Innervate for all Druids!

[Artega]

Honestly I think it's possible to raid-tank without TM; you're getting hit plenty hard, which means you'll never be wanting for Rage. Sure, you might have to pop Bloodrage to get that Mocking Blow off in time, but I can see how Flurry + Defiance would certainly make up for that.

In five-man instances, however, I do believe that TM is necessary; mobs won't be hitting you hard enough to get you infinite Rage, which makes stancedancing for Berserker Rage a bit more important.

I'd do the 0/28/23 build I've been toying with for good if the loss of TM didn't mean the loss of versatility in my gameplay (and, of course, uselessness in PvP.)

[Mavfin]

My first thought was "that must be pretty close on Vaelastrasz".  My second thought was that when you hear the word 'tank', you mean 'protection-specced warrior'.  What I mean when I use the word tank is simply 'warrior'.  We clear BWL without, to my knowledge, _any_ protection specced warriors, but we certainly have more than 3 warriors in a raid (5-6 ideally).  My point was that the protection tree isn't needed to tank effectively, and becomes less so as your gear improves.  Thus you may as well spec dps ;-)

Those mortal strikes come in handy.
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The people we have who are deep-prot spec are that spec by their own choice, because that's how they like it. Other warriors are Fury, or MS, or whatever they wish to be. It's a fun way to play, IMO.

So, whether you *need* it or not is irrelevant here, as no one told those tanks they had to be deep prot :P

[Artega]

Though I have been guilty of pulling aggro WITH Salvation pumping back to back executes. :D[right][snapback]108810[/snapback][/right]

Having two MS Warriors zipping around is a big buff for the entire raid; between two Warriors, it's not at all difficult to keep the MS debuff going the entire time. I'm not terribly familiar with most of the BWL/AQ40 bosses, but cutting a boss's healing by half (mostly) permanently isn't anything to laugh at.

As for back-to-back Executes... Fury Warriors can pump out Executes so fast, it's not even funny; I know I've died a horrible death playing Executioner on the last 5%-10% of a boss's HP :)

Execute, Berserker Rage, Execute, Bloodrage, Execute, Execute, Execute, and so on. Toss in Recklessness and Death Wish if you REALLY want to draw aggro.

[Mavfin]

Having two MS Warriors zipping around is a big buff for the entire raid; between two Warriors, it's not at all difficult to keep the MS debuff going the entire time.  I'm not terribly familiar with most of the BWL/AQ40 bosses, but cutting a boss's healing by half (mostly) permanently isn't anything to laugh at.

As for back-to-back Executes... Fury Warriors can pump out Executes so fast, it's not even funny; I know I've died a horrible death playing Executioner on the last 5%-10% of a boss's HP :)

Execute, Berserker Rage, Execute, Bloodrage, Execute, Execute, Execute, and so on.  Toss in Recklessness and Death Wish if you REALLY want to draw aggro.
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Execute-tanking on Vael ftw!

[Tal]

Execute-tanking on Vael ftw!
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I've only done that...four or five times now. :D

[Xanthix]

Of course, the mana tides and innervates are primarly there for the priests benefit.  Then there is Devine Spirit + Meditation.
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Official Priest Complaint Response #327 clearly states that in response to this, I must point out that the whole raid gets Divine Spirit, and Mages have a talent identical to Meditation, as well as Mage Armor. It states that it is optional for me to mention that until recently, we had to spend 30-31 points in Disc to get either ability. :)

It is true that all druids getting Innervate is a pretty good buff for priests though, so I shouldn't complain!

[oldmandennis]

but cutting a boss's healing by half (mostly) permanently isn't anything to laugh at.

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Most raid bosses, if they heal, do so pretty overwhelmingly. In general, you need to use tactics to stop them from healing, rather then trying to MS+burn through it.

[Frag]

MT for my guild on Tich at the moment, and I'd like to weigh in on the nice TM derailment of the thread. :D

Trainwreck: Direct and ancedotal evidence supports that Tigole plays a warrior, raids with him, and it bears mentioning that he's LD for raid encounter design.

If those random tibits above bear true, it's likely to say that TM will probably remain a base talent. I have played without it (0/30/21) and with (11/5/35 and currently 9/11/31). I've found that a lack of TM prohibits the playstyle I developed because I had TM. Now that I'm more or less a PvE Tankbot I'm going to try a 5/31/15 when I finish TF and see if I can adapt. The discussion bears a note that a (ancedotal) amount of players that say TM is not neccesary are either counter-cookie-cutter-activists (rare) or raid tanks (common).

I see the talent as something I have a hard time playing without anymore, but definately could have developed without, though my instincts still scream that a warrior without it is limiting their flexibility either minimally or drasitically depending on the circumstance.

Regards,
~Frag

P.S. Everyone spec how you want, your guild says ANYTHING otherwise follow my patented* [ /bonk /sigh /bye ] and find people who treat the game like a game and have fun. :whistling:

P.P.S. On-topic: Both my wife & best friend play Innervate druids, and they're happy they can have a more flexible spec while still keeping a powerful raid ability.


*not really patented

[Trien]

I'm of somewhat mixed feeling about this change. While I'm not going to complain about getting a new ability, this just feels... wrong. I've played my druid with innervate (last 10 or so levels before 60, and first 6 months of being L60) as well as without (the last 6 months or so since 1.8 hit). I will admit that it is very nice to have, especially when things go sour and the group ends up having to blow through more heals than it otherwise should have to. Also when we were first learning MC, everyone was still geared in blues or worse and we didn't have the healing capacity that we do now, it is nice to have around. I gave up my innervate for a feral build since I enjoy playing that way outside raids, despite being in full healbot mode 99% of the time in raid.

But is it really needed by every single druid, say in a raid situation? I guess part of that depends on your raid makeup... we're almost always pretty close to 5x8, with 3 druids that have innervate currently, and hardly ever see all 3 druids having to use them. In most bosses that we've learned, often there isn't even a call for one. How would the raid do if it had none? Certainly less leeway for error if a fight went wrong, which does happen, regardless of how experienced the raid is.

How about non raid situations? Ferals who spec HotW already have a 20% bonus to their mana pool, though a common sight (which makes me shudder) is the druid with no +int in their gear at all. I guess that'll give a little bit more mana for a heal or two, though that gear will most likely have no +spr, so the benefit won't be huge, assuming it doesn't get purged/dispelled immediately. Plus often one is simply denied the opportunity to heal in PvP anyhow. Useful if you get caught in a pinch with no mana I guess.

Balance druids... loading up on +spelldmg doesn't tend to leave you with a large mana pool to begin with, though there is the Moonglow talent to help a bit. But you do tend to run of mana quickly, and don't always have time to drink up either. Could definitely be useful in this kind of situation.

I don't know... guess I'm still debating the whole philosophy of the change more so than whether I like it or not...

[Trien]

With all the furor about innervate, I forgot all about the proposed replacement talent...

If it indeed works as some suggest, by eating up a HoT for an instant heal, that'd give the resto druid another emergency heal option. Right now, our only option if NS is on cooldown is to throw a regrowth (2s cast, 1.8s if you have 5-piece Stormrage), perhaps a rejuv, and then hope that keeps them alive long enough for your healing touch (3.5s cast untalented, 3s talented) to land. Either that or toss a second mana-expensive regrowth if in real dire need. Swiftmend sounds like it would allow you to rejuv and then consume it for a heal, which'll happen in the time of the global cooldown of 1.5s, so it'd be in the flash heal time range. Or if you can managed to land the regrowth first, convert its HoT into a heal.

Cooldown remains to be seen I guess, as well as how it'll react with multiple HoT's on the target (from multiple players). And then what about lower ranks of regrowth/rejuv?

[Kevin]

With all the furor about innervate, I forgot all about the proposed replacement talent...

If it indeed works as some suggest, by eating up a HoT for an instant heal, that'd give the resto druid another emergency heal option. Right now, our only option if NS is on cooldown is to throw a regrowth (2s cast, 1.8s if you have 5-piece Stormrage), perhaps a rejuv, and then hope that keeps them alive long enough for your healing touch (3.5s cast untalented, 3s talented) to land. Either that or toss a second mana-expensive regrowth if in real dire need. Swiftmend sounds like it would allow you to rejuv and then consume it for a heal, which'll happen in the time of the global cooldown of 1.5s, so it'd be in the flash heal time range. Or if you can managed to land the regrowth first, convert its HoT into a heal.

Cooldown remains to be seen I guess, as well as how it'll react with multiple HoT's on the target (from multiple players). And then what about lower ranks of regrowth/rejuv?
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Global cooldown my not apply, there are some skills in the game that are not affected by global cooldowns already (pally seals and divine favor and natures swiftness to name just 3), so it's very possible that you could do the rejuv and not see a gloval cooldown running on swiftmend.

[Rudishoes]

I just want to throw this out there.

The Druid Restoration tree has STUNK since the overhaul. Aside from NS there is almost nothing (Reflection aside) really worth getting in the tree. And furor doesn't count. :P The last thing Druids needed was innervate as a 31-point talent. By getting both HoTs on the tank and spamming Rank 4 HT, you can go all day. Endurance is not the Druid's weak spot.

Despite all the complaining, the plethora of innervates isn't really going to make a difference to most raids. Everyone who's already posted did a really good job of doing my HW for me and getting those reasons out there.

I can see it coming into play in long protracted PvP battles (Warriors and Paladins will never beat Feral Druids again, ever. Sorry!), but in group PvP, it's going to be useful only very, very, situationally (like playing BG healer for a group playing against people too dumb to go for the other team's healer first - I usually die/have to start kiting the Pain Train before I go OOM).


If swiftmend gets done right, Resto might actually be worth dropping more than 21 points into, and there might actually be legitimate reasons to "strongly encourage" Raiding Druids to spec /xx/xx/31.

[Trien]

It'd be awesome if you didn't get the global cooldown :)

I'm presuming a sequence of casting a rejuv first (which triggers the global cooldown), and then swiftmend to consume it. Only way that'd work is if swiftmend was not affected by global cooldown and could cast immediately... which I rather doubt.