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Quote:This is plain and simply wrong. Passive uncrushability is very valid for any race -- especially with the ZA/badge gear from 2.3.
Passive uncrushable is attainable for anyone in a mix of T5, ZA and badge gear. It is not even hard.
It's attainable, but you give up a lot of health in doing so. As I said, Skan and I discussed this a bit and it was only seen as possible with T6 gear (Hyjal/BT) and even then, in order to attain it, non-Tauren Warriors would have to sacrifice a good deal of health (as I seem to remember and Skan can correct me on this, I asked Skan if any of the CM Warriors were trying this and his basic response was no, they'd have to give up too much health). This was talked about several months ago, probably around August or September on the EJ boards and people were discussing how Nihilium's main tank could pull it off and everyone agreed that it was only really possible due to him being Tauren as non-Taurens couldn't give up the necessary stamina to get passive uncrushability. That 5% health difference allowed him to get non-stamina enchants (like the +defense to bracers) and go with Purple and Green (to get some stamina with either defense, parry, dodge, block, str, or agi) gems to try and get socket bonuses (even more avoidance) as well that non-Tauren Warriors were having to look at mostly solids to maximize stamina.
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And it's apparently not enough of a difference for Blizzard to worry about it.
If it's really such a huge, massive issue, roll Horde.
ArrayPaladins were not meant to sit in the back of the raid staring at health bars all day, spamming heals and listening to eight different classes whine about buffs.[/quote]
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Quote:Just the opposite. It's a health bonus, not a stamina bonus. It is applied after everything, and thus scales with even normally non-scaling health buffs (such as Flasks).
I'm still trying to figure out where this becomes a "massive advantage" compared to other racials. Yes it gives a tauren maintank a bit more of a health pool for those oh shi...moments. But we're still talking about on average a thousand or so hit points when the raiding game is filled with bosses that hit for 6 to 10 times that. No one is screaming about the additional 1% dodge that night elven tanks have to completely negate all incoming damage. Nor is anyone talking about a undead tank who can negate fear mechanics in defensive stance - and yes I now that fear no longer drops aggro but if you can't see why being feared and beat on is a bad thing剢 then there isn't much more to discuss. There are other tank racials that I could go into detail about but the bottom line is that in the TBC raid environment an extra 5% health just doesn't seem to be as massive a bonus to me.
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Quote:It's attainable, but you give up a lot of health in doing so. As I said, Skan and I discussed this a bit and it was only seen as possible with T6 gear (Hyjal/BT) and even then, in order to attain it, non-Tauren Warriors would have to sacrifice a good deal of health (as I seem to remember and Skan can correct me on this, I asked Skan if any of the CM Warriors were trying this and his basic response was no, they'd have to give up too much health). This was talked about several months ago, probably around August or September on the EJ boards and people were discussing how Nihilium's main tank could pull it off and everyone agreed that it was only really possible due to him being Tauren as non-Taurens couldn't give up the necessary stamina to get passive uncrushability. That 5% health difference allowed him to get non-stamina enchants (like the +defense to bracers) and go with Purple and Green (to get some stamina with either defense, parry, dodge, block, str, or agi) gems to try and get socket bonuses (even more avoidance) as well that non-Tauren Warriors were having to look at mostly solids to maximize stamina.
Passive uncrushable is attainable and viable even in T5 instances (it revolves around shield block rating). It is not something you use on every fight due to the Effective Health loss, but it is viable -- and for every race.
I spend every day talking about stuff like this, with people who have achieved it -- without ever setting foot in Hyjal or Black Temple.
Quote:If it's really such a huge, massive issue, roll Horde.
That's not a solution, that's a punchline.
Quote:I'm still trying to figure out where this becomes a "massive advantage" compared to other racials. Yes it gives a tauren maintank a bit more of a health pool for those oh shi...moments. But we're still talking about on average a thousand or so hit points when the raiding game is filled with bosses that hit for 6 to 10 times that. No one is screaming about the additional 1% dodge that night elven tanks have to completely negate all incoming damage. Nor is anyone talking about a undead tank who can negate fear mechanics in defensive stance - and yes I now that fear no longer drops aggro but if you can't see why being feared and beat on is a bad thing剢 then there isn't much more to discuss. There are other tank racials that I could go into detail about but the bottom line is that in the TBC raid environment an extra 5% health just doesn't seem to be as massive a bonus to me.
1% dodge is all well and good, and next after Tauren, it certainly is the most powerful tank racial (especially due to the way it scales). But it's not in the Tauren's league.
Fear is not an issue because every warrior who knows how to stance-dance can negate it -- and that's without considering Fear Ward. In the big scheme of things, when it comes to tanking, Will of the Forsaken is rather lackluster.
Next after Tauren and Night Elves, humans and orcs have the best racials for tanks -- Expertise. It is a quite signficiant threat increase, one which tauren and night elves cannot hope to match -- but threat is not as much of an issue as EH is.
If Norrath had Tauren health bonus, it would basically be equivalent to two Flasks of Fortification when he is fully raid buffed. Without actually using any. No, as I said before, it's not gamebreaking, but it gives Tauren a marked advantage when you talk about progression.... for no good reason at all that I can see.
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Quote:No more AR + Prep in 2.3.2:
It's really too bad you have to give up all the tasty mid-combat talents to get Shadowstep. I'd love to try raiding with it and still be competitive.
By the time Blizzard is done messing with one talent trying to fix the deficiencies of an entire tree, Shadowstep in itself will do everything - heal you, make you faster, teleport you, revive your teammates - except actually let you be able to kill someone.
Trade yourself in for the perfect one. No one needs to know that you feel you've been ruined!
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12-14-2007, 07:44 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-14-2007, 07:46 PM by Lissa.)
Quote:Passive uncrushable is attainable and viable even in T5 instances (it revolves around shield block rating). It is not something you use on every fight due to the Effective Health loss, but it is viable -- and for every race.
I spend every day talking about stuff like this, with people who have achieved it -- without ever setting foot in Hyjal or Black Temple.
I'm not talking about specific fights, I'm talking about all fights. Only Tauren can achieve uncrushable on every single fight with T6 gear and not give up the health to attain it. For a non-Tauren to achieve uncrushable on every fight, they would have to give up on the order of 1k to 1.5k health, for Tauren, this is a non-issue due to their racial. The difference here is that you're thinking of only specific fights while the main tank of Nilihum was setting up to do it for all fights and this is what the discussion several months back on EJ was all about and what I'm talking about. Non-Tauren Warriors cannot achieve passive uncrushable at all times without sacrificing a lot of health and that is what I've been talking about (and my discussion with Skan a few months back when I saw the thread on EJ).
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Quote:I'm not talking about specific fights, I'm talking about all fights. Only Tauren can achieve uncrushable on every single fight with T6 gear and not give up the health to attain it. For a non-Tauren to achieve uncrushable on every fight, they would have to give up on the order of 1k to 1.5k health, for Tauren, this is a non-issue due to their racial. The difference here is that you're thinking of only specific fights while the main tank of Nilihum was setting up to do it for all fights and this is what the discussion several months back on EJ was all about and what I'm talking about. Non-Tauren Warriors cannot achieve passive uncrushable at all times without sacrificing a lot of health and that is what I've been talking about (and my discussion with Skan a few months back when I saw the thread on EJ).
There is no reason to go uncrushable on all fights. There are bosses that do not crush, for example, and there are other fights where crushes aren't the main factor to watch out for.
No end-game warrior wears the same setup for every single fight in the game. It doesn't happen.
Passive uncrushable is a set of gear you put together and use on fights where it is a benefit, just like a resistance set. You do not wear it all the time, as there's no point.
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Quote:Fear is not an issue because every warrior who knows how to stance-dance can negate it -- and that's without considering Fear Ward. In the big scheme of things, when it comes to tanking, Will of the Forsaken is rather lackluster.
Yes they can negate it as I said above. Thing is with WotF you can negate it in defensive stance. No worries about mistiming the 'zerker switch and getting stomped. No worries about bossmod timers being off, etc. Just pop and go.
Quote:No, as I said before, it's not gamebreaking, but it gives Tauren a marked advantage when you talk about progression.... for no good reason at all that I can see.
*sigh* I guess given our past interaction on the subject of the viability druid tanks I should have seen that no matter what, gods be damned, you won't see any other side than the one you want to see.
If you think 1k life difference between a Tauren MT and a non-tauren MT is such an advantage I won't dissuade you. I think its a nice racial that fits the lore of the race and chances are if your 20k MT is getting wafflestomped in a raid he'd get wafflestomped at 21k too.
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Quote:It's attainable, but you give up a lot of health in doing so. As I said, Skan and I discussed this a bit and it was only seen as possible with T6 gear (Hyjal/BT) and even then, in order to attain it, non-Tauren Warriors would have to sacrifice a good deal of health (as I seem to remember and Skan can correct me on this, I asked Skan if any of the CM Warriors were trying this and his basic response was no, they'd have to give up too much health).
Well, I don't really recall discussing Tauren at all. It's true that neither of our warriors are going for passive uncrushability, partly because of the health drop (~2k) and partly because getting crushed just isn't really a huge deal in T6 content. The last two bosses of Hyjal and the last two out of three bosses in BT can't crush, mostly because they hit so hard that crushes would be on the order of 13k to 15k for a single hit (or in the case of Illidan, because he attacks very, very quickly and you have to save shield block for Shear). What matters when a boss hits really hard but can't crush is making sure you survive and avoid spikes. The best way to do that is stamina to absorb spikes, and expertise to avoid parry-bombs.
A passive-uncrushable set should be useful in T5 content, though, especially with ZA gear. It would probably be better than most alternatives for, say, Al'ar and Karathress, where damage spikes only really occur through crushes. Obviously if someone can pull it off without dipping below 21k hp, I guess you could wear it all the time, but again, if you can do that, you should be able to get even more hp for all those bosses that can't crush.
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12-14-2007, 09:18 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-14-2007, 09:22 PM by Lissa.)
Quote:Well, I don't really recall discussing Tauren at all. It's true that neither of our warriors are going for passive uncrushability, partly because of the health drop (~2k) and partly because getting crushed just isn't really a huge deal in T6 content. The last two bosses of Hyjal and the last two out of three bosses in BT can't crush, mostly because they hit so hard that crushes would be on the order of 13k to 15k for a single hit (or in the case of Illidan, because he attacks very, very quickly and you have to save shield block for Shear). What matters when a boss hits really hard but can't crush is making sure you survive and avoid spikes. The best way to do that is stamina to absorb spikes, and expertise to avoid parry-bombs.
A passive-uncrushable set should be useful in T5 content, though, especially with ZA gear. It would probably be better than most alternatives for, say, Al'ar and Karathress, where damage spikes only really occur through crushes. Obviously if someone can pull it off without dipping below 21k hp, I guess you could wear it all the time, but again, if you can do that, you should be able to get even more hp for all those bosses that can't crush.
If I remember the conversation correctly, I made a comment about how Nihilum's main tank was getting uncrushable without shield block and you said something to the effect that because he's Tauren he could achieve that and still maintain a high health which was part of the reason CM's Warriors weren't looking to do the same thing (because of the racial for Taurens allowing them to not need quite as much stamina to achieve the same health level). And as you noted above, it's a lot of health a non-Tauren would loss to pull it off and it looked like Nihilum's MT was trying to effectively wear a single set of gear for all non-resistance fights thus being able to survive the non-crush spike damage, crush spike damage with passive crush protection, and still have a high DR in a single set of T6 armor (which non-Taurens Warriors will require two to three sets of armor to deal with all those situations) gear which wasn't possible in T5 armor.
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Quote:Yes they can negate it as I said above. Thing is with WotF you can negate it in defensive stance. No worries about mistiming the 'zerker switch and getting stomped. No worries about bossmod timers being off, etc. Just pop and go.
I didn't say it was useless, I said it was lackluster.
Quote:*sigh* I guess given our past interaction on the subject of the viability druid tanks I should have seen that no matter what, gods be damned, you won't see any other side than the one you want to see.
That's entirely unfair. The fact that you haven't come up with an argument that convinces me does not mean I reject arguments out of hand.
Quote:If you think 1k life difference between a Tauren MT and a non-tauren MT is such an advantage I won't dissuade you. I think its a nice racial that fits the lore of the race and chances are if your 20k MT is getting wafflestomped in a raid he'd get wafflestomped at 21k too.
1k health is NOT insignificant on any level of content. Feel free to dismiss it if you must, but I consider the fact that Tauren can get what amounts to two additional Flasks to be too much.
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12-14-2007, 10:06 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-14-2007, 10:08 PM by Frag.)
Please continue this conversation respectfully and with facts on both sides. That's not an admonishment, it's a interested request. I want to see where this goes as I'm worried that when WotlK shows up that if I don't roll a Tauren DK I'll be gimped again (My MT was a sexy troll) if I spec him Cold/Unholy to tank.
Cheers,
~Frag B)
Edit: Though perhaps in a different thread? Gogo hijack.
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I still fail to see how my extra HP is vastly, hugely superior to your additional mitigation or Expertise. If I eat a parry bomb because my Expertise wasn't as high as a Human's, I've just lost a hell of a lot more HP than my little ~1k bonus.
Your argument is just a bunch of whining nonsense to my ears; if this was a serious issue, Blizzard would have addressed it long ago: very likely before TBC even arrived.
And it's not my fault you chose the wrong faction:)
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Quote:Please continue this conversation respectfully and with facts on both sides. That's not an admonishment, it's a interested request. I want to see where this goes as I'm worried that when WotlK shows up that if I don't roll a Tauren DK I'll be gimped again (My MT was a sexy troll) if I spec him Cold/Unholy to tank.
Cheers,
~Frag B)
Edit: Though perhaps in a different thread? Gogo hijack.
If they keep with lore (haha) DKs will be Humans and Orcs (possible in Human bodies).
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Quote:If they keep with lore (haha) DKs will be Humans and Orcs (possible in Human bodies).
A Blue Post and WoWiki page that cites the Blizzcon & Leipzig responses to that question. Plans are for all races to have the option of being tempted to follow the dark path. Due to appearance and/or interest I'd prefer to play a Troll or Orc, leaning towards Orc. I'm jumping ahead and assuming I'm going to be able to do some tanking duties again on him and if that's the case, I'm fretting about being on of the 'gimped' races for tanking Horde-side again.
Cheers,
~Frag :unsure:
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Quote:I still fail to see how my extra HP is vastly, hugely superior to your additional mitigation or Expertise. If I eat a parry bomb because my Expertise wasn't as high as a Human's, I've just lost a hell of a lot more HP than my little ~1k bonus.
That won't happen often enough to make up for your health bonus.
Quote:Your argument is just a bunch of whining nonsense to my ears; if this was a serious issue, Blizzard would have addressed it long ago: very likely before TBC even arrived.
Blizzard has made mistakes in the past and taken very long to correct them... and this has only become a serious issue with the current health totals.
Quote:And it's not my fault you chose the wrong faction:)
Like I said -- that's not an argument. That's a punchline. There is no "wrong faction", or at the very least, there should be none.
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Quote:and if that's the case, I'm fretting about being on of the 'gimped' races for tanking Horde-side again.
And as we've told you repeatedly, that "gimp" troll is all in your mind, nooblet.
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Quote:1k health is NOT insignificant on any level of content. Feel free to dismiss it if you must, but I consider the fact that Tauren can get what amounts to two additional Flasks to be too much.
As an alliance raiding main tank I reject your 1k hp argument.
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The only racial I'd like to see modified some is Diplomacy. Since you almost have to grind rep to turn in a circle these days, that additional rep is a big help.
Though, with the overall changes to rep, it's not as bad as it used to be...so, in the end it all washes out anyhow.
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Quote:Your argument is just a bunch of whining nonsense to my ears; if this was a serious issue, Blizzard would have addressed it long ago: very likely before TBC even arrived.
And it's not my fault you chose the wrong faction:)
Replace "1k Health" with "Fear Ward", swap alliance and horde, and travel back about six months. The quote here would be directed at you, you would not enjoy it, but it would be no less valid (and likely untrue). Saying something is balanced because Blizzard ignored it is... well, silly.
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