Innervate for all Druids!

[MongoJerry]

This makes some pretty big assumptions that it scales just the same way as Conflagrate, of course.

Unless Swiftmend is a lot more effective than that, I don't see a compelling case for getting it.  It would require you to time your regrowths and rejuvenations very carefully, and even if you resorted to using rank 1 rejuvenation and regrowth to get the Swiftmend to proc, it still wouldn't be mana-efficient.
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It's way too early for calculations. Wait for the 1.11 beta to come out and then see.

[Tal]

Oh how much I love such comments denying social realities.

Surely there is some high end raiding guild that knows better and will tolerate your spec, right? Well reality will prove you wrong. On a med pop server, you will have perhaps like three raid groups that have downed Nef by now. What if all of these don't tolerate your spec? Then you have the choice of standing your ground, but not being able to raid with them or respecc, just to please them and get a raiding slot. This is the reality out there!

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I can prove you wrong. The Avarice Alliance on Stormrage, of which the Lurkers are a member, has dropped Nefarion three times. All with a few Feral druids in the mix. We also have a few Shadow priests, a couple of fury warriors and even a arms warrior.

Would we be as effective if everyone specc'd feral, shadow, or arms? No but there are just enough folks that do spec disc/holy, restoration and protection that we make it work.

Reality indeed.

[MongoJerry]

I can prove you wrong. The Avarice Alliance on Stormrage, of which the Lurkers are a member, has dropped Nefarion three times. All with a few Feral druids in the mix. We also have a few Shadow priests, a couple of fury warriors and even a arms warrior.

Would we be as effective if everyone specc'd feral, shadow, or arms? No but there are just enough folks that do spec disc/holy, restoration and protection that we make it work.

Reality indeed.
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Raids involving lots of Lurkers don't reflect the reality of most of the world. I would expect Lurkers to not only tolerate but embrace characters using non-cookie-cutter spec's. That's not the norm, however.

[Kevin]

It's way too early for calculations.  Wait for the 1.11 beta to come out and then see.
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I agree. I also agree that the number that it does use will make a difference too, if it operates off just your own HoT's or any druid's HoT's, etc. We don't have enough info to really talk this in depth about it. But theorycraft is fun.

What Tufty calculated makes it kinda like Holy Shock but with no offensive abilities. I've used Holy Shock as a decent "Oh crap" button and it working with Divine Favor made it just that much better.

It has to be better than just letting the HoT do a tick for you. It will have to hit in the 1 to 1.5 K range to be a good "Oh crap" button. Or it will have to have a short cool down and a high mana efficiency to make it some kind of healing kick at the end of rejuv/regrowth set-up, but that isn't what I figure it will be or what it is targeted at. Too much to track to be efficient with that. I don't think mana efficiency is something it needs to be all that concerned about as a 2nd "oh crap" button either. If it isn't intended to work as another "oh crap" button I don't see it being worth anything either.

[Tuftears]

It's way too early for calculations.  Wait for the 1.11 beta to come out and then see.

Well, wild speculation will abound, so why not add to it? :)

Let's imagine that the idea of Swiftmend is to make Regrowth as competitive as Healing Touch for the raiding healing druid. How much does it need to heal, for how much mana, to be as mana-efficient as Healing Touch?

Assuming that the sum of +heal to Regrowth+Swiftmend will be 100%, so we don't need to consider +heal for mana efficiency...

Healing Touch rank 11: 800 mana for 2267-2677 healing, or 3.09 heal/mana

Regrowth rank 9: 880 mana for 1003-1119 plus 1064/21 secs, or 2125 healing
Swiftmend: say, 120 mana for 965 healing
Total: 1000 mana for 3090 healing

That would make Regrowth+Swiftmend *nearly* as efficient at healing as Healing Touch 11, since you still need the Regrowth effect to be on the target, thus wasting a tick. It would create a new healing regime where you have one druid and one priest paired up on the same tank at all times, and the druid's only job is to cast regrowth, then time swiftmend when regrowth had been almost fully consumed.

The regrowth effect keeps the tank's health a little smoother, rather than the spiky effect that a lot of tanks dislike.

[Warlock]

Healing spells are more efficient than equivalent damage spells. The healing spell with the closest effect is PW:S; I expect better stats than PW:S because swiftheal needs prior preparation, overheal is wasted and it doesn't prevent casting delays. I'd guess roughly 400 mana for 1200 healed with a fifteen second cooldown.

I very rarely used regrowth to heal. It's a mana hog so was reserved for emergency use when I couldn't wait for a HT to complete. My staples were rejuvenation (instant cast, cheap and benefits nicely from +heal gear) for people taking occasional damage and various ranks of healing touch for tanks.

Regrowth rank 1 prebuffs will probably become popular.

[Kevin]

Healing spells are more efficient than equivalent damage spells. The healing spell with the closest effect is PW:S; I expect better stats than PW:S because swiftheal needs prior preparation, overheal is wasted and it doesn't prevent casting delays. I'd guess roughly 400 mana for 1200 healed with a fifteen second cooldown.

I very rarely used regrowth to heal. It's a mana hog so was reserved for emergency use when I couldn't wait for a HT to complete. My staples were rejuvenation (instant cast, cheap and benefits nicely from +heal gear) for people taking occasional damage and various ranks of healing touch for tanks.

Regrowth rank 1 prebuffs will probably become popular.
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I could also envision swift heal doing something like X healing + the total of what is left of the HoT. So if you hit it after one tick of Rejuv you get the rest of the rejuv + swift mend healing (perhaps not +X but a percentage to scale with ranks).

This would allow it to be used as a "kicker" at the end of the HoT (fire it on the last tick) or as an "oh crap" that isn't quite as powerful as NS + HT.

That is really how I figured it would work. Turns what is left of the HoT into healing right now and adds a little bit more. So with Regrowth you turn the 1K HoT to instant healing and for Rejuv you turn the 1K HoT part to instant healing as well. But I like it throwing some more on the end of that.

I actually thought conflag worked that way for the warlock. Did the damage + whatever was left on the HoT part of immolate so that you didn't have to worry so much about when you used it. But I never got a lock with the spell and I never looked for that much info on it.

[Mavfin]

Oh how much I love such comments denying social realities.
Yes, perhaps people are narrowminded. Druids are useful raid members even if they wouldn't have specced innervate and I personally campaigned in our raid alliance to allow them to do so, because I think a happy player is a better player.

But things don't work this way. People are set in their ways and have developed dogmas: every druid has to have innervate, every priest has to be holy/disc, every mage has to be ice/arcane (on the other hand there is an unexplainable tolerance for offensive warriors).

Now you can of course refuse to cave in and stand your ground; sounds noble doesn't it? Surely there is some high end raiding guild that knows better and will tolerate your spec, right? Well reality will prove you wrong. On a med pop server, you will have perhaps like three raid groups that have downed Nef by now. What if all of these don't tolerate your spec? Then you have the choice of standing your ground, but not being able to raid with them or respecc, just to please them and get a raiding slot. This is the reality out there!

So I'm happy for my druid colleagues, as this is change accounting to the social realities that druids with raiding ambitions have to live in.
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Guess it depends on if you choose to limit yourself in this way. I raid in a group with Feral druids, Balance druids, DPS warriors, shadow priests, Fire Mages, Arcane Power mages, Dark Pact warlocks. We've taken Nef down each of the last 3 weeks, and will continue.

So, if you choose to blame it on 'social realities', confine that reality to your server, not mine.

[Rinnhart]

Guess it depends on if you choose to limit yourself in this way.  I raid in a group with Feral druids, Balance druids, DPS warriors, shadow priests, Fire Mages, Arcane Power mages, Dark Pact warlocks.  We've taken Nef down each of the last 3 weeks, and will continue. 

So, if you choose to blame it on 'social realities', confine that reality to your server, not mine.
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Retribution paladin.

[Mavfin]

Retribution paladin.
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Those, too :P

[Rinnhart]

Those, too :P
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Yeah, and say it on any public forum besides the lounge and the first ten posts will contain at least one form of verbal abuse.

Here, someone's thinking it, though they may not say it.

[lemekim]

Oh how much I love such comments denying social realities.
Yes, perhaps people are narrowminded. Druids are useful raid members even if they wouldn't have specced innervate and I personally campaigned in our raid alliance to allow them to do so, because I think a happy player is a better player.

But things don't work this way. People are set in their ways and have developed dogmas: every druid has to have innervate, every priest has to be holy/disc, every mage has to be ice/arcane (on the other hand there is an unexplainable tolerance for offensive warriors).

Now you can of course refuse to cave in and stand your ground; sounds noble doesn't it? Surely there is some high end raiding guild that knows better and will tolerate your spec, right? Well reality will prove you wrong. On a med pop server, you will have perhaps like three raid groups that have downed Nef by now. What if all of these don't tolerate your spec? Then you have the choice of standing your ground, but not being able to raid with them or respecc, just to please them and get a raiding slot. This is the reality out there!

So I'm happy for my druid colleagues, as this is change accounting to the social realities that druids with raiding ambitions have to live in.
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See the trick is to claim that you have Innervate, but whenever someone asks you for it, just claim that you have used it on someone else! :) And if you are the only druid in the raid... Just yell - WTH MY BROTHER/FRIEND/COUSIN/DOG RESPECCED ME FERAL! followed by a few curses, some complaints about respec costs and namecalling in the general direction of the alleged purpetrator! :)

[Treesh]

Those, too :P
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They're allowed on the raids, but how many times have they been allowed to tank? Damned few.

You guys like to say that avarice allows these different specs to raid (and you do), but you forget about all the negative comments about the the different specs in our GEM channel. "You aren't a real priest if you don't have Inner Focus" "Only an idiot would spec far enough into Holy to get Holy Nova" (pre-1.10 comments obviously ;) ). "Real tanks have Last Stand" Sound familiar to anyone? So, yeah, Avarice lets those "less than optimal" specs in the raid, but out of raiding, you still get many of the narrow attitudes.

Although, hurray for letting a feral druid tank Ony. :)

[Mavfin]

They're allowed on the raids, but how many times have they been allowed to tank?  Damned few.

You guys like to say that avarice allows these different specs to raid (and you do), but you forget about all the negative comments about the the different specs in our GEM channel.  "You aren't a real priest if you don't have Inner Focus" "Only an idiot would spec far enough into Holy to get Holy Nova" (pre-1.10 comments obviously ;) ).  "Real tanks have Last Stand"  Sound familiar to anyone?  So, yeah, Avarice lets those "less than optimal" specs in the raid, but out of raiding, you still get many of the narrow attitudes.

Although, hurray for letting a feral druid tank Ony. :)
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My experience is not so negative. I don't have Last Stand, and not one person has ever said anything about it. Maybe I'm not listening for negative comments. Maybe I don't make a good target to say that stuff to, and people talk behind my back. If they want to do that, they can go <censored> themselves. You want to talk about my spec, come talk to me, or shut up. :shuriken:

I frankly don't hear the voices you're talking about. I take that back. I do hear them, but I consider the source, and I ignore them. It's like Quark telling me how to tank, or me telling him how to play his rogue. He'd ignore me, and I'd ignore him, and rightly so.

It's very easy to let everyone else tell you how to play, in the same way that 'social realities' were alluded to earlier. You just have to play it your way, spec it the way that fits your playstyle, and play the best you can, and find ways to contribute. If you can do that, you can come raid with me anytime.

[Warlock]

I actually thought conflag worked that way for the warlock.&nbsp; Did the damage + whatever was left on the HoT part of immolate so that you didn't have to worry so much about when you used it.&nbsp; But I never got a lock with the spell and I never looked for that much info on it.
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Conflag damage isn't modifed by rank or ticks remaining of Immolate so I doubt Swiftheal will be. Nice idea though.

I used a feral build in raids after 1.8. I didn't ask permission before the respec because I'd have been asked not to. This left the GM with the choice between kicking out one of the guilds most consistent and knowledgeable officers or accepting a non-standard build. I always argued for letting other players spec as they wished as well but didn't manage to change his attitude.

[Mavfin]

Conflag damage isn't modifed by rank or ticks remaining of Immolate so I doubt Swiftheal will be. Nice idea though.

I used a feral build in raids after 1.8. I didn't ask permission before the respec because I'd have been asked not to.  This left the GM with the choice between kicking out one of the guilds most consistent and knowledgeable officers or accepting a non-standard build. I always argued for letting other players spec as they wished as well but didn't manage to change his attitude.
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And that's where Avarice is different. The raidleaders and most of the council are committed to the alternative builds being allowed to play to their strengths when they can. Some Alliance members-at-large are not so open-minded, and will say things behind others' back, and I hold those members in contempt for that, but can't do anything about them, other than ignore them. Thankfully, Avarice is solid enough that a few mushy apples don't ruin the pie for most of us. A few of us, like Treesh, it obviously has, and, as she has said she has left SR permanently, any further discussion or re-opening of that issue is pointless.

[Zarathustra]

Overall though, I'm over-joyed by this.&nbsp; :D I just worry that a can of worms is being opened.

PS. I bet there are a few moonkin druids out there who fell off their chairs when they read Eyonix's post. :)
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I, too, am a bit worried about the change. I had the conversation the other day with a guildmate who plays a mage about Evocation. My thoughts were that mages DON'T all "need" that skill, and it should rightly be something you need to spec for.

He said "Well, what if they gave all Druids Innervate?" to which I replied that I thought it was something that should also be specced for.

Blizzard's starting a trend of making the highly attractive talents into base skills. We can almost surely expect Warriors to have a base amount of rage they retain when changing stances in the near future, with Tactical Mastery either being decreased or removed alltogether.

And yes... as a Moonkin Druid... I fell out of my chair.

[MongoJerry]

I, too, am a bit worried about the change.&nbsp; I had the conversation the other day with a guildmate who plays a mage about Evocation.&nbsp; My thoughts were that mages DON'T all "need" that skill, and it should rightly be something you need to spec for.
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The trouble is that if you have a talent that is so over the top amazingly good, you effectively force the majority of players to get that talent and thereby effectively limit the variation within the class that talents are supposed to encourage. You're right that a mage doesn't "need" to have Evocation, but any mage without it will be at a severe disadvantage to those mages that do have it, especially in any sustained fight. This effectively forces mages to get it (except people after Lurkers own hearts who like to break away from cookie cutter builds), so you end up with mages who are either Arcane/Fire or Arcane/Ice, and those two builds basically play the same way. The same can be said for druids. Innervate is such a good skill that basically you either have it or you are gimped when in a party. This greatly limited the variation within the druid class. Once Innervate is made available to all druids, I don't think there will be as much antagonism about druids going feral or moonkin. Oh, sure, some, but not as much. That's a good thing.

[Zarathustra]

That's a good thing.
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Oh, I agree it's a good thing. I'm going to be quite happy to have an Innervate ready on my Moonkin. Granted, I'm of the mind that anyone who limits himself to one form is missing the whole point of the class, and as such will spend most of my time in raids OUT of Moonkin form... but that's a tangent.

I have a difficult time seeing things through the eyes of those who feel they're "forced" to spec a certain way, but am trying to sympathize. Still, I specced Moonkin knowing that I wouldn't have Innervate, and was willing to pay that price.

My worry is that they'll start caving to other skills in the same way. What happens if the rogue player base decides Cold Blood is a "must have"? Tactical Mastery has been called for by Warriors for months and Blizzard has yet to give any word on their plans for that talent, if any. Are all shamans going to get the mana totem now?

It's those kind of questions that have me wondering why they're doing this with Evocation/Innervate. I won't look a gift horse in the mouth, as it makes the Druid class more of the switch-hitting hybrid it was meant to be (and paves the way for more variation among non-31-point builds), but I'll be curious to see where they draw the line with this sort of tweak.

[MongoJerry]

Are all shamans going to get the mana totem now?[right][snapback]108741[/snapback][/right]

Actually, I heard some of the guys on teamspeak mention that this very thing is planned for 1.11 as part of the shaman talent review, but I don't know whether it's confirmed information or something they were speculating about. They sounded definitive, though. I think the idea is to have evocation, mana tide, and innervate all be learned trainer abilities.