patch 2.0.10 notes on the PTR

[Klaus]

Nah, the nerfs to shadow priests are minor. There're already talents in the shadow tree to reduce aggro on shadow spells by 8% per rank up to three.

I'm sorry, but as a dedicated shadow priest, I can't disagree more. The loss of 5% heal from VE and the loss of crits is irritating, but not a big deal. The loss of threat reduction is going to get me eaten again and again and again. The AoE heal from VE generates a *ton* of aggro, and going from -40% threat (-25% for shadow affinity, 20% for silent resolve, which multiplies out to -40% total) to -25% threat (shadow affinity alone) means I'm going to have to hold back on the damage. I can pull aggro today if I'm not careful (not usually on the main focus fire mob, but on the 2nd or 3rd, etc.), and it's just going to get way worse. Keep in mind that even if I don't cast VE and go completely gonzo on the output, I still can't keep up with mages or warlocks or rogues. So, if I'm going to pull aggro and get killed using VE, and I don't do as much damage as a mage when not using VE, why even invite me into the group?

And yes, I have played with and without the threat reduction in the past, so I'm familliar with the difference it makes. My tanks tell me it's *much* easier to tank for me when I have it.

I can live with the other changes, but the change to silent resolve is a major nerf.

[TheDragoon]

I'm sorry, but as a dedicated shadow priest, I can't disagree more. The loss of 5% heal from VE and the loss of crits is irritating, but not a big deal. The loss of threat reduction is going to get me eaten again and again and again. The AoE heal from VE generates a *ton* of aggro, and going from -40% threat (-25% for shadow affinity, 20% for silent resolve, which multiplies out to -40% total) to -25% threat (shadow affinity alone) means I'm going to have to hold back on the damage. I can pull aggro today if I'm not careful (not usually on the main focus fire mob, but on the 2nd or 3rd, etc.), and it's just going to get way worse. Keep in mind that even if I don't cast VE and go completely gonzo on the output, I still can't keep up with mages or warlocks or rogues. So, if I'm going to pull aggro and get killed using VE, and I don't do as much damage as a mage when not using VE, why even invite me into the group?

And yes, I have played with and without the threat reduction in the past, so I'm familliar with the difference it makes. My tanks tell me it's *much* easier to tank for me when I have it.

I can live with the other changes, but the change to silent resolve is a major nerf.

My random thought is that they have made it no longer work with shadow spells, but would the healing aggro still be reduced by the talent? If so, then the aggro generated by VE will be no different now from before whereas the aggro generated on a single target by your shadow spells will, indeed, be greater than before. If this is true, then it is really just a single target aggro nerf which is less bad than the AoE aggro nerf that it could have been. :)

[Klaus]

My random thought is that they have made it no longer work with shadow spells, but would the healing aggro still be reduced by the talent? If so, then the aggro generated by VE will be no different now from before whereas the aggro generated on a single target by your shadow spells will, indeed, be greater than before. If this is true, then it is really just a single target aggro nerf which is less bad than the AoE aggro nerf that it could have been. :)

Well, let's see - if VE is considered shadow (even though it's a heal) then this is an AoE nerf because only one talent appliest to it. But if it's not shadow, then there's really no change to the AoE aggro because Shadow Affinity wouldn't apply to it today. This would be a nice question to have answered, but I'm not sure how to go about doing it.

Either way, this is a still a nerf to me, because I used to be able to get -threat to both heals and damage for 8 talent points. Or, I could get less -threat with only 5. Now, if I want -threat to both, I have to spend all 8 points. The holy priest still gets their -threat to both for the same 5 they were spending before (not that holy priests need nerfing at all). So, if SR doesn't apply to VE, then I have a nasty choice to make - spend 5 points for -threat when I'm healing (which I do, but not horribly often) or find someplace else to move those points? Anyway, I'm rambling.

I find it annoying that they choose to nerf my ability to play in a group, while still leaving the warlocks and hunters massively overpowered for solo.

[Mavfin]

I find it annoying that they choose to nerf my ability to play in a group, while still leaving the warlocks and hunters massively overpowered for solo.

Well, you have to leave easy mode in for some players, you know. Sure, warlocks and hunters aren't out of sight in raids, but hunters aren't *the* preferred farming class by accident. They're so uber solo, it's not even funny.

[Warlock]

We used ferals in raids when needed in 1.x. We should see them in 2.x, too. And, I saw a ton of posts by warriors that looked just like the above. Really, it'll all settle out. The sky hasn't fallen:D

Here is a complete list of all Druid tanking epics in BC:
Earthwarden



Yeah, I'm a little concerned.

[TheDragoon]

Here is a complete list of all Druid tanking epics in BC:
Earthwarden
Yeah, I'm a little concerned.

Actually, there's another staff that drops in one of the Coilfang dungeons on heroic (I think it was the last boss in the Slave Pens, but it might have been the hydra in underbog that I remember seeing it listed for). :)

[nobbie]

Earthwarden is nice; if I just wouldn't be too lazy to get the Cenarion Expedition rep up to Exalted;)

[Artega]

They've been screwing over PvE due to PvP whining for a long, long time. I don't see them stopping now.

And vice-versa. Until they declare the game either pure PvE or pure PvP, it's going to continue.

[Brista]

;)

Sigh, so true, Nobbie

I've put my level 70 Bear Druid on hold for now and will play around with other characters. Too disheartened to gear up any further

It's not that bears will suddenly become unable to tank. It's that it will be pointless to have the Druid do tanking when you have a Warrior available and there's always spare Warriors around

Tank spots are competed for and this patch hits Druids in so many ways

- less armour
- less life
- less threat
- less damage (we'll probably output comparable dps to Prot Warriors which is fine)
- even the Idol of Brutality gets nerfed for further threat reduction on our Swipes

Warriors with whom we compete for the raid tank spots
- more rage
- +1% crit which is more dps and rage
- thuunder clap which makes a great aoe tanking skill available without stance dancing and the consequent loss of mitigation and threat

It's not just the Druid nerfs which hurt us, it's the Warrior buffs which also hurt us since we are competing for the same spots

So we've gone from viable raid tanks (over-powered in other areas relative to Prot Warriors) to non-viable raid tanks (over-powered in other areas relative to Prot Warriors). For people, like me, who don't really care about those other areas and who do care about raid tanking it's time to dust off the Warrior alt

[Trien]

Actually, there's another staff that drops in one of the Coilfang dungeons on heroic (I think it was the last boss in the Slave Pens, but it might have been the hydra in underbog that I remember seeing it listed for). :)

If you're thinking of Greatstaff of the Leviathan (360 AC, +36 Str, +33 Sta, 423 feral AP) from Underbog, it's got a pretty nice combination of stats, but alas, if you're thinking 'purple', it's not actually epic:). Then there's the BoE epic Staff of Natural Fury (320 AC, +30 Str, +30 Sta, 525 feral AP, -200 shifting mana), which is decent as well. Whether you want to use one of these over something such as Earthwarden though will rather depend on your armour/stamina/defense stats that you have managed to acquire on your other pieces of armor...

[lemekim]

Here is a complete list of all Druid tanking epics in BC:
Earthwarden
Yeah, I'm a little concerned.

One of the problems with the whole feral itemization right now (current patch) is that if Bear Druids truly got epic gear itemized specifically for tanking (like Warriors currently have), they would be quite above Warriors in actual mitigation. A lot of Druids use various blues and greens for tanking, yet achieve mitigation numbers comparable to well-geared Warriors (best mix of blues and epics).

So this nerf might actually serve as a precursor to some upcoming changes to feral itemization - a clean divide between actual tanking gear and DPS gear.

[Taelas]

If you're thinking of Greatstaff of the Leviathan (360 AC, +36 Str, +33 Sta, 423 feral AP) from Underbog, it's got a pretty nice combination of stats, but alas, if you're thinking 'purple', it's not actually epic:). Then there's the BoE epic Staff of Natural Fury (320 AC, +30 Str, +30 Sta, 525 feral AP, -200 shifting mana), which is decent as well. Whether you want to use one of these over something such as Earthwarden though will rather depend on your armour/stamina/defense stats that you have managed to acquire on your other pieces of armor...

The Feral Staff of Lashing has 300 armor, +35 Str, +29 Agi, +33 Sta and +525 Feral AP. It's a drop from Heroic Botanica, which makes it more obtainable than the Staff of Natural Fury. The better stats (although it has less armor) also makes it roughly equal to Earthwarden with regards to tanking.

[TheDragoon]

If you're thinking of Greatstaff of the Leviathan (360 AC, +36 Str, +33 Sta, 423 feral AP) from Underbog, it's got a pretty nice combination of stats, but alas, if you're thinking 'purple', it's not actually epic:). Then there's the BoE epic Staff of Natural Fury (320 AC, +30 Str, +30 Sta, 525 feral AP, -200 shifting mana), which is decent as well. Whether you want to use one of these over something such as Earthwarden though will rather depend on your armour/stamina/defense stats that you have managed to acquire on your other pieces of armor...

I guess I got those staves somewhat mixed up. The epic staff I was thinking of was the one Alliera posted. But Greatstaff of the Leviathan is also very, very good. :)

[fractaled]

So we've gone from viable raid tanks (over-powered in other areas relative to Prot Warriors) to non-viable raid tanks (over-powered in other areas relative to Prot Warriors). For people, like me, who don't really care about those other areas and who do care about raid tanking it's time to dust off the Warrior alt

If a Prot-warrior isn't your #1 choice for a raid tank, you have three options:
1) make it so that a prot-warrior is #1 for raid tanking
2) change the class so that they have another role in raids
3) ignore them and watch them all go away

Currently, a Prot warrior gives up a ton to tank. Horrible grinding potential, horrible PvP potential. It's obvious that they have to have a niche. Also, if bears are taking over that roll in their current gear (pre nerf), it means that they will be broken down the road when they do get gear -- and perhaps that is the reason for the current dearth of epic druid tanking gear.

[Tal]

So we've gone from viable raid tanks (over-powered in other areas relative to Prot Warriors) to non-viable raid tanks (over-powered in other areas relative to Prot Warriors). For people, like me, who don't really care about those other areas and who do care about raid tanking it's time to dust off the Warrior alt

:blink:Not take along a class that can tank, can dps and heal in a pinch seems pretty short sighted to me. Especially in light of the smaller raid compositions in TBC.

That being said a feral druid doesn't give up as much in comparison to a protection warrior to spec for raids. All of the best talents for tanking and dps are in one tree. A protection warrior gives up DPS to do one job and only one job in raids just like a healing specc'd priest gives up a lot of their dps.

And on behalf of many warriors I reiterate: We never wanted druids nerfed but warriors buffed. Druids, paladins specc'd for tanking and arms/fury warriors should be of comparable effectiveness for tanking. Protection specc'd warriors should be above that because of their sacrifices.

[Brista]

If a Prot-warrior isn't your #1 choice for a raid tank, you have three options:
1) make it so that a prot-warrior is #1 for raid tanking
2) change the class so that they have another role in raids
3) ignore them and watch them all go away

Currently, a Prot warrior gives up a ton to tank. Horrible grinding potential, horrible PvP potential. It's obvious that they have to have a niche. Also, if bears are taking over that roll in their current gear (pre nerf), it means that they will be broken down the road when they do get gear -- and perhaps that is the reason for the current dearth of epic druid tanking gear.

Explain Resto Druids then

I also gave up a ton to heal when I was Resto. Effectively there was nothing to do except raid

Do we get a unique monopoly on healing in raids though? Do we heck

A Prot Warrior before this nerf gave up a lot to be a valid tank choice. Now they give up a lot to be the only tank choice

I don't buy the argument that Warriors require exclusivity to make the class worth playing. Lots of people roll Warriors and develop them as dps or pvpers. Does the fact that other classes can dps and pvp stop people rolling Warriors? I don't think so

People roll Warriors because they like Warriors. It is the heroic archtype. Not being able to heal is an advantage for Warriors because if you have a Warrior tank no one ever suggests you should respec Resto to be more useful

Blizzard have sold Druid tanks out. We were promised raid viability, we got it and now it's been taken off us again. I doubt we will get it back

In fact I think this is an underhand way to boost the number of raid healers. Just when raid healers were really fed up 3 months ago they promised us viability in a number of new and interesting ways to keep us interested in the characters then, realising that with the healers turning into tanks and dps they lacked healers, they're starting a campaign of eroding these alternative roles

With regard to the jack of all trades role it's simply not as much fun for me as tanking. Tactically I don't see a lot of point to it. It's not like many people can switch mid-fight from raid class tank to raid class healer simply because the roles are so gear-dependent. And most of the cases where people tout hybrids as being useful in raids can be addressed in a different way. If you have 6 mobs to tank and only 3 tanks they can take 2 each instead of turning 3 of your healers into additional tanks

As for the jack of all trades master of none argument I don't really buy it. Why don't we suck at healing if it's "unfair" for us to do anything well? And I certainly don't want to be the raid member who sucks at multiple roles since I was rather set on tanking well and it seems a poor alternative to do lots of things to a mediocre standard

I've had a fun day instancing with my Rogue, now level 61, my Druid however is now retired. Other people can do the hard work of tanking and healing I'm done for now. Too much hard work and too many kicks in the teeth. And at least this way I can vent some of my Druid frustrations on unwary pvp-flagged Alliance players

[Warlock]

Prot warrior weakness at soloing and at doing damage in raids is almost always overstated. At 60 I was coming around the middle of the DPS pack with my 31 Prot warrior when raiding and that was before 12 rage uninterruptible slams. See some of the other threads in these forums for DPS of a deep prot build - it's surprisingly competitive.

[Monkey]

:blink:Not take along a class that can tank, can dps and heal in a pinch seems pretty short sighted to me. Especially in light of the smaller raid compositions in TBC.

Well, Druids have to spend a lot of time (as it is) educating people about our class. Pre-expansion, it was educating them about our range of abilities. In the Expansion, we have to educate people about our limitations. For example, Tal probably didn't mean, "Go from rogue DPS to holy priest healing in combat," by "heal in a pinch," but the popular view is that Druids basically can. People simply don't realize the effect our gear has on our abilities. And for feral druids--no one has a CLUE how much iLoTP heals.

(Hint: it's a lot. If I shift out of cat in some places, people die)

And yeah, Tal, that short sightedness is definitely out there and will be exacerbated by these nerfs. A KZ raider was telling me just the other day that his ideal raid composition for KZ was "One of every class and an extra warrior...because you need two tanks in some places,"

[Legedi]

I'm just going to stick to the warrior changes. While I'm sad about the TF threat nerf, I knew it had to happen. I wish it would have happened when the expansion came out, and not after I've run a bunch of these instances already with it.

I am very excited about the Thunderclap buff to be able to use it in defensive stance. Back before I had a TF I used to do the stance dancing to keep it up on bosses that didn't hit too hard. But on bosses that did hit really hard it wasn't worth the risk, and we had other warriors keep it up. Now that I won't be using TF to tank I can keep it up my self.

Thunderclap will also help with tanking multiple mobs. While I never had any problems with multiple mobs TF and it's proc helped a lot there. Thunderclap will also end up migrating more damage than TF did because it will slow every mob (well up to 4) all the time. Thunderfury you had to wait for the proc, and only the current target got slowed.

I've already respeced to imp TC, and I've already picked up a new weapon to replace TF. So now I'm just waiting for the patch.:)

[Lissa]

And yeah, Tal, that short sightedness is definitely out there and will be exacerbated by these nerfs. A KZ raider was telling me just the other day that his ideal raid composition for KZ was "One of every class and an extra warrior...because you need two tanks in some places,"

Funny, I think the general consensus of Lurkers running Karazhan is one of every class and a shadow priest.

I know my perferred setup for Karazhan would be the following:

Warlock with Demonic Sacrifice (it just seems to make certain fights a whole lot easier)
Mage
Druid with a mix of Feral and Resto
Shaman with a mix of Enhancement and Resto
Warrior with a mix of talents with about 15 to 20 points into Prot
2 Priests, one Holy/Disc or Disc/Holy and Shadow/Disc
Paladin with a mix of talents, probably lean toward Protection with a smattering in Retrib and Holy
Rogue
Hunter with either 31 points in Marksman or 33 points in Survival to up physical DPS (because there are several DPS check fights and a few fights where you encounter magic immune mobs).