I am out of here

[Zarathustra]

For what it's worth, the new PvP structure seems to ENABLE casual play more than anything. It's not a competitive ladder, but an accumulation of points. So if you're not hardcore about it, you'll still have a shot at the better gear. It'll just take longer.

[Kingpin]

Expansion is focused on smaller parties (limit raids to max 25), and causal players. I belive many changes in the game with expansion with suit both hardcore and causual players. I do agree many thing's in the game take a lot of time to reach, but I accept that since it's afterall a mmo that needs to keep players interested to keep play it.

Even for causual players you can get pretty ok eq with just grind gold, buy from AH. You can't ofcourse compare a causual player's gear with a hardcore players gear. A hardcore player have spend alot of his free time to obtain them. If a causual player could obtain similar gear, why would anyone care to spend the time required for it?:)

[Meshuggah]

I agree with so many things in your post, however I do enjoy raiding. We're farming MC atm, and just had our first Razergore kill ever (I wasn't there..). MC is boring, but BWL seems a bit more fun. However the 20-man instances Zul'Gurub and AQ20 are really nice, eventhough they are becoming a bit too easy. Looking forward to BC, because of all the new 5-10-25 man instances.

I do enjoy 5-man instances the most. That's where the game shines IMO. I also enjoyed doing the Dungeon Set 2 quest line with my warrior alt. (only valthalak left to do, then I have the complete heroism set).

5-man instances are where you really could try to bring back some of the old diablo feel by setting up restrictions for what you're allowed to wear, and what spells you're allowed to use. Really... just like the limitless amount of variants thought up by the old variant community, there are limitless ways you could gimp your 5-man group to make it more interesting. The only reward being beating something difficult (and a handful of Large Brilliant Shards:) By gimping your group, you might actually need to play your class the best you can, and that's one thing I constantly see people failing to do.
Recently, I've have tried a few things that I really enjoyed doing. Clearing the first groups in BRS with a Warrior and a Rogue (both in Dungeon Set 2 gear), stopping at "the first LBRS pull" with 4 orcs and 2 dogs. Really challenging.. Then we added a mage, and started clearing LBRS... Tons of fun..



One problem I constantly run into tho, is that most people wouldn't waste their time to do something challenging without possible purple rewards, or some reputation gain, or whatever. This is where Baron45 shines a bit, but even now, people aren't too interested in doing something challenging while getting AD rep.

People are just too focused on the next epic, and they're going through mindnumbing Silithus grinds to get that epic dagger ASAP, and when they finally have it, they start the next mindnumbing repgrind... In between they sign up for some mindnumbing MC-farming... I have done my fair share of it... My warrior spent the last few levels up to 60 in burning steppes farming mats for my Lionheart Helm, and at lvl60 I've spent a few hours there to farm mats for Titanic Leggings. I draw the line at Arathi Basin and WSG.. No way I'm getting exalted there, just to have the cloak and the shoulders.. no way..

So.. While I agree with you on most points, Jarulf, I also think that's there's a lot of room to make the game fun to play. Just... think Diablo...

[Descended]

Even for causual players you can get pretty ok eq with just grind gold, buy from AH. You can't ofcourse compare a causual player's gear with a hardcore players gear. A hardcore player have spend alot of his free time to obtain them. If a causual player could obtain similar gear, why would anyone care to spend the time required for it?:)

I'd be happy with a system that let a skilled casual player achieve raid level gear with approximately three to five times the time a skilled raider in a good guild would take to get similar equipment. I think being able and willing to work well with other players should be reward by quicker advancement. I'm quite willing to play hard and meet difficult challenges on my own terms, without having to depend on other players' availability and interest, as long as I have the same equipment ceiling, even if I must spend hundreds of hours more than a raider. I would enjoy this -- heck, I enjoyed the 30 hours or so it took me to farm Crusader with my rogue more than the average instance I've participated in.

If you were a raider, and you knew your equipment was about equal to mine, and that I had got mine mostly through five man instances, long quest lines, crafting, etc, but it had taken about 1000 hours of level 60 play to get mine and about 250 hours of level 60 play to get yours, would you feel that situation was unfair?

BTW, it would be more accurate to not link hardcore with raider. I play hardcore hours, and I play with hardcore skill, I just prefer not to raidd due to the aggravations.

[oldmandennis]

Hey if you are not having fun, go. Before you do, total up your /played over all characters, and devide by the total amount spent (initial box price + x months at 15$ a month). I'd be suprised if you didn't get an excellent value for your money.

Given a "traditional" MMORPG, I think your gripes are inevitable. I'm pretty sure outdoor zones take approxamatly as long as raid zones to develop. So if they skipped the raid zones, there could be 6 more outdoor zones. The thing is, most people can bang out an outdoor zone in 2-3 sittings. The only way to stop this without increasing development time is to make it more grindy. So you have tops 1 month content available. And then... D2 style grind for RWD epics? If that's what you wanted, I guess you are going to just have to wait for D3. I certainly prefer this. I liked D2, but not nearly as much as I like WoW.

I'll agree that tradeskills are lackluster. But your particular issues make very little sense, so much so that I wonder if you have really tried it. I've got several 300 trade skillers covering almost all skills (including almost 2 tailors), so I know a bit about what goes into it.

First off, it's not terribly difficult to get to 300 without using a lot of exotic reagents. If that's your goal, scan thottbot, look for items that are cheap to make like runecloth robe or boots. Those recepies don't have to be found, they can be bought easily at the AH.

Aside from the MC and ZG crafting stuff (which you pretty much need to do those instances to get the rep for the recepies anyways), the items required for crafting are generally not instance drops, and definatly not raid instance drops. Look for example at the belt of the archmage (which is pretty comparable to Arcanist). It takes a month and a halfs worth of mooncloth, but the rest of the stuff is very grindable in that time. No instance runs necessary.

[Jarulf]

I'd be happy with a system that let a skilled casual player achieve raid level gear with approximately three to five times the time a skilled raider in a good guild would take to get similar equipment.

That would never work out. A casual player would never, ever end up with that much time to start with. Or he would not be a casual player. (Give or take whatever you call and how you define a "casual" player).

[Jarulf]

Hey if you are not having fun, go. Before you do, total up your /played over all characters, and devide by the total amount spent (initial box price + x months at 15$ a month). I'd be suprised if you didn't get an excellent value for your money.

Apart from time/money not nessecarilly reflecting value/money (or fun or anything else) what makes you think that would actually turn up as good compared to most other computer games I have played? I can immediately tell you that compare to for example any of the Diablo games the value (if we accept your definition above) sucks. As will it do with a whole lot of other games I play. Considering I have payed the equivalency of 10-15 ordinary (non subscription) games (yes I tend to buy both new and barget bin games, so I took an evrage value), I would say it will be VERY far from the value I tend to get from most games.

That said, I will agree that I have had a lot of fun for the game and don't hesitate either buying, playing or paying for it. I have not at all complained about not having had fun (on the contrary, see the subcomment in the thread of "turn bad and booring"). I simply states that, for me at least, once you have played it for a while, like hiting 60, for me it turned bad for several reasons which I pointed out. THAT is what I consider sad.

I'll agree that tradeskills are lackluster. But your particular issues make very little sense, so much so that I wonder if you have really tried it. I've got several 300 trade skillers covering almost all skills (including almost 2 tailors), so I know a bit about what goes into it.

First off, it's not terribly difficult to get to 300 without using a lot of exotic reagents. If that's your goal, scan thottbot, look for items that are cheap to make like runecloth robe or boots. Those recepies don't have to be found, they can be bought easily at the AH.

I specifically mentioned crafted ones. I have got all collectable ones as well as cooking/first aid to 300. My problem was with the crafteble ones (including tailoring which I have at 300 and enchanting. I didn't say it is impossible and obviously one level through the "cheap" ones, still the ammount of, for example runecloth, is far more than you ever get close to collect thorugh normal game play. I have spent tons of money buing ingredients on the AH (as well as selling stuff as well). However, what on earth is the point of having pointless, repeated crafting of 40 runcloth boots (or whatever exmple you want to take) to get to level X except to have people go booring having to spend time on grinding just for the sake of it? Is it fun? Usefull? Good? no, it is a failed system. You can just as well have the game ocunt the number of runecloth that falls and after having collected a gazzilion of them, you can now use the actual somewhat minimal usefull recipies that you can NOT buy at NPC. With potion making, you can at least use what you craft. Having a crafting system that relies on people pumping out the less time consuming item and nothing usefull is just a time grind like everything else that really gives no reward, which is what I complain about, there is to little of a reward for the time you invest after you reach level 50-60.

Aside from the MC and ZG crafting stuff (which you pretty much need to do those instances to get the rep for the recepies anyways), the items required for crafting are generally not instance drops, and definatly not raid instance drops. Look for example at the belt of the archmage (which is pretty comparable to Arcanist). It takes a month and a halfs worth of mooncloth, but the rest of the stuff is very grindable in that time. No instance runs necessary.

No, instead, you have to, as I specifically mentioned as an example, kill Satyrs that are far lower than your level and otherwise gives NO benefit like crazy to get the mooncloth (in addition to grind for the other stuff). I have done that. I typically got boored and had cleared the camps once or twice often without getting a single felcloth. I think I have totalled about 5 mooncloth in the game and that took an awefull lot of time. I made 2 mooncloth bags (which I think costed 2 mooncloth back then) since I dind't have any recipie for a mooncloth item worth upgrading too or that required other items of which I had non or would have cost considerable more gold than I made in several occations of playing.

As I said, I have managed to collect a total of about 5 or 6 moonclot in my whole game play time. 16 bolts of runecloth (that is what, 80 runecloth drops?) is quite a lot of time and I have spent most runcloth I have bought (since I got far to little from drops) to level tailoring to start with as well as first aid (I skip those quests requiring it). The essence? Gee, I have perhaps between 2 and 4 of each type in the bank, total. The shards? Sure, I have som, no idea how many of that type, I picked up enchanting late though, but most everything of what I deenchanted, I used to level enchanting and after some level 240 or 250, it takes for ever and I leveled it about once every wekk or so. Of course, disenchanting means I don't get money form selling items to buy runcloth or other ingredients to level my tradeskills.

Oh well. Sure, I could stop doing quests, instances and exploring the game for the next 3 month and spend all that time griding for the ingredients for that recipie (I think that would be at least the time I would need to get them, if not more). That would be exclusively griding for them I would say not doing much else. WOuld that be fun? Would the item I get be a good justification for the time spent? Hell no. The thing is that during that time, I would be pretty sure to not have much chance to get anything else in the process. DOing instances or questing or whatever (of the appropriate type and the fun part of the game) you know that you have a lot of possibilities to get pretty much whatever random else which is what is fun, to me. To to invest a specific ammount of time for a pre known specific item. That is boring and why I don't like the game any more. So yes, the fun factor droped to much and that is why I indeed leave:)

[Yakisoba]

Definitely time for a break. WoW is a game with a community built in. If that combination doesn't capture you anymore, take a break. That's how you know what's important. YMMV.

[oldmandennis]

still the ammount of, for example runecloth, is far more than you ever get close to collect thorugh normal game play.

I have a tailor at 300 and one at 270. I have never bought runecloth. I don't grind much, and never for runecloth. I have a crapton in the bank, I've broken my packrat urges and started selling it. Now my mains are healers, so I don't use a lot of bandages. But I also have 4-5 characters at 300 first aid.

No, instead, you have to, as I specifically mentioned as an example, kill Satyrs that are far lower than your level and otherwise gives NO benefit like crazy to get the mooncloth (in addition to grind for the other stuff).

The typical grind is the Satyrs in Felwood. They drops decent amounts of cash, as well as a lot of runecloth, so its not NO benefit. And if you are looking for more of a challenge, many classes can solo the packs in DM east. Or you can go to south winterspring.

Ghost mushrooms are easy to farm in the hinterlands or mauradon. A few hundred elementals in Un'goro will get you enough essence of fire, but that one is probably better to purchase because supply >> demand, because a ton drops in MC. The water and LBS are a bit tougher, but this is an epic item, you can't expect it to be easy.

But yeah, the fact that you are wrong about this and a couple of other tailored items doesn't mean that the process of leveling tradeskills is lame, or that you should stay in the game if you aren't having fun.

[Monkey]

That would never work out. A casual player would never, ever end up with that much time to start with. Or he would not be a casual player. (Give or take whatever you call and how you define a "casual" player).

There are really a couple of kinds of 'time' here--one is the 'playtime' and one is the amount of 'calendar time'. It seems reasonable for casual players to have some mechanism to upgrade gear at a rate equal to a multiple of the calendar time required for a hardcore players to upgrade gear. Sure, the hardcore player is spending much more playtime to upgrade faster, but the gear gap doesn't spiral out of control.

One method could be 'lockout' questlines where each step requires 3-6 days of calendar time after the completion of the previous step. With sufficiently complex, interesting, and non-grindy quest content, each step in the chain could be like an 'episode' of WoW. That's a win for casual players who might only want a few hours of playtime per week. This effectively becomes a rested system for level-capped characters by allowing them to gain something by not playing.

A system like this would also be a big win for Blizzard because those casual players will pay the same $15/month as hardcore players, but require much less content.

[Concillian]

I kind of agree with this analysis. After some thought along these lines, it seems almost like there is too much gear with high droprates.

Diablo II was fun if you could find a group of friends and just go out and work together. Maybe under constraints (class balance, skill balance, /players, etc...) maybe not. You would (rather quickly) get to a point where a chance of getting decent gear from doing something like a meph run or baal run was something like a 1 in 100 to 1 in 1000 chance... low enough that you could pretty much assume you weren't going to get anything and you could just focus on the enjoyment.

WoW drop rates are high enough that the opposite happens... you have a 12-25% chance for most items, which is a legitimate chance of getting a decent piece of gear on a run. People can focus on gear and this blurs the focus on friendship / fun.

But this is why I switched to a Lurker guild. We still focus on the friendly / fun runs about twice a week, sometimes with little in terms of "gear goals" or the "gear goals" are of rather minor importance.

[Thecla]

You can't ofcourse compare a causual player's gear with a hardcore players gear. A hardcore player have spend alot of his free time to obtain them. If a causual player could obtain similar gear, why would anyone care to spend the time required for it?:)

Well, I suppse your question gets to the root of my objections. If raiding, say, with your guildmates is enjoyable and challenging, why wouldn't you spend time doing it anyway? If you really enjoy a game, why wouldn't you spent time playing it? Does WoW (or any other MMORPG, for that matter) really require large organizations that interminably grind away for better items to hook people in?

[Brista]

I think there are two separate themes to your dissatisfaction - aesthetics and gameplay

I also think there's a solution that I'd ask you to consider

Firstly have a look at this post and this quote, forget for the moment about what you need to do and be to get to this point but look at the gameplay these players experience:

The Four Horsemen - EU version
http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.asp...tmp=1#post90517

Sword_of_Doom's description of top end raiding
http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index.p...opic=8383&st=60

I am going to attempt to describe to you a fight in Naxxramas, Maexxna, from a Mage and Priest perspective(i have the rare ability to play 2 characters in a Tier 3 zone. Its a long story so i won't get into if you are curious why)

Priest perspective
Maexxna is a large spider at the end of the Spider Wing in Naxxramas. There are multiple things going on in this fight that involve multiple groups. My role as a Priest is wall healing. One of the abilities of Maexxna is to randomly throw 3 people on her spider web (takes up about half the room) at set times. I say random because other than the MT, Maexxna can grab any of the other 39 and throw them on the wall. Now the placement on the wall can be anywhere you see web. Sometimes there are line of sight issues. So i have my game camera pulled as far out as possible to scan the wall. Generally we set it up so we have 4 healers on Wall duty so that there is no gap in coverage. The people on the wall are web wrapped and that web wrap does tick damage until they are dead. Usually you only have a short amount of time to kill the web wrap and get them off the wall. So we usually have Hunters and Warlocks with the healers taking people off the wall (i think the web wrap is about 6k or so of HP). My job is to try to get a PW: S on them as well as renews and Flash heals. If i have to heal 2 people or even 3 people on the wall then decisions have to made. Generally i heal cloth first and then leather, mail and Plate. I also have to move in range of my group because every 45 seconds (i could be wrong on the time) the whole raid gets web wrapped taking 2000 damage each. Its quite important i get a Prayer of Heal off before i go back on wall duty so everyone is healed up. If i miss somebody and they get tossed on the wall they DIE. This is one of the most fun and hectic fight i have experienced in WoW. There are multiple things going on with multiple choices. I am CLEARLY NOT JUST CLICKING TWO BUTTONS and calling it a day. My decisions are important and i take great pride in keeping everyone alive on the Web wall.

Mage Perspective
Being able to play a characters with offensive and defensive abilities has given me somewhat of a unique look at this game. I love playing a Mage on the Maexxna fight just as much as my Priest. Maexxna has many abilities with some described in the Priest summary. But my duty as a Mage is to DPS Maexxna as well as take care of spider adds. At set times from the belly of Maexxna a number of spider adds are dropped onto the raid. You only have about 5 or 6 seconds to kill them because after those 5 or 6 seconds the whole raid is web wrapped for 3 or 4 seconds and takes 2000 damage each. If there is a loose spider add they generally go to the healers and kill them. So generally i have my V button clicked to bring up name plates and i wait until the spider adds are dropped from Maexxna's belly. Once they are dropped i frost nova, Cone of Cold and then Arcane Explosion them. Sometimes i need to move around to catch one that has somehow managed to get outside of the AE. Then i go back to DPS'ing Maexxna. My Mage is definitely not as active as my Priest on this encounter but my job still is important and can be stressful.

While you are quite correct there is no gameplay that's interesting once you've been 60 a few weeks without raiding or pvping both these threads taken together show a radically different game to the one you've described. A game that engages tactically minded players to the full extent of their capabilities

So I don't think you are correct to speak of a "bad game". There is a good game in there somewhere but it is poorly accessible

The look of Felwood/Plaguelands and other aesthetic considerations is an issue which recedes if you raid. I've just reached Blackwing Lair which has a very interesting and unique look. Zul Gurrub is gorgeous and tanking Hakkar, a mob the size of a small Alpine country, in front of 19 other people was a terrific experience both visually and for gameplay. (Molten Core though strongly and disappointingly looks like Ragefire Chasm)

On to randomisation of items and I think you draw an incorrect conclusion from D2. D2 rares were not a peak of excellence that was reached and then retreated from for no reason. In D2, even amongst the relatively cultured crowd of the Amazon Basin most players preferred uniques to rares and outside the Basin people much preferred uniques. Yellows were simply left on the floor. Most players don't like having to figure out the maths of whether Attacker takes damage of 3 and +2 strength is better than +3 dexterity. Randomisation of important stats on items like Vampiregaze simply led most players to perceive "great gazes" and "crap gazes" and was possibly an incentive to dupe. Duping aside if a player perceives only the top 20% of Gazes as acceptable it effectively makes a rare item 5 times rarer

Is it boring that everyone has the same items? Well I think the truth is that only a handful of people have the latest amazing item and they stand out more for the uniformity. If everyone else has one or two weapons but I have the amazing Dark Edge of Insanity that drops off Cthun I stand out much more

Now to bring the two themes together - it's all about raiding. You won't see Blackwing Lair and Naxx if you don't raid, you won't swagger around Ironforge with Dark Edge of Insanity if you don't raid and you won't access the genuinely interesting content that pushes you to play at your absolute best without raiding

I think the man who dissected Diablo 1 so effectively would really enjoy the analytical challenge of high end raiding (for instance the Four Horseman issues discussed in the quoted thread)

So raid. Go on, before your time runs out get involved with someone and start raiding

Let me talk now about the barriers to raiding. The first is that you are dependent on someone else's authority and schedule (unless you lead your own guild which I don't advise you to do). Next when you start raiding you will play with a lot of slackers. People who are afk and make the other 39 wait. People who needlessly die because they couldn't be bothered to get runecloth for bandages before they came. People who die twice and announce they're all red and arrangements have to be made for them to repair. That's very frustrating but it does get better. Then there's stupid arguments over loot and outraged attention-seeking drama from childish people

Most of that does get burned away as you progress - the further your raid guild goes the more congenial the people are to play with (big generalisation but usually true I think)

I took a long time to find a raiding guild and spent a lot of time at 60 not in one. I've eventually found one I'm happy with and I'm really enjoying this game now

Well I hope you give it a try. I think the game you want is hidden deep within the social morasse of end game raid guilds but that it is available to you if you seek it out

Regards

Brista

[Kingpin]

No, instead, you have to, as I specifically mentioned as an example, kill Satyrs that are far lower than your level and otherwise gives NO benefit like crazy to get the mooncloth (in addition to grind for the other stuff). I have done that. I typically got boored and had cleared the camps once or twice often without getting a single felcloth. I think I have totalled about 5 mooncloth in the game and that took an awefull lot of time. I made 2 mooncloth bags (which I think costed 2 mooncloth back then) since I dind't have any recipie for a mooncloth item worth upgrading too or that required other items of which I had non or would have cost considerable more gold than I made in several occations of playing.

I can see where your point is here. But, I don't agree.

As example I have a rogue alt (lvl 37 currently). He have 300 in both tailoring & enchanting. Since I got tailoring up to 300 I have made so far +20 mooncloth, that without buy a single felcoth. I spend in general 1-1.5h every 4 days on my main char (a mage) and farm 2 felcloth. In same time I usually get +80 runecloth, a couple of green items, gold. A good day this means I get 50-100g of value of just farming for 2xfelcoth. And this is the same as if you are either causual player or hardcore or what you want to name yourself. I'm neither causual or hardcore player. But, our guild raid everyday with a fixed schedule every week. But, none of us are hardcore. we have killed nefarian, as first horde and only horde on our server (thunderhorn). But, compare to other servers our server is slow in progression. But, none of us care about it, we have alot of fun. Then you loose fun, you shouldn't play the game. And you did the right choice that stopped play then you haven't fun. Wow, is a game that take alot of time, regardless if you consider yourself as causual player or hardcore. That's the concept with mmo's in general, else if everything went as fast as a single game moo's wouldn't live more than a month before people move to next game.

[Zarathustra]

I'd be happy with a system that let a skilled casual player achieve raid level gear with approximately three to five times the time a skilled raider in a good guild would take to get similar equipment.

<Tangent>

No, you wouldn't.

Our first raid on the Molten Core was August 26th, 2005. Only two months ago I completed my Tier 2 set. We started in greens and blues in the Molten Core and learned our way through it, Blackwing Lair, AQ40, and are moving to Naxx once C'thun is dead. I just now have every item I want out of the second big raid instance. I'd call us a good guild. That's our progression, starting MC and now about to down C'thun.

It's taken a year for that.

You would not want to start with greens and blues and then take three to five years to get your Tier 2 set completed. This is, of course, assuming neither the raider nor nonraider are carried through their progression on someone else's back. There's a misconception that raiding = easy epics, or that there was no groundwork laid ahead of those who ARE getting easy gear. This is generally on the part of those who haven't seen Molten Giant wipes. "But we got him to 50%!"

</tangent>

[Urza-DSF]

Let me talk now about the barriers to raiding. The first is that you are dependent on someone else's authority and schedule

This right here is what I think the real problem is for many, including myself. I know Jarulf is in a different timezone, so if he just can't get to his computer (because of work/school/sleep/whatnot) makes that content completly impossible to access. One solution would be to /gquit and join a guild that raids on an acceptable schedule, but I'm pretty sure that Jarulf would want to play with Lurkers, not a bunch of strangers.

[Brista]

This right here is what I think the real problem is for many, including myself. I know Jarulf is in a different timezone, so if he just can't get to his computer (because of work/school/sleep/whatnot) makes that content completly impossible to access. One solution would be to /gquit and join a guild that raids on an acceptable schedule, but I'm pretty sure that Jarulf would want to play with Lurkers, not a bunch of strangers.

I believe MJ left the Lurkers for reasons of raiding. He may of course not wish to try this but if he does loyalty shouldn't be so strong a tie that he has to quit the game rather than quit the guild

Not all of us Lurkers are in the guild

[Descended]

<Tangent>

No, you wouldn't.

Our first raid on the Molten Core was August 26th, 2005. Only two months ago I completed my Tier 2 set. We started in greens and blues in the Molten Core and learned our way through it, Blackwing Lair, AQ40, and are moving to Naxx once C'thun is dead. I just now have every item I want out of the second big raid instance. I'd call us a good guild. That's our progression, starting MC and now about to down C'thun.

It's taken a year for that.

You would not want to start with greens and blues and then take three to five years to get your Tier 2 set completed. This is, of course, assuming neither the raider nor nonraider are carried through their progression on someone else's back. There's a misconception that raiding = easy epics, or that there was no groundwork laid ahead of those who ARE getting easy gear. This is generally on the part of those who haven't seen Molten Giant wipes. "But we got him to 50%!"

</tangent>

I'd be happy with 3 to 5 years of mainly solo questing and (45min Strat-like) 5 mans (obviously assuming approximately the same time per week than you have spent raiding) to achieve Tier 2 equipment. This sounds like a lot of fun to me. That this sounds like a bad experience to you just points out how different the origins of our individual enjoyments of the game are. I would jump at a chance to do this because I would assume it would be a constant test of both my character and my player skills, and because I would know I could not feel gimped equipment-wise with raiders in the very long term without having to put up with people when I'm trying to have fun.

[Arnulf]

I'd be happy with 3 to 5 years of mainly solo questing and (45min Strat-like) 5 mans (obviously assuming approximately the same time per week than you have spent raiding) to achieve Tier 2 equipment. This sounds like a lot of fun to me. That this sounds like a bad experience to you just points out how different the origins of our individual enjoyments of the game are. I would jump at a chance to do this because I would assume it would be a constant test of both my character and my player skills, and because I would know I could not feel gimped equipment-wise with raiders in the very long term without having to put up with people when I'm trying to have fun.

Where did he wrote that it was not a fun experience? That it takes a long time and some setbacks does not mean that it is a bad experience.

[Jarulf]

I have a tailor at 300 and one at 270. I have never bought runecloth.

Good for you. I have had to (do note, my character just reached 60, I have not had it at 60 for a liong time, hence myitems are from leveling from 1-60 only (and some play at 60). perhaps I have played in different areas or versus more non humans than you do. I alsmot never farm or grind but tend to always have some quests or similar going on when I play.

I don't grind much, and never for runecloth. I have a crapton in the bank, I've broken my packrat urges and started selling it. Now my mains are healers, so I don't use a lot of bandages. But I also have 4-5 characters at 300 first aid.

Fine, appearantly the game is sufficiently random for this to happen. To me it was not, and yes, my character is a priest as well. Do note that I don't have multiple high level charcater to support each other, hence it has to manage on his own so to speak.

The typical grind is the Satyrs in Felwood. They drops decent amounts of cash, as well as a lot of runecloth, so its not NO benefit. And if you are looking for more of a challenge, many classes can solo the packs in DM east. Or you can go to south winterspring.

Yes, I know were to get Felcloth. Obviously there is some extra benefit, that was not the point. The point is that I don't get anything extra other than a few felcloth every now and then. Doing other things I would typically finish quests as well (on top of gold, cloth and whatever) plus items exp and so on. Gold and clot you get from anyplace no matter what (cloth as long as human). That doesn't change the estimates for me on how long it would take to craft or level it that I wrote in the last post.

Ghost mushrooms are easy to farm in the hinterlands or mauradon. A few hundred elementals in Un'goro will get you enough essence of fire, but that one is probably better to purchase because supply >> demand, because a ton drops in MC. The water and LBS are a bit tougher, but this is an epic item, you can't expect it to be easy.

And you are allready starting to describe the EXACT problem I was talking about. Not only do I need to spend a a lot of time grinding for one speicifc rare item from satyrs, i next need to go to another place to grind a second type of monster for another, and then a third palce for a third and so on. This all asume I play as a robot based on what sites claim the best grind spot for a specific item. Typically again, nothing extra except gold.

But yeah, the fact that you are wrong about this

Exactly what was I wrong about?

and a couple of other tailored items

Huh? What other item have I discussed and got wrong? I have leveled traiding to 300 you know, so it is not like I am making up as I write. True I am not the expert, I am not the super framrer and no, I don't know (nor do I want to) the perfect play to minimize something in the extreme. For most people, that is not the case and things are more like for me. I am sure you can level crafting tradeskills in no time, just as people level to 60 in a few days, that is irellevant as for most, that does not hapen.

doesn't mean that the process of leveling tradeskills is lame, or that you should stay in the game if you aren't having fun.

We were discussing the crafting of ONE item, not leveling. Leveling is made by pointless multiple crafting of a single item that require the least ingreadients. You simply farm runecloth and then level. Since I don?t like farming hour after hour and since I have had to buy tons of runecloth to get there some time after hitting 60, I appearantly play ALL wrong or have extreme unluck. Consideinrg I see the same in all crafting skills I doubt it is luck so I guess I have to stick with being one of the worst plaeyrs of WoW for not understangind how to get any items. Sure, instead of having fun, I should appearantly grind specific items for a few days, move on to the next and so on.

As for staying, what the hech do you think I said in the title? That I still stay? No, I said because for me it is not fun, I am leaving. Comming to tell me I am wrong and that in fact I did not level extremely slow is not true sinc eI HAVE leveled slow. Heck, my enchanting is at 245 (or whatever) and the speed (or lack of) that I get items to dissenchant to get the ingredients for leveling just one level is just to long (and I still have to buy other ingredients). It would take me weeks of nothing else to get to 300 (yes, it would mean not crafting that belt, leveling anything else, doing any quests and so on). As I said, this game is all about doing one thing in absurdum to get anywere, you can?t do a bit of everything since you progress nowere despite spending tons of time. That is, it is not the combined time and effeort that matters, it is only the individual times on each booring activity. The way to turn it not boring for me is to switch between stuff, but that doesn?t work in this game.