Rogue 1.12 Preview

[Quark]

Drysc starts it off here (this post reached 10 pages within about 5 minutes). Snippits:

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The following talents have been removed: Improved Deadly Poison, Improved Distract, Throwing Weapon Specialization, Improved Vanish, and Rapid Concealment.

All either gone for good or combined with something else

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Improved Instant Poison is now "Improved Poisons" and increases your chance to apply ALL poisons by 2/4/6/8/10%.

Will also help with Wound, Mind Numbing, and Crippling besides what we could just talent before. The crippling can be a big help in PvP as it is our main anti-kite.

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Rapid Concealment has been merged with Camouflage, by combining these talents you not only get a great talent to start off the tree, but obviously it frees up a number of points to be spent elsewhere.

Ironically this doesn't make me want Camouflage anymore currently (I'm 3 MoD, 2 Camo right now). I still want them equally, the addition of Rapid Concealment is simply not a help because I'm almost always in combat longer than it takes for the stealth cooldown anyway.

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Murder will now also apply to all finishing moves. The benefit this will provide to output and attack combinations is fairly straightforward.

Nice bonus, but still useless once you get enough +hit elsewise (my openers and finishers don't miss, only my melee attacks do).

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Vile Poisons now gives your poisons a chance to resist dispel effects, in addition to increasing poison damage.

This combined with Improved Poisons can be very powerful PvP wise.

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Improved Kidney Shot has been changed, and will instead increase the damage taken by the target while they are affected by Kidney Shot. This talent no longer reduces the cooldown of Kidney Shot.

Interesting change. Will have to see numbers for how useful it is. At the least, it's not a counter-productive talent anymore.

Imp KS used to reduce cooldown below 15 seconds, meaning if you actually used it you were subjecting yourself to diminishing returns.

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Improved Sprint has been changed, and will instead have a 50/100% chance to remove all movement impairing effects when you activate your Sprint ability. This talent no longer reduces the cooldown of Sprint.

While I can see the value of it, there's no way I'm taking it still.

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Improved Evasion renamed to Endurance, and will add a Sprint cooldown reduction.

Another PvP-only talent.

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New talent Weapon Expertise in the Combat tree, increases your weapon skill with all melee weapons. The recovery of damage with an increased weapon skill should be a good boost to overall output.

This here is the gem. This is the single most important change, PvE wise. For sword/mace rogues, it means they can keep up to Humans in DPS. For dagger rogues, it means we can finally get rid of Aged Core Leather Gloves and Mugger's Belt without seeing a drop in DPS.

The big question is where in the tree? Combat tree is already loaded with talents, if they stick this down in the only hole they created (Imp Throwing Weapon), they've managed to destroy the delicate balance between Daggers and Swords, as reasonable dagger builds can't go this far into Combat.

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Initiative is being reduced to a 3 point talent, but resulting in the same 75% end chance to add an additional combo point.

PvP again.

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Elusiveness is being reduced to a 3 point talent, but resulting in the same 75 sec cooldown reduction to Evasion, Blind, and Vanish.

With all these changes to cooldown-based talents I'm wondering what a cooldown based PvP build would be like in 1.12 ...

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Ghostly Strike now has a reduced Energy cost, the reduction of Energy was enough to make it necessary to also reduce the damage output slightly.

Another PvP idea.

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Improved Garrotes damage reduction will be removed. This is being changed as part of an overall improvement for Garrote.

Will have to see the overall change, but it's good that this talent will no longer sacrifice DPS for a minimal overall damage increase.

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Setup is being moved higher up in the tree, becoming a 16 point talent with no prerequisites, helping move the talent in reach of specific builds.

Still a leveling/soloing only talent, in my eyes. Just easier to get now.

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New talent Heightened Senses in the subtlety tree, increases your Stealth detection, and reduces the chance for you to be hit by spells and ranged attacks.

Ouch ... the one talent every rogue will want but won't be able to reach?

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Hemorrhage will be moved up in the tree to become a 21 point talent. This should help to place the ability in a more reachable position, and allow for a little more versatility with specific talent builds.

Will need to see the new trees. Hemo isn't worth it now because it sacrifices the chance to get way too many damage talents along the way. Is 5 less a big enough change?

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New talent Deadliness in the Subtlety tree, increases your Attack Power by a percentage.

Ah, here's the Subtlety bandaid ala Hunter's Survival Lighting Reflexes. Try to make an entire tree better because of one sick talent. Again, will have to see the trees to check out builds ...

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Premeditation will have its Energy requirement removed, changed to an instant cast, and range increased. Its cooldown will remain the same. Premeditation will now be pre-reqd by Preperation.

Wonder if any reasonable rogue build will use it yet ...

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Vanish will now remove effects that allow the caster to remain aware of the rogues presence, such as Mind Vision and Hunters Mark.

Huh, imagine that. A counter-counter, finally.

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Garrote, Rupture, and Eviscerate are being increased in damage. More details to come.

Hopefully none of them are static anymore.

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Expose Armor will now reduce armor by a percentage.

... but will it stack with Sunder Armor? This could be a huge PvP change. A great buff versus protection warriors in particular. It's still meaningless in PvE if we can't use it with Sunder Armor.

Overall, tons of PvP based changes, especially of the cooldown variety. Cold Blood / Preparation looks to be outdated for PvP now. I'm worried about the PvE aspect, though. Unless that +weapon skill talent is reachable, the best overall build (Combat Daggers) got exactly zero improvements, the second best (Combat Swords) balanced Humans with everyone else, and all the others still won't reach the levels of these two. In which case we're just back to the "DPS + utility" argument again.

Particularly sobering is no change to Lethality. Before every rogue looked at it and said "NEED". Scaling is pushing it out the door though. Recent mathcraft has put it at about a .9% total damage increase per talent point if you're using Backstab. That's below the standard 1% per talent overall, and way below 2% per talent specialized (think Mage Fire/Frost) guidlines Blizzard has typically followed.

Is Initiative really the only talent that has a reduced talent point cost, now?

I'm really hoping the unannounced changes finish this off. PvP is good now, maybe too good, but that wasn't what I wanted changed. There's still holes.

Edit: I give up. Quote refuses to work, but Code does. It's staying as code.

[Lissa]

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Vanish will now remove effects that allow the caster to remain aware of the rogues presence, such as Mind Vision and Hunters Mark.

Huh, imagine that. A counter-counter, finally.

And if it goes in Quark, this ruins two of the things that the Hunter is designed to do in PvP, be anti-Rogue. The Hunter is s'posed to be the Rogue's foil and by making it so Vanish can remove Hunter's Mark, which keeping a Stealthed target trackable is part of what Hunter's Mark is about is just too powerful. The Hunters have already had one skilled nerfed for dealing with Rogues, having a second is just plain bad.

And don't give me, "but with a mark on me I'm a dead man," that's what having a foil is all about in PvP. Warlocks are the foil of Mages, Hunters are the foils of Rogues, Rogues are the foils of all casters, Mages are the foils of Warriors, and the list goes on and on. Take away Hunter's Mark from the Hunter by giving the Rogue away to get rid of it means that the Rogue loses one of it's foils and the Hunter loses what they were designed to defeat.

The change to Vanish is bad, pure and simple.

[MongoJerry]

All of my guild's rogues on our teamspeak were wildly enthusiastic about everything they read. I couldn't understand a third of what they were saying, since I've never played a rogue, but the comment repeatedly made was, "This was the kind of review I wanted." A couple of them were particularly happy about Weapon Expertise from a raider point of view.

[Watto44]

[bitter]
Well, it's nice to see that two of my druids tricks have affectively been made redundant now. I might as well take abolish poison and fairy fire off my hot bars and bend over everytime a rogue looks at me funny.
[/bitter]

Congratulations to the rogues. Looks like they got a nice change, although any pve changes are well beyond my understanding.:)

[Rinnhart]

New talent Heightened Senses in the subtlety tree, increases your Stealth detection, and reduces the chance for you to be hit by spells and ranged attacks.

Reduced chance to be hit by spells? Is that, a flat resist increase? Chance to mitigate single target effects?

I honestly don't get the PVP focused changes when PVP's never been a problem area. The class is dynamic and unique in a PVP setting. PVE, the lack of functionality for so many of the interesting abilities (traps, lockpicking, stuns, openers) has always been my biggest complaint.

The vanish changes... meh, really. Dots will still break it stealth, so make sure you land a sting. Mark's not a dramatically damaging effect, I've already blown my opener combo for you to be casting it on me, it's just annoying.

The "chance for poison to resist dispell" - how big a chance? If it's not much, it's worthless, and if it's significant, it's a huge knock against dispelling classes.

[Watto44]

Reduced chance to be hit by spells? Is that, a flat resist increase? Chance to mitigate single target effects?

I honestly don't get the PVP focused changes when PVP's never been a problem area. The class is dynamic and unique in a PVP setting. PVE, the lack of functionality for so many of the interesting abilities (traps, lockpicking, stuns, openers) has always been my biggest complaint.

The vanish changes... meh, really. Dots will still break it stealth, so make sure you land a sting. Mark's not a dramatically damaging effect, I've already blown my opener combo for you to be casting it on me, it's just annoying.

The "chance for poison to resist dispell" - how big a chance? If it's not much, it's worthless, and if it's significant, it's a huge knock against dispelling classes.

Agreed that the PvE aspect of the rogue was/might-still-be the problem. However, that's a problem that every class faces to a greater or lesser extent. The fact of the matter is that utility isn't really that handy in most raid situations, and pidgeon-holing is the nature of the 40 headed beast - much as we might wish it wasn't. (That could of course be different in Naxx, I don't know.) As long as rogues can maintain a competetive DPS to damage taken ratio in a raid situation I feel that the changes will have been successful.

While the change to vanish might seem trivial given that DoTs will still break stealth, it does mean that rogues will be able to vanish-cheap shot in between damage ticks which is HUGE. If you can couple that with improved sprint...ouchie. (I just had a hideous vision of a rogue sprinting out of my roots, improved kicking me then vanish-cheap shotting in between moonfire ticks. Even if I hit bear form before the stun, that's going to hurt.)

I agree that the vile poison change will turn on the percentage chance. However, even if it is small, my margin for error against skilled rogues is already incredibly small and abolish poison not cleansing could very well tip the balance.

But, like all PvP changes, the impact won't really be known until the changes go live.:)

[lfd]

Well, it's nice to see that two of my druids tricks have affectively been made redundant now. I might as well take abolish poison and fairy fire off my hot bars and bend over everytime a rogue looks at me funny.

Er, melodrama?

For a start, faerie fire isn't a movement-impairing effect, so wouldn't be affected by the vanish change; however, that's moot since it makes it impossible for the rogue to stealth or vanish anyway (we receive a lovely little "Immune" message). Think of mob's "banish" skill; it's a magic-based debuff, but it can't be dispelled from players because they're immune. FF will get slightly more useful rather than less.

It's a bit early to declare poison-removal useless until we know how big a chance to resist the talent confers, especially as poison-removal skills are not on a cooldown.

[Watto44]

Er, melodrama?

Hehe, that's why my first post was tagged with [bitter].:)

For a start, faerie fire isn't a movement-impairing effect, so wouldn't be affected by the vanish change; however, that's moot since it makes it impossible for the rogue to stealth or vanish anyway (we receive a lovely little "Immune" message). Think of mob's "banish" skill; it's a magic-based debuff, but it can't be dispelled from players because they're immune. FF will get slightly more useful rather than less.

Umm, did you actually read the change that has been made to vanish? "Will now remove effects that allow the caster to remain awair of the rogues presence". I take that to mean fairy fire as well as the quoted hunter's mark and mind vision. Vanish has always removed movement impairing effects. The new Improved Sprint talent, however, now gives sprint a 100% chance to remove snares. Hence, my Howard Hawks turn. Probably my poor phrasing that caused the misunderstanding.:)

As I said before, the true impact of these changes on pvp won't be felt until rogues have a chance to play with their new toys and everyone else has a chance to think of work around strategies.:)

PS. Currently, rogues can use the vanish skill while affected by fairy fire. They won't gain stealth from it, but it will remove snares (like entangling roots) on them.

[Quark]

Lissa, you are so beyond exaggerating that it's not even funny at this point.

Yes, Vanish will now break Hunter's Mark. Big deal. Every class still has tons of ways to break stealth (which is different from preventing stealth). Let's say it's just you (a Hunter) versus a Rogue. We'll even make it a Preparation Rogue to skew the argument in your favor. You of course Hunters Mark at the beginning of the fight. Rogue gets caught in a bad position and Vanishes. Oh my god, you're done for!. Wait, no ... you can Flare. Hit up Hunters Mark again, and any non-Prep rogue can not stealth for 2 minutes or until he dies. But you're fighting a Prep rogue. So the Rogue gets in a bind again, and Vanishes again. If the 15 seconds is up, you just Flare again. If not, well guess what? You didn't DoT the Rogue, live with the consequences.

Every other class DoTs us, why didn't you?

This isn't a huge change mid fight. It's a very minor one at best. What it does change is after a fight, or if a Hunter is 100 yards away and gets a freebie Hunter's Mark in, the Rogue is no longer screwed for 2 minutes.

[Quark]

I think it would be kind of funny if it did considering Faerie Fire restricts stealthing, but no, it isn't intended to remove Faerie Fire.

That is what I expected. Faerie Fire still prevents Vanish/Stealth (nothing else in the game prevented them, they just broke them on use).

Expose Armor will stack with Sunder... now the important question is if the -% armor comes first or the -armor comes first.

As for the poisons, chance to resist is just that -> upon application of the poison, do you resist it or not? Crippling poison not proccing on an enemy can be death for a Rogue. Crippling Poison proccing, but being resisted by the target, is ironic yet just as deadly. You'll still be able to remove it, a Rogue would just have a greater chance of applying it in the first place.

[Rinnhart]

As for the poisons, chance to resist is just that -> upon application of the poison, do you resist it or not? Crippling poison not proccing on an enemy can be death for a Rogue. Crippling Poison proccing, but being resisted by the target, is ironic yet just as deadly. You'll still be able to remove it, a Rogue would just have a greater chance of applying it in the first place.

The wording indicates that poison effects would themselves have a chance to resist cures, not that the target would have a reduced chance to resist application.

This isn't a huge change mid fight. It's a very minor one at best. What it does change is after a fight, or if a Hunter is 100 yards away and gets a freebie Hunter's Mark in, the Rogue is no longer screwed for 2 minutes.

Sorta. You still have to burn a 5 minute cooldown to remove that 100 yard mark.

[Quark]

Hmm, I read the poisons wrong. In that case, the %s will dictate everything. It would be nice to cripple a flag carrier and actually have a chance of it sticking.

Sorta. You still have to burn a 5 minute cooldown to remove that 100 yard mark.

Yes, but I'd rather be slightly-less effective for 5 minutes then completely useless for 2.

[Rinnhart]

Hmm, I read the poisons wrong. In that case, the %s will dictate everything. It would be nice to cripple a flag carrier and actually have a chance of it sticking.
Yes, but I'd rather be slightly-less effective for 5 minutes then completely useless for 2.

Alright, I have a gripe: all of this is empowering the rogue, by a possibly substancial amount, as an individual. With proper group support, hunters mark and root effects were never a significant threat to a rogue's ability to do their job- kill things.

This is counter to the standing design logic that was applied to mage and paladin concerns during their reviews; the classes are defenseless under specific circumstances. The response was that with group support those circumstances could be mitigated. Alot of the new talent features mitigate the standing weakness of the rogue class: the ease with which they may be kited. But the class was already pretty damn well off in this area, with vanish as a root breaker and sprint to close distances.

I do see the functionality of giving combat spec a second root breaker vs. prep spec's second vanish, but I'm not sure I agree that a heavy combat build needs the additional utility.

[Artega]

Expose Armor will stack with Sunder... now the important question is if the -% armor comes first or the -armor comes first.

The flat reduction will almost certainly come first; reducing a raid mob or boss to pathetically low armor would be very possible if the percentage occurred first.

Assuming it will be 10%/20%/30%/40%/50%, you're looking at a raid boss with something like 6000 Armor (assuming he has 16,500 Armor for 75% reduction base) after Sunders, which would be a huge increase in physical DPS. Of course, Blizzard could simply design boss fights around this principle.

[Lissa]

Lissa, you are so beyond exaggerating that it's not even funny at this point.

Yes, Vanish will now break Hunter's Mark. Big deal. Every class still has tons of ways to break stealth (which is different from preventing stealth). Let's say it's just you (a Hunter) versus a Rogue. We'll even make it a Preparation Rogue to skew the argument in your favor. You of course Hunters Mark at the beginning of the fight. Rogue gets caught in a bad position and Vanishes. Oh my god, you're done for!. Wait, no ... you can Flare. Hit up Hunters Mark again, and any non-Prep rogue can not stealth for 2 minutes or until he dies. But you're fighting a Prep rogue. So the Rogue gets in a bind again, and Vanishes again. If the 15 seconds is up, you just Flare again. If not, well guess what? You didn't DoT the Rogue, live with the consequences.

Every other class DoTs us, why didn't you?

This isn't a huge change mid fight. It's a very minor one at best. What it does change is after a fight, or if a Hunter is 100 yards away and gets a freebie Hunter's Mark in, the Rogue is no longer screwed for 2 minutes.

And you forget that Flare has a big red sign saying "DO NOT STAND HERE" now Quark. Come one, the Rogues cried about Flare, now Blizzard wants to take away another aspect that makes the Hunter anti-Rogue. Every class in this game has two foils, for Rogues it's Hunters and Warriors. For Mages it's Warlocks and Priests. For Warriors it's Warlocks and Mages. The list goes on.

The whole points of Hunter's Mark is to add some RAP against the target AND make the target trackable. So why suddenly should Vanish be making you no longer trackable when things like FF stop you from being able to use Stealth or Vanish. As much as you don't want to think about, HM is designed to act in a way like FF, it is there to make the Rogue trackable and prevent them from getting away.

So don't give me this crap about I'm exagerating. Go read what HM says sometime Quark and you'll see why this change is bad.

[Rinnhart]

I very much doubt that it's 10% per point.

And you forget that Flare has a big red sign saying "DO NOT STAND HERE" now Quark. Come one, the Rogues cried about Flare, now Blizzard wants to take away another aspect that makes the Hunter anti-Rogue.

Consecration. Huge, visible effect, very effective for breaking stealth.

Every class in this game has two foils, for Rogues it's Hunters and Warriors. For Mages it's Warlocks and Priests. For Warriors it's Warlocks and Mages. The list goes on.

Two foils? Are we playing the same game? Mages are at an incredible disadvantage against any healing class. Warlocks simply eat every class. Warrior and rogue DPS continues to rise relentlessly as caster survivability (besides warlocks) hasn't increased since MC.

The game is not rock-paper-scissors.

[Quark]

And you forget that Flare has a big red sign saying "DO NOT STAND HERE" now Quark.

I Vanish, then you cast Flare ... stealth gone. Was that so hard?

Every class in this game has two foils, for Rogues it's Hunters and Warriors.

And warlocks ...
Anyway, Hunters still have a clear advantage over Rogues. To even argue elsewise is rediculous. It's just not as blatant anymore.

The whole points of Hunter's Mark is to add some RAP against the target AND make the target trackable. So why suddenly should Vanish be making you no longer trackable when things like FF stop you from being able to use Stealth or Vanish. As much as you don't want to think about, HM is designed to act in a way like FF, it is there to make the Rogue trackable and prevent them from getting away.

It isn't like FF. FF prevents Stealth completely. As in I click Stealth and get an "Immune" message on my screen. Faerie Fire also has a shorter duration and can't be cast from 100 yards away.

It's a complete joke to put HM up on a Rogue. It's no longer a "haha, GG rogue go home!" button too. Use your other abilities. Don't say you don't have them.

[Mavfin]

I Vanish, then you cast Flare ... stealth gone. Was that so hard?
And warlocks ...
Anyway, Hunters still have a clear advantage over Rogues. To even argue elsewise is rediculous. It's just not as blatant anymore.
It isn't like FF. FF prevents Stealth completely. As in I click Stealth and get an "Immune" message on my screen. Faerie Fire also has a shorter duration and can't be cast from 100 yards away.

It's a complete joke to put HM up on a Rogue. It's no longer a "haha, GG rogue go home!" button too. Use your other abilities. Don't say you don't have them.

Yeah, HM wouldn't be such a joke if you couldn't put it on from 100 yards. If it was 30 or even 40 yards it would be quite a bit better. That's the problem. It's *how it's used*, same as the FD/Trap combo is abused. Too many hunters abuse their abilities in ways that just beg to be nerfed. Lissa, you may not use yours in this way, but, few ever show restraint. The rule *seems to be* "The game lets me do it, so it's my right to do so!", not "is this cheesy?"

[Lissa]

I Vanish, then you cast Flare ... stealth gone. Was that so hard?

Or you stun, Vanish, and by the time I'm out of stun and can use Flare, you're out of the AoE and then I have to wait for you to attack again.

And warlocks ...

Only if they get the jump on you and not vice versa. About the only Warlock that could possibly stand a chance against a Rogue if the Rogue gets in close and get's the jump is a Soul Link Warlock. Any other is going to die, even in epic to epic gear.

Anyway, Hunters still have a clear advantage over Rogues. To even argue elsewise is rediculous. It's just not as blatant anymore.

That is what Foils are about Quark. As a Rogue, you have a cleared advantage over Mages and Priests and most Warlocks. The Rogue was designed for Anti-cloth duty when it comes to PvP. What's so hard to believe that another class(es) are designed for anti-Rogue duty?

It isn't like FF. FF prevents Stealth completely. As in I click Stealth and get an "Immune" message on my screen. Faerie Fire also has a shorter duration and can't be cast from 100 yards away.

You're right, it isn't like FF, but, it is ment to track something for the player. Read the skill sometime.

It's a complete joke to put HM up on a Rogue. It's no longer a "haha, GG rogue go home!" button too. Use your other abilities. Don't say you don't have them.

Have you paid attention to anything I said about classes being foils of each other? Every class was designed with a particular role in mind in PvP. By changing Vanish in this way, they are taking away one of the Rogue's foils.

[Artega]

Have you paid attention to anything I said about classes being foils of each other? Every class was designed with a particular role in mind in PvP. By changing Vanish in this way, they are taking away one of the Rogue's foils.

The game is not balanced rock-paper-scissors style. Any class can effectively deal with any other class with a certain talent spec and level of skill.

Mages are supposedly a Warrior's foil, yet I have very little trouble in wrecking them without taking very much damage. Maybe the Mages I've been butchering suck, but even the best Mage I've fought wasn't extremely difficult, and he's Frost. Obviously, I can't do much against cooldown Mages (I think AP+Pyro is the build), since they'll fry me before I can do any real damage to them, but that also means they're effortless until their CDs are back up.

Druids are supposed to be able to beat Warriors easily, yet Restoration Druids are the only kind that give me any kind of difficulty; Feral builds can't do nearly enough damage to me, and Balance builds go OOM well before I'm in danger of death.

I've also heard people say that Pallies should beat Warriors with reasonable ease, yet I've still yet to encounter a Paladin that I've had to play at my highest level to beat. This includes Pallies of all three build types (Holy is by far the most numerous, from what I've seen.) Holy can be a pain with Holy Shock for a burst heal, Retribution is effortless, and Protection is a 30-minute duel.

Like Quark has said, I seriously doubt Vanish killing Hunter's Mark is going to make Hunters useless against a Rogue. You could always just drop a Flare and camp on a trap until the Rogue loses interest. Or, since it's possible we're talking about BG PvP here (and I'm assuming we are, since Quark plays on a PvE server), you could simply tag him with a Serpent Sting and laugh as the rest of your team butchers him when the poison knocks him out of Stealth.

EDIT: Additionally, I don't think any class has a set role in PvP (well, besides classes with heals being healers in addition to whatever else they enjoy doing.) A cookiecutter MS/Enrage Warrior can cut down squishies just as fast (or even faster) than any Rogue can, and Priests can do single-target damage more effectively than Mages and perhaps Warlocks, given the correct spec.