2.1.0 Patch Notes

[Mirajj]

I can read, and know that the hunter changes that are coming are a nice START at helping us out. But it's just a start. A tiny nit to you, GG. After the patch, you'll be gaining 330RAP on HM. It starts out at 110, and you stack it up to 440, which will take a lone hunter about 30 seconds, give or take. Not bad. You can also refresh HM without losing the stack, which is very nice. However, you don't gain 440 on top of the 110 you already get. Now, I could spend a long time typing out what I think needs to be looked at/adjusted with hunters, but I don't feel like wasting my time/typing so I'll just nick a post that Nalyenarie/Starbuck made on the issues and note that it's a really good post. There is more stuff on the EJ forums (The "Hunting Hunters" thread is a great one) that could be looked at, as well.

The core problems, in brief:

* Hunter DPS doesn't scale well. In 5-mans and Karazhan we can compete with the other DPS classes, but as you progress through 25-mans their DPS rises faster than ours does, largely due to synergistic raid buffs/debuffs that increase damage by percentages rather than flat amounts. Obviously we haven't gotten past Maulgar so this isn't personal experience talking, but I've read volumes posted on EJ and other sites from Hunters who are in Serpentshrine and The Eye, and every single one of them expresses this viewpoint.

* It's easy to group other classes to maximize their DPS, but generally not worth it to do so for Hunters - we're a physical damage dealing class that gets no benefit from many melee/AP buffs, and simultaneously a mana using class that gets no benefit from many caster buffs, and putting melee-buffing classes and caster-buffing classes that do benefit Hunters together in the same group is anti-synergistic for everyone except for that lucky Hunter.

* Hunters are mana-starved. Blizzard's solution to this was to spend (waste) loads of stat points on our gear on int and mp5 at the expense of agi/ap/crit (gimping our DPS), and give us Aspect of the Viper, a mana regeneration skill that A) is dependent on us wearing the DPS-gimped int gear andB)takes the place of Aspect of the Hawk (further gimping our DPS due to a boatload of lost AP and no Improved AotH proc). A Hunter of any spec wearing Rogue leather and chain-drinking Fel Mana pots will out-DPS a Hunter wearing Hunter mail, no contest. That is seriously, seriously jacked up. And said leather-clad Hunter will still be busting their butt to just barely keep up with Rogues/Mages/Warlocks, if they do at all. A Shadow Priest helps immensely, but many RLs feel that the damage return on VT is going to be better from a Mage, so Hunters don't always get in an SP group.

* Putting out better DPS than the MT requires low latency and unforgiving attention to timing. Being late by even a hair with a special lowers your DPS. Every time. It adds up fast if you're not 100% on the ball the whole time you're playing (or, again, if your net connection is subpar). A huge, huge chunk of our DPS is autoshotting, which we have no control over aside from being able to turn it on and off, and we have to precisely time a special between each one. Delay an auto by pressing multi/arcane/steady at the wrong instant, or god forbid clobber an auto entirely, and watch your DPS plummet. This, of course, is on top of paying attention to all of the other important stuff going on in a boss fight. Keeping up respectable DPS is just plain stressful for a TBC Hunter!

To summarize: Unforgiving play mechanics, "what-were-they-smoking" itemization, poor scaling compared to other classes, physical damage/mana bar creates fundamental clashes when finding a Hunter's "niche" in raid groups.

Pet survivability in boss encounters was/is a huge issue as well, but they seem to have caught on to that. I can't say for certain how well it will turn out, with the new instacast Mend Pet, the pet Avoidance skill and the Cleave changes/removal of Sweeping Strikes from mobs, but I'm fairly optimistic.

Possible actions Blizzard might consider to fix things if they ever actually played their own game and had a fracking clue about it (some suggestions stolen from an EJ thread, but hey, they're amazing suggestions):
* Re-itemize our gear to the way it was pre-BC: a conservative amount of int, loads of agi/ap/crit, with a healthy mix of hit items for various slots so you can get to the hit cap in a few different ways.
* Add a trainable passive skill that converts a percentage of agi to int.
* Change the Effieciency talent to a "passive Aspect of the Viper".
* Change autoshot to automatically fire after every special in the same way as the "free auto" after Aimed we used to have, based on weapon speed. This would allow us to still weave shots auto-special-auto-special-auto etc, but without the possibility of clipping an auto because you hit your special half a second late.
* Make things like Unleashed Rage or Battle Shout affect RAP, and/or give other classes +% based buffs/debuffs that affect our damage, so we scale similarly with gear to casters.
* Make TSA scale with gear. The BM group buff (Ferocious Inspiration, +3% damage to your party) and the SV group buff (Expose Weakness, +AP equal to 25% of your agi for the whole raid) both scale, TSA will always be 125 AP even when everyone's in T6 or beyond and 125 is just a drop in the bucket.
* Change AP to RAP on gear. The +ranged attack power mod exists (though the Arena crossbow is the only endgame item that has it), and +RAP costs fewer statpoints than +AP for obvious reasons. Of course, you still have to have mail gear with +AP on it for enhancement shamans, but some of the mail could be changed this way (the Hunter tier sets could for sure), as well as ranged weapons with +AP and the various Hunter polearms out there.
* Buff Steady Shot. A couple of nice suggestions I've heard from this are to change the bizzare (and useless against un-dazeable bosses) +175 damage if the target is dazed to +175 damage if the target is Hunter's Marked or Stung; and/or changing the Barrage and Improved Barrage talents to affect Steady as well as Multi (which, finally, would be the end of Hunters being forced to use their skill for striking multiple targets at once when DPSing a single solitary mob).

The change to HM where we'll have 330 more RAP than before after charging it up is nice, but it's a band-aid fix - it doesn't scale, so even if it puts us at the level of other DPS in T5-level content now, get to the Black Temple or whatever's after that in a huge content patch 6 months from now and the other DPS will rise above us again.

One of the big problems is outlined in the last paragraph. Whatever they do to hunters now, as hunters scale so very badly with just about anything, will be undone pretty quick as well. Hunters need some real help, not some bandaid fixes. And I'd like to point out that the BM tree isn't seeing many problems because they are finally buffed up to the level of the other two. Which is good. It's about time. 3 viable trees is a great thing. But the problem (that I notice a lot of BM hunters don't see yet) is that all three specs are still at the bottom of the dps pile by a large margin (when put up against players of equal gear and skill this really shows). It's easy to be the top dps in a mixed group. Or a group that is not well balanced, or one that the RL hasn't bothered to put together very well for class synergy. But when it really matters, when it's down the wire and you realized that your group just can't beat that dps race boss...take a look at your raid composition, and I'd be willing to wager there's more than one hunter (which is all a raid needs/brings anymore) in it.

That's just not right. Not at all.

Oh, and making a massive chunk of our dps completely based on/screwed up by even a little bit of lag is utter bs, but I doubt they'll be looking at that one anytime soon.

[Lissa]

I disagree that it's an issue with the Hunter as whole Mirajj, the issue is that all the Marksman want to do high DPS at all times. The Marksman tree is akin to the brightest flame burns briefest. Marksman put out a lot of damage very quickly before they're mana runs out. The other two trees do not deal damage in the same way as that is not what those trees are about. Beastmaster is all about the team aspect of the Hunter and their pet. Survival is all about control.

BM and Surv have longevity because they aren't designed to put out a lot of damage quickly, they also synergize with groups more readily due to their talents. Marksman is, and always has been, about increasing the Hunter's DPS in an alpha strike that tries to demolish the target. Meanwhile, the BM Hunter is putting out lesser damage, but is doing it through not only the Hunter, but their pet. Survival on the other hand is about controlling the ebb and flow of the fight either through disabling the target (traps, WC, WS), allowing the Hunter to withstand the blows or main tain their mana, or boosting their damage and their allies damage by a steady amount. The three trees have totally different fighting styles and they are all meant to accomplish their goals in a different light.

The problem is this, the raid fights are not what they were prior to tBC. Think back to the longest boss fights in the game, it was fights like Nef and Twin Emps which took 12 to 15 minutes to complete while most other fights were over in the 5 to 7 minute range. This meant that Marksmen were able to dish out the DPS because they didn't have as much problem running out of mana during the fight. Now in tBC, the fights have changed with most fights lasting more along the times equivalent to Nef and Twin Emps and Marksman are hitting the mana wall and hitting it hard. These issues have been their for a long time, it's just that the boss fights covered them because the fights were relatively short in comparison. Because of this change in the mechanics of the fights, BM Hunters and Survival Hunters are starting to make in roads because they've always been set to fight a protracted engagement, not a short one like Marksman are and Blizzard has gone the protracted engagement route with the fights (10 minute enrages or no enrage at all per se - Aran, Prince, Moroes, and Gruul have different enrage mechanics that aren't true enrages).

What you're arguing for is to make the Marksman have the same longevity as the BM and Survivial Hunters have while not diminishing their DPS. You can't have your cake and eat it too, you have to choose which way you want to fight, quick and dirty or protracted and piecemeal.

[Artega]

You also need to remember that Blizzard also wants to foster a strong PvP presence in their game, and their development team may be making changes to that effect.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to have a strong raiding end-game, small-group end-game, and PvP end-game at the same time. But I guess we'll see.

[Quark]

With your post you're assuming Beast Mastery has longevity and Survival has anywhere close to decent DPS, neither of which I've seen as actually being true.

[Legedi]

T5 and equivalent where already buffed on the first 2.1 test patch I think, but heroics, Kara, T4 had not been. But now they are it looks like some more changes are coming through.

One example I found:

Azure-shield of Coldarra
4668 Armor (+407)
115 block value (+14)
33 stamina (+5)
32 defense rating (+12)
+33 Block value (+3)

Crest of the sha'tar
4465 Armor (+407)
108 block (+15)
19 stamina (+1)
2 blue sockets with a +3 dodge rating socket bonus (no change)
13 Defense rating (+2)
+24 block value (+1)

Those are pretty masive buffs. If they change the rest of the Kara epic similarly I'll probably be able to tank all the curent bosses I do now with no pots. What a crazy idea!

[Lissa]

With your post you're assuming Beast Mastery has longevity and Survival has anywhere close to decent DPS, neither of which I've seen as actually being true.

Then you need to take a look at some of the EJ threads on Hunters. There's several threads of BM Hunters doing similar DPS to Marksman Hunters over a fight an d being in the top 5 DPS in 25 man raids. There are also threads theorycrafting about the affects of the synergy of the Survival Hunter with EW in 2.1 with the allowance of more physical DPS on the targets both on EJ and on the Blizzard forums.

[Quark]

Those are pretty masive buffs. If they change the rest of the Kara epic similarly I'll probably be able to tank all the curent bosses I do now with no pots. What a crazy idea!

Kalgan says they've only gone through about 1/3rd of the coming epic item changes. Get this: item levels are rising. The exalted Violet Signets are going from ilvl 115 to ilvl 130. The badge rewards are going from ilvl 100 to what looks to be ilvl 110. Looks like rep reward armor is going 95->105 while rep reward weapons are 95->100.

There was a slight DPS nerf on high-end weapons before, and now it makes more sense since the high end ones will have a higher base DPS due to item level increasing. If Guile of Khoraazi is the standard indication, overall weapon DPS will only be slightly increased over 2.0. Yes, this caries over into sacrificial DPS (Blade of the Archmage gains 9 more +spell damage, for instance).

We'll have to wait and see if they purposely skip any items on the ilvl bumps. Tailoring? Anyone?

[Taelas]

We'll have to wait and see if they purposely skip any items on the ilvl bumps. Tailoring? Anyone?

Oh, that'd be great.

[Quark]

There's several threads of BM Hunters doing similar DPS to Marksman Hunters over a fight an d being in the top 5 DPS in 25 man raids.

Right, and these generally involve stacking it towards the hunter's benefit. That means Shadow Priest and Fel Mana Potions at the minimum. That's artificial longevity. They are the exception, not the rule. If you look hard enough, you can find any class leading a DPS chart. Doesn't make the class balanced.

There are also threads theorycrafting about the affects of the synergy of the Survival Hunter with EW in 2.1 with the allowance of more physical DPS on the targets both on EJ and on the Blizzard forums.

Haven't seen it, so can't comment.

[Concillian]

Hmm... If those shields are being buffed I may need to rethink what I spend my warriors arena points on first... was going to be a shield, but now?

I assume they won't change arena gear anytime soon unless season 2 = better gear. It's still a couple weeks at our current rate before I get the ~2k points needed anyway.

[VinnieJones]

As far as I know each season of gear is going to be a tich better than the last. Here is the question though, are they changing the graphics as well? I really like the current shaman shoulders.

[lemekim]

Hmm... If those shields are being buffed I may need to rethink what I spend my warriors arena points on first... was going to be a shield, but now?

I assume they won't change arena gear anytime soon unless season 2 = better gear. It's still a couple weeks at our current rate before I get the ~2k points needed anyway.

It will probably get buffed as well - consider that right now, Arena Weapons will be quite inferior to BoP Blacksmithing Tier 2 weapons, and that's just not right. Even for Blizzard and their lack of concern for PvP.

[Concillian]

Buffed BS weapon screenshots:
http://www.worldofraids.com/news/new-black...ing-weapons.jpg

[Mirajj]

Then you need to take a look at some of the EJ threads on Hunters. There's several threads of BM Hunters doing similar DPS to Marksman Hunters over a fight an d being in the top 5 DPS in 25 man raids. There are also threads theorycrafting about the affects of the synergy of the Survival Hunter with EW in 2.1 with the allowance of more physical DPS on the targets both on EJ and on the Blizzard forums.

The threads that I've seen about BM longevity/DPS and Surv dps are coming from hunters heavily weighted to succeed. They are decked out in rogue gear and have a full set of buffs and every consumable they can, in addition to having their raid group stacked for them.

As Quark said, that's not the usual or proper case. I have heard that BM and MM hunters are just about dead even for dps these days depending on who is in what group, and if the pet lives. Surv dps is still under those two.

But the point of the picture you are missing is that NONE of the three trees is even close to competitive with any other dps class (and several of the hybrids) without some serious effort put into it. Then, they are "competitive" with the low end of that class.

For a class that is supposed to be dps, that is BS. A well geared, buffed, leatherclad hunter can just keep up or outdo a half asleep rogue, mage, or warlock, if the latency gods are nice that night. That is more BS. It was/is bad enough that hunters, warriors and rogues are at each other's throats over weaponry. But now it's even worse as if hunter wants to be more than a blip on the DM, s/he needs rogue GEAR, too. In addition to slamming back Fel/Mana pots and/or haveing a pocket shadowpriest.

Itemization is a huge problem. Tiers 4 and 5 are just about useless compared to other various blues and purples. Tier 6 (as announced) is some good steps in the right direction.

Also, the fights that I've been seeing a lot of folks post DM's on and saying "hunters are just fine" are Gruul fights where the hunter found a sweet spot they didn't have to move from for the entire length of the fight. That's also an artificial measuring stick. Anyone who can stand still and nuke away is going to do more than someone else who is constantly on the move, esp with hunter dps cycles being so click and latency dependant.

Another note...I never had mana problems on the Emps (Since I was only Aimed and auto'ing. I even had spare mana for Aspect switching, with mana left over at the end of the fight). Nor did I ever have mana problems on Nef. If I was getting low, just autoshot for a bit and/or take a pot. Problem solved. My dps was still (for the most part) competitive with the other classes.

A lot of folks say "if you have mana problems, downrank." Since hunter downranking has always scaled like utter shyt, this just gets worse with the changes in 2.1. Not that downranking was really an option, as moving down ranks dropped our already meager dps right into the gutter.

So as you say, dps is becoming more important. If your dps isn't above this bar, you don't pass the fight. Having hunters in a raid is currently hurting a raids dps if you have more than 1. You may squeak by with 2, but that's pushing it. For a class that is a "Dps class", we aren't producing. Sure, we can produce in SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES, but those are just that, and are rare occurances, not the norm. This is the root of many hunters problems. We'd like more consistency. I do, for instance, very much like the changes to HM (as much as I dislike pvp, I do realize that it has to be taken into consideration) and changes like that are a good way to boost pve without doing too much damage to pvp.

We'd like to scale, too. Take Trueshot Aura, for instance. Can you tell me of any other skills that are almost class defining skills, obtained at lvl 40, that are unchanged at all still when you are lvl 70? It's the little things like this that have been niggling away at hunters for the last year or so, and just frusterating us. Many of us hoped that this patch would help a lot of the problems. It's hardly addressed any of them. Yay, BM does more. Yay, Surv does more. Soon they'll realize that no matter what they do, they can't even keep up, much less compete. Then they'll be at the point a lot of MM's are right now...feeling that their only spot on a raid is for a single pity skill (TSA, FI, or EW, pick your flavor) and realizing that's all they are brought along for.

When I raid...I want to feel like a part of the team. I want to feel like I have contributed to the success my friends and I are partaking in. I want to know that if I put in the work to buff out the yinyang, work the consumables, and do a perfect shot rotation on a low ping night that it'll be reflected on the DM. I want to be excited when/if I see "mail" or "Class:Hunter" stuff drop.

Right now...there are very few hunters feeling the above, which is why you are seeing a lot of the "old time" hunters disappear slowly. We feel like we are more a drag to a raid group than a help. I appreciate that my friends will take me on raids with them. I just wish that I could feel that they were doing it without my feeling I was gimping the raid by being along with them.

[oldmandennis]

Well hunters were the last class implemented and it still shows. Distract and Misdirect are good starts, but in my opinion there should be at least 1 more cool spell that helps hunters control a fight. Keep in mind that as is, many min-max guilds bring 2 just for MD... 2 is an appropriate number for a TBC raid. The fact that if the raid scaled up to 40 you would still min-max to 2 hunters is what gives them a lot of angst I believe.

E: Also, this has happened before. As early as BWL we were sitting a pile of locks, I believe we wanted 3 for curses and the rest stayed home if we had sufficient mages. Now that locks are "fixed" we have them coming out of the woodwork. I'm not saying hunters don't need some serious loving, or that it doesn't hurt when a long time hunter gives up the game, but I doubt that the class is really going to die anytime soon.

[Lissa]

The threads that I've seen about BM longevity/DPS and Surv dps are coming from hunters heavily weighted to succeed. They are decked out in rogue gear and have a full set of buffs and every consumable they can, in addition to having their raid group stacked for them.

As Quark said, that's not the usual or proper case. I have heard that BM and MM hunters are just about dead even for dps these days depending on who is in what group, and if the pet lives. Surv dps is still under those two.

I've seen some threads on EJ stating some of the opposite of what you've seen concerning BMs. Also, I didn't state that Survival would do as much, but I did state that they will have better synergy with the raid and their DPS isn't as bad as Quark makes it out to be.

But the point of the picture you are missing is that NONE of the three trees is even close to competitive with any other dps class (and several of the hybrids) without some serious effort put into it. Then, they are "competitive" with the low end of that class.

As Quark said, any class can top the meters, it depends on if you are willing to make the effort to get there or not. There are tools out there that can help a Hunter do more DPS and still have longevity the question is, are you willing to give up some of your AP and/or Crit to do it?

For a class that is supposed to be dps, that is BS. A well geared, buffed, leatherclad hunter can just keep up or outdo a half asleep rogue, mage, or warlock, if the latency gods are nice that night. That is more BS. It was/is bad enough that hunters, warriors and rogues are at each other's throats over weaponry. But now it's even worse as if hunter wants to be more than a blip on the DM, s/he needs rogue GEAR, too. In addition to slamming back Fel/Mana pots and/or haveing a pocket shadowpriest.

I dunno about you, but I've picked apart thottbot looking at gear, looking at items with sockets, and I've been able to put together, if luck holds on drops, so pretty damn good Mail gear without putting on a single piece of leather and was able to have enough +hit to never miss, over +30% crit (as Survival) unbuffed, and around 2k RAP with self buffs. The question becomes, is the Hunter willing to take the time and trouble to look for the gear and socket the gems that will help them or are they just wanting to get everything they can immediately.

Itemization is a huge problem. Tiers 4 and 5 are just about useless compared to other various blues and purples. Tier 6 (as announced) is some good steps in the right direction.

You do realize that this is the case for pretty much all classes? For most classes the Tier 4 and 5 sets suck. So this is nothing new that Hunters would see that their Tier 4 and 5 sets suck as well.

Also, the fights that I've been seeing a lot of folks post DM's on and saying "hunters are just fine" are Gruul fights where the hunter found a sweet spot they didn't have to move from for the entire length of the fight. That's also an artificial measuring stick. Anyone who can stand still and nuke away is going to do more than someone else who is constantly on the move, esp with hunter dps cycles being so click and latency dependant.

Movement affects more than just Hunters Mirajj. You atleast have more instant cast spells where you may only have to stop briefly to use. A Mage or Non-Affliction Warlock are in for the same damage loss if they have to move a lot as well, but unlike you, they're rooted in one location for 2.5s to 3.0s depending on which spell they're casting and what talents they may have to reduce cast time.

Another note...I never had mana problems on the Emps (Since I was only Aimed and auto'ing. I even had spare mana for Aspect switching, with mana left over at the end of the fight). Nor did I ever have mana problems on Nef. If I was getting low, just autoshot for a bit and/or take a pot. Problem solved. My dps was still (for the most part) competitive with the other classes.

Yes, but you didn't have to move much on those fights either. You also now have ways to get around some of that with the gem sockets, its up to you to choose if you want to give up some AP to regen mana at all times or not. We both realize that +spirit is mostly useless to the Hunter because the Hutner is constantly under the 5 second rule, but MP5, while you hate it, is still going to give you longevity.

A lot of folks say "if you have mana problems, downrank." Since hunter downranking has always scaled like utter shyt, this just gets worse with the changes in 2.1. Not that downranking was really an option, as moving down ranks dropped our already meager dps right into the gutter.

Again, the problem you're seeing, and this a problem that anyone that has to stay planted in a location for a few seconds to do DPS, is that movement is hurting you DPS. Few classes are not hurt on DPS by moving around a bunch, but most are.

So as you say, dps is becoming more important. If your dps isn't above this bar, you don't pass the fight. Having hunters in a raid is currently hurting a raids dps if you have more than 1. You may squeak by with 2, but that's pushing it. For a class that is a "Dps class", we aren't producing. Sure, we can produce in SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES, but those are just that, and are rare occurances, not the norm. This is the root of many hunters problems. We'd like more consistency. I do, for instance, very much like the changes to HM (as much as I dislike pvp, I do realize that it has to be taken into consideration) and changes like that are a good way to boost pve without doing too much damage to pvp.

No Mirajj, it's not "your" DPS, it's the "team's" DPS that is important. There's a big difference there. If the team is to succeed the DPS of the team needs to be maximized, this does not mean that every single DPSer has to be doing maximum DPS, but they do have to bring something to boost the DPS of the other team members. BM and Surivival do this, MM really doesn't.

We'd like to scale, too. Take Trueshot Aura, for instance. Can you tell me of any other skills that are almost class defining skills, obtained at lvl 40, that are unchanged at all still when you are lvl 70? It's the little things like this that have been niggling away at hunters for the last year or so, and just frusterating us. Many of us hoped that this patch would help a lot of the problems. It's hardly addressed any of them. Yay, BM does more. Yay, Surv does more. Soon they'll realize that no matter what they do, they can't even keep up, much less compete. Then they'll be at the point a lot of MM's are right now...feeling that their only spot on a raid is for a single pity skill (TSA, FI, or EW, pick your flavor) and realizing that's all they are brought along for.

First a nit, I wouldn't call TSA class defining in the least. TSA is a talent power and as such will depend on the taste of the player. A class definining skill is something that is part of the natural build of that class without taking talents into it.

Now, I have to disagree completely on scaling. You're looking at one or two specific skills that are not scaling, and one of those is a talent. If you look at what you have available to the hunter, just about everything scales whether you want to believe that or not. There was a time where Arcane Shot did not scale at all, now it does. And again, you missing the new mantra of raids in tBC, it's not about individial damage that some brings, but the damage of the team. If you can boost the team's damage, they even if your solo damage isn't up to par of some others, you will still get a spot because you benefit the team. BM and Survival have this, Marksman doesn't because it's always been about increasing the Hunter's solo power, not the team's power.

When I raid...I want to feel like a part of the team. I want to feel like I have contributed to the success my friends and I are partaking in. I want to know that if I put in the work to buff out the yinyang, work the consumables, and do a perfect shot rotation on a low ping night that it'll be reflected on the DM. I want to be excited when/if I see "mail" or "Class:Hunter" stuff drop.

Ok, let me pound this into your head, it's not about your damage, it's about the team's damage. Until you get the "me" out you're going to continue to feel this way. Pre-tBC you could get away with the "me", but that is not the way it is in tBC, now it's "team". If I raid led more often I wouldn't care as much about the individual damage of players as I would about the team's overall damage output. If you do say 800 DPS and the top damage dealers are doing 1300 DPS, I'm going to over look your 500 DPS drop if you are boosting other members of the raid by 300 and 400 DPS, cause that is effectively boosting the team's DPS instead of your own. So stop thinking it's all about your DPS, cause it's not, it's about the team's.

Right now...there are very few hunters feeling the above, which is why you are seeing a lot of the "old time" hunters disappear slowly. We feel like we are more a drag to a raid group than a help. I appreciate that my friends will take me on raids with them. I just wish that I could feel that they were doing it without my feeling I was gimping the raid by being along with them.

A lot of the old time Hunters need to realize that things have changed and that the world does not revolve around them (nor any other class). When you raid, you raid with a group of people in a team to accomplish a goal, you are not a group of individuals trying to achieve a common goal. The sooner people change this mindset, the sooner they will be happy. So stop thinking about "me" and starting thinking about "us".

[Treesh]

Ok, let me pound this into your head, it's not about your damage, it's about the team's damage. Until you get the "me" out you're going to continue to feel this way. Pre-tBC you could get away with the "me", but that is not the way it is in tBC, now it's "team". If I raid led more often I wouldn't care as much about the individual damage of players as I would about the team's overall damage output. If you do say 800 DPS and the top damage dealers are doing 1300 DPS, I'm going to over look your 500 DPS drop if you are boosting other members of the raid by 300 and 400 DPS, cause that is effectively boosting the team's DPS instead of your own. So stop thinking it's all about your DPS, cause it's not, it's about the team's.

And this is why there is a nice place for shaman in the end-game. We won't top damage meters or heal meters, but we sure can boost everyone else in the party.

[Mirajj]

Ok, all great, all knowing of hunters god Lissa, you have me convinced that I don't know anything at all about hunters. So, tell me what I'm doing wrong.

On a good night/fight, I consider it well done if I am able to maintain 750-800dps (with pet). That generally means I've been buffing well and am well potted, too. So, what can I bring to a raid that'll boost my teammates by 300-400dps so you, as RL, will feel I'm worth my spot. Hell, if I could boost folks by 300-400dps, I'd feel I was contributing too, though I'd not call myself a "dps class" but a support class.

Here's me in the Armory, in my usual Instance/Raid set: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#charact...rmrage&n=Mirajj

Here's a special tag with my spiffy stats: http://wow.tachyonsix.com.nyud.net:8080/ar.../53626HFsEm.png


So please tell me and guide me. What am I missing here? What could I change so that you, as RL, would view my 750 or so dps as valuable to the raid? What would, other than MD, make you want to bring me over a class (any of them) that can do 1300 dps without too much trouble? I really am truely curious.

I do admit that I'm also curious why you have no problem with turning a class that was once a dps class into a support class. Which is another problem hunters feel. If we can't do dps to keep up, why can't we help more and be called a 'support' class?

[Treesh]

Ok, all great, all knowing of hunters god Lissa, you have me convinced that I don't know anything at all about hunters. So, tell me what I'm doing wrong.

On a good night/fight, I consider it well done if I am able to maintain 750-800dps (with pet). That generally means I've been buffing well and am well potted, too. So, what can I bring to a raid that'll boost my teammates by 300-400dps so you, as RL, will feel I'm worth my spot. Hell, if I could boost folks by 300-400dps, I'd feel I was contributing too, though I'd not call myself a "dps class" but a support class.

Here's me in the Armory, in my usual Instance/Raid set: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#charact...rmrage&n=Mirajj

Here's a special tag with my spiffy stats: http://wow.tachyonsix.com.nyud.net:8080/ar.../53626HFsEm.png
So please tell me and guide me. What am I missing here? What could I change so that you, as RL, would view my 750 or so dps as valuable to the raid? What would, other than MD, make you want to bring me over a class (any of them) that can do 1300 dps without too much trouble? I really am truely curious.

Well, paperdoll-wise, sacrificing what you have to get your big RAP numbers, it still shows your DPS as only 279.3. GG's (since I know he is still topping damage charts) has him at 294.9 DPS. RAP isn't the end-all-be-all for hunters, even Marks. Mainly, it's a gear choice (even with the crappy itemization that Blizzard has) that's holding you back, just from looking at the armory. I won't even speculate on shot cycles and timing them well, or anything of that. Just plain paperdoll DPS, you're behind on gear despite having access to more gear. It may be time for a lot of hunters to rethink the whole "max RAP!" idea. We've seen it infect the hunters over on Terenas too and they can't keep up with GG on damage, despite the whole "I've got more RAP!" deal.

[Mirajj]

Well, paperdoll-wise, sacrificing what you have to get your big RAP numbers, it still shows your DPS as only 279.3. GG's (since I know he is still topping damage charts) has him at 294.9 DPS. RAP isn't the end-all-be-all for hunters, even Marks. Mainly, it's a gear choice (even with the crappy itemization that Blizzard has) that's holding you back, just from looking at the armory. I won't even speculate on shot cycles and timing them well, or anything of that. Just plain paperdoll DPS, you're behind on gear despite having access to more gear. It may be time for a lot of hunters to rethink the whole "max RAP!" idea. We've seen it infect the hunters over on Terenas too and they can't keep up with GG on damage, despite the whole "I've got more RAP!" deal.

Well, the RAP is slowly coming down. I used to have it pushed up over 2000 unbuffed. But then I started going for more +crit.

Trust me, I know shot cycles inside and out, and how to work them. Mainly with them, it's a lag thing. It's either happening or not happening. They aren't the rocket science some folks try to claim them to be.

I may have "more access" to gear, but that requires it to drop. In all the instancing I've done, I've seen one BL Piece drop (the gloves, which I won) and one Desolation piece drop (which the shaman I was with won). With the drops being random, one has to work with what one can hope to get (25 runs and I've never seen a Sonic Spear drop, for instance). Karazhan has been the nicest to me gear wise, so that's where a lot of my gear is earmarked from.