Did I ever mention that I hate cops?

[Doc]

I think you make a fair point Nystul, but I have to ask how much of the video did you watch? I only bring it up because this appears to be a case where the student's protest was becoming limp on the floor and refusing to get up. If he was restrained by cuffs, and walked out by two police officers there wouldn't be such a fiasco about the situation. Even if he decided to fight back violently against the police officers, they would have already restrained his hands with cuffs, and then there would be less of a fuss if the taser was used.

It's a misuse of power no matter how you slice it. The issue isn't just the taser, but the fact that it was used at least 5 times - and by the 4th you can hear the student saying "I can't get up" to their commands to stand up, leading to another tasering.

The issue is not just the fact that he was tasered, but how many times and under what continuing circumstances.

Cheers,

Munk

Repeated taserings lead to paralysis, loss of bladder and bowels, loss of vision, respitory distress, and even heart failure. More than three times in a short span of time can cause serious harm to a body.

And I have been tasered. I offered my body up for a women's safety training course. I can take the first jolt and pretty much just shrug it off with no ill effects, but either the second or third usually drop me down to one knee and make it difficult for me to get back up. Willpower only goes so far with those things.

True love is letting your wife tase you.

[eppie]

Eppie, you seem awfully quick to jump the gun and point fingers at the US. It's a big country, and the missteps of a few under trained individuals is not equivalent to the foreign political agenda. Do yourself a favor and separate the two.

Cheers,

Munk

I absolutely don't want to point fingers at the US, you understood me wrong.

I seperate both subjects, I just wanted to point out why I am against excessive measures against people.
It is a fact that a big part of people with jobs that gives them this kind of simple power over others are not capable of handling the job. Not US you see...everywhere this happens.


If (lets give a dutch example, because I'm tired of explaining all the time that I don't have anything against the US, in general I like the people that I know, it is my favorite holiday destination etc. etc.) in Holland police continues to hassle small Marocan boys for all kinds of small things, like just hanging around or so, these kids grow up with a strong hatred against 'the system'' the only things this yields is more, and more violent teenagers.

If you want to act tough on crime, fine, but be sure to be tough on the right persons on the right time. You make mistakes? You will get them back at you for sure.

Soldiers just like policemen are usually not masters of philosophy or PhDs in social sciences, and I have absolutely no problems with that. The people in charge though have to realize this.
In Holland we had much problems lately with marines and navy soldiers misbehaving (rapes of female colleagues, fighting in bars with local people (among who women).

As long as we don't realize that e.g. soldiers and police officers are not angels not capable of doing wrong we get a lot of problems. Of course we usually talk about individuals but it is the responsibility of the people in charge that these things don't happen....it will hurt the (in this case) policeforce too much.

[roguebanshee]

The only thing at issue here is that the police officers should have known how to better handle the situation - including adapting their treatment of the non-compliant yet unaggressive student, especially in face of the crowd of people.

All I've seen/heard so far has led me to believe that the kid was itching for a fight and/or martyrdom.

[Swiss Mercenary]

Question: Why do you "hate" police officers?

Now you've started him. Just watch - he'll go on another one of his 'In Soviet Russia' rants.

[Chesspiece_face]

The second issue has nothing to do with profiling. It has to do with some maltrained police officers reacting poorly in the given situation. Even if you believe a taser was warranted in this situation, it's clear that 5-6 taser shots was excessive. There does not appear to be any racial profiling on the behalf of the police officers. They clearly speak their command, and repeat it over and over again. There is also due warning of the oncoming tasering if student does not comply to their commands. The only thing at issue here is that the police officers should have known how to better handle the situation - including adapting their treatment of the non-compliant yet unaggressive student, especially in face of the crowd of people.

The video is impossible to see what is happening and what exactly the individual is doing, but just from listening to the officers audible commands you can tell that the use of the tazer was excessive. When the video starts the individual is complaining of already being tazered. it's possible that this use was warranted, but the next time he is tazared is in response to not standing up when the officers told him to.

The fact that the officers are telling him to stand up signifies that he is already restrained and handcuffed when they tazer him the second time. if the only issue was he wasn't standing up, than there are many ways in which officers are trained to deal with unresponsive people that are already restrained. using a Tazer is generally not one of them. in fact, in many of those types of situations it would be far preferable and easier to cuff both his hands and feet and essentially hog tie him and carry him out. If he was still acting aggressively towards the officers than there is no way they should be ordering him to stand up of his own volition.

There is a laundry list of ways in which these officers failed to properly handle the situation.

[Ashock]

While I don't exactly "love" police officers, your emotional statement is pretty absurd - just try imagining a lawless society without anyone around to [enforce] the law. Might as well move to Texas and carry a gun (occhi?). I've had several confrontations with police officers; what usually happens is they come up on me and try asserting their, for lack of a better word, energy [or force of personality?] over mine, but I don't allow this. They instantly reach for their gun and try standing OVER me, looking me down and I just coolly stare at them and never let their energy assert itself OVER mine, and it pisses them off - I don’t change my demeanor to anything offensive, I consciously keep my eyes and voice mellow so as not to provoke their attention, however I can “feel” their presence trying to overcome mine and I simply won’t allow it. I want equal respect from them, not to be treated like a suspect. This happens to me EVERY-TIME I encounter police officers close and personal so I know I'm not imagining this occurrence. I think the [real-issue] here however is not police officers themselves, but their training and their bosses.

Question: Why do you "hate" police officers? Have you ever asked yourself that? Keep in mind police officers are JUST AS CORRUPTABLE as the next man, so I don't trust them as far as I can spit, but I still have a healthy respect for their job, and I don't envy them. For someone whose job is to "serve and protect the public" when the majority of youth hates them, it's got to lead to some very intense conflicting emotions. No, I do not envy them, but I respect their job (not them directly - each individual needs to "earn" their own respect in my eyes, and no badge or crown automatically gives it too them). I think before you claim you “hate” cops, you should try imagining a world without them first. Just my 2-cents.

I never said I thought that the concept of there being police is bad. Yeh, you need police. Just not the way it is. I've seen cops from both ends of the spectrum.... the country where you have the most freedom (well, let's just accept that for the sake of argument) and the country with the least.... and I hate cops.

-A

[Ashock]

It seems like the kid wanted to make a spectacle of the situation. It's not the original rule that he broke, but the fact that that he refused to let the law enforcement finish their business. If a person had walked away from an undercover asking for ID at a bar/party, or driven away from a trooper asking for ID after pulling him over, he would have ended up on the ground in cuffs too. I don't know if the tasers were necessary, but they are probably considered more image-friendly in LA than billy clubs or a violent looking physical struggle...

6 adult males should have absolutely no problem restraining 1 adult male, without the use of billy clubs, tazers or anything else. The kid deserved to be restrained, handcuffed and arrested. But this is like killing a fly with a sledgehammer.

-A

[Lissa]

Listen, I'm not saying he should not have been handcuffed and taken outside and I'm not saying he was right in refusing to show his ID. However, the methods used in...... ummmm.... restraining him?

I'm not a fan of lawsuites and I generally hate lawyers who practice this type of law... well, actually any law. Except my wife, of course :shuriken:

This incident deserves it.
-A

ps. I hate cops.

Some people can shrug off Tazering. My mother use to work as a dispatcher for a county sheriff's department. She controlled access into the jail area. They, the county sheriff's deputies, brought in a guy that was be beligerent, even while cuffed. They tazered him, his reaction, "get those needles ouf of my back". The deputy pulled away the tazer to see if it was working (arcing) and was. Some people just don't react, others do.

In the state of Washington in their highest security corrections prison they have the tazer shield. When ever one of the inmates is acting beligerent, all they have to do is bring it out and the inmate will back into a corner and be compliant almost immediately when they've been hit by it before.

[Occhidiangela]

1. I absolutely don't want to point fingers at the US, you understood me wrong. <>
   
2. I just wanted to point out why I am against excessive measures against people. <>
   
3. It is a fact that a big part of people with jobs that gives them this kind of simple power over others are not capable of handling the job.<>
   
4. Not US you see...everywhere this happens. <>
   
5. If in Holland police continues to hassle small Marocan boys for all kinds of small things. <>
   
6. like just hanging around or so, these kids grow up with a strong hatred against 'the system'' the only things this yields is more, and more violent teenagers. <>
   
7. If you want to act tough on crime, fine, but be sure to be tough on the right persons on the right time. You make mistakes? You will get them back at you for sure.<>
   
8. Soldiers just like policemen are usually not masters of philosophy or PhDs in social sciences, and I have absolutely no problems with that. The people in charge though have to realize this.<>
   
9. In Holland we had much problems lately with marines and navy soldiers misbehaving (rapes of female colleagues, fighting in bars with local people <>
   
10. As long as we don't realize that e.g. soldiers and police officers are not angels not capable of doing wrong we get a lot of problems. <>
    
11. Of course we usually talk about individuals but it is the responsibility of the people in charge that these things don't happen....it will hurt the (in this case) policeforce too much<>
    [st]

1. Your post history argues against that disclaimer.
2. Define "excessive." I am against child abuse, against torture, and against abuse of citizens. Those are pretty easy positions to take. No risk there.
3. What data, what evidence, supports this assertion? Is this more eppie is "platitude man?" (Please prove me wrong with real data.) You seem to confuse "most" with "some" and "a few."
4. Thanks for your "non anti-US" attempt at moral equivalence between US cops, and cops in Turkey, and cops in Saudi Arabia. Really, thanks. :P
5. :P I'd say they were doing their jobs. :rolleyes: Get those punks off the street. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
6. Yes, indeed, it is the cops' fault those kids are feckless bums. "The man been effin with me" is spoken in Arabic how?
7. Of course a mistake is made here and there, which is why in the US (and in most civilized nations) their are a few safeguards. Internal Affairs divisions in police departments, courts, lawyers, and the press.
8. No crap?
9. Sailors and marines have been doing that since their professions were invented. What has happened is that Holland's sensibilities are now overpussified, as are some American sensibilities.
10. Who is this "we?"
11. Then how about the taxpayers in all civilized nations pay more tax so that these "people in charge" can get the funding approved for the mind control kits that will solve this problem? :rolleyes:

Occhi

WTF with the tags today? I am guessing > 10 posts makes the quote thing act silly. I re did this with "list"

[eppie]

From eppie:
Who is this "we?"
Then how about the taxpayers in all civilized nations pay more tax so that these "people in charge" can get the funding approved for the mind control kits that will solve this problem? :rolleyes:

Occhi

WTF with the tags today?

As long as over and over again (even after extemsive explanation) you show not to understand the differences between things like, blame, cause, reason, result I don't think it has any sense for me to react any further on this. You read what you like to read, something that makes reasonable discussion impossible.

[Occhidiangela]

I don't think it has any sense for me to react any further on this.

It is a fact that a big part of people with jobs that gives them this kind of simple power over others are not capable of handling the job.

Occhi(OS) responds:
What data, what evidence, supports this assertion? I s this more eppie is "platitude man?" (Please prove me wrong with real data.) You seem to confuse "most" with "some" and "a few."

Back it up. In other words, support your bald assertion or withdraw it. Or wear the label "platitude man" with pride.

The choice, eppie, is yours.

Occhi

[Ashock]

From eppie:
Your post history argues against that disclaimer.
Define "excessive." I am against child abuse, against torture, and against abuse of citizens. Those are pretty easy positions to take. No risk there.



What data, what evidence, supports this assertion? Is this more eppie is "platitude man?" (Please prove me wrong with real data.) You seem to confuse "most" with "some" and "a few."



Thanks for your "non anti-US" attempt at moral equivalence between US cops, and cops in Turkey, and cops in Saudi Arabia. Really, thanks. :P



:P I'd say they were doing their jobs. :rolleyes: Get those punks off the street. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Yes, indeed, it is the cops' fault those kids are feckless bums. "The man been effin with me" is spoken in Arabic how?
Of course a mistake is made here and there, which is why in the US (and in most civilized nations) their are a few safeguards. Internal Affairs divisions in police departments, courts, lawyers, and the press.



No crap?
Sailors and marines have been doing that since their professions were invented. What has happened is that Holland's sensibilities are now overpussified, as are some American sensibilities.



Who is this "we?"
Then how about the taxpayers in all civilized nations pay more tax so that these "people in charge" can get the funding approved for the mind control kits that will solve this problem? :rolleyes:

Occhi

WTF with the tags today?

Ahh, you suck. Fix that post, dammit! My head hurts.

-A

[Taem]

Ahh, you suck. Fix that post, dammit! My head hurts.

-A

Really? I can read it just fine, but I've been frequenting BBS boards and the like since the internet was in its infancy. However, I fail to see how this should make any difference because the "quotable" areas still say [quote] around them, denouncing them as unique IMO.

[Occhidiangela]

Ahh, you suck. Fix that post, dammit! My head hurts.

-A

Fixed.

Occhi

[Chaerophon]

http://www.laist.com/archives/2006/11/20/t...ers_at_ucla.php

Link to a bit of new info. on the case. Turns out that the "tasing" cop was a little less than clean.

I'm not sure what we're supposed to make of the Machiavelli quote. There are two possible readings of that one - one of which is fairly racist (whereas the other is just a defense of vigilantism...). Nonetheless:

The UCLA police department identified the officer caught electrifying the student who did not produce his college ID card as Terrence Duren, an 18-year veteran of the UCPD.

Duren hasn't had the smoothest career in law enforcement. He came to Westwood after being fired from the infamous Long Beach PD. A few years after being hired by UCLA he was accused of using his nightstick to choke a fratboy and the university asked the UCPD to fire Duren, but he was only given a three month suspension.

In late 2003 Duren shot a homeless man, Willie Davis Frazier, Jr., in a Kerckhoff Hall bathroom. Frazier, who attempted at first to shun lawyers and represent himself, was imbalanced enough to spend time in a mental institution as the court tried to figure out if he was fit to stand trial.

During a 2004 preliminary hearing in which Duren testified against Frazier, the officer carried a Machiavelli book into court, "The Prince", which argues that the ends justifies the means. "Did you know that this was Tupac's favorite book?" he asked.

Less than a year after Duren shot Frazier, UCLA decided to invest $22,000 in tasers, according to the Daily Bruin.

And now, ironically it's Duren who is being accused of abusing the taser.

"If someone is resisting, sometimes it's not going to look pretty taking someone into custody," he told the LA Times today. "If you have to use some force, it's not going to look pretty. That's the nature of this job."

[kandrathe]

http://www.laist.com/archives/2006/11/20/t...ers_at_ucla.php

Link to a bit of new info. on the case. Turns out that the "tasing" cop was a little less than clean.

I'm not sure what we're supposed to make of the Machiavelli quote. There are two possible readings of that one - one of which is fairly racist (whereas the other is just a defense of vigilantism...). Nonetheless:

Crap! I think that was the same guy I taught the five point palm exploding heart technique.

[Occhidiangela]

I'm not sure what we're supposed to make of the Machiavelli quote. There are two possible readings of that one - one of which is fairly racist (whereas the other is just a defense of vigilantism...).

Machiavelli quote as "racist?" *puzzled look*

Could you elaborate on that?

Occhi

[eppie]

http://www.laist.com/archives/2006/11/20/t...ers_at_ucla.php

Link to a bit of new info. on the case. Turns out that the "tasing" cop was a little less than clean.

A simple sorry will do fine Occhi. :D (I know my 'big part of' is still not proven but I don't feel like asking every single one of them to make statistics., Usually my feeling about these things is correct, so I keep writing down that crap. Just don't get to angry about it):)

And you may call me platypus man. I like that more.

[Chaerophon]

Machiavelli quote as "racist?" *puzzled look*

Could you elaborate on that?

Occhi

As in "this was Tupac's favourite book. See the kind of stuff we have to deal with out there?" Since Tupac was seen as something of a leader among many youths in the black community, it might be taken as mildly racist... or simply a commentary on gang violence. Bottom line: I just don't get the quote at all - it makes no sense for a cop, testifying in a court of law, to reference Tupac (or Machiavelli, for that matter) in defense of his action.

[Urza-DSF]

hellow to all of you..

*sniffs* Hmm, have to admit, smells somewhat odd. No obvious links/scams but a double misspelled "introduction" post with nothing to add to the current thread discussion? May want to keep an eye on this one, but if you are a new member, it may be a good idea to read the forum rules/guidelines and lurk around a bit to get a feel for things.