable of doing in real life.
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You mean you can't toss fireballs in real life? I thought everyone else was just holding back to avoid burning down everything. :whistling:

If you want a decent attempt at a swordfighting game try Die by the Sword. But for a CRPG I don't want to be annoyed by clumsy controls.

[Rhydderch Hael]

You mean you can't toss fireballs in real life? I thought everyone else was just holding back to avoid burning down everything.  :whistling:
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I think he meant travel to exotic locales, fight alongside (and against) others, commit crimes, avenge injustices, and wage battles.

Swords + real life :unsure: . What a strange idea.

I always wondered, though: how does a wizard toss a fireball without burning his own hands? If you ever considered that in a real-life application, the dude would toast himself before he ever got the shot off.

A missile's warhead becomes dangerous only after travelling clear of the launcher. Magic spells— do not!

[--Pete]

Hi,

I always wondered, though: how does a wizard toss a fireball without burning his own hands?[right][snapback]110045[/snapback][/right]

SPF 1,000,000,000 - available at any local apothecary, in the case next to the leeches ;)

--Pete

[Occhidiangela]

I think he meant travel to exotic locales, fight alongside (and against) others, commit crimes, avenge injustices, and wage battles.

Swords + real life :unsure: . What a strange idea.

I always wondered, though: how does a wizard toss a fireball without burning his own hands? If you ever considered that in a real-life application, the dude would toast himself before he ever got the shot off.

A missile's warhead becomes dangerous only after travelling clear of the launcher. Magic spells— do not!
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Depends on the arming and fusing circuits, and their settings. The Standard D & D fireball, being absent electronics, tends to behave like a zero milisecond fused impact detonator.

Use at your own risk.

AS a DM, I usually explained the fire of various fire spells not burning the magician's fingers as a side benefit of the boundary layer . . . for those who asked. :rolleyes: They'd still occasionally cast fireballs at targets 15' away, and take full damage -- half if saved. The boundary layer can only help so much.

Occhi

[kandrathe]

Depends on the arming and fusing circuits, and their settings.  The Standard D & D fireball, being absent electronics, tends to behave like a zero milisecond fused impact detonator. 

Use at your own risk.

AS a DM, I usually explained the fire of various fire spells not burning the magician's fingers as a side benefit of the boundary layer . . .  for those who asked.  :rolleyes:  They'd still occasionally cast fireballs at targets 15' away, and take full damage -- half if saved.  The boundary layer can only help so much.

Occhi
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Or, you might explain it as pre-release mental control around a super heated plasma globule, but after the wizard launches the missile the control is lost and the burning from the radius of a collision explosion is not mentally controlled. Only the missile can be dodged, or fire damage resisted.

[Drasca]

I always wondered, though: how does a wizard toss a fireball without burning his own hands? If you ever considered that in a real-life application, the dude would toast himself before he ever got the shot off.[right][snapback]110045[/snapback][/right]

We're wizards, isn't that enough? ;) Besides, real hands are for the wussy. There's a nice total arm replacement industory...

A missile's warhead becomes dangerous only after travelling clear of the launcher. Magic spells— do not!

Yeah, well, I still wouldn't want to be at the tail end of that missle at the launcher. Something about large amounts of high grade fuel burned to propel a large mass of metal doesn't go well with my skin.

[Occhidiangela]

Or, you might explain it as pre-release mental control around a super heated plasma globule, but after the wizard launches the missile the control is lost and the burning from the radius of a collision explosion is not mentally controlled.  Only the missile can be dodged, or fire damage resisted.
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"Ben, I can describe the future in one word: Plasma." ;)

Occhi