Updating the 'puter for hardcore ownage

[kandrathe]

I was rather ticked off to find out Fry's Electronics doesn't carry my RAM anymore, or CPU. Apparently my motherboard is antiquated in the world of computer electronics (ASUS A8N-SLi Deluxe), however when I bought it, it was top of the line, #1 in it's class, and so was the RAM. I build it myself I think 4-5 years ago but it was last year when I did decided to do an upgrade to 4-gigs of RAM and a dual-core processor after my video card crapped out. Imagine my surprise when I found out my computer and most of it's core components was a dinosaur after a little over 3-years; I guess the computer world will never stand-still. It's because of this that I now believe your better off purchasing a whole package deal with all the trimmings rather than waste excess money buying 'exactly' what you want in your computer for an exceedingly larger amount than you would of paid have you just stuck with the package deal.

Well, there is Moore's (or Engelbart's) Law at work here. When you roll your own, you at least have the option of re-rolling after a few years to keep some of the pieces. The core mobo, cpu and ram can usually be upgraded for less than 1/2 the cost. Basic components like HD's, DVD, Case, PSU, graphic's cards make up the other half and are not that different year to year. The key is to choose basic hardware trends correctly, like PCI Express vs AGP, and IDE vs SATA. As long as you have a good ATX case, and a good PSU, the rest is features. :)

Is this the RAM you need and the CPU that you want?

[Taem]

Is this the RAM you need and the CPU that you want?

Yes and yes, but I already got them both; luckily there are still some store around that carry "antiquated" computer parts. Funnily enough, my computer is still as fast, if not faster, than some of the newest beasts currently on the market which I find ironic for a system labeled as "old" by today's standards.

[--Pete]

Hi,

. . . rather than waste excess money buying 'exactly' what you want in your computer for an exceedingly larger amount than you would of paid have you just stuck with the package deal.

You know, I've seen other people make this same claim. IMHO, it's bull#$%&. Only if you think all HD are the same, all memory is the same, etc. can you make that claim. But if you were to actually take the trouble to compare fresh oats to fresh oats rather than used ones, you would find that you can almost always match, and usually beat, the price of a 'stock' system. Often, the only impediment to getting parts equivalent to the stock parts is that no-one retails that stripped down, detuned OEM special made crap. And you can definitely beat the price of a top of the line (e.g., Alienware or Falcon) system. If you expect to get top of the line components for Dell prices, then you are fooling yourself.

--Pete

[Concillian]

I guess the computer world will never stand-still. It's because of this that I now believe your better off purchasing a whole package deal with all the trimmings rather than waste excess money buying 'exactly' what you want in your computer for an exceedingly larger amount than you would of paid have you just stuck with the package deal.

What happens is "feature creep" when you build your own. If you choose modest components with only the features you really need you do just fine. It's just that people get carried away... this board has this other feature for only $10 more, this processor is faster and it's only $20 more, Oh, I MUST have low latency RAM for an extra $30 (no you don't) suddenly you've spent an extra $100+

As you noted, the advancements these days are generally not spectacular. Outside of games, very few people would actually notice a CPU speed difference of 500 MHz doing stuff like browsing and email, Excel and Word. Since the advent of dual core, there is nothing important left for basic computing except for miniturization and power consumption reduction. Up until a month ago my work machine was a 1GHz P3 and it did everything I needed (including statistical software, extensive Excel macros, etc...) absolutely fine. I had to upgrade because IT said it was end of life and they wouldn't support it anymore. So there are only 3 reasons to spend additional money when building a system:
- power efficiency
- ergonomics / size / looks
- Games

For most here, obviously the last item is their main concern.

So then you need to know "your" gaming tendencies. A reasonable number of Lurkers play WoW, an MMO. When there are slowdowns, it's usually CPU related. Contrast this to FPS type games where CPU demands are roughly constant at any resolution and most situations. Slowdowns there are generally attributed to the video card. In both RAM latency matters a small percentage, but is generally never an issue related to the real noticeable slowdowns. I did some of this kind of testing when I used to play an FPS and when I started playing WoW.

Change CPU clock and FRAPS a given path with the frames per second option, then do the same with the video card clock. Make a graph of delta between fast and slow and you see the delta. In one case, the delta will be pretty flat. In another there will be swings in the delta. The item with swings is the one that matters most for that particular path in that game. If you choose the right sample for testing, then you can get pretty detailed information about what is most important for that particular case. Once you have a system set, you can choose your video options this way. A lengthy process, but you then know exactly what each setting does for your performance. I did this for a rather poorly written FPS I used to play, because it's video options were totally cryptic (Battlefield: Vietnam one of the few games that the next in the generation both looked better AND performed significantly better at settings where it looked better.)

So you choose to spend the little extra on the parts you would actually use (CPU for MMO or RTS, Video card for FPS, get the right amount of RAM, but don't go overboard on low latency)

As long as you keep desire to go overboard in check, you can do just as well building yourself as the bundle deals.

[Kevin]

As long as you keep desire to go overboard in check, you can do just as well building yourself as the bundle deals.

Another thing that gets people is to be realistic about "future upgrade path". How many people have actually upgraded the CPU and kept the same motherboard in the last 5 years? You think you will do it, but the CPU formats change faster than that. You will run into a different socket type before you will really want to upgrade in most cases. Memory runs into some of the same issues, but not as badly. I've carried old memory to a new mobo/CPU combo and then gotten faster memory later on when the budget allowed.

I do that with video cards a fair bit as well, I'll carry the old one for a bit, then get a new one.

Hard drives I carry forward all the time until they just get retired. They may not end up as my primary drive but there is a fair bit of stuff that I store that can live happily on the slower access drives. The stuff where HDD performance matters will be on the newer (hopefully faster) drive.

Once I got up to an SB Audigy card and now that many motherboards are putting sound hardware, not just software codecs, onboard, I don't worry too much about sound either. My system has yet to be in an environment where sound will matter that much as the speakers I'll be using won't be good enough. If I want to watch a DVD or something else that ends up on the TV and the sound through the stereo system, if I'm watching a DVD or other on the monitor on the system then I'm generally doing something else so the quality doesn't matter.

I don't generally need another keyboard or mouse and I look at monitors as once every 10 years or so at this stage in the game, if not longer.


So I've stopped considering if the motherboard has a chance to support a CPU that I'd like to upgrade to a few years down the line, if it supports the other stuff I want and it isn't a crap MB I'll save $20-$30 there and be very happy. Chances are price/performance when I want to upgrade again, even if I could just get a CPU, will likely point me to getting a new mobo/CPU anyway so that I can get whatever next gen CPU tech is out there. Even with dual core stuff you may think that socket tech shouldn't change soon and that the mobo should be able to support new stuff, but my bet is that a faster communication system to the other components will be out that will change this, or something else we can't fully predict.


Spend more on the power supply, spend more on noise reduction. Spend more to get less power consumption (if it makes sense some doesn't still) Don't spend more on very marginal performance (once you get to the level you want). I agree with Conc on that.


I was raiding just fine in WoW with a Ti4200 video card and Athlon XP 2100+, that tech was pushing 3 years old when WoW was released. I don't do a ton of FPS gaming but my mildly better 6600 GT and 2800+ (I didn't buy the processor, it was a given to me by a coworker) plays Stars Wars Battlefront 2 and Halo just fine. Oblivion plays on it too though I do notice a few places where I'm wishing for more horsepower.

Of course since I tend to keep 3-5 bootable systems in my house old parts get shuffled around and maybe that is part of the just get a CPU/Mobo at the same time. It lets me just phase out something that is getting really old (a Duron 800 system went to relatives who were just going to be doing e-mail and web browsing). An Athlon 1200 went to a friend who had a system die and at the time was mostly playing stuff like Starcraft and Diablo 2 and a bit of WoW (and yes that system was just fine for 5 mans and stuff).

[DeeBye]

I was raiding just fine in WoW with a Ti4200 video card and Athlon XP 2100+, that tech was pushing 3 years old when WoW was released. I don't do a ton of FPS gaming but my mildly better 6600 GT and 2800+ (I didn't buy the processor, it was a given to me by a coworker) plays Stars Wars Battlefront 2 and Halo just fine. Oblivion plays on it too though I do notice a few places where I'm wishing for more horsepower.

What resolution are you running at? I'm sure that my old Athlon 1700+ and Radeon 9600XT system can do WoW just fine at 1024x768, but I doubt it would do much for a 22" LCD @ 1680x1050.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Another thing that gets people is to be realistic about "future upgrade path". How many people have actually upgraded the CPU and kept the same motherboard in the last 5 years?

That's so true. I keep thinking that I'll upgrade the CPU or video card, etc. But looking back over nearly thirty years of rolling my own, about all I ever really 'upgrade' is to add more memory or an additional hard drive, or replace a PSU if it gets overloaded. The only times I've ever 'upgraded' is when I've cannibalized older systems, and very little at that, since it is often cheaper to get new components than it is to buy the older, no longer in production stuff.

Good advice.

--Pete

[Taem]

Hi,
You know, I've seen other people make this same claim. IMHO, it's bull#$%&. Only if you think all HD are the same, all memory is the same, etc. can you make that claim. But if you were to actually take the trouble to compare fresh oats to fresh oats rather than used ones, you would find that you can almost always match, and usually beat, the price of a 'stock' system. Often, the only impediment to getting parts equivalent to the stock parts is that no-one retails that stripped down, detuned OEM special made crap. And you can definitely beat the price of a top of the line (e.g., Alienware or Falcon) system. If you expect to get top of the line components for Dell prices, then you are fooling yourself.

--Pete

Well possibly not Alienware, however when I built my computer, I got $greedy$ and purchased - at the time - only the *best* 2-GB RAM, CPU, Motherboard, 2xGraphics Cards with SLI, SATA hard-drives, and a better Power Supply for the more intense load. I went to Fry's Electronics and local computer expo's to find the cheapest prices available. The only things I kept from my old computer which I was upgrading from was the case (I should have gotten a new one because it's constantly over heating causing me to play games with the case open and an external fan on the motherboard), 2x DVD R/RW+/- Rom Drives, my 250-GB IDE Drive (for storage), the NIC card, my Keyboard, Mouse, Monitor, Speakers, Headphones, and Software (ah yes, Windows XP Professional). My computer price for doing this myself? $2,200.00. Had I of bought a Dell *at this point in time*, I could have gotten one with not quite as powerful a video card but everything else + a monitor + speakers + Windows XP for the exact same price or lower. It was the thrill of building my own computer that made up for the price, but that was it.

As you might have heard, I made fairly recent upgrades (within the last year) and purchased a new video card and ditched the 2xSLI format (not much improvement at all from using 2x SLI cards of lower stock than using one next gen video card), upgraded to 4-GB of RAM, and got the dual-core processor + heatsink. I ended up spending about another $800.00-$900.00 for "used" parts; had I of bought these new, I'm sure the price would of been much higher. Total price for this computer: $3,000.00. Using Alienware as an example, I could have gotten the same computer (+windows, but w/out a monitor) for roughly the same price! No, if your purchasing top-of-the-line components, I don't believe you will save money building your own computer, or at least not that much more.

[--Pete]

Hi,

. . . I went to Fry's Electronics and local computer expo's to find the cheapest prices available.

That's part of the problem. I live about 10 minutes from a Fry's, and I only use them for minor purchases because I can always get what I want for considerably less online (the outlandish Washington state sales tax contributes a lot to this). You can almost always beat local prices at Newegg, and beat them a lot by searching, for instance, Cnet.

. . . My computer price for doing this myself? $2,200.00. . . .

Wow (and not the game:)) A couple of years ago, I got the components for *two* machines that were pretty well the equivalent for about $2500. The whole process is detailed in this ancient thread. (And, no, I still haven't finished assembling the second machine:()

Had I of bought a Dell *at this point in time*, I could have gotten one with not quite as powerful a video card but everything else + a monitor + speakers + Windows XP for the exact same price or lower. It was the thrill of building my own computer that made up for the price, but that was it.

But here is where the point I'm trying to make comes in. The Dell system would not have had the same quality components as what you built. If you had built your system with Dell quality components, it would probably (with a little bit of online shopping) have cost you no more than Dell prices, and maybe even a bit less.

As you might have heard, I made fairly recent upgrades (within the last year) and purchased a new video card and ditched the 2xSLI format (not much improvement at all from using 2x SLI cards of lower stock than using one next gen video card), upgraded to 4-GB of RAM, and got the dual-core processor + heatsink. I ended up spending about another $800.00-$900.00 for "used" parts; had I of bought these new, I'm sure the price would of been much higher.

Again, this sounds high, but without specific info on the processor and video card, it's hard to tell. Check out Newegg to see how these prices compare.

Total price for this computer: $3,000.00. Using Alienware as an example, I could have gotten the same computer (+windows, but w/out a monitor) for roughly the same price! No, if your purchasing top-of-the-line components, I don't believe you will save money building your own computer, or at least not that much more.

Not fair! The $3000 includes replacing the video card and CPU. At the very least, you need to subtract the cost of the originals from the total, since they are no longer in the machine.

I've actually taken the time and trouble to compare the cost on three occasions, once when I was building game machines for Magi and me, and twice when other people asked me to build a machine for them. Each time, *for the same components*, I could build cheaper. It might even be a fun exercise for the Loungers to pick some pre-built that has enough info to compare, and see what we can find from the parts people. I bet it's still cheaper to build.

--Pete

[Kevin]

I've actually taken the time and trouble to compare the cost on three occasions, once when I was building game machines for Magi and me, and twice when other people asked me to build a machine for them. Each time, *for the same components*, I could build cheaper. It might even be a fun exercise for the Loungers to pick some pre-built that has enough info to compare, and see what we can find from the parts people. I bet it's still cheaper to build.

This has been my experience as well when looking at just the hardware, in all but one instance where Dell had some deal going and I was still able to use a rebate deal on it as well. Getting a complete system for $200 is pretty damn hard to beat. I'm pretty sure it was a 17 inch CRT, this was a while ago, 1.2 GHz P3, GeForce 3 video card, 80 GB HD, keyboard, optical mouse, 100 LAN card, and a Soundblaster Live! sound card. Those parts weren't super top of the line but they weren't that far behind at the time when I got it. I may have some stuff remembered wrong. And yeah Dell probably shouldn't have allowed the $300 rebate on top of the whatever special that was going on but they did, so one of my friends got a very nice very cheap system. :)

The one place where the premades tend to win out though is if you want the software that is bundled with them. It is very hard to get the software as cheaply if you want the same software. However Linux can be the great equalizer here, especially for the "E-mail and web browsing" family members who are thousands of miles away as you are lot less likely to need to provide major support for them and can do it easier remotely if you do, with a *nix OS.

[--Pete]

Hi,

. . . but one instance where Dell had some deal going and I was still able to use a rebate deal on it as well. Getting a complete system for $200 is pretty damn hard to beat.

And yeah Dell probably shouldn't have allowed the $300 rebate on top of the whatever special that was going on but they did, . . .

Brings to mind the stories you hear about smart shoppers that clip coupons so much that after they go through the check out line, the store ends up owing them:) I can see it now, "It's not too bad a system, and they *did* pay me $150 to take it." :lol:

The one place where the premades tend to win out though is if you want the software that is bundled with them. It is very hard to get the software as cheaply if you want the same software. However Linux can be the great equalizer here, especially for the "E-mail and web browsing" family members who are thousands of miles away as you are lot less likely to need to provide major support for them and can do it easier remotely if you do, with a *nix OS.

Operative phrase, "if you want the same software." The pre-builts I've worked on (especially laptops) were garbaged with things like Works and various Norton/Symantic bloat. Or semi-stripped versions of Office (no Access, for instance). I even got some real nice (I guess) software for writing DVDs on my laptops -- shame that neither of them has a DVD writer;)

What's that commercial about it's only a bargain if you want it in the first place? The vendor says' "Includes $900 of bundled software." I say, "Three days to clean that crap out. Four if it includes Symantic."

So, yeah, you get the software at bargain prices. Most of the time, I'd rather download the freeware or shareware equivalent or skip it entirely. For most of the people I know, a *nix OS doesn't cut it, all they know is what they use at work, and that's usually Office on a Mac or under XP. Heck, redo their toolbars and they're lost;)

--Pete

[Taem]

Hi,
That's part of the problem. I live about 10 minutes from a Fry's, and I only use them for minor purchases because I can always get what I want for considerably less online (the outlandish Washington state sales tax contributes a lot to this). You can almost always beat local prices at Newegg, and beat them a lot by searching, for instance, Cnet.

Yeah, I remember cnet offering the same vid cards for about $50 dollars cheaper, but I could not wait (I mean I "could", but I didn't want too). I had just got the wife believing we needed all these parts for an upgrade to the computer after writing them down on paper weeks earlier and I knew if I waited any longer, she would start asking me if we really "needed" such a powerful computer, to which my answer would have been "no."

Not fair! The $3000 includes replacing the video card and CPU. At the very least, you need to subtract the cost of the originals from the total, since they are no longer in the machine.

Ahh, forgot about this. Each vid card was $450 at the time. I *think* the CPU was around $200. Humm, well this makes me think. I suppose your right then about building your own computer. I was adding it incorrectly this whole time, lol.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I was adding it incorrectly this whole time, lol.

Not really. The ultimate decision should be based on what *you* want to do. Reminds me of another joke. Company hires a new engineer. First day of work, he comes in, cranks up a spreadsheet and is calculating away. After a few hours, his boss, impressed at the guy's work ethic, comes over to see what he's doing. Engineer walks the boss through this complex spreadsheet with all the parameters for driving versus taking public transportation for his commute. Says, "I think I've almost got the variables adjusted to prove that driving is better." :)

--Pete

[Quark]

Tangentially related, Anandtech got a look at the upcoming (Q4) Nehalem CPU. This thing is going to be a beast.

Take Penryn, add in HyperThreading that should no longer be a burden (thanks to 4 innate cores), and implement an integrated memory controller - the same feature that gave AMD it's short lived wonder years with Athlon64.

[DeeBye]

Tangentially related, Anandtech got a look at the upcoming (Q4) Nehalem CPU. This thing is going to be a beast.

Take Penryn, add in HyperThreading that should no longer be a burden (thanks to 4 innate cores), and implement an integrated memory controller - the same feature that gave AMD it's short lived wonder years with Athlon64.

Holy smokes! Those early benchmarks are amazing.

[DeeBye]

Gigabyte LGA755 P35 Motherboard $92.99
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 3.0GHz Wolfdale $198.99
Antec Sonata III case with 500W PSU $93.98
Corsair XMS2 2x2GB (4 GB) 6400 RAM $92.99
Western Digital 500GB SATA2 HDD $82.99
LG 20X DVD writer SATA $26.99

Total = $588.93

You'll notice that this lacks a video card, but I'll be using a XFX nVidia 7900GS I picked up for cheap around Christmas. I'll be on the lookout for something nice in the 9X00 line in the future, but I think the 7900GS will do for now.

I just bought a BFG 9600GT for $99.99 after mail-in rebate. I think I'm done now.

[DeeBye]

Here's the 3DMark06 score:


It's kinda underwhelming, but 3DMark is slanted towards GPU performance and my video card is 2 generations old. If I had a 8800GT or 9600GT I'm sure it would be pretty decent.

Here's the 3DMark06 score after replacing the XFX 7900GS 256MB with a BFG 9600GT OC 512MB.


Quite a nice jump I'd say for a $100 video card.