2.1.0 Patch Notes

[Pantalaimon]

Second potential "obvious"... do you include a five-sunder stack on the devastate? That's 5*35 (175) extra damage there. :)

Edit: Assuming you add 175 to MH (Which I'm guessing you need to do, based off his 800 crit remark), then 87 to OH, that's 369 (your #) + 262 = 631 per devastate, nearly as much as bloodthirst. And four times as often.

[Concillian]

Right, I messed up my calculations.

Devastate deals 50% damage. An average attack will therefore deal
(Weapon_Damage + (Normalized_Weapon_Speed * Attack_Power/14)/2 + 25

Using Mavfin's numbers as an example (and giving him an OH identical to the MH):

Main-hand: (2.6*71.7 + (2.4*1500/14))/2 + 25 = ~246
Off-hand: MH/2 = ~123

That'd be the average without crits, before armor... Unless I'm missing something completely obvious.:P

And Bloodthirst is 45% AP. That's ... 675 with the same numbers, even more with Improved Berserker Stance. Hm.

Nope, I still believe a 17/41/3 build would be superior.:P

you again missed battle shout and 1H spec. The most damage you'd add if you took this kind of spec for damage purposes would include commanding presence and DW spec. I'll use 400AP for battle shout, which isn't exactly right, but for illustrative purposes should be fine.

I'm not sure what the +25 is in your analysis, it's 35 per sunder and I just don't know where the 25 is from. It's +175 with a full sunder stack.

you can add around 2.4 * 1.1 400 / 14 + 246 * 0.1 = 100 main hand extra (346) for 12 rage = 28.8 damage per rage just using main hand.

off-hand is (2.6*71.7 + 2.4 * 1900 / 14 )* 0.5 * .625 = 160 add that to MH and it's ~42 damage per rage

These are the numbers with 0 sunders. 5 sunders adds 175 to the MH and brings the combined attack to 681 with damage per rage up to about 57.

compare to BT with rampage and berserker stance. About =80 AP due to the loss of vitality, but otherwise the same... (1900 - 70 + 250 ) * 1.1 * 0.45 = 1029 per 30 rage = ~34 damage per rage.

Devastate can be done every 1.5 seconds, provided you have enough rage... 454 DPS from rage (before armor, crits, dodge/parry).
BT can be done every 6 and you get a whirlwind every 12 (cooldown is 10 but you never want to lose out on a BT cooldown, so practicality makes it 12) So you get
(1029*2 + 2.6*71.7 + 2.4 * 1.1 * (1900 - 70 + 250)/14)/12 = 219 DPS from rage in the Fury build

White damage in prot is not all that far off of fury because of 1H spec. In my gear it's about 30-50 DPS difference in white damage or so, not nearly enough to make up for the yellow damage advantage prot would have if it went live with both hands.

As I said before, I estimate I'd gain 100-150 DPS by switching from fury to prot if the devastate gain went live.

Really, I don't pull these numbers from nowhere. I did the correct theorycraft before mentioning them.

[Walkiry]

Really, I don't pull these numbers from nowhere. I did the correct theorycraft before mentioning them.

Forgive me for intruding, but in general it's good to have this kind of theorycraft/discussion to have your numbers and calculations peer-reviewed. That's true here and everywhere :-)

[swirly]

Forgive me for intruding, but in general it's good to have this kind of theorycraft/discussion to have your numbers and calculations peer-reviewed. That's true here and everywhere :-)

While true, I'd like to point to a thread that conc has posted: Conc's Warrior DPS spreadsheets updated. I would assume he is using the same calculations that are used in that spreadsheet (obviously with any patch changes made). As such, I think he has made the calculations as available for peer review as he can. : )

[Walkiry]

While true, I'd like to point to a thread that conc has posted: Conc's Warrior DPS spreadsheets updated. I would assume he is using the same calculations that are used in that spreadsheet (obviously with any patch changes made). As such, I think he has made the calculations as available for peer review as he can. : )

True, but this' more centered around the upcoming changes, hence reviewing the numbers ain't bad since it's precisely about the updates to the spreadsheet, so to speak ;-)

[Taelas]

you again missed battle shout and 1H spec. The most damage you'd add if you took this kind of spec for damage purposes would include commanding presence and DW spec. I'll use 400AP for battle shout, which isn't exactly right, but for illustrative purposes should be fine.

Both specs will have them, and all things being equal, Fury will benefit more from Battle shout (via Improved Berserker Stance).

And you'll still miss out on Enrage, Flurry, Impale and Deep Wounds.

Regardless, the Battle shout buff simply doesn't matter for the purposes of the calculation; the AP in the example is speculative in the first place. It can be set to 100 or 10000, doesn't really matter.

I'm not sure what the +25 is in your analysis, it's 35 per sunder and I just don't know where the 25 is from. It's +175 with a full sunder stack.

Simple, it comes from me not thinking. My warrior's still using rank 2 Devastate, and it adds +25.:)
I also didn't realize it's supposed to be per application of Sunder Armor. The tooltip can be read either way. I'll assume your reading is correct though to be frank I'm not 100% certain.:)

you can add around 2.4 * 1.1 400 / 14 + 246 * 0.1 = 100 main hand extra (346) for 12 rage = 28.8 damage per rage just using main hand.

1.1*(2.6*71.7 + (2.4*1900/14))/2 = ~281

Devastate still only deals 50% damage.

That's 23.4 damage-per-rage.

off-hand is (2.6*71.7 + 2.4 * 1900 / 14 )* 0.5 * .625 = 160 add that to MH and it's ~42 damage per rage

Now you're forgetting One-Hand Weapon Specialization. 176 damage, total damage-per-rage = ~38

These are the numbers with 0 sunders. 5 sunders adds 175 to the MH and brings the combined attack to 681 with damage per rage up to about 57.

Hm, I think One-Hand Weapon Specialization should affect the +175. It should also be added to the off-hand. That's 281+(175*1.1) + 176+(175*1.1*.625) = ~769, and 64 damage-per-rage.

compare to BT with rampage and berserker stance. About =80 AP due to the loss of vitality, but otherwise the same... (1900 - 70 + 250 ) * 1.1 * 0.45 = 1029 per 30 rage = ~34 damage per rage.

Improved Berserker Stance is more effective than Vitality in that it affects total attack power and Vitality only affects strength. I'm not sure how you arrive at a *loss* in attack power from this.

Let's assume for sake of ease that all the attack power is from strength, save the buff, obviously. That means a total 1940 attack power in Berserker Stance and 1750 in Battle Stance. Also, what's that 1.1 modifier you've added?

(1940 + 250) * 0.45 = ~985 damage, ~32-33 damage-per-rage.

Devastate can be done every 1.5 seconds, provided you have enough rage... 454 DPS from rage (before armor, crits, dodge/parry).
BT can be done every 6 and you get a whirlwind every 12 (cooldown is 10 but you never want to lose out on a BT cooldown, so practicality makes it 12) So you get
(1029*2 + 2.6*71.7 + 2.4 * 1.1 * (1900 - 70 + 250)/14)/12 = 219 DPS from rage in the Fury build

Eh, what? There's plenty of time for global cooldown in between the Whirlwind and the second BT. No need for jumping through hoops like that.

White damage in prot is not all that far off of fury because of 1H spec. In my gear it's about 30-50 DPS difference in white damage or so, not nearly enough to make up for the yellow damage advantage prot would have if it went live with both hands.

You're completely disregarding Deep Wounds, which procs off both white and yellow damage.

As I said before, I estimate I'd gain 100-150 DPS by switching from fury to prot if the devastate gain went live.

Really, I don't pull these numbers from nowhere. I did the correct theorycraft before mentioning them.

And as I said before, that's not my estimation. You've neglected to regard crits at all--and the Fury build gets Deep Wounds, Impale and Flurry from crits. Protection gets nothing special. That's disregarding a major advantage.

[Concillian]

Forgive me for intruding, but in general it's good to have this kind of theorycraft/discussion to have your numbers and calculations peer-reviewed. That's true here and everywhere :-)

As Swirly said I've asked for feedback to my damage calcs, but Wimpy is the only one who has offered feedback (in-game, not on the forum).

[Concillian]

Both specs will have them, and all things being equal, Fury will benefit more from Battle shout (via Improved Berserker Stance).

And you'll still miss out on Enrage, Flurry, Impale and Deep Wounds.

Regardless, the Battle shout buff simply doesn't matter for the purposes of the calculation; the AP in the example is speculative in the first place. It can be set to 100 or 10000, doesn't really matter.

It does matter. Prot scales much better with AP up until it gets to the point where you can use rage every cooldown. Afterwards Fury scales better. Also, white damage scales slightly better with AP in a Fury build.

Deep wounds in a DW build isn't a huge deal. it's about 2% of total damage. Less than a 2H build because of the quick attacks (DW overwrites itself) and the lower MH weapon damage.

Improved Berserker Stance is more effective than Vitality in that it affects total attack power and Vitality only affects strength. I'm not sure how you arrive at a *loss* in attack power from this.

Let's assume for sake of ease that all the attack power is from strength, save the buff, obviously. That means a total 1940 attack power in Berserker Stance and 1750 in Battle Stance. Also, what's that 1.1 modifier you've added?

Whatever the attack power is with prot, it will be lower with Fury. The 250 is rampage, the 1.1 is imp. berserker.

Eh, what? There's plenty of time for global cooldown in between the Whirlwind and the second BT. No need for jumping through hoops like that.

Eventually you will end up doing a WW directly after a BT. At this point your BT cooldown will coincide with the WW cooldown. 12 seconds after BT, your BT will cooldown, and 11.5 seconds later WW will cooldown. At this poin thte proper thing to do for max damage is to BT instead of WW. At this point WW effectively becomes usable every 12 seconds, because it's always going to happen directly after a BT.

You're completely disregarding Deep Wounds, which procs off both white and yellow damage.
And as I said before, that's not my estimation. You've neglected to regard crits at all--and the Fury build gets Deep Wounds, Impale and Flurry from crits.

My white damage estimation do, in fact, take flurry into account. Deep wounds is a small factor that I ignore. I've found through empirical testing, it's around 2-3% of total on DW builds and 3-5% total on 2H.

[Taelas]

It does matter. Prot scales much better with AP up until it gets to the point where you can use rage every cooldown. Afterwards Fury scales better. Also, white damage scales slightly better with AP in a Fury build.

I tested in on my warrior. With little more than 1.2k attack power, I could Devastate every GCB and only after unlucky misses would I not have enough rage to keep spamming it.

Deep wounds in a DW build isn't a huge deal. it's about 2% of total damage. Less than a 2H build because of the quick attacks (DW overwrites itself) and the lower MH weapon damage.

Of course it scales worse than it would with a 2H build, but it's still significant damage. A 2% DPS increase is still substantial.

Whatever the attack power is with prot, it will be lower with Fury. The 250 is rampage, the 1.1 is imp. berserker.

...:unsure:

Okay, you're not making much sense. Let's say you have two different warriors. A has 0/20/41, B has 17/41/3.

A has 500 strength, granting 1000 AP. With Vitality, this becomes 550 strength, for a total of 1100 AP. He also has 500 AP from non-strength sources, for a grand total of 1600 AP.
B has the exact same stats, 500 strength and 500 AP. He gets 10% more from strength--for a total of 1100 AP from strength--as well as 10% more from the 500 AP--550 AP--for a grand total of 1650 AP.

It seems to me you're only counting the Improved Berserker Stance bonus when doing specials. It affects white damage as well, y'know.

Of course, this is only within Berserker stance, but as we are discussing DPS, there is no reason to consider Battle or Defensive stance, save for the occasional Overpower... which B has a much higher crit rate for.

Eventually you will end up doing a WW directly after a BT. At this point your BT cooldown will coincide with the WW cooldown. 12 seconds after BT, your BT will cooldown, and 11.5 seconds later WW will cooldown. At this poin thte proper thing to do for max damage is to BT instead of WW. At this point WW effectively becomes usable every 12 seconds, because it's always going to happen directly after a BT.

Yes, I thought of this almost immediately after I posted. You're right.

Assuming endless rage, of course.

My white damage estimation do, in fact, take flurry into account. Deep wounds is a small factor that I ignore. I've found through empirical testing, it's around 2-3% of total on DW builds and 3-5% total on 2H.

It's not a small factor. 2-3% more DPS is 2-3% Protection simply doesn't have. How can you ignore a DPS increase when discussing potential DPS builds?

[Concillian]

A has 500 strength, granting 1000 AP. With Vitality, this becomes 550 strength, for a total of 1100 AP. He also has 500 AP from non-strength sources, for a grand total of 1600 AP.
B has the exact same stats, 500 strength and 500 AP. He gets 10% more from strength--for a total of 1100 AP from strength--as well as 10% more from the 500 AP--550 AP--for a grand total of 1650 AP.

It seems to me you're only counting the Improved Berserker Stance bonus when doing specials. It affects white damage as well, y'know.

I'm not going into white damage here. Flurry makes white damage immensely more complex. Look at the Fury sheets and the prot sheets and you can see how I'm incorporating it into white damage. Needless to say I am factoring it in to the white damage calculations.

It's not a small factor. 2-3% more DPS is 2-3% Protection simply doesn't have. How can you ignore a DPS increase when discussing potential DPS builds?

Compared to 100 -150 DPS, 2-3 % is an order of magnitude different. I'll gladly drop 2-3% deep wounds to gain 10x that on being able to use rage more efficiently. It's a liability anyway... it tremendously hinders your ability to use Intim. shout in PvP and solo, and limits CC options when things go wrong in 5-mans. It's good damage per talent points, but if I can manage a build with good damage that doesn't have deep wounds, I definitely prefer not to have it. It's a prereq for impale, but it's actually better damage per talent point than impale. I'mpale is among the worst talents in all the trees for damage per talent point, but for some reason it looks really attractive to people.

[WimpySmurf]

-Alchemy
The chance of a discovery occurring while making potions has been
substantially increased.
Elixirs now stack in two categories, Battle (Offensive) and Guardian
(Defensive) Elixirs. You can only have one of each type of Elixir up
at a time. As a result Elixirs now stack with class abilities such as
"Arcane Intellect."
Elixirs now stack to 20.
Four new defensive elixirs have been added. Two are on trainers, oneand flew around
is in Halaa and one is in Cenarion Expedition.
- Profession UI now has a search field. Text that is entered into the
search field searches against item names, reagent names and item
levels (if you include a level). For instance you can type "Peace"
into the search field to see all of your recipes that use Peacebloom,
or type in "20-30" to see all of you level 20-30 recipes. This search
field only appears once you have more than 75 skill in your
profession.
- Profession UI now has a checkbox that allows you to search by only
items that you have the materials to make.
- You can now link recipes into chat. If you have chat input open and
you shift-click on one of your recipes in your profession UI then it
will put a link to that recipe with the reagents it requires to make
into chat.

So I've gotten on the PTR to see what's up with the Alchemy changes:

It appears the flask mats have been reduced to ~1/3 of their old costs. The reduction in buff is also ~66%.

The few I knew/could get to:

1) Flask of the Titans: +400HP, 7 Gromsblood, 3 Stonescale Eel, 1 Black Lotus
2) Flask of Supreme Power: +70 Spell Dmg, 7 Dreamfoil, 3 Mt. Silversage, 1 Block Lotus
3) Flask of Mighy Restoration: +25 mp5, 7 Dreaming Glory, 3 Mana Thistle, 1 Fel Lotus
4) Flask of Distilled Wisdom: 65 Int, 7 Dreamfoil, 3 Icecap, 1 Black Lotus

So Elixir of Major Defense is pretty much the only "Live" elixir that it's considered to be a Guardian Elixir.
The 4 new recipes are all Guardian recipes and provide:
1) Resilence
2) health & hp5
3) Spirit & Int
4) reduced incoming damage (ala Blessing of Sanctuary)


The "search" field is pretty handy as is the "have mats" check box. Though, they currently don't allow you to search for Guardian/Battle.

The ability to just link a recipe is pretty nifty. Clicking on it shows the mats and the potions ability, it'll also make any of the mats you don't have red in the popup.

Imbued prices are now 2G a stack of 5.

-WimpySmurf

EDIT: Major Defense is Guardian not Battle.

[Taelas]

So Elixir of Major Defense is pretty much the only "Live" elixir that it's considered to be a Battle Elixir.

Elixir of Major Defense is a Battle Elixir?:blink:

[WimpySmurf]

Elixir of Major Defense is a Battle Elixir?:blink:

oops, and corrected.

[Taelas]

oops, and corrected.

Ahh. That's a relief.

[lemekim]

I'm not going into white damage here. Flurry makes white damage immensely more complex. Look at the Fury sheets and the prot sheets and you can see how I'm incorporating it into white damage. Needless to say I am factoring it in to the white damage calculations.
Compared to 100 -150 DPS, 2-3 % is an order of magnitude different. I'll gladly drop 2-3% deep wounds to gain 10x that on being able to use rage more efficiently. It's a liability anyway... it tremendously hinders your ability to use Intim. shout in PvP and solo, and limits CC options when things go wrong in 5-mans. It's good damage per talent points, but if I can manage a build with good damage that doesn't have deep wounds, I definitely prefer not to have it. It's a prereq for impale, but it's actually better damage per talent point than impale. I'mpale is among the worst talents in all the trees for damage per talent point, but for some reason it looks really attractive to people.

On the Devastate change - it actually will not make it to live anyway:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...eNo=8&sid=1#149

[NiteFox]

Ouch.

[Concillian]

Yeah, that didn't last...

Devastate change was already removed from the patch notes listed at this address:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/...patchnotes.html

People are now noting that Devastate is back to adding off-hand damage on the PTR.

Apparently the initial implementation was giving the sunder bonus to BOTH HANDS and was not reducing the off-hand sunder bonus at all, so damage output was totally insane. In the warrior forums I saw someone with two screenshots, one of DPSing in an instance in tanking gear with about 800 AP and 12% crit averaging 400 DPS for the run. Another was the same warrior in more DPS oriented gear soloing the start of the netherwing quest line showing a >900 DPS average over 50k+ total damage.

Current reports are that it is now working on the PTR as we had assumed it had been working in the discussion here (no sunder bonus on the off-hand, only weapon damage * 0.5 * (0.5 * 1.x) * 1.y where x = bonus from DW spec and y is the bonus from 1H spec. I've downloaded the client, but my character transfer is still pending, so I can't verify yet.

[Legedi]

I feel like I'm being jerked around so much. Just before 2.1 test notes where released I almost enchanted my OH dagger. Then with the devaste changes I first heard about I held off, thinking I'd need to get a slower OH. Then they took the changes out, and I almost enchanted it again a few days ago. Moral of the story, I'm not doing anything with my OH weapon until 2.1 hits the live servers.

These changes are still to late for me in the most part though. I already leveled my mage to 70 and got him an epic flying mount to farm with. But it would still be fun for fights like Aran and such.

[Zarathustra]

Druids now have a separate toolbar in Moonkin, just like other forms.

Granted... I found this meant nothing for me. The only difference was replacing my HoT spells with macros that shift me out of Moonkin and then cast them.

[Mavfin]

Current reports are that it is now working on the PTR as we had assumed it had been working in the discussion here (no sunder bonus on the off-hand, only weapon damage * 0.5 * (0.5 * 1.x) * 1.y where x = bonus from DW spec and y is the bonus from 1H spec. I've downloaded the client, but my character transfer is still pending, so I can't verify yet.

Keshi's on PTR. I will check this out tonight (if I can) and report back. I have 1500ish ap, 20% crit dw/dps gear, and of course tank gear with about 1000 ap, so I'll try both out.

Edit: Did some testing. Even with a fast 1.6 offhand (Stormreaver Warblades, fairly low damage range), devastate was still adding ~75 damage to each devastate. Constant, no adjustment for sunder, as you said. +75 a pop on a spammable ability is quite a bit, really, and that makes me think it'll go up quite a bit if I get a slower/higher damage range offhand.

(it shows in combat log as two devastates each time you spam it, mh/oh pretty obvious to see)