Shaman Totems vs Paladin Blessings

[MongoJerry]

A guildmate linked to this incredible comparison of how shaman and paladins buff their raid parties in raid encounters, written by Halipusi of the Refusion guild. It is honest and fair and needs to be linked far and wide, because many people who have never raided as a Horde player don't understand the issues with the shaman totem system. As more people understand these issues, they will also come to understand why Horde raiders are up in arms about the latest nerf to Windfury. I'm reprinting the post here in its entirety (with minor formating edits):


Is The Alliance really easier than The Horde?

While I have seen many topics about this, I think most of them don't explain the situation well enough, at least not to the people who don't already know.

You will see many raiders on these forums who don't know. You might want to think that people are just trolling, but big portion of them simply don't know. Some are Horde raiders who don't know what Paladins can do, and some are Alliance raiders who are completely off with their estimates of what Shamans can do. Not all people know, and even people who have played from day one and are in respectable guilds can be unaware. They raid, collect epix, and believe what they want to believe. They read some random things about the matter, see all the whines but don't understand. They know that players will whine about almost anything. Sometimes they have valid reasons, many times not, why would their whines be right this time?

Horde most definately has it harder than the Alliance. I will mostly address only buffs now, because I'm not writing a book.:)

What Horde should know about the Paladin buffing system:

Paladin buffs his raid by giving a blessing of choice to all people. Paladin targets class, and the all members of that class gets blessing for 15 minutes. Other Paladins do rest of the blessings, because a player can have one blessing from one Paladin. BOK = 10% all stats BOS = 30% less threat BOW = more mana than manaspring, BOM = 185 attack power. You can have these all at the same time. Only need 4 Paladins. Fifth Paladin for Blessing of light. Paladins can also judge an enemy, including raid mobs, the most famous is the judgement of wisdom which gives attackers mana back. Paladins also have auras, and using an aura doesn't interfere with blessings. That's it, Alliance is ready to go.

What Alliance should know about totems:

Shaman can buff his group of 4 plus himself, which makes 5, but many times the buffs the group needs don't help the Shaman. Elements are fire, earth air and water. Only one totem of each element can be placed at a time.

• Fire: Frost resistance totem. (also searing totem, pew pew, it's not a really a buff, but ok on paper, the range is just sad in raid encounters). Other random useless totems. <>
  
• Earth: Either Strength of earth for 77 str, or tremor totem. There is also stoneskin, and some other funny totems that don't get used in raids. Earthbind is here too. <>
  
• Air: Grace of air for 77 agi, windfury 20% chance to proc 1 extra attack with some extra attack power, nature resistance 60 (doesnt stack with hunters aspect), tranquil air 20% less threat. <>
  
• Water: Mana spring, healing spring, fire resistance, poison cleansing, disease cleansing. Oh, and manatide too, for those who specced it! It's like a tide of mana!!<>
  [st]Only one of each! Totems cost mana, combat time (global cooldown for each) and don't move and have limited range.
  
  Myth: 5 Shamans can buff 25 people.
  
  Well, it's not really 25 who gets buffs, read on. Let's look at a typical raid, my guild uses 5 Shamans, sometimes less, rarely more, it's not worth it to bring more. 5 Paladins fully buff their raid of 40. 5 Shamans can only buff their groups, which is 25, inlcuding the shamans. That's what people think, 40 vs 25. Sounds bad right?
  
  This is not the whole truth. It's actually much worse than that. These "25" people are never fully buffed, and it's not just because of some elements holding many useful totems that can't be used at the same time. Remember that only one of each can be down at a time. Sadly, Air holds most of the good stuff: Windfury, GOA TA, and also nature resist totem. You must choose only one.
  
  Problems with buffing power:
  
  1. Air totem. Horde DPS warriors can have windfury but they do not get any threat reduction. At the same time alliance warriors have 30% less threat, 10% more of ALL stats and blessing of might for more attackpower. DPS warriors, while nice dps, are very high on aggro even without windfury. Horde rogues get either GOA or WF, and again no threat reduction.
     
     Also, you cannot use poisons, sharpening stones or any other buffs (like the nice ones in Naxx) on the weapon same time with windfury, if you do you do not get windfury.
     <>
     
  2. Basic group makeup leads to lack of buffs on these "25" people. In every raid there will be groups who will have a Shaman in them, but the people inside groups would need different buffs.
     
     Shamans: They are buffing other people, and mostly don't benefit from the totems themselves much. You can give yourself manaspring, but none of the melee need that. Shaman does nothing with the buff from windfury totem example, because they buff their own weapon with different version. Most of the times only buffs shamans benefit from are mana spring and tranquil air, but many times don't have these. Shaman isn't always buffing a group of 5, he is buffing a group of 4 if he doesn't need the buffs.
     
     The guys with the imp: This warlock doesnt get Tranquil air because he is buffing melee usually, and has to take whatever the shaman gives to the tanks, in other words nothing or possibly mana spring.
     
     Now if you have read and understood points 1 and 2, the real amount of people who are getting the buffs that fit their class is around 20. Also, these 20 aren't getting all the buffs shamans have in theory, only some of them.
     
     20 partially buffed people.
     
     And this under optimal conditions. I'll try to explain in more detail a comparison what Horde gets versus Alliance.
     
     Alliance gets:
     Everyone gets 10% more stats (it scales), 30% less threat for everyone except for the tanks of course, blessing of might for melee, blessing of wisdom for casters. Judgement of wisdom if they feel like it. I almost forgot, they have auras too, especially the one with armor is nice.
     
     Horde gets:
     Rogues: WF or 77 agi, 77 str, some don't get any
     Warriors: WF or 77 agi, 77 str, some will be without
     Mages: No buffs
     Locks: No buffs
     Hunters: 77 agi, mana spring (sometimes hunters get none and mages or locks get buffs!)
     Healers: mana spring for almost everyone! Possibly Tranquil air, but it's not a problem that needed for healers honestly.
     Also, if we don't have enough Mages and Warlocks in the raid not getting buffs, some others from random classes won't get any because they don't fit into the groups.
     
     Do you notice that even Horde spellcasters don't get TA? It's not that it's bad thing to have 20% less aggro, it's that Horde can't spare any. While all Alliance players has 30% less aggro. Sometimes we can give mages and locks TA, but then healers can forget mana spring.
     
     This sounds worse. So is this the whole truth yet? No of course not, like I said optimal conditions.
     <>
     
  3. Group makeup in certain bosses. When I say certain, it actually happens all the time.
     Some bosses require or encourage different group setups and positions, and these kind of fights almost nobody gets what they want or need from the shaman. If it's an Alliance raid you can move people around and not lose anything. You do that in Horde raid and there is almost nothing left.<>
     [st]Myth: Horde has more powerful buffs
     
     So wait, in Shaman friendly encounters Horde has half of the raid without buffs, and the other half only partially buffed. Surely to balance this, Horde should have more powerful buffs? But Horde doesn't. Mana spring is weaker than Blessing of wisdom. TA is weaker than BOS. For meleegroups, WF+SOE, and GOA+SOE are weaker combos than BOK+BOS+BOM.
     
     Myth: Tremor totem owns against fear.
     
     It doesn't. It breaks fear in pulses, it doesn't prevent them. Fearward is better. But it's okay, it's not Paladin ability anyway.
     
     Myth: Grouding totem, the totem that absorbs spells must be awesome!
     
     Grounding totem doesn't work on anything major. In other words, it doesn't work usually on raid mobs. This awesome PvP totem does nothing for raids. Yes, the time when it worked in Huhuran must have been unintentional because it doesn't work on other boss abilities anywhere either, never has. Horde doesn't have any crazy tricks like bubble pulling, or shielding a caster so they can aoe without any danger.
     
     Some questions you might have about all this, with my answers:
     
     Q: Why didn't you talk about this Blessing, and that totem?
     
     Because either blessing of crap or totem of poo are not relevant to this. I'm trying to keep this (relatively) short.
     
     Q: Well if Shaman fail at buffing, how about other areas, Shaman must have clear advantages somewhere else, right?
     
     That would make sense, but it is not so. Many consider Paladin to be the superior raid healer. Shaman is supposed to be the burst healer, and Paladin the mana efficent one. With current basic raiding gear, the paladin also burst heals pretty well and cheap. Flash of light with right gear is no joke, and like the shamans LHW it is fast cast 1.5 sec heal. There is really no need or space for here to go in full detail about this. Paladin has superior and cheap multipurpose cleanse, Shaman can only cure poison and disease with higher manacost than cleanse, and also purge enemies which is very rare in raids. There is one boss where Shaman is better cleanser, this is Viscidus.
     
     I could try to think about some cool tricks shaman can try to pull with self res or totems, but then I should also include what paladins can do with 6 second stun with HOJ, shields, lay on hands. Again, Shamans have really nothing major over Paladins here, and Paladins have some great stuff. Shamans can't self res first and then start ressing other people anymore either.
     
     Q: Come on, BOK BOS BOM BOW aren't that good anyway, right?
     
     Blessing of kings is simply awesome. Better than the old blasted lands buff for tanks, but this buff is nice for everyclass, and they all get it. More int than AI for example, am I right? Blessing of salvation doesn't just make aggro management easier, it ables your raid to do much more dps. Horde can't l2p or outplay that, they just have to do less dps. If you have read above how horde raid works, you'll see that tranquil air is a joke. It is not just 20% vs 30%. Tranquil air just fails. BOM is fine, BOW is better than mana spring, and all of these move with alliance all the time.
     
     Q: Judgement of Wisdom, what's that?
     
     I guess I should mention what it does since It's mentioned couple of times. After Paladins judge a mob, players attacking it will gain some of their mana back. I can't back this up with numbers, and I have seen some figures of 59/70 mana per 5, depending on class and spells/attacks used, and it's quite a big deal but I can't tell how correct those numbers are. According to thottbot, it's 50% chance to gain 59 mana back when attacking.
     
     Paladin needs to get close to refresh this because it doesn't last very long, so obviously there are some encounters where it can't be used.
     
     Q: Are you being fair by using 5 Shamans in your example? Why not 8 or some other number Shamans?
     
     Yes I am. 5 is sadly better than 8, while those 3 extra shamans would be giving some more buffs to people who don't have any, they would be taking spots from more able classes. Besides, if you wanted to get all buffs from Shamans you'd need much more than 8:)
     
     Q: So you want easymode too or something?
     
     No, nobody should have easymode. I just want things to be fair. Shamans and Paladins should be different. Different but equal. I'd settle less than equal actually, but Horde needs buffs or Alliance nerfs, and I think buffing Horde would be easier and fair. It's not hard to buff PVE without it having impact on PVP.
     
     Q: Shamans had their review, didn't that help?
     
     In Horde vs Alliance raid balance, almost no change. If you asked Blizzard they will say that they lowered totem costs and increased duration and are monitoring the changes, but if you have read this wall of text so far you see that's not even close to fixing this imbalance. What is really scary is that it looks like "we are monitoring this" is just hot air.
     
     Q: But this is insane, surely Blizzard wouldn't let this be like this? They must be aware?
     
     We (or atleast me and most others) honestly don't know how aware they are. Atleast the ones responsible of our talent review didn't bother to fix our problems, at least not yet. It is entirely possible that their smartest guys are working on something else, like burning crusade or other projects, I don't know. It could be a horrible oversight, or intentional, but sounds kinda evil, would create more friction thought. Who knows? But when they "buffed" our totems last patch, it doesn't look good at all.
     
     Q: Wait, are you saying it's possible that Blizzard doesn't understand the problems?
     
     Sounds nuts, but it's possible. Few points you should consider:
     • Lot's of people work on this game, and while we don't know details, we can safely assume that people working on dungeons aren't necessearly doing balancing of classes. <>
       
     • Tranquil air. The way this was, and still is handled should make you think. This totem was introduced after release of BWL, when there was lot of discussion how alliance outclasses horde in raids, and especially how horde had nothing like BOS, they gave us TA. The beauty of TA is that by just looking at the stats and ignoring everything else, it SEEMS almost as good as BOS, but if look at how it can used in raids, and have paid attention, you now know that BOS is a raidwide passive aggro reduction of 30%, and tranquil air is extremely situnational and will leave your dps classses without buffs. TA is not adressing the problems it was supposed to. While I can't stress enough how bad TA is compared to BOS, I admit we use it in Vael, and Ouro. <>
       
     • Last patch. The changes didn't address our problems, and Blizzards response.
       When players said that the totem duration increase and mana reduction were a lackbuster, we were told
       "they would be keeping an eye out on how the changes work out". Can you imagine anyway they could be
       monitoring this?<>
       [st]Q:horde PVP, alliance PVE QQ more n00b shut ur mouth crybaby!
       
       That is a bad argument, and also a myth. Alliance, and the Paladin is very strong in PvP. So is Shaman. Also, even if for some wierd reason somebody thought palas arent good in pvp, it still has nothing to do with raid balance. Raid and pvp are unrelated, for some this is hard to understand, but it's the truth. Should they have made Paladins worse in PvP when they got greater blessings and thus even better in PVE? Of course not.
       
       Q: Why are you undermining Alliances accomplishments?
       
       I'm not. Some alliance guilds are doing well because they have good players. I don't think many chose easy mode by purpose, it doesn't say easymode anywhere in the faction description. This is not meant as an insult.
       
       Q: So if it's not working as intented, where is the outrage?
       
       It is spread out over time. When a new boss gets introduced, and if it's broken you can see million whinethreads, and Blizzard usually fixes it unless his name is Cthun or Ragnaros. Even those got fixed, but it took time. This faction imbalance is not something people see right away. Some people figured it out before the launch of the game. Some people figured it when they were introduced to raiding. I didn't know what alliance has in their arsenal before I was raiding bwl. Every day more and more people know, but it's not an outburst, it's not obvious unless you have extensive knowledge of the game.
       
       Conclusion
       • Alliance has better manaregen, offensive power, mobility and defensive power in raids. <>
         
       • Even under optimal conditions, around half of the Horde raid is unbuffed. Alliance has stronger buffs, and everyone has buffs. This means that the difference in buffing effectiveness is more than double! <>
         
       • In mobile encounters totems either lose effectiviness, or are useless. <>
         
       • In Bosses which require something else than standard group composition, generally less than 10 people get meaningful buffs, if the shaman bothers at all because it is frustrating to buff one person in a group with totems that still cost mana afterall. <>
         
       • Shamans, or Horde have no perks over paladins to make up for this. <>
         
       • This has been broken for more than a year now. Recently released 1.11 was shaman talent review. If that was not time for fix, is Blizzard ever going to do it? <>
         
       • Blizzard has not made honest stance on this of yet. Everytime we get sort of a reply regarding the issue, the real issues get dodged, and we get served with somesort response along the lines of "well you don't maybe have this, but you have this and that". The problem is, these generalizing answers always point to a Shaman perks that, honestly don't exist. Just an example, it's been like this for a year <a href="http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=8840551&tmp=1#post8840551" target="_blank">http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...p=1#post8840551</a>
         No offence to him, he is probably a CM, not developer, but this is what we get. <>
         
       • We have heard few vague noises of possible changes to Shamans in 1.12. I can't describe it better than that. We have not seen or heard anything about that since. There is no reason to even think this is probable. People were expecting things in 1.11 too. <>
         
       • This is getting old. Really old. Players are getting apathetic. Is Blizzard really oblivious to this all, or is this part of a strategy? We know Blizzard doesn't have a raid team, they need guilds to do the testing of new instances. Scary, isn't it? <>
         
       • Eyonix became "the enemy of the shamans" on US forums, because instead of giving Shamans more info about their conserns, he responded to people making personal insults on him, but what info was he supposed to give the Shamans if the devs have nothing to give to him?<>
         [st]Alliance is fed up of getting called easymode, and Horde doesn't enjoy all those extra consumables, and the knowledge their raid wouldn't be dead if they had had BOK or BOS, or had the raid had more DPS.
         
         What can we expect from new exciting and challenging raid encounters when even the gimpy Horde has to be able to do them? Naxx is already insane moneysink with pots, mats for parts and repairs, and Horde needs to pot more than ever just to have mana.
         
         It's not that it would really hard or impossible to fix these problems. There are lots things that could be done, ranging from changing the totem system to just tweaking it and adding some small stuff, either would work fine. Still nothing is happening... Maybe we will get revenge of Tranquil air, something that seems to fix stuff but does nothing, true essence of Truthiness.
         
         
         UPDATE time!
         
         Something I didn't mention is population imbalance and how this all promotes it. People are already more likely to go Alliance in the worlds most popular game of it's kind. So by having weaker faction at end game, it promotes population imbalance even further.
         
         Now, of course a fresh new player to WOW and mmorpgs isn't thinking about raiding, and we can't know if that player will even end up raiding but when the perception is there that by choosing Horde you are gimping yourself later on, why take the chance? So what I should do is shut up so nobody knows?;)Well, everyone knew already. If you are likely to even see this thread, you already knew about the issue, and whether you knew if it's true or not is beside the point. As long as the perception is there, people will keep talking about it, and it's not fine when "hi i'm newb shaman, any advice" threads get answered with "Get away, don't take Shaman or you'll regret it". Do people really need more reasons to not to choose Horde?
         
         Next, you seen this stuff going on? Perfect example of not understanding the problems. That thread is made after this one, and while is not only wrong, it's implying the wrong things. Nothing wrong with theorycraft, but it needs to be done right.
         
         Browsing through US forums, I have also found some wierd discussion how Horde has advantage on Grand Widow Faerlina. Some other odd bosses are mentioned too, like Maexxna. Both are incorrect. If you have read this thread, you might already understand why. I might explain in detail later if it becomes an issue. Gluth was also mentioned, but having no experience on him I'm not going to comment.

[Warlock]

Great post.

I'm as happy to 5-man with a Shaman as with a Paladin (a bit weaker party buffs, more damage, some nice utility) but their abilities don't scale to 40 man as well.

[Mirajj]

You know what I find the most amusing part of this whole "debate" to be?

So many people saying "pallies are the best, pallies are uber, pallies are awesome raid buffers and healers!" and yet...almost no one wants to PLAY one. There are very few pally players I know of who are happy about their end game role (and really, who can blame them) and wished for something more. But from what I've seen, there are tons of shaman, as they are or tend to be a very popular class.

[Artega]

You know what I find the most amusing part of this whole "debate" to be?

So many people saying "pallies are the best, pallies are uber, pallies are awesome raid buffers and healers!" and yet...almost no one wants to PLAY one. There are very few pally players I know of who are happy about their end game role (and really, who can blame them) and wished for something more. But from what I've seen, there are tons of shaman, as they are or tend to be a very popular class.

Likely because Shammies are easier and (I'd assume) more fun to play in PvP.

Regardless of spec (be it Retribution, Protection, or Holy), Paladins are always a support class in PvP; if they aren't buffing and healing, they're being subpar in some area. Retribution Paladins do much less damage than Warriors (except perhaps against Warriors, where their Holy damage can eat right through Plate), have no useful debuffs or snares, and really have no special abilities besides Judgements, Hammer of Just Stand There, and - gasp - heals.

In comparison, Shammies can spec Enhancement to go play Warrior (with the recent buffs to the Enhancement tree, Stormstrike builds are now very viable and I've seen Lv.50ish Shammies in my guild rip out 2000+ WF procs followed by a +20% Earth Shock due to the Stormstrike debuff), Elemental to be a Mage (we have a couple of Elemental Shammies in our guild, and they can do some obscene damage; Lightning Bolt becomes lethally effective with the casting time reduction talent and MP cost reduction talent), or Restoration to be a healer (we have no Restoration Shammies, but my Shammy on Mannoroth is specced for Restoration and I find it to be pretty fun.)

Both are very viable PvP classes, but I think Shammies are more popular because they're more fun (I've never played a Paladin, so I can't say from personal experience, however.)

[Monkey]

It's a nice analysis, Mongo, and it gives me the strange urge to roll a Horde raiding character. Heh. <_<

A social aspect you're unaware of--it can be like herding cats to get those buffs on people. Greater Blessings are 1000% better, but if someone dies out of sync with the raid, or if a pally wants to do the regular blessings, it quickly becomes very frustrating. It seems like a silly conflict--everyone should want to succeed, right? But it happens nonetheless; Miraji nailed it with:

So many people saying "pallies are the best, pallies are uber, pallies are awesome raid buffers and healers!" and yet...almost no one wants to PLAY one. There are very few pally players I know of who are happy about their end game role (and really, who can blame them) and wished for something more.

This is absolutely true. Paladins I raided with 'back in the day' eventually:
1. Rerolled as a warrior because they wanted to tank
2. Rerolled as a priest because they wanted to heal
3. Quit the game because they were unsatisfied with their endgame role.

I think only 2 of the 10 serious pallies we had in my old guild are still playing those characters.

[vor_lord]

There are very few pally players I know of who are happy about their end game role (and really, who can blame them) and wished for something more. But from what I've seen, there are tons of shaman, as they are or tend to be a very popular class.

Your points about enjoyment noted... but do you honestly have a shortage of paladins?

And that's hardly a fair tradeoff either: "Well yeah, paladins rule in raids compared to shamans, but playing them is like putting bamboo shoots under my fingernails!"

Shaman happiness with the raiding role is no better than it is with paladins.

[Kevin]

You know what I find the most amusing part of this whole "debate" to be?

So many people saying "pallies are the best, pallies are uber, pallies are awesome raid buffers and healers!" and yet...almost no one wants to PLAY one. There are very few pally players I know of who are happy about their end game role (and really, who can blame them) and wished for something more. But from what I've seen, there are tons of shaman, as they are or tend to be a very popular class.

Shaman are fluid. Paladins are not. That is what a lot of it boils down to. Shaman can do every job a paladin can do and can fill a caster roll paladins can't. While both classes get severely limited in raids, when not raiding shaman can still do other things.

Another factor is healing. Raid healing I actually think a paladin is more effective than a shaman. I personally like raid healing with a paladin better than a druid as well. However, the base healing power of a shaman is more effective than the base healing of a paladin. What I mean here is shaman get flash heal. The average healing of lesser healing wave is within 5 points of flash heal. Paladins flash of light is not effective without blessing of light up and/or without sacrificing a lot to get the healing power behind it leaving them with only the 2.5 second cast heal. This means a paladin that is in DPS gear does not have much in the way of effective healing at all. Shaman in DPS gear still have effective burst heals which still makes you feel you are doing something. Both classes trying to do raid DPS are generally much less effective than any other class trying to do raid DPS. But there are always exceptions. We've got Starkos on alliance side, and I've seen Shnuckums horde side both in the top 5 in damage out. The difference? In the gear they both wear to do that DPS, the shaman will be a more effective emergency healer than the paladin. You put the same skill behind the keyboard and the shaman will win out because of the way DPS delivery works. Not that a DPS paladin can't heal and not that they can't do it well.

The paladin on gearing though is much more like a druid. There is virtually no overlap in DPS gear and healing gear. Since a shaman to do DPS is not only doing DPS but also throwing elemental damage in the mix they still generally have some kind of damage and healing and int gear on. The other thing is that paladins can and do wear mail/leather/cloth in addition to plate the more you step down from the top flight of armor the more you feel like you aren't doing something quite right. It's like hunters wearing leather, sometimes that is clearly the best option but you really feel that it shouldn't be. That wears on you. It's actually easier for a shaman to get a multi role gear set that is all mail than it is for a paladin.

Shaman also fill the tanking roll that a tank that is limited by a mana pool generally end up filling. Emergency off tanking. A shaman with a shield in end game gear will break 5000 armor. This isn't that different than a warrior with a 2 hander on. Shaman have better burst aggro and aggro control. If they need to pick something up, even for just a few seconds to save more of the raid they can do it. I've seen shaman off tank destroyers that got loose in MC for 20 seconds without any real support until things got back under control. The paladin, unless they are holy/protection spec would like never get enough aggro to even get the thing to pay attention to them in that time. I say holy/prot becuase you need holy shock and imp righteous furor so that you get 90% more aggro from holy damage and can get that up holy shock, and judge righteousness on the mob as well along with the swings most other build simply can't generate that much aggro. The shaman may have some heal aggro (not reduced like the paladins) and can earth shock + rockbiter on it.

Finally I've touched on it. Shaman simply have much more control of the character. Yes windfury procs are much like seal of command procs, they are very random. However lightnight bolts, chain lightning, and shocks, and even something like stormstrike offer you so many other ways to control the DPS. The seal + Judge is slower than shocks and doesn't do nearly the damage anyway and that is pretty much the only control you have. The rest is sit and let auto-attack do it's job.

Another point is how things change if you change spec. A retribution paladin plays pretty much like a holy paladin (you just use different skills and a holy does less DPS). I haven't really played a full protection paladin, but I imagine that it will still play like a paladin. No other class in the game is that way. Shaman certainly aren't. An enhancement shaman does not play like an elemental shaman. A resto shaman does not play like the other specs. A paladin plays like a paladin pretty much no matter how you spec them.

So you throw that on top of the fact that at base levels without talents or gear support the shaman healing is better, the fact that shaman have more control over damage, the fact that in just about any gear set the shaman will feel they can do other jobs better, the fact that shaman can do more jobs than a paladin, the fact that your optimal gear set for the job you want to do is likely all made of the best type of armor you can wear, and the fact if you respec the shaman playstyle will change then it makes sense that people are going to enjoy playing them better. Oh and others covered the PvP side.


The rest of this post isn't really isn't related to Mirajj's post as I don't think he was arguing at all with the analysis, but I'm glad he brought that tangent up. I just want to comment on it in general framed a bit with my above comments.

Paladins do add more to a raid, by far. Paladins had the worst class review to date as some paladins simply came out of it nerfed, doing less damage, having less survivability and not healing any better. Most other classes really didn't have that happen. But paladins suffer from a fundamental class design flaw. The only thing they have control over in any real sense is healing. No other class suffers like this. Sure priests may still not do a lot of damage (though with the class review and certain spec choices priests that are primarily healers can still deal some very solid damage) but they can at least control that damage much better, though admittedly if they want any longevity they end up just wanding a lot which makes it behave like a paladin but they can at least choose to blow the mana pool to do damage. Paladins are always a support class, in every spec of the class and playstyle never changes. I don't see that for any other class, not even a priest. A priest can spec shadow and be a DPS leader, out in the front if they want. Paladins end up chained to someone else or just watching the game play itself while self healing and regening mana and surviving everything, which has appeal at times, but not when that is all you have going for you, even if you respec. They do distill down to very good raid healers and buffers.

Shaman suffer from getting reduced back to a support class in raids that can't do that job. Yes a resto shaman can, in a raid situation keep up with druids and priests but they still aren't better, it generally just means that the person behind the shaman is a great player and that possibly the priests and druids in the raid aren't doing everything they can. Shaman are the only healers that really don't have any talents that really increase longevity. They get 10% to healing and 5% mana reduction and 5% more mana. Paladins get a very nice longevity talent with illumination. Druids and priest both get 15% regen while casting along with at least 10% reduction in spell costs and at least 10% more healing. So again in the raid situations, paladins that go the route of the pigeon hole end up being better healers, this does not contradict what I said earlier about shaman having better base healing and better healing when they don't have the gear support. Shaman buffs as pointed out don't really help the raid that much either. So you have a class that is very fluid, is very good at going from healing to damage to off tanking, to ranged DPS, back to healing, but gets in a raid where most every class gets distilled down and what they get distilled to doesn't work all that well. The need for emergency burst healing isn't as high after things are learned and execution is better. They can't really dispell well (though the cleansing totems are more valuable in AQ20 and ZG than what a paladin can do, but the time frame of those instances not simply being overwhelmed by gear are very short lived) since so much of what needs to be dispelled in raids is magic and curses not poison and disease. The value of a fluid character is just not that high in most raid encounters. The value of a good healer, buffer, and dispeller is very high.

It's not a simple situation. Both classes are broken. Paladins are broken by really being so "the same" when you play them even though they are very powerful in raids (and PvP too). Shaman are broken by just not working right in the role they look to be designed to fill in raids and while they are still very powerful they just aren't powerful enough outside the pigeon hole roles to be more optimal than some other class in that spot and no other class can even do the poor job they end up doing in the roll they are supposed to fill.



And consider that a lot of the time horde are fully raid buffed in a 5 man. They have Mark, AI, and Fort and if they have a shaman along they get as much or more totem support than they will get in a raid. Alliance can't be fully raid buffed by just a 5 man group. I think that statement can help clarify the issue for people that don't always get it.

[MongoJerry]

Both are very viable PvP classes, but I think Shammies are more popular because they're more fun (I've never played a Paladin, so I can't say from personal experience, however.)

Both are dominating PvP classes. The reason why the shaman is the more popular PvP class is because shaman (specifically, elemental shaman, because enhancement and restoration shaman are terrible in PvP) get to rack up the fast kill shots, and for most players that's what brings the excitement. You get to see yourself high up on the kill boards. Paladins, on the other hand, do very well against most classes, but the fights usually take a long time. And in a group situation, you're not usually the one to get the kill shot, so you don't get to see the big kill numbers at the end of the game.

On the other hand, if the only statistic that matters to you is whether you win or lose, then the paladin is the way to go. A paladin who ignores kill ratios and instead focuses on healing, dispelling, shielding, and casting things like Blessing of Freedom on his or her partymates, and casting Hammer of Justice and/or Repent on his or her enemies can completely alter the dynamics of a fight with his her or presence. As an enemy, I can tell you that the presence of a paladin, or for God's sake *two* paladins, completely alters your spell selection and who your group targets to kill first. If you are the type of player who can appreciate the feeling of "controling the fight" and countering the attacks of your enemies not only against yourself but also your teammates, then the paladin is for you.

Not everybody can appreciate that. In fact, I would say that most people can't, which is why most people tend to made dps characters instead of healers. But other people's personalities have them lean toward a healer/defensive role. Well, it's not even that. It's more like a "come at me with all you got, because I can take it" role. If your personality fits with that mindset, then the paladin is for you.

[Mirajj]

Your points about enjoyment noted... but do you honestly have a shortage of paladins?

A couple of quick notes before bed. I work with a 'set' roster of 4 pallies. On any given raid night, one or two may not be there. If I can get 3-4 pallies on my raid, I consider myself lucky from a class balance perspective. The situation has eased some of late, as we've had some more folks come up the ranks, but there were raids I've gone on without a pally around at all. The Avarice ARP site lists 15 'active' pallies, in that they've raided at least once in the last three months. Of those, I look over the list and find that there are TWO that are regulars, that's it.

I know those two enjoy their role. I know of a new main, and a hunter with a pally alt who seem to enjoy the role of a pally.

4 of 15 actually ENJOY and want to play their pally. The rest tend to bring another alt, or just not raid if they can't not bring their pally.

As a raid leader, and not a RL of an "uberguild", I don't force people to raid on toons they don't want to.

Most often, my raids have 2 pallies, and those two are working their butts off doing the best they can, keeping 40 people buffed to the nines, and spot healing in between.

Not really a "shortage" I suppose, but certainly not an excess, either.

[vor_lord]

Not really a "shortage" I suppose, but certainly not an excess, either.

Sounds like a shortage to me actually. Funnily enough on Terenas we have the most trouble getting rogues.

[Trien]

Having neither an endgame paladin nor a shaman, I cannot speak personally about this, but just from considering the way the paladin and shaman abilities work, I pretty much agree with the analysis. In a raid situation, paladins bring a lot more to the table, buffs and all. It seems like there are a select few encounters where certain shaman totems give the advantage, but for everything else paladins give greater advantage.

With regards to the comments on enjoyment and paladin shortages... almost every single paladin I know is a player's first character; nobody ever creates a paladin as their alt. And almost every single one of those, if they've had the time and inclination to make one, has a second character which gets played more than the paladin (if the paladin gets played at all). There once was a time where we seemed to have nothing but paladins, but no longer. And while there never seems to be a shortage of paladins, in raids it seems like the paladin roster has been the most volatile, having seen the most changes in names over time. Perhaps someone else can speak to whether there is a similar situation with shamans; the few that I know seem to prefer playing another class over the shaman as well.

[Mavfin]

Having neither an endgame paladin nor a shaman, I cannot speak personally about this, but just from considering the way the paladin and shaman abilities work, I pretty much agree with the analysis. In a raid situation, paladins bring a lot more to the table, buffs and all. It seems like there are a select few encounters where certain shaman totems give the advantage, but for everything else paladins give greater advantage.

With regards to the comments on enjoyment and paladin shortages... almost every single paladin I know is a player's first character; nobody ever creates a paladin as their alt. And almost every single one of those, if they've had the time and inclination to make one, has a second character which gets played more than the paladin (if the paladin gets played at all). There once was a time where we seemed to have nothing but paladins, but no longer. And while there never seems to be a shortage of paladins, in raids it seems like the paladin roster has been the most volatile, having seen the most changes in names over time. Perhaps someone else can speak to whether there is a similar situation with shamans; the few that I know seem to prefer playing another class over the shaman as well.

The buff analysis is spot-on. I can tell you that from playing tank for Alliance, and shaman for Horde in 40-mans. My shaman in MC will have 4 buffs: AB, PoF, GoW, DivSpi, and then whatever totems I have up, which may or may not do anything for me, depending on who I'm in group with. My warrior in MC or BWL or AQ will have those 4 buffs, and BoMight, BoKings, BoLight, BoSanctuary sometimes, too. (Salvation isn't something I use much, as a dedicated prot tank)

GG's analysis of 'fun' and shaman flexibility is pretty well right on, too. If you think 'raid guild' mentality, then you might as well not even take my shaman to raids. I basically play flex-shaman in raids. I heal when needed, I give whatever totems my group can use to their advantage, and do damage as much as I can afford the mana. I'm sure that either a healer or a dedicated DPS could put up more of either healing or damage on the numbers side. Yes, the flexibility of a shaman is a lot of fun to me. I feel that I can do what's *needed* at any given moment in the raid. I do change into more +heal gear when I *know* I'll need to heal more for a time period, but otherwise, I'm in my damage/heal gear, lots of int and stam and m/5. (my build is elemental/enhancement 30/21, with all the elemental damage stuff, the enhancement lets me WF with the Earthshaker nobody wanted). But, can I buff the raid like a pally? Not even close. Is my shaman more fun to play? Can't answer that, my highest pally is lvl 14. I know my shaman *is* fun to play, but is limited in raids somewhat. S

he really shines in 5-mans, as the totems can really help, and *will* help the whole group, and her flexibility helps, too. Got a dedicated healer in the group? Woohoo, time to start nuking, just keep an eye out for secondary heal needs. No dedicated healer? Ok, I can help another shammy heal, and still smack stuff with my big hammer, and toss in a nuke, depending on how much healing is needed. Need an offtank? Sure, let me put on my shield. With healing support, I can offtank any but the heaviest hitters for a bit. And yes, I *can* get aggro on them. Earthshock and rockbiter ftw.

So, yeah, the issue exists. GG and Mongo both have valid points.

[Treesh]

Perhaps someone else can speak to whether there is a similar situation with shamans; the few that I know seem to prefer playing another class over the shaman as well.

I have a level 60 dwarf priest, a level 60 night elf rogue and a level 60 tauren shaman. The shaman was my first character created (though not my first to 60 due to some unfortunate circumstances) and whenever I was pressed to name a main, Mogo was it. She still is. I absolutely love playing my shaman. Absolutely love it. What I love most about the shaman is the flexibility. If there's a role that needs to be done during a fight, I can do it. I've offtanked, main-tanked, nuked from a distance, beat the crap out of things melee, main healed, solo healed, and backup healed and in most cases, all in the same gear now. Yes, I am not as effective in any one role as another class, but I can flow between the needed roles all in the same fight without a lot of difficulty. Now, if I am main-tanking throughout the instance or solo healing an instance, I generally do have slightly different gear on than my normal gear. I absolutely love the fact that during a fight, there is always something I can do to help that is mostly effective. As a priest, I can heal or do some damage and, depending on mob types, do some CC, but I can't really off-tank for any length of time and forget about main tanking. :) With my rogue, she does damage, has limited CC and, oddly enough, can off-tank for a short time with or without evasion, but if the healer goes down or is out of mana, I can't do much to help out. Now, the shaman is short on CC a bit, but I can do so much else to help out a 5 or 10 man group, that I'm certainly not going to complain.:D Some of the flexibility helps out in the 40 man (and it helps more in the 20 mans), but usually that's only when something goes wrong. I have off-tanked in MC to protect my clothies and casting druids when a critter has gotten loose from the warriors/feral druids, but usually I'm just DPS (as best I can) and healbot. Thankfully, with her spec and gear, I can do both and usually not run out of mana and not just end up standing there doing nothing but wand if I'm out of mana like I have to do with my priest.

Edit: The druid has some flexibility as well, but if you are shifted to tank, you can't heal. If you're shifted as cat to do damage, you can't heal. You have to spend mana to get into the different forms and then you are limited in what you can do in those forms, which is balanced. Imagine a bear tank that can heal as well as an unshifted druid. Ain't gonna happen and it shouldn't. :) So, while I do have fun with the druid, it's not as fluid as a shaman is to me. They can do better in their roles than the shaman can, but they give up a little bit of fluidity.

[ZugzwangZeitgeist]

he really shines in 5-mans, as the totems can really help, and *will* help the whole group, and her flexibility helps, too. Got a dedicated healer in the group? Woohoo, time to start nuking, just keep an eye out for secondary heal needs. No dedicated healer? Ok, I can help another shammy heal, and still smack stuff with my big hammer, and toss in a nuke, depending on how much healing is needed. Need an offtank? Sure, let me put on my shield. With healing support, I can offtank any but the heaviest hitters for a bit. And yes, I *can* get aggro on them. Earthshock and rockbiter ftw.

Sometimes I wonder if the central game mechanical problem with World of Warcraft is that it has become a game focussed around raids and occasionally PvP while featuring classes designed exclusively for small groups. The shaman totem is a perfect example of a game mechanic that works fine in 2-10 man groups and then gets completely left in the dust when you inflate everything to raid scale. Even things like the shocks and shaman tanking abilities go from a bad joke to an interesting possibility in small groups. The shaman and rogue seem to just be classes whose fundamental design rewards small group play, so when the game focuses more and more on raid situations these classes just shrink.

It almost makes you wonder what posessed the live team to focus so completely on large-scale raiding in the first place when it was a barely explored niche upon release. In almost every respect, switching to raiding has done nothing but damage their careful game balance.

[Mavfin]

Sometimes I wonder if the central game mechanical problem with World of Warcraft is that it has become a game focussed around raids and occasionally PvP while featuring classes designed exclusively for small groups. The shaman totem is a perfect example of a game mechanic that works fine in 2-10 man groups and then gets completely left in the dust when you inflate everything to raid scale. Even things like the shocks and shaman tanking abilities go from a bad joke to an interesting possibility in small groups. The shaman and rogue seem to just be classes whose fundamental design rewards small group play, so when the game focuses more and more on raid situations these classes just shrink.

It almost makes you wonder what posessed the live team to focus so completely on large-scale raiding in the first place when it was a barely explored niche upon release. In almost every respect, switching to raiding has done nothing but damage their careful game balance.

That's an interesting question. Kinda fits if you think about the fact that I raid with my shammy because that's the 60 I have on that server, and I built her the way she is because she was a lot of fun to play up to 60 and still is. I didn't build her for raiding. I have a built-to-raid toon already, an MT-class warrior, so the shaman is something different for me. That *is* one of the nice things about WoW talent/char builds, in that in most classes you can build 2 of the same class and not have them play the same. Pallies, from what GG said, do, but they're the exception rather than the rule.

[Cryptic]

The problem is simple: The developers of World of Warcraft have gotten lazy and arrogant, because there is no competition. They're under pressure from debt-laden Vivendi to throw those numbers up on the board, over-perform, rake in the $, full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes. So Blizzard, with no MMO experience, is left to wonder, what is the best way to make money in the MMO business?

The first step is to build a huge audience. They've done that, with their wonderful 1-59 game, Warcraft brand, past record, and uniquely polished gameplay. 1-59 WoW is, IMHO, one of the top 5 games I've ever played (and I've been a heavy gamer since 1975, a videogamer since 1978).

Then, when you have people so roped into the game that they don't want to give up their 500-3000 hours invested, at any price, you change the rules.

Slow down the content. Narrow the available content to a fixed, predictable ascension (the infamous "tiers"). Destroy the small, fun-oriented guilds by making the content require 40 people. Why? Because fun-seekers quickly realize that the game is no longer fun. You can't make them want to play anymore, so you have to addict them. Force people to run the content dozens of times to get what they want. All of this requires a huge, juicy carrot, which carries the name "Epic Gear."

Well naturally, the 10-20% hardcore fanbase that came over from EQ is going to drool over this until their keyboards short out. Everyone else has to be coerced. Some will relent and join the raiding grind. Others will insist on solo play; for them you give them the opportunity of very sparse, very distant, very mediocre epics (the reputation grinds). For everyone else, you offer a seemingly viable alternative: PvP.

PvP is good, because like raiding, it forces the players to keep running the same content many times to get what they want. Only this time, it's not dozens of runs required; it's hundreds. This keeps the people who don't want to raid roped in for one. The carrots get bigger and bigger ... the fattest, most succulent ones in fact, are just about as good as raid tier 2.

Unfortunately, cheaters ruin everything. The only way to get to rank 14 is to sacrifice your health, job and sanity (or education, if you're lucky and young), and play 24/7. Or, hire a company to do it for you. Or, have many people ("cheaters") break the terms of service and play your account. However you do it, the only deadset iron requirement is: 24/7.

Needless to say, 99.99% of the game population cannot do this. Count the number of past and future rank 14s in the world, and divide by 6.5 million. That's how many people in the world get raid-equivalent gear through not raiding. For everyone else, it's an unattainable mirage, forever distant, forever so very close. You can keep crawling across the desert until you die, or you can go back where you left the last oasis behind.

That last oasis has the name, Raid or Die.

Why raiding? The developers and CMs have already told you. Content takes a long time to build, and a short time to burn through. For Blizzard, it's even worse. They have a ridiculously long development cycle (remember waiting for Lord of Destruction?), and a rabid fanbase, because their games are so good. So not only does it take even longer to build things, the players eat up what they're served even more quickly than usual. So the only solution is to build content that will withstand many, many uses. To make it palatable, make it the only game in town for those 99.99% that can't hit rank 14.

And that's how you squeeze the most money possible out of an MMO. Maximum time, minimum content. Raid. Or. Die.

Of course, doing so requires your CMs to lie quite frequently; it requires you to make yourself a liar, turning your back on the "hardcore players' epics swords won't move mountains, they'll just look cool and burst into flames" promises you made a few years ago. So very long ago, when people believed in you, because back then, you were telling the truth.

I lay all of this at the feet of one Jeff Kaplan, the master of the Raid or Die philosophy. Blizzard is no longer Blizzard; it's a corporation filled with money-hungry sellouts. All of the people with integrity are gone. (Hellgate London, where are you?) The only people left are the ones willing to lie and sell their souls, in the name of the almighty $.

Now as you may have guessed, I used to be a Blizzard fanboy. Ever since Orcs Vs. Humans, I've played every one of their games to death, and had a blast. I still play them. I've advocated them on websites, in person, I've guided people away from the EA software racks and toward Warcraft III, or the Starcraft battle chest, or Diablo II.

No more. I'm sick of being lied to, and disgusted with what this company has become. It's not that I can't raid; I have a great guild that always leaves that gate open for me, and is willing and eager to attune me for anything I want at the drop of a hat. Even though they're all strangers (the small friend guilds are all consumed, due to the 40-person requirement), they've been very good to me.

But it's not that I can't raid. It's that I simply do not want to. The game is over for me now. And so, I've not only cancelled, but I warn everyone I can about what the game is from 1-59, and what it becomes at 60. Some of my still-addicted friends are pained by this; they tell me $40 and the expansion will combine to become the ultimate panacea, fixing everything. I tell them it's not worth it. Do you honestly believe that this company, this husk of Blizzard, is going to give you equivalent gear, equal rewards for equal effort, for every playstyle? They're not. They're going to coerce you into buying a new product, and then 10 levels later, it's going to be back to Raid or Die.

They don't know what else to do. They've run the numbers many times. Low development cost, high player use is the way to go.

They have the luxury now of a virtual monopoly. They have, flat-out, the best game out there. Not only because 1-59 is a fantastic game, but also because there is no true competition.

The competition is coming, of course. Vanguard, although it looks to me like a stale copy of Everquest 2, is going to turn many raiders' heads. Especially now that Blizzard is nerfing the Horde, gradually shifting everyone over to the dominant faction. When there is only one true faction, there is no need for PvP. There's no one to fight against. You raid, or you pay and sit around Orgrimmar, remembering the good days, too reluctant to throw away 2500 hours and admit that you were lied to. Those who still want PvP, who want to face intelligent opponents instead of AI scripts, will go over to Age of Conan, and then Warhammer Age of Reckoning in 2007. WoW will slowly suffer the death of a thousand cuts. No game can dethrone it. But every better game that's going to come out is going to nibble away at it, until millions leave, and WoW becomes an Asia-only game like Lineage 2.

I know the fanbois and the hardcore raiders are going to jump all over this, but I no longer care. They've raised their flag, and I've raised mine. I'm not budging. Something better will be along soon, and subscribers will be taken away. Those who choose to stay with WoW should welcome the competition, because only when the numbers are slipping, when Vivendi is demanding answers, only then are the Blizz people going to listen to and respect their remaining customers. We all stand to play better, more interesting games in the next few years, when WoW begins its long deserved decline into the mediocre numbers of EQ and DAOC.

That's all. Apologies for typos, I only went through this once with no edits. And yes, I do feel much better now. Good luck to you all, in whichever virtual worlds you choose to play.

[TheWesson]

[...]
But it's not that I can't raid. It's that I simply do not want to. The game is over for me now. And so, I've not only cancelled, but I warn everyone I can about what the game is from 1-59, and what it becomes at 60. Some of my still-addicted friends are pained by this; they tell me $40 and the expansion will combine to become the ultimate panacea, fixing everything. I tell them it's not worth it. Do you honestly believe that this company, this husk of Blizzard, is going to give you equivalent gear, equal rewards for equal effort, for every playstyle? They're not. They're going to coerce you into buying a new product, and then 10 levels later, it's going to be back to Raid or Die.

They don't know what else to do. They've run the numbers many times. Low development cost, high player use is the way to go.
[...]

The odd thing is that they have tremendous economies of scale for development. If they *know* that you have 6 million customers for whatever they throw in WoW, they can afford to put in a lot of time and talent. Add ten developers at ten thousand a month apiece (a very good salary) and that's $100,000/mo -- 2% of their gross revenue from the game. And that content will be around for as long as WoW is around...

With that kind of resources available, they could afford to develop very radical alternatives. Or even slightly radical alternatives, like difficult randomized 5-man dungeons. "Can't be done" -- well yes it can, with good minds at work.

But they're very conservative, and the safe thing to do is to have tiny little increments in power from raiding.

[Drasca]

The problem is simple: The developers of World of Warcraft have gotten lazy and arrogant, because there is no competition.

Thanks Cryptic. Said what I have not, what others who've left or have considered leaving have not. That was a good post.

[swirly]

The question that reading about shaman raid weaknesses brings to mind is...how much of a difference would allowing totems to work for the whole raid be? To me it seems that doing that would go a long way into quieting people. It still wouldn't put shaman at the same level as paladins when it comes to raid buffing, but it would make them stronger and more versatile than they are now. Raid leaders wouldn't have to make sure they were in the right party and such. Instead would have them assigned totem/location duty.

Since the totems don't move and raids can sometimes be spread out (from what I've heard not being a raider myself) they still wouldn't be near as strong as the paladin buffs, but would they be closer to passing a good enough rating? Horde would still be hard mode, but with adjusted play to take advantage of the totems it might be less hard than it currently is. In my mind it fits the same, but different philosophy of paladins/shamans as well...requiring different play styles by the raid.

I really don't understand why such a change hasn't been made. In the past they might have said that it broke 10 man content. The only 10 man content now is BRS though so its less of an issue (not that I actually think it was in the past). I doubt that shaman totems being able to buff the whole raid would really be much different than how things are for paladins now in 10 mans. So I just don't see what raid totems would break and it seems like they would be a good step toward making shamans feel more useful in raids.

Is there any reason not to allow raid totems? How much do you raiders think it would actually effect things? Would it be enough to make you feel more useful even if not at the same level as paladins?

[Rinnhart]

Question: Can you stack effects from the same "element" with multiple shaman? Can you get Windfury and Tranquil Air, and Grace of Air with two shamans in a group?

If yes: there's your answer as to why there aren't raid totems. The effects of individual totems outclasses the effects of blessings.

If no: yeah, they should probably get on that.

The changes to Windfury totem lead me to believe raid totems will be added, soonish.





I quit with a 60 paladin, 60 rogue, 60 mage alliance side and a 60 priest and 60 warlock horde side. The paladin was my raider, the others were everything else. The class can raid, but that's it. It's defensive in a game that's favors the offensive.

It's a simple, styleless class that just isn't fun to play. And it shows. There is a definate shortage of active paladins. Those who are left are either extremely hardcore, ignorant, or have a ton of alts.