Patch 2.4 Notes

[Skandranon]

I see the badge vendor as being the same. Just make the bigger boss mobs drop more, and the elite will get the gear they want faster (in addition to getting to still play the RNG game, effectively doubling their lootsets) while those aren't quite as good for whatever reason, can plod along (in Heroics/Kara) and eventually end up with some nice shinies, too.

Well, for one thing, there aren't badges on the 25-man bosses. You can say, "if x, you're wrong"; but x isn't true, so you don't really have a point there.

I love the idea of a vendor for loot because the RNG really does screw people. We just completed our first Warglaive set...after four months of Illidan kills. Six months of Gurtogg Bloodboil and we still haven't seen his cape. So on and so forth. The problem I have with it is Badges of Justice, because you can get them from Heroics and Karazhan.

Merely putting badges on 25-man raid bosses doesn't fix it, because for incentive purposes you have to count them against the fact that Kara is 22 badges, requires no additional learning or consumables, only needs ten people, and gets proportionately way easier and faster to clear with better gear. Even if they slapped four badges on each SSC boss, making it 24, Kara would still give better returns, since you have to learn SSC and you don't have to learn Kara.

And again, this hits people with limited playtime hardest. They can't afford to spend that time on badgeless learning time, because you need to foresee an equivalent period of farming to make up the overhead time lost by doing that. They have to use their time farming Kara.

I've long thought that folks are much too worried about what others are doing in this game. Does it really matter?

Sure does. This is bad design. It means that people won't see a lot of content. I sincerely believe this means lower-end raiders will have less fun. Isn't that worth talking about?

[RTM]

A blizzard poster posted it on their forums. Link here.

Ah, ok. Thanks!

[Warlock]

It has the first 5-man to be patched in since dire maul. I'm tempted to return for it.

I don't see the harm in small group PVE being able to obtain a couple of pieces of tier behind leading edge gear. So their T6 weapon comes from heroics instead of arena. Hopefully the new 5-man will provide a decent challenge for geared-past-heroics players.

[Skandranon]

Anytime Blizzard releases new content, it obsoletes some other content unless they do something to not obsolete it. It happened when people got into SSC and TE and made Gruul and Magtheridon pretty much obsolete once they got in. Once people got into Hyjal and BT, they pretty much stopped going to SSC/TE (how many times has CM gone into SSC and TE since you guys got full access to Hyjal and BT except to get someone attuned?).

Once again, I think there's a difference of definition over the term "obsolete". Older content doesn't become obsolete once you're past it just because you stop running it. In the current patch, SSC and TK are not obsolete, because you still run them before you run BT/Hyjal, in the same way that everyone cleared BWL before AQ40. And I'm not going to lie - attunements are a big reason to do that. But even if the attunements were gone, running SSC and TK would still make sense to gear up for T6 content. That's not obsolete. At the Tier 5 level of progression, you have SSC, TK, and ZA, all of which offer comparable rewards for comparable difficulty. That's good design.

Dropping SSC/TK for BT/Hyjal is just progression. It's how guilds are supposed to go; you move on, you leave old content behind. The vendors are prompting rejection of everything, and instead, running Karazhan, oldest of old content. That's what's out of whack.

What I see as more of the problem here is people are going to rush into Sunwell after getting this badge gear and then claim that the fights are too hard even though they have the gear and the people that have been conqueorring he content up to this will get through the content in Sunwell and wonder why people are whining. Then it will be, will Blizzard dumb down the encounters because of the people without skill, but with the equipment are whining that they can't deal with the encounters because they don't have the necessary skill.

This is an excellent point and one that I was going to raise myself. It's the phat lewtz theory of gravity: better loot attracts all players equally. People who never, ever have a chance at the skill or coordination required to get into Sunwell will run Karazhan for six more months, gear up, hit Sunwell and die and die and die. Instead of training in lower content, they'll just quit. People who could have at least gone 5/6, 3/4, seen some content, had fun raiding, now will see about the first boss in Sunwell and have no fun at all.

Isn't that a problem?

[RTM]

According to some screenshots from Worldofraids.com, the badge loot we're talking about here doesn't look like it takes Badges of Justice.

[Taelas]

Well, I think we're using obsolete in different contexts. For example, pre-TBC, BWL loot never became obsolete. Sure, T3 was better piece-for-piece, but it wasn't obsolete because for the appropriate level of progression, BWL loot was the best available to boost you to the next level. Gear isn't automatically obsolete just because something better exists.

That's not what I'm saying.

It's going to become obsolete because WotLK is on the horizon.

If people were to start running SSC/TK when 2.4 hits, they might get to mid-Hyjal/BT before WotLK. By skipping SSC/TK in progression, you're giving the "new" raiders the opportunity to experience the end-game content (Archimonde, Illidan and Kil'jaeden, mainly) before WotLK hits.

[Skandranon]

According to some screenshots from Worldofraids.com, the badge loot we're talking about here doesn't look like it takes Badges of Justice.

The Badge of Justice vendor hasn't been revealed yet, probably because he is locked away behind a later stage of the Shattered Sun Offensive. These screenshots show above-t6 quality loot, ilvl151-161; these are, in fact, the drops from Sunwell bosses, but tokenized so as to avoid RNG screwage (something which, as I said, the raiding game desperately needs). World of Raids has incorrectly labelled this the "badge vendor" when it clearly isn't.

Drysc specifically said that there would be a badge vendor offering T6 quality loot. I'm sure it'll come out within the next couple days.

[Skandranon]

That's not what I'm saying.

It's going to become obsolete because WotLK is on the horizon.

If people were to start running SSC/TK when 2.4 hits, they might get to mid-Hyjal/BT before WotLK. By skipping SSC/TK in progression, you're giving the "new" raiders the opportunity to experience the end-game content (Archimonde, Illidan and Kil'jaeden, mainly) before WotLK hits.

Ah. You know, that's a good point, one I hadn't considered. Maybe because I don't really see WotLK as close, at least not in the sense that TBC was close to Naxx. But I don't think it really affects my argument that much. Sure, if you look at it as, either you get SSC/TK or BT/Sunwell, it looks good. And of course, I'm not against letting people experience Archimonde, Illidan, or Kil'jaeden.

But it isn't like that. Because your average Kara-killing guild can start on TK/SSC, right away. And when WotLK finally hits (think Oct-Nov-ish, the F&F Alpha hasn't even begun yet), they may be, as you say, about halfway through BT/Hyjal. More likely they'll have completed Hyjal and be about 4-5 bosses into BT (5/5, 4/9 is pretty common because of how easily it is to hurl yourself at Archimonde). The guild gearing up for Sunwell through badges is going to do...Karazhan. And more Karazhan. Remember, the time limit applies equally and must by definition count the badge-farming time.

If they're inclined, and that's a big if, they'll probably be able to score 4/5, 3/9, after their farming time is complete. More likely they will hammer themselves at Sunwell and maybe pass the first guy who's a gear check and then wipe endlessly on the first overall skill tester. And then Wrath of the Lich King will loom close and kill off all desire to raid. It's not as easy as trading Kael and Vashj for Illidan, Archimonde and Kil'jaeden.

[Skandranon]

I have a bit different of a take on this. Your argument was basically the same argument I heard from a lot of people when the T5-level badge gear was added. People were saying "No one is going to bother to raid SSC and TK because Karazhan will be clearly better for reward per time." But that is definitely not what I have seen, since then. The groups that want to do the 25-man raids are still raiding, they're just doing it with better gear (via badges) which allows everyone a bit more margin for error.

Well, I didn't make that argument when the ZA badge vendors went on. I thought it was a good thing. Now, Bolty's right about attunements and the pressure they applied to keep running TK/SSC. But it isn't the whole story.

There are key differences between T5 level badge gear additions and T6 level badge gear additions. For one thing, the T5 ones were sidegrades to SSC/TK loot. They didn't invalidate any of it. In many cases, they covered gaping loot holes in the T5 instances (see Studious Wraps, covering for the fact that T5 cloth caster dps gloves are uniformly horrendous, and that Kael has an incredibly badly itemized piece for the same slot). Notably, they had huge, carefully designed holes themselves, and the important one there was weapons. You couldn't get a good weapon out of badges. That meant that you had to raid, and while ZA has some nice weapons, SSC/TK by far are still the best PvE way to arm up for further PvE content - especially with the 1850 personal rating addition to arena weapons in the same patch.

Drysc clearly confirms the presence of weapons on the vendor this time around, meaning that out is no longer available. Furthermore, BT and Hyjal loot have no large itemization failures that badges need to cover for.

Now let's look at what did happen. What wound up getting obsoleted by T5 badge loot?

That's right. Badge-less T4. If not for the DST, people wouldn't run Gruul at all; few enough do nowadays, anyway. And absolutely nobody does Magtheridon nowadays. The 2.4 changes are a desperate attempt to get people to do the fight again, don't think that Blizzard isn't paying attention. Magtheridon fell completely off the radar because he required focus, consumables, learning time, and doesn't drop badges, making him zero-percent progress toward a T5 epic. People responded to their incentives, and a raider starting right this second will probably never see Magtheridon. And don't think for a second that this cannot or will not happen to T5.

Sidegrades don't obsolete content. Upgrades do.

[Skandranon]

So the easy fix in my mind is add a new badge type or add badges to the 25 man bosses. I like badges for smoothing out the RNG. My warrior had 2 pieces of badge gear that replaced blues because despite being in Kara, ZA, and SSC a fair bit where replacements could have dropped they never did drop. Having an option to fix that issue was very nice.

I like this idea as well. Part of the problem with BT/Hyjal loot is its sheer completeness. There is loot available for every possible spec of every possible class, with the result that BT/Hyjal loot tables are very cluttered, and it's difficult to get multiple copies of the one good item that you want. Badge vendors can be a good solution to this problem, but they have to be implemented in a manner that actually incentivizes running the raid instance, as opposed to a manner that incentivizes running something older and easier.

So why not if you are adding a new badge have the SSC/TK bosses drop one of the new badges and one of the old badges. Incentive to keep learning what you don't have done in there at the same time it's helping flatten the gear curve if you are learning it. BT/Hyjal can drop just badges you need for the T6 gear. The doesn't have you jumping to Sunwell right away. But it does make life easier. You can make Vashj and Kael drop a lot of badges to make them really worth hitting so that the tough content still has incentives. If the other bosses only drop 1 and 1 you can make Vashj and Kael drop 4 each. If the average badge cost for an item is 50 badges that is still more than 2 full clears of both instances to get 1 item. That doesn't seem to out of whack to me. Though if you make the Hjyal/BT stuff drop 2 of the T6 badges each that still might pull you out of SSC/TK too fast. But it shouldn't have you jumping to Sunwell right away.

I think these are very good ideas. My central point, and one which I think you've understood more than others, is this. Exploring new places, seeing new boss fights, learning them as a raid group, and beating them as a team - that is fun. Upgrading your own gear, seeing your own character progress, the feeling of moving forward and becoming more powerful - that is also fun.

Any well-designed raiding system must set its incentives up such that you are strongly incentivized to do both of these, so you get the fun of exploring content and the fun of progress. Putting T6 gear on badge vendors doesn't do this. It sets up incentives at cross-purposes: you must choose to either have the fun of exploring new places or the fun of getting better gear. And you do have to choose, unless you're hardcore. If you're hardcore, this doesn't matter to you - and, as a personal note, I have to say: this doesn't matter to me, because I am hardcore. But if you're more casual, if you have limited playtime - and by far most players are in this category - you do have to make a choice about which kind of fun you like more. You can't have both, because you don't have time for both.

Why should you have to choose?

[Mirajj]

The guild gearing up for Sunwell through badges is going to do...Karazhan. And more Karazhan. Remember, the time limit applies equally and must by definition count the badge-farming time.

And what does that guild do with the rest of their playing time? Kara can be done in 4 hours, so one night, tops. That tends to leave (even most casual guilds do 2-3 raiding nights) at least 1 more night if not 2 for something else. It's not like Kara resets at every zone in or every. It's a once a week thing.

Take Avarice, for example. Even if we were crazy enough to move Kara into our progression track on the theory that we'd need as many badges as possible...that'd only take some of us 1/2 of a night (2 hours) and a couple others possibly four hours. Then we are left with 2 more raiding nights. Our progress would be slowed due to the loss of a night, but it wouldn't be stopped.

Now, if Kara takes you a full lock to do in the first place, you probably aren't thinking (in any terms of accessiblity) of any 25man end game raiding anyhow.

[TheDragoon]

Ok, reading through your post, I think we might be making different points. :) You are making the point that people will skip SSC and TK to hit Hyjal and BT because the incentive isn't there. I was making the point that people will happily go to Hyjal and BT to see that content despite the fact that there are badge gears that are comparable to that and if they are really interested in seeing the content, then they will go through SSC and TK a bit, too. I know raiding groups that are currently happy to go kill Magtheridon once or twice (to get their title) and then move on to SSC and TK. So I still think that there will be room for people to go back and see content that doesn't necessarily give as many upgrades.

The way things are, now, people are very happy to go back to Karazhan for badges, so it gets run weekly. People want to hit Gruul because he drops some very unique items (a certain melee trinket...), so he gets run. People don't really care about Magtheridon besides for the title, so you don't see as much of him, though many groups DO kill him once to say that they did.

In 2.4, I expect people will go and hit the easier bosses in SSC and TK to say they did it and move on. They might also go to kill Vashj and Kael'thas once or twice each to open up the ring rewards in Hyjal and get the next title. But then people will move on to Hyjal and BT... and I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing.


Perhaps I'm a bit jaded because the way this is working out is perfect for my raiding group. We're currently 5/6 and 3/4 in SSC and TK, so we just have to look at Vashj and Kael'thas, right now. We'll work on them until 2.4 comes out, and then likely move into Hyjal and BT to see some of that. But I have a feeling we'll go back and see Vashj and Kael'thas at some point, if we don't get them now, in order to get our rings and titles. But overall, clearing the way through some potentially frustrating and difficult encounters that we're going to face until 2.4 comes out is a great boon, in my eyes.

So overall, I'm happy with this and I expect that I will still get to see everything, eventually, but this might help remove some roadblocks from our path. :)

[Jester]

Perhaps I'm a bit jaded because the way this is working out is perfect for my raiding group. We're currently 5/6 and 3/4 in SSC and TK, so we just have to look at Vashj and Kael'thas, right now. We'll work on them until 2.4 comes out, and then likely move into Hyjal and BT to see some of that. But I have a feeling we'll go back and see Vashj and Kael'thas at some point, if we don't get them now, in order to get our rings and titles. But overall, clearing the way through some potentially frustrating and difficult encounters that we're going to face until 2.4 comes out is a great boon, in my eyes.

Nit: Solarian lives on Terenas, we're 5/6 and 2/4.

Until next week. :shuriken:

-Jester

[TheDragoon]

Nit: Solarian lives on Terenas, we're 5/6 and 2/4.

Until next week. :shuriken:

-Jester

Haha, true. He must have completely left my mind because I knew he'd be dead. :whistling:

[Lissa]

Haha, true. He must have completely left my mind because I knew he'd be dead. :whistling:

Nit: she :P

[Skandranon]

Take Avarice, for example. Even if we were crazy enough to move Kara into our progression track on the theory that we'd need as many badges as possible...that'd only take some of us 1/2 of a night (2 hours) and a couple others possibly four hours. Then we are left with 2 more raiding nights. Our progress would be slowed due to the loss of a night, but it wouldn't be stopped.

Yes, the need to farm badges would slow progression. What would stop it would be the realization (and although inertia will keep some raid groups going for a while, this will come eventually) that you are spending time and money wiping and learning for no reward.

If you can hold together over that, grats. But over the long run, the majority of groups will not.

[Jester]

The Badge of Justice vendor hasn't been revealed yet, probably because he is locked away behind a later stage of the Shattered Sun Offensive. These screenshots show above-t6 quality loot, ilvl151-161; these are, in fact, the drops from Sunwell bosses, but tokenized so as to avoid RNG screwage (something which, as I said, the raiding game desperately needs). World of Raids has incorrectly labelled this the "badge vendor" when it clearly isn't.

Drysc specifically said that there would be a badge vendor offering T6 quality loot. I'm sure it'll come out within the next couple days.

Could you clarify whether you know this to be a fact (that the badge vendor is not being referred to here, but is instead a different entity somehwere else?), or just speculation?

It could be that "badge" gear here is some other collectable that can be obtained like Badges of Justice, but are not the same thing, right?

That's what I figured the first I heard of it. Farming Karazhan a million times to get an item 40 ilvls over Kara loot seems strange to me.

-Jester

[Skandranon]

Could you clarify whether you know this to be a fact (that the badge vendor is not being referred to here, but is instead a different entity somehwere else?), or just speculation?

Technically speculation but I consider it fact. Let me lay out my reasons.

1) Drysc refers to the use of badges as currency.

2) Drysc refers to the loot as being T6 quality. The loot on these vendors is above T6 quality, not T6-quality. In case of any confusion, his exact term is BT quality. All the loot so far revealed is superior to Illidan loot, so this is clearly not BT-quality, any more than BT gear is "ZA-quality" loot.

3) Drysc specifically refers to the presence of fist weapons on the vendor he's talking about. The vendors currently available do not have any weapons on their lists.

4) Currently, all the drops from these vendors are purchased either via a loot token like T4/5/6 (in which case, I doubt Drysc would have used the word "badge"), or an actual epic item drop from the Sunwell itself. For example, the caster helm, Helm of Arcane Purity, is obtained by purchasing it with one Cowl of Light's Purity (the cloth healer helm, a drop from a boss inside Sunwell Plateau) plus one Sunmote (which is a random trash drop, akin to Hearts of Darkness in Black Temple). Neither of these cases are anything like "badges".

For these reasons, the vendors so far revealed cannot be the vendor Drysc was talking about, unless he was mistaken about the loot quality, the currency used, and the presence of weapons (especially his specific comment about fist weapons). Nothing he says matches up with what we've seen except that he is talking about a vendor and we are also seeing vendors; the currency is wrong, the quality is wrong, the items he specifically talked about as being there do not match.

Now, the part about it being available at a later stage of the Shattered Sun Offensive is pure speculation, but I think it's sound. Currently Sunwell Isle lacks an inn, a meeting stone, a repair NPC, and various other components of a quest hub, and residents of the Isle talk about, in dialogue, implementing some of these things and a portal to Shattrath City at later stages of the Offensive. Given that, and given that the vendors we are seeing now are definitely not the vendors Drysc was talking about, I think it's solid speculation that the vendor will come as the Isle develops. The only other possibility is that they've decided to discontinue the vendor, which I think would obviously be the right design decision, but which I don't think is likely.

[Sheep]

All of the discussion about obsoleted content has been quite a revelation to me.

I recently decided that I would finally cap a character. I've messed about with several character classes up to about level 30, on various realms, and now I know what I want to play, and where; thus, my new Warlock, Stroud, on Terenas. I'll be 70 soon, mark my words.

Anyways, on to the meat of the issue. How does a new character gear up? Does he run with his guildmates in content he is clearly undergeared for, more of a drag than anything else? Does he convince his guildmates to run easier content with him? Is there a mechanism built in for just such a situation?

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what will I see on my way to and when I get to level 70?

[Kevin]

All of the discussion about obsoleted content has been quite a revelation to me.

I recently decided that I would finally cap a character. I've messed about with several character classes up to about level 30, on various realms, and now I know what I want to play, and where; thus, my new Warlock, Stroud, on Terenas. I'll be 70 soon, mark my words.

Anyways, on to the meat of the issue. How does a new character gear up? Does he run with his guildmates in content he is clearly undergeared for, more of a drag than anything else? Does he convince his guildmates to run easier content with him? Is there a mechanism built in for just such a situation?

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what will I see on my way to and when I get to level 70?

Playing with Lurkers on Terenas you should have a few options.

1) Get "cheesed" through an instance. Someone (or several people depending on the instance) uses a higher level character to get through the instance and take you along. Once you are in Outlands (as a warlock you could probably successfully start doing some of the quests there at L56 since I think they offer some that low, though you might have to be 58, but an L56 in the first instance, Ramparts, with other L56-60's can be successful in that instance no cheese needed if the players have any skill). Anyway once you are in Outlands the people cheesing you might even be getting something out of the instance as there are daily quests to clear out stuff in various normal and heroic mode instances.

2) Play with alts of guildies. Most lurkers like their alts, and you do have the chance to get a level appropriate group for an instance, though this will generally take some pre planning, like a post in the Terenas forums saying "Hey I want to run Gnomer and these are the times I can do it, if you've got some alts that want to go, that would be great". With some advance warning there are enough folks in the guild with enough alts at vaious stages to get groups this way. It may not work out for you though.

2a) You can underman the instance as well. If you can only get 3 other lurkers with level appropriate toons as long as you have a healer and someone who can tank (which might be the warlock with pets, fears and other tools) most of the instances can be handled just fine by 3 or 4 leval appropriate lurkers. The very first time I ran Blood Furnace we 2 manned at L61 through the first boss (beast hunter + shaman), picked up another hunter for the 2nd boss and then picked up a shadow priest for the rest of the run. All of us L61, only the shadow priest had seen the instance before.

3) PuG the instance. I've actually had pretty decent luck with PuGs (Pick-up Groups) on Terenas since TBC launched. You still get a some major morons, but generally you'll have at least 2 of the 4 other folks that can play the game, and you might get 1 or 2 other lurkers these runs can be fun or frustrating.

Now when you get to the very end game, hit L70. You'll probably end up doing a lot of the 5 man instances on heroic mode and if you are running with other lurker mains even if you are in auction house greens they mostly be easy instances. You'll hit other end game 5 mans in normal mode with the over geared mains, over geared alts, and undergeared alts. As far as the raids go, you'll probably get priority on a slot in Karazhan so that you can get geared up better as the guild likes to do that. Again you'll be in there with alts and mains and since most all of the Terenas Lurkers have run Kara way too many times you'll probably feel like you are being brought along for the ride as well, but you don't have to. Play your best and you'll know you are contributing, and you'll be able to tell that it's only gear difference that has you not doing as much as others, but there are still jobs that even an under geared warlock can do in that instance that will make the place easier for everyone if you play well. ZA is a little bit harsher on the gearing and class balance than Kara so you might find yourself on the sidelines till you get some better gearing then again you might be the 10th person that makes the run happen and the group will just have to play better. Which isn't a problem.

You'll also probably find a spot on some of the 25 mans. We've had folks in blues and greens in there on learning runs in SSC and TK, sure it's because they weren't at 25 without that person generally but there is still slack in the 25 mans despite what some folks claim and you will help and you'll likely get some better gear as well. Skill is greater than gear in this game.

So you should find enough heroics and five mans and the Kara runs and have folks helping you with crafted items to get geared up pretty quickly and feel like you are a bigger part of the team. It will still probably take a few months after you hit 70, really depends on the luck, but once you get a few crafts a few badge rewards and few pieces of Kara gear you really do have all you need if everyone executes everything perfectly to get through the whole game. The other better gear you can and will get doing the other instances just means that people can make more little mistakes. :)