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oldmandennis · 07-07-2006, 06:14 PM

It was mentioned on the EJ forums, and I confirmed it last night. 8/8 EF changes your healing wave to heal three people, for a 25% boost to healing on any kind of splash damage fight. Each person healed has a chance to proc the 5/8 mana surge bonus of 35%. If you hit 3 people, you get a 58% chance to proc surge, which over time is a 20% reduction in the cost of healing wave.

There's no way for a dopey lightning shield to compare to that.

Kevin · 07-07-2006, 07:40 PM

Quote:It was mentioned on the EJ forums, and I confirmed it last night. 8/8 EF changes your healing wave to heal three people, for a 25% boost to healing on any kind of splash damage fight. Each person healed has a chance to proc the 5/8 mana surge bonus of 35%. If you hit 3 people, you get a 58% chance to proc surge, which over time is a 20% reduction in the cost of healing wave.

There's no way for a dopey lightning shield to compare to that.

I was wondering about that, was also wondering if the jump would apply the healing way buff (if you have the talent) to people as well. Not that that is a huge benefit but if you can stack that buff on 3 people with one cast it's just another side benefit.

I'd heard debates that even without the set bonuses that Ten Storms was worse than EF anyway.

The plus healing number is the sum of +healing and +damage/healing. The +damage is just the damage/healing.

Earthfury
+ healing: 125
+ damage: 27
spell crit: 2
mana/5: 20
Armor: 2427
Stamina: 127
Intellect: 148
Spirit: 112
Fire: 34
Shadow: 24
Durability: 635

Ten Storms:
+ healing: 148
+ damage: 89
spell crit: 2%
mana/5: 12
Armor: 2773
Stamina: 134
Intellect: 157
Spirit: 105
Fire: 40
Nature: 10
Frost: 10
Shadow: 30
Arcane: 10

Change 'upgrading' from EF to TS
+ healing: 23
+ damage: 62
spell crit: 0
mana/5: -8
Armor: 346
Stamina: 7
Intellect: 9
Spirit: -7
Fire: 6
Shadow: 6
Nature: 10
Frost: 10
Arcane: 10
Durability: 0

The reasons I heard are that most of the resists are irrelevant or negligable. And that losing 8 mana/5 and 7 spirit was not made up for with 23 more healing and 9 int. The fight only has to last 84 seconds before the mana/5 makes up for the lost int.

Mavfin · (This post was last modified: 07-10-2006, 03:52 PM by Mavfin.)

I guess it depends on if you're strictly a healbot in raids or not....for an elemental build like my own, +62 dam and more int and more resists is nothing to sneeze at. Sure, I'd keep some of the EF for healing gear when I know I'm going to be a healbot.

lemekim · 07-10-2006, 05:30 PM

Quote:I was wondering about that, was also wondering if the jump would apply the healing way buff (if you have the talent) to people as well.

It does apply the buff. Which is pretty crazy.

Kevin · 07-10-2006, 07:24 PM

So Mav's post got me thinking about the Dungeon 2 (or T0.5) set and shaman. As he pointed out for T2 to be considered useless it needs to be outdone on the other side of the shaman coin. He has a very valid point and I'm just wanting to look at it more closely. Good discussion it seems to be generating.

The sets - This does not include set bonuses

Code:
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Earthfury(T1) Ten Storms(T2)&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp; Five Thunders(D2)

+ healing:&nbsp;&nbsp;125&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 148&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; 95

+ damage:&nbsp;&nbsp; 27&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;89&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp; 95

spell crit: 2%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp; 2%

mana/5:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 20&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp; 12

Armor:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2427&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2773&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp; 2196

Strength:&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; 63

Stamina:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;127&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 134&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; 113

Intellect:&nbsp;&nbsp;148&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 157&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; 112

Spirit:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 112&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 105&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; 73

Fire:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 34&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;40&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp; 0

Nature:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp; 0

Frost:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp; 0

Shadow:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 24&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;30&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp; 0

Arcane:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp; 0

Durability: 635&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 635&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; 585

As I mentioned in my other post when looking at T1 vs T2 the extra 9 mana on T2 doesn't matter if the fight lasts at least 84 seconds of you constantly casting because of the difference in mana/5, if you stop casting T1 has more spirit too so it will shorten the time to the 9 mana not being as good more quickly. Most battles, even many of the trash pulls, in raids will reach the 30-45 second mark, even the 1.5 minute Rag kills break that 84 second barrier. So I think the int side is pretty well covered as being worse or negligible because of the superior regen (and there is more spirit on T1 too).

Mav mentioned the +damage because of his build so I got cursious about Five Thunders since it is all +damage and healing on that set. As the chart shows it turns out that Five Thunders has better +damage than Ten Storms as well. However the stam, armor and int gaps are significantly bigger, and while 5T has the same mana/5 it has less spirit so it's losing on that regen front talked about already. Of course if you are swinging a weapon, 5T has 63 str vs 0 on the raid sets and that much str is 9 DPS (126 AP, 14 AP = 1 DPS) with the weapon.

Pure stats I'll give the nod to T2 over D2 for damage. The extra int and better regen will beat out the 6 extra spell damage. But I can't stop at just the stats, have to look at set bonuses.

10 Storms Gives:
30% more healing for the 2nd and 3rd targets of a chain heal
3% nature spell crit (so the heals, lightning, and eartshock)
Gives a chance at a 50 damage lightning shield on the target when after you heal them.

The 3% crit is very nice for damage even if a couple of spells don't get it. It's hard to factor the lightning shield deal but it will help a groups DPS if you do any amount of healing. However I think that since we are looking at doing damage you'll only be spot healing which will make that LS damage pretty minimal.

Five Thunders gives:
8 all ressit
A chance on any spell cast to add 95 damage and healing for 10 seconds
23 damage and healing
200 armor

So a full Five Thunders is 2396 armor (just 31 behind T1 and 374 behind T2) and 118 damage and healing which is 29 more damage than T2 though it is 30 healing less.

I'd give the nod that 3% nature spell crit will be more damage than the chance a cast will proc giving the 95 damage and healing bonus for next couple of spells. The 45 extra int (which is 675 mana) is like 2.5 lightning bolts or 1.5 earth shocks, that can't be ignored as a DPS casting shaman can run dry pretty quick. I think we can mostly ignore the LS proc as mentioned because that requires you to heal, not do damage. I think the T2 set might still win for the damage set over the Dungeon 2 set, the 3% nature spell crit is a big deal and the extra mana could be a big deal. The extra survivabilty from the stamina can not be ignored either. It is still going to be behind by 9 DPS for melee attacks, and 29 damage and healing. And with the 8 piece set bonus being the weakest of the bunch on Dungeon 2 you could just get that 6 piece and still have two other slots to play with likely making it even stronger. Of course you can do that with the T2 set as well (get the 5 piece bonus and put 3 other pieces in there) so I'm not really going down that road.

Regardless, even though I think on paper the T2 set is still going to be the slightly better option for damage over the Dungeon 2 set, I think it still points to a problem in shaman itemization that I wasn't nearly as a aware of until this thread got me thinking about it. The T1 set looks to be better for a healing shaman, the T2 set looks like it would be better for a hybrid DPS and healing shaman. The Dungeon 2 set looks to be nearly as good as any of the other sets for a DPS shaman. Though without having done the research, I'm betting that like many of the other hybrids or "variants" (i.e. you play a class in a way that Blizzard doesn't seem to think it should be played in a raid) that item sets aren't the way to go anyway.

It's also true that the T2 set is a sidegrade for several other classes as well (again mainly considering what Blizzard seems to think is the primary role for that class), generally making several of the classes a bit more "hybrid" by keeping the 'primary' role at about the same level but giving a little more power to the secondary role. The shaman set though seems to weaken the primary role, partly because of changes to the class after the items were implemented, fairly hard. The biggest weakness of shaman healing from what I understand is longevity. The T1 set has the T2 set beat pretty easily on that score with the stats and set bonuses. That 5 set bonus is a big longevity boost and with it working so nice with the 8 piece bonus it gets even better.

Yeah I'd like to see some itemization help for shaman after looking at some of this more closely. Paladins don't have it as bad. A DPS paladin can start to gear up like a DPS warrior to up the damage, they will have to sacrifice most of their healing though and there is no such think as a caster DPS paladin. :) Shaman can look at some of the hunter DPS items but really since hunter itemization is pretty poor and limited as is there aren't a lot of options there and honeslty +agi +int isn't all that great for a melee DPS shaman, is so so for the caster/melee DPS shaman, and is meh for a pure caster DPS shaman. So that has them dipping down into some of the druid leathers. Yeah there are some pieces out there that are great for the DPS shaman (be it melee or caster) but it seems there is a bigger itemization problem for shamans than I had ever suspected. No wonder so many of the DPS shaman really chomp at the bit to get some of the PvP rewards there just isn't much for them in the PvE world.

oldmandennis · 07-10-2006, 08:25 PM

Quote:It's hard to factor the lightning shield deal but it will help a groups DPS if you do any amount of healing.

Anybody know the proc rate on that lightning shield? I would strongly guess that it is not really so much damage, as aggro you are trying to add there. 50 damage sourced at the tank is effectivly ~ 1200 damage in aggro sensitive encounters.

Mana is indeed the bane of Shaman, and a 20% reduction in the cost of your heals blows away any other possible set bonus. If they were going to make 10storms the elemental set, it would be nice if atleast 2/3 of the set bonuses applied to elemental damage.

As far as elemental shaman go -I'm not trying to tell you how to play- but they seem to be the worst of the "magic damage healers" because they have no group utility and the talents have so little cross over utility.

Kevin · 07-10-2006, 08:41 PM

Quote:Anybody know the proc rate on that lightning shield? I would strongly guess that it is not really so much damage, as aggro you are trying to add there. 50 damage sourced at the tank is effectivly ~ 1200 damage in aggro sensitive encounters.

Mana is indeed the bane of Shaman, and a 20% reduction in the cost of your heals blows away any other possible set bonus. If they were going to make 10storms the elemental set, it would be nice if atleast 2/3 of the set bonuses applied to elemental damage.

As far as elemental shaman go -I'm not trying to tell you how to play- but they seem to be the worst of the "magic damage healers" because they have no group utility and the talents have so little cross over utility.

Yeah I'm not disagreeing what you say really. My post was partly my thought process to realizing just how bad the shaman itemization appears to be.

And yeah the elemental damage shaman seem to have a tough road to follow. Even a well geared moonkin just doesn't seem to do enough damage in a PvE setting in a lot of cases which is why I lean to the feral side. I've yet to see a moonkin in similar level gearing to a feral come close in damage and don't see any real difference in their healing. When I think of a DPS shaman I do think of elemental and enhancement mixed, they work a lot of melee damage in with the elemental damage. I don't see the elemental + resto shaman being a very good build. I do feel and elemental/enhance will still add a lot to a group even without improved weapon totems but that point is a minor one.

Mavfin · (This post was last modified: 07-10-2006, 08:53 PM by Mavfin.)

Quote:As far as elemental shaman go -I'm not trying to tell you how to play- but they seem to be the worst of the "magic damage healers" because they have no group utility and the talents have so little cross over utility.

Well, actually I have plenty of group utility. I have a good mana pool to totem with. I have quite a bit of +damage/heal to heal with, and can put on more +heal to heal with if I know that's what I need to be doing for the next time period. In small groups, I can easily be #2 DPS behind a mage/rogue/other pure damage dealer, and still help out on the healing side if things go south. I can carry ankhs. I feel you have a *very* narrow view of what is 'useful'. Glad I'm with people who find more things useful that my shaman can do, other than just another healbot. I wouldn't want to be a non-resto druid raiding with your bunch, either.

For the record, I *do* heal quite a bit in 40-mans, so I have no problem with my shaman healing when it is needed, but I"m not going to stand around and wait for healing that isn't needed on trash, when I can be using my mana more productively to the raid. Also, I don't go in to do damage as my primary thing, elemental or not. I know I can't keep up with the dedicated damage dealers. I play the flex-shaman role a lot. I add damage when I can, and add healing when I need to. Would it be more *efficient* to put someone more 'properly specced' in my place? In an idealized raid-guild environment, probably. But that's not the world I play in. If it's yours, that's your choice.

EDIT: a note added after GG's post: my shammy is elem/enhance, so yes, I can do some damage with my big 2h in between casts of heals or shocks or bolts. Elem/Resto isn't a great build, I agree.

oldmandennis · (This post was last modified: 07-11-2006, 08:32 AM by oldmandennis.)

Jebus, you guys are touchy about this. Even when I try and make a disclamer in the original comment like

Quote:-I'm not trying to tell you how to play-

you still launch into the same old arguement.

When I said elemental shamans are the weakest, I ment that nothing in the elemental trees or the using of elemental skills helps the rest of a 40 man raid or your primary raid function. OOMkin bring omen of clarity, thorns, moonglow, moonkin crit for your mages, and natures grace. Ferals bring a healthy mana bar and LOTP. Shadow priests bring VE and weaving.

It's a bit silly that you cast aspersions on me and my friends, especially when you know just about nothing about us. FYI, our number 2 shaman is SS speced, of all the goofy things. We make fun of him about it, but it doesn't stop him from getting into raids and performing really well. He wants to win and not wipe though, so he gets on his best healing gear and plays like every other shaman on any nontrivial encounter.

As far as clearing trash goes, just because I realize the cubbyhole that shaman have been put into doesn't mean I don't have a damage set on my item rack. It cuts both ways - why would you assume I'm twiddling my thumbs on core hounds waiting for health bars to drop? Give me a little credit.

The point of this thread is that with this set bonus relevation, 10 storms is no longer a situational, mix and match sidegrade to Earthfury. It is a straight down grade on any fight where 2k healing is better then 800 damage, which is to say very nearly all of them. 60 spell damage over 8 pieces of armor is just weak, even if you are trying to spec into what is already a very weak raiding tree anyhow. If they really wanted to make EF the healing set and 10storms the elemental set, they should have made the vast superiority of EF for healing clear, instead of hiding it like +weapon skill, and clearly tagged 10storms with at least one, and maybe two more elemental bonuses, as well as clearing out the rest of the healing for more damage.

Edit:

Quote:Elem/Resto isn't a great build

ZOMG who are you to tell me my spec is weak. Elem/Resto is what I was before pushing Nef and would be if they fixed PvP. Healing way is pretty good, but most of the time another shaman will have it up for you, and purification gets weaker the better your gear gets. Aside from tide, 95% of your resto power is in the first 21 points, including the all powerful NS. Once you have those, if you don't feel compelled to get MT, you are free to spend the rest of your points in enhancement or elemental, whatever suits your off raid time better. Its a lot easier for rogues to make up lack of enhancing totems then it is for you to make up a lack of NS and to a lesser extent tide.

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