Patch 2.4 Notes

[lorecraft]

DEATH TO RAIDS!!!!!!!!!!

jk

IMHO, I should be able to solo a few pieces of decent gear to 'fill in the gaps.' Granted, I can PuG AV like crazy and cycle through a few Arena teams, but that requires me to rely on others.

5-mans rock, and so do raids IMHO, but I should be able to show up for one of those and have people say "Lore, nice helm" (referring to something I picked up on a solo quest chain or through some task).

imnsho

[lorecraft]

Now we know the curse within. If only the Keepers would have told us of the true fate of its inhabitants. They are all in there just trying to collect some damn badges!!!!!!!!!

Head for the hills!

Madness has taken over! With italics!

The good folk of the realms will languish in Karazhan forever, trapped, unable to stop running instances they deeply despise for fear of obtaining slightly fewer rewards!

All is lost!

-Jester

[Monkey]

Things continue as normal. The design is still leaps and bounds past where it was in the Molten Core days, and people still loved it then.

It's funny you mention Molten Core. Back when I raided seriously, we had a warlock in our guild who was absolutely adamant that Molten Core was fun and important to run until the day he was 8/8 Felheart. Then it was suddenly "old" and "boring" and content we should never run again...

Every guild is going to have a few completionists--this way, the folks who indulge them at least get something out of the deal.

Also, while I'm here:

A full Kara clear nets 22 badges (more if you go for the animal boss, I suppose), and only takes about 3.5 hours tops with a geared group.

Oops! I apologize for my impassioned yet incorrect analysis. In light of those numbers, it will be interesting to see where Blizzard balances the number of badges per 25-man boss when 2.4 finally goes live. Skandranon makes a fair point that incentives should line up for people to move on to new content. I think Blizzard has that in mind by putting badges on 25-man bosses, we'll just have to see how it balances out.

Also, I should clearly get into some KZ runs before 2.4!

[Icebird]

After thinking about it, the badge issue doesn't really bother me.

I can't see any player with access to Tier 6 instances choosing to go to Karazhan *instead* of BT or Hyjal. The Tier 6 instances give you a chance for loot - and badges, while Kara gives badges alone.

For those raiders, badges are a nice to pick up supplementary items - eg that pesky item that refuses to drop. Or the multi-class item that you have to compete with half the guild for. In that respect I can badges being the same way people use Arena teams to get weapons upgrades.

For the guilds that simply aren't large enough to put a 25 person raid together, badges give you a nice incentive to run Kara, Zul'Aman and heroics. There is still something for you to aim for. And even the most dedicated badge collectors aren't going to be assembling full armor sets overnight (people presently sitting on vast hordes of unspent badges excepted).

When it comes down to it, loot is the driving force in the game once you reach the level cap. It's the only way to make your character "stronger", and in the years since the game's first release Blizzard has developed the ways it distributes loot considerably:

To list:
- Straight drops
- Token drops (so particular classes aren't disadvantaged by the RNG)
- Quest rewards
- Reputation rewards
- Badge rewards

DKP systems were developed to reward players who invested time but got no instant rewards in terms of drops. Now every boss will drop something that you can use (eventually) to get loot. Even the bosses where you disenchant every other drop will be worth *something*.

Chris

[Bolty]

When it comes down to it, loot is the driving force in the game once you reach the level cap.

See, this is still the point that irks me. I'm not saying that you're a loot whore or anything, nor is this post focused at you, Icebird. I'm going to jump on a soapbox here and I'm not aiming anything at you, just speaking in general.

Loot is not the driving force in the game for everyone. The prevailing attitude always seems to be that loot is "king" and it's what upsets hardcore raiders when casuals get "free loot."

I couldn't give two craps about it. Loot is what it's always been: a means to an end, an enabler. Better loot makes you stronger, yes, but why? Each expansion is going to reset your precious loots and make them fairly irrelevant (except for items like the Rejuvenating Gem...wtf?). Why go crazy over loot? Why run heroic Mechanar every day for weeks on end to get badges? Why do people do things that are un-fun to chase the mysterious goal of uber loot? God, a few patches ago it was so hard to find a heroic run of anything BUT Mechanar. Made me want to puke; thank goodness for dailies to bring in some variety.

Do I want better loot? Of course! Why? Because it will help me do what I want to do: see everything the game has to offer. Get all the stupid mounts so I can ride an elephant as a Dwarf. See Medivh summon a dragon and kill it with one spell, turning it into the terror that is Nightbane. Gasp as the ceiling caves in over Magtheridon (and reassemble itself after a wipe, that's a neat trick). Battle my inner demon. Throw a Tainted Core at a teammate. Dodge Void Reaver's orbs. Witness the controlled chaos of fighting all four of Kael'thas' advisors at once. Watch Akama give his speech to the Deathsworn inside Black Temple. Wreck constructs before they own your raid. Get bubbled when Archimonde hits 10% and listen to the cacophony of screaming victory over vent as your heart pounds out of your chest. Queue up for Arena in the last week of a season and be practically shaking as the next game could possibly get you a Gladiator title. And hopefully someday soon, watching Illidan Stormrage hit the deck, defeated, conquering the game and freeing Outland.

You need loot for all these things. When casuals can use badges to get loot, well, good for them. If it gives them a chance to do those things above, great. But since the majority of players are focused on loot for the sake of loot, they'll just run Kara every week as Skandranon says - even if they hate it - just to get loot! For what, to stand around Shattrath with it? Ohhhkaayy....

See, "casuals" can get all the "free epics" they want. They're still missing out of what makes WoW fun. If it enables them to move forward with it, awesome.

Or, to put it in the way I do whenever this kind of conversation comes up:
Think back to some major victory of yours in this game, whether it be the first kill of Nefarian, your first 45-minute Baron run victory, or hell, your first run through UBRS. Remember that? Remember how you felt when you achieved it, surrounded by others who had been through it all with you? Think back and bring up that happy memory.

Okay. Now, do you remember what dropped at the time?

Oh, can't remember, can you? What does that tell you?

So Skandranon is saying plainly that Blizzard's system doesn't encourage players to enjoy these experiences, these victories. Instead, it does just the opposite: it compels you to run old, wasted, beaten-down content over and over to get upgrades to your character. It makes the game one-dimensional and ultimately NOT FUN. Players may THINK they're having fun getting phat epix, but loot for the sake of loot doesn't provide any long-term happiness. Sure, you may think it's great when you get those items, but that wears off fast and all you'll have in the end are memories of spending most of The Burning Crusade running...Karazhan.

Ew.

I recently did a Zul'Aman run for no reason other than to hang out and have fun with people I know. There's no upgrades for me there, no phat lewts, no "progression" (I've beaten the place many times). Unlike with most Kara runs people put together nowadays, it wasn't done to gear up peoples' alts and they need a healer along, putting a guilt trip on me for not coming. It wasn't a run set up for the sole sake of loot - it was a run to try to kill some bosses with players' mains and have fun doing it. It was the most fun I'd had in ZA since PTR. It's what playing WoW is all about. People forget that too easily, and it's a damn shame.

I'll run Kara, of course - I'll need the badge loot for Sunwell since I'm terribly undergeared for BT as it is - but only in smash-and-grab groups that want to get in, push to see how fast they can clear it, and get out. That at least keeps it interesting as an exercise of trying to beat your previous time. But spending 4 hours in an instance that you "completed" a year ago is just not fun. Not in the slightest. And I'm with Skan; Blizzard botched it by telling players, who aren't stupid, that the best way to upgrade your character is to spend time in old instances that have been beaten to death already instead of trying to push forward, see and do new things, and enjoy new experiences.

End soapbox.

-Bolty

[Taelas]

I'm with Bolty. I do want loot, but more than that, I want to experience the content. Vashj, Kael'thas, Archimonde, Illidan, Kil'jaeden. All of these characters have ... history ... in a way Ragnaros, Onyxia and Nefarian never did. It felt pretty damn great to down those bosses for the first time -- what will it feel to down these?

[Mavfin]

Do I want better loot? Of course! Why? Because it will help me do what I want to do: see everything the game has to offer. Get all the stupid mounts so I can ride an elephant as a Dwarf. See Medivh summon a dragon and kill it with one spell, turning it into the terror that is Nightbane. Gasp as the ceiling caves in over Magtheridon (and reassemble itself after a wipe, that's a neat trick). Battle my inner demon. Throw a Tainted Core at a teammate. Dodge Void Reaver's orbs. Witness the controlled chaos of fighting all four of Kael'thas' advisors at once. Watch Akama give his speech to the Deathsworn inside Black Temple. Wreck constructs before they own your raid. Get bubbled when Archimonde hits 10% and listen to the cacophony of screaming victory over vent as your heart pounds out of your chest. Queue up for Arena in the last week of a season and be practically shaking as the next game could possibly get you a Gladiator title. And hopefully someday soon, watching Illidan Stormrage hit the deck, defeated, conquering the game and freeing Outland.

-Bolty

Of course I want better gear to do my 'group job' better, whether that be tanking with my warrior, or blowing stuff up with my elemental shaman. I could care less about 'showing off' my gear. I just want to be able to tank better or do more DPS, or heal better. Some may ask why I need to, if ZA's as far as I'm going at the moment. Well, you can do T6 instances in T4 gear or even less, so you don't *need* T5, do you? That's a dead argument. Everyone likes to improve their toon, and gear is the main way to make it better. Would I like to see Hyjal? Yes. Do I, realistically, have the time to put in to see it right, without being a burden to the raid I see it in? No. Sure, given the time, I could be an asset to a raid. Been there, done that.

Unfortunately for me, with my current RL commitments, 2/3 of the stuff you list up there to see in the game are out of my reach because I don't have the uninterrupted time blocks to do them. However, because of the same time constraints, half the stuff you list as things you're bored with and never want to see again, are things that I've just dipped my toe in, so to speak, and I'm not finished with. I mean, I just finished some of the SMV quests last week. There's a heroic or two that I've experienced one time only.

As I told Skan, you and I aren't necessarily even playing the same game, Bolty. Your game is 25-mans, bleeding-edge, seeing everything that's there. I have to limit myself to what I have the time blocks for. I play every night, but I have interruptions. If I raided like I used to, my wife would skin me alive. :wacko: Do I still have fun? Yes. Is my fun the same as yours? Evidently not. At least, not anymore. That's not a criticism of you and your way of playing. It's just that what works for you isn't working for me. I tried, but I just didn't have the time. When I was ready for Kara, you were almost done with it. When I was ready for 25-mans, you were ready for the 2nd tier. I know I'm not unskilled in a raid environment, but I'm also aware of the time requirements. I can't keep up.

I'm glad that I at least have something to work for, and that it's not like the old days. I *can* make my character better without having to raid 25-mans. I think that's what it's all about. Every time someone suggests making a special badge that you get off of Kael or Vashj, I just cringe. If you do that, then the only people who will see those badges are the people who are already raiding, OR, you will end up right back at raid-or-die, like it was pre-BC. It seems like the people who love the 25-man raids assume that everyone else does. It's a nice idea, but it really doesn't work that way.

As far as great moments, I remember tanking on Avarice's first Emps kill. I remember the night Seiki and Anadrol were both gone and I MTed BWL the first time. But I also remember a lot of 5-man, solo, and even 2-man victories in the game. I still have more fun in a 5-10 man environment with other people who know what they're doing than I had in 40-man or 25-man raiding, with only one or two exceptions.