Updating the 'puter for hardcore ownage

[DeeBye]

I hadn't checked the prices of RAM in awhile, so I checked out some online retailers here in Canada and was blown off of my chair. Not only did I find that RAM was dirt cheap, but the prices here are finally very close to US prices.

I figured this was a good time to check out what a complete system overhaul would cost me. The last time I did this I stopped after the price hit $1000.

The first thing I decided was that it was once again time to go with Intel over AMD. I looked around online for the best motherboard/CPU combo for great performance versus price and built a system around this.

Here's what I came up with:

Gigabyte LGA755 P35 Motherboard $92.99
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 3.0GHz Wolfdale $198.99
Antec Sonata III case with 500W PSU $93.98
Corsair XMS2 2x2GB (4 GB) 6400 RAM $92.99
Western Digital 500GB SATA2 HDD $82.99
LG 20X DVD writer SATA $26.99

Total = $588.93

You'll notice that this lacks a video card, but I'll be using a XFX nVidia 7900GS I picked up for cheap around Christmas. I'll be on the lookout for something nice in the 9X00 line in the future, but I think the 7900GS will do for now.

The only items I was wavering about were the Antec case and WD hard drive. I have an Antec case right now, and while it's a nice case I really disliked the PSU it came with. It developed an annoying high-pitched whine after a while and I had to replace it. The 500W Antec PSU is apparently a very good one, so I'll give it another go. I can always replace the PSU if I have to, I guess. The case looks nice to work in, and it's supposed to be very quiet with the large 120mm case fan. The lockable doors will be fun too.

I went with the Western Digital drive because I've been very happy with the last 3 WD drives I've used. I almost went with the 640GB model, but the price difference was just too great.

I almost went with 4 sticks of 2GB RAM for 8GB total, because I could've done that for less than $200. Then I wizened up and remembered that even 4GB is kinda overkill these days. It would've been nice to brag about 8GB of RAM though :(

Questions, comments, drooling?

EDIT: stupid grammar stuff

[--Pete]

Hi,

Questions, comments, drooling?

Drooling B)

I don't like cases with a cover over the DVDs, but that's a minor point. Overall, it looks great for the price.

Hopefully you'll get as much lurker feedback as I did when I did this exercise a couple of years ago. All the advice I got was good.


--Pete

[Pantalaimon]

The only items I was wavering about were the Antec case and WD hard drive. I have an Antec case right now, and while it's a nice case I really disliked the PSU it came with. It developed an annoying high-pitched whine after a while and I had to replace it. The 500W Antec PSU is apparently a very good one, so I'll give it another go. I can always replace the PSU if I have to, I guess. The case looks nice to work in, and it's supposed to be very quiet with the large 120mm case fan. The lockable doors will be fun too.

Just a small anecdote, but I've always loved Sonata cases. I've owned both the I and II, and they just... purr. So quiet! :shuriken: I've never had PSU issues, but I'm not doing anything crazy like SLI/OC/anything particularly demanding on power, so YMMV there. Mind you, 500W is a little low for SLI, but I disgress.

Price-wise, whee! I'm a Canadian who will be looking for a new system in a few months, so I'm very encouraged:)

[[vL]Kp]

I almost went with 4 sticks of 2GB RAM for 8GB total, because I could've done that for less than $200. Then I wizened up and remembered that even 4GB is kinda overkill these days. It would've been nice to brag about 8GB of RAM though :(

4GB is definitely overkill for how you'll probably be using this machine. Keep in mind that consumer grade 32 bit Windows doesn't make good use of that fourth GB. Supposedly this is because some drivers were prone to BSoD in that situation. 64 bit Windows can use all 4GB (or 8GB), but individual processes will still use quite a bit less. There are surprisingly few real Win64 applications on the market. Most apps that run on Win64 are just Win32 apps using the WOW64 emulation layer that Microsoft provided to keep legacy code running. As such, those apps suffer from most of the same limitations as true Win32 apps.

True Win32 apps can't use more than 2GB of virtual address space in a default boot. Configuration tweaks allow the system to offer a third GB, but iirc, that GB is only used if the program is marked "large address aware". Most aren't. I don't know whether a Win32 app running under WOW64 is given 2GB or 3GB, but I'd guess that it gets 2GB unless the app is marked as "large address aware".

[kandrathe]

I've been thinking of building a new one soon.

I try to aim somewhat below the latest and greatest that everyone must have and pay top dollar for, but rather aim at the tried and true dependable components that will still last 4 years or so. I tend to go for Mfg I like and trust. I like AMD and ASUS for mobo/CPU. I like Sony for DVD/CD, and Seagate for drives. I like Corsair and Kingston for RAM. For the case, PSU, fans, etc, I look for what fits best and has the best reviews. I wanted to go with the AM2 socket, and a reasonably fast processor for it. I like the case to look nice, and I tend to keep them on the desk for show, and I think they suck in less dust and cat hair that way. My goals for my next base unit is that I want the Mobo to be able to upgrade someday to Phenom, and I want to have more choices for GPU technology including SLI if I so desire. I've compared crossfire and SLI, and I think the trend is going SLI. Although, I love ATI, I've also had great luck with NVidia.

Just like Deebye's build, I'm uncommitted on GPU so I'd get a couple inexpensive SLI ones for now. Something like ASUS EN8600GT MAGIC/HTP/512M GeForce 8600GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card for $59.99 (w/ $20 rebate)

So here it my theoretical build so far;

1x Thermaltake Armor+MX VH8000BWS Black Aluminum / Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case $134.99

1x OCZ GameXStream OCZ700GXSSLI 700W ATX12V Power Supply $124.99

1x ASUS M2N-SLI Deluxe AM2 NVIDIA nForce 570 SLI MCP ATX AMD Motherboard $129.99

1x AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+ Windsor 3.0GHz Socket AM2
125W Dual-Core Processor Model ADX6000CZBOX - Retail $153.00

1x ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED 110mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler $53.99

1x Kingston 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)
Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model KVR800D2N5K2/4G - Retail $84.99

2x ASUS EN8600GT MAGIC/HTP/512M GeForce 8600GT 512MB
128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready
SLI Supported Video Card $119.98 ($59.99 ea. w/ $20 rebate)

3x Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3250410AS 250GB
7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive $194.97 ($64.99 each)

1x Sony NEC Optiarc Black SATA DVD-ROM Drive Model DDU1671S $18.99

1x Sony NEC Optiarc 20X DVD±R DVD Burner Black SATA Model AD-7190S $26.99

1x Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound $5.99

Microsoft Windows Vista 32-Bit Home Premium
for System Builders Single Pack DVD - OEM $94.99

Subtotal: $1,148.86
Shipping: $130.39

Edit: Upgraded the RAM to DDR2 800 -- my bad...

[DeeBye]

I like AMD and ASUS for mobo/CPU.

AMD just isn't competitive right now compared to Intel. For me, there was zero reason to go with AMD over Intel. AMD had its day, but right now Intel CPUs are supreme in terms of price versus performance. Check out the CPU charts at Tom's Hardware.

I'm not suggesting that you made a mistake for choosing AMD, because I do think that brand loyalty is important. I just want you to be aware that Intel has technically better CPUs right now.

Just like Deebye's build, I'm uncommitted on GPU so I'd get a couple inexpensive SLI ones for now. Something like ASUS EN8600GT MAGIC/HTP/512M GeForce 8600GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card for $59.99 (w/ $20 rebate)

Haha, I saw that on newegg.com and if I lived in the US I would have been all over it.

I'm not convinced SLI is a good option for anything other than enthusiasts running the latest and greatest video cards. I think there will always be a single card that outperforms two lesser cards in SLI for a better price.

[Wyrm]

I pgraded my PC last year around this time, boy was the selection a lot less than what it is... I went with an 8800GTS 320 because that was the only affordable dx10 option at the time, the ATi/AMD offerings weren't even out yet (if they were, it was only the 2900 XTX, which wasn't really all that great). But oh well, I wasn't exactly able to put the purchase off due to graphics card issues.

I don't like cases with a cover over the DVDs, but that's a minor point. Overall, it looks great for the price.

I'm not sure if I was ever against them, but after having bought one and used it for about 2 years, I don't think I'll ever go back to one without the door due to the amount of sound dampening you get from it. Yes, it's minorly inconvenient having to open the door every time you want to change discs, but these days once you install something you're pretty much done with the discs thanks to virtual drive programs or companies making patches for games so the discs aren't needed anymore. Unless you've got an open case, it's an easy way to get the ambient noise level of a computer down a bit.

AMD just isn't competitive right now compared to Intel.

True, in terms of price:performance ratio, but AMD's BE line is still the most power efficient system there is. I'm not sure what it is in Canada, but the price for electricity here in the states is going up quite a lot these days, so the power consumption of your PC is something worth looking into. Also, in terms of motherboards, the newer AMD and nvidia (not the 700 series) are better than Intel's current offerings. While it's true that AMD can't compete with Intel in the performance area, their ability to keep your power bill down still makes them worth considering for the average buyer that doesn't need a high performance machine.

[DeeBye]

While it's true that AMD can't compete with Intel in the performance area, their ability to keep your power bill down still makes them worth considering for the average buyer that doesn't need a high performance machine.

Screw the electric bill - I want power :shuriken:

EDIT: After further internet research, I need to respond to this a bit more. AMD does not consume less power than the Intel dual core CPUs, especially not the newer 45nm Intel chips.

Take kandrathe's AMD X2 6000+ versus my choice of the Intel C2D E8400. I found a nice review that pits them against each other (and other dual core CPUs).

Here's the power consumption at idle and at load:



You'll see that they are pretty close at idle, but the Intel clearly wins under load.

If you look at the various benchmarks for performance, again the Intel is the winner. I'm not much of an overclocker, but again Intel is the champ in that arena right now.

The AMD CPU is less expensive, but I don't find it's that great a difference ($194.99 versus $153.00 according to newegg.com right now), and that difference in price is offset slightly if kandrathe chooses a less expensive motherboard without SLI capability.

Apologies if I come off sounding like a rabid Intel fanboy here - I'm really not and my last two system were AMD-based out of loyalty. It's just that right now there are very few AMD CPUs that aren't soundly thrashed by Intel.

[Nystul]

When I built my system in January, I went with the same Gigabyte motherboard you are looking at now. To go with a SLI capable system at that time, I would have had to spend almost twice as much on the motherboard, and seriously considered a bigger power supply. So it is $100 to $200 in additional costs for the barebones, and you still haven't bought the second graphics card yet. To that I said, no thanks.

Regarding the cases, even a somewhat loud computer today is so much quieter than the things people were building about 5 years back with 80mm and sometimes even 60mm fans all over the place. The first time I tried to POST my new system, I forgot to plug my monitor to the power outlet, and the system was so quiet that I thought it had failed when it was actually still running.

[DeeBye]

Regarding the cases, even a somewhat loud computer today is so much quieter than the things people were building about 5 years back with 80mm and sometimes even 60mm fans all over the place. The first time I tried to POST my new system, I forgot to plug my monitor to the power outlet, and the system was so quiet that I thought it had failed when it was actually still running.

I really like the idea of a really quiet case, and the Antec Sonata III even has rubber gromit mountings for the drives to isolate any vibration noise from them. Great idea.

I also hope to use the new computer as a HTPC to stream HD stuff to my 42" plasma TV, and having a quiet system will help with that. I even bought a really long DVI <> HDMI cable and audio cables for it from monoprice.com.

Just out of curiosity, what were the rest of your computer parts and would you have changed any of them if you had to do it again?

[kandrathe]

AMD just isn't competitive right now compared to Intel. For me, there was zero reason to go with AMD over Intel. AMD had its day, but right now Intel CPUs are supreme in terms of price versus performance. Check out the CPU charts at Tom's Hardware.

It's always back and forth with those two. I'm encouraged by the release of quad-core Barcelona chips. Generally, I find that AMD offers a better chip cheaper for the CPU power I need at the time. So the AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+ for $153 might be replaced with a AMD Phenom 8450 Toliman 2.1GHz Socket AM2+ 95W Triple-Core Processor Model HD8450WCGHBOX - Retail for $148.99. This is competitively placed between the Intel Core 2 Duo E7200 Wolfdale and Intel Core 2 Duo E8200 Wolfdale. The AMD Phenom 9850 BLACK EDITION 2.5GHz Socket AM2+ 125W Quad-Core Processor Model HD985ZXAGHBOX - Retail sells for $235 which measures on many benchmarks as well as the Intel Core 2 Extreme which retails for $1000 to $1600. For the direction I'm going in Quad core processing, I think AMD is the only way I will be able to afford it.

I'm not suggesting that you made a mistake for choosing AMD, because I do think that brand loyalty is important. I just want you to be aware that Intel has technically better CPUs right now.

Brand loyalty is a part of it, but the one thing I won't change unless it fries is the motherboard, so you have to pick a side. For today, and for 3 years from now when you can upgrade your CPU.

Just like Deebye's build, I'm uncommitted on GPU so I'd get a couple inexpensive SLI ones for now. Something like ASUS EN8600GT MAGIC/HTP/512M GeForce 8600GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card for $59.99 (w/ $20 rebate)

Haha, I saw that on newegg.com and if I lived in the US I would have been all over it.

I'm not convinced SLI is a good option for anything other than enthusiasts running the latest and greatest video cards. I think there will always be a single card that outperforms two lesser cards in SLI for a better price.

I dunno two GeForce 8600GT's in SLI mode for $120 which will get mid 8000's in 3DMark06 and well over 30000 in 3DMark03. It's about 5x better than the machine I have now. What is a comparable $120 card that will do that?

Also check out YouGamers -- The 2008 Guide to Gaming PC Specs.

[DeeBye]

I dunno two GeForce 8600GT's in SLI mode for $120 which will get mid 8000's in 3DMark06 and well over 30000 in 3DMark03. It's about 5x better than the machine I have now. What is a comparable $120 card that will do that?

I was editing an above post when I saw your reply, so bear with me here.

Well, I can't argue that the 8600GTs you list are a great price, but it does come with a $40 rebate. I think I might be able to find a $160 regularly priced card that measures up though.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16814125090

I can't seem to find a review that pits a 9600GT directly against a pair of 8600GTs in SLI, trust me when I say the 9600GT is faster.

[Nystul]

Just out of curiosity, what were the rest of your computer parts and would you have changed any of them if you had to do it again?

CoolerMaster CM690 case
Corsair 450VX power supply
Intel Q6600 with a Tuniq tower on it
WD 750 GB SATA hard drive
EVGA 8800GT
4 x 2 GB A-data DDR2 800
some Samsung DVD-R

I'm planning to buy a new sound card and a new mouse (MX 518 maybe), but I've been strangely unmotivated to spend money for the past few months.

I haven't had any hardware problems or regrets. My thought on the RAM was that in a few years if I could use the extra, it would probably be out of production and more expensive (at least new) than it is now. My thought on the quad core was that I can easily max 4 cores while mixing music. Only time will tell whether either of those thoughts had merit, but the prices were reasonable enough compared to my previous builds. What can I say about video cards... you spend a fortune today and tomorrow there will be a new one and a few weeks later another. Maybe you have the right idea always grabbing the previous gen cards as soon as the bottom drops out. If you do that with video cards and never buy a game until it is 6 months old, you'd save a ton of money on both ends, be able to run everything at max, and never pay $60 for a bad game...

[DeeBye]

CoolerMaster CM690 case
Corsair 450VX power supply
Intel Q6600 with a Tuniq tower on it
WD 750 GB SATA hard drive
EVGA 8800GT
4 x 2 GB A-data DDR2 800
some Samsung DVD-R

I'm planning to buy a new sound card and a new mouse (MX 518 maybe), but I've been strangely unmotivated to spend money for the past few months.

I haven't had any hardware problems or regrets. My thought on the RAM was that in a few years if I could use the extra, it would probably be out of production and more expensive (at least new) than it is now. My thought on the quad core was that I can easily max 4 cores while mixing music. Only time will tell whether either of those thoughts had merit, but the prices were reasonable enough compared to my previous builds. What can I say about video cards... you spend a fortune today and tomorrow there will be a new one and a few weeks later another. Maybe you have the right idea always grabbing the previous gen cards as soon as the bottom drops out. If you do that with video cards and never buy a game until it is 6 months old, you'd save a ton of money on both ends, be able to run everything at max, and never pay $60 for a bad game...

That case is really nice and has tons of space in it. I also like the Corsair PSU and have heard great things about them. Is it modular? I really wanted a modular PSU but the Antec Sonata III that comes with a quality 500W PSU was just too good a deal to pass up. I suppose I can always spring for one down the line.

It's funny that you mention a new mouse and the MX 518 in particular. I was >< this close to adding a Logitech G5 to my order, but bailed out at the last second because $56 is a lot of money for a mouse:(

I use a MX 510 right now and I just can't part with it. The MX 518 is the next step up, and the G5 is the current successor. One of the buttons on my MX 510 is starting to get a little loose and I'm worried it might break completely, but I just can't find a MX 518 or G5 for a decent price (the MX 510 is out of production). I did add a note to my order saying that it would be nice if they added a G5 as a bonus -- who knows?

[Wyrm]

EDIT: After further internet research, I need to respond to this a bit more. AMD does not consume less power than the Intel dual core CPUs, especially not the newer 45nm Intel chips.

Take kandrathe's AMD X2 6000+ versus my choice of the Intel C2D E8400. I found a nice review that pits them against each other (and other dual core CPUs).

I said the BE line when I mentioned power consumption, which the charts you provide don't even list. There's also the new 4x50e chips (also not listed) with G2 stepping. While they can't equal the performance of a higher end processor (the 4850e is closest at 2.5 GHz); if you look at the charts here, you'll see they're still consuming less power than the others, which adds up to roughly $20 USD savings on your electric bill per year.

Getting a bit further off topic: the performance gain of a high end 3GHz CPU over that of a slightly lower 2.6 GHz one isn't really noticable, which can be seen if you look at this article.

[DeeBye]

I said the BE line when I mentioned power consumption, which the charts you provide don't even list. There's also the new 4x50e chips (also not listed) with G2 stepping. While they can't equal the performance of a higher end processor (the 4850e is closest at 2.5 GHz); if you look at the charts here, you'll see they're still consuming less power than the others, which adds up to roughly $20 USD savings on your electric bill per year.

But the Black Edition AMD models are a LOT more expensive than the Intel E8400 I chose. Why should I care about a $20 per year savings on the electric bill when the processor is $100 more expensive?

[kandrathe]

But the Black Edition AMD models are a LOT more expensive than the Intel E8400 I chose. Why should I care about a $20 per year savings on the electric bill when the processor is $100 more expensive?

I think this is a case of comparing apples to apples, and then looking at oranges against oranges. Did you read below where I had said, "The AMD Phenom 9850 BLACK EDITION 2.5GHz Socket AM2+ 125W Quad-Core Processor Model HD985ZXAGHBOX - Retail sells for $235."? My scan of the Intel E8400 is that it costs about $195. I still think AMD measures up well on many benchmarks as well as the Intel Core 2 Extreme which retails for $1000 to $1600. So comparing the Phenom 9850 BE against similiar CPU Intel Core 2 Extreme shows AMD to be much cheaper, and comparing these Intel versus Phenom 9850/9900 BE in power consumption show that these newer BE lines are comparable to Intel to operate. On the high end of the market, Intel does have the edge, but the prices are too high for me to go there.

Here is an article testing the 9850BE, Sharky Extreme -- AMD Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition Review.

[DeeBye]

I think this is a case of comparing apples to apples, and then looking at oranges against oranges.

Probably :)

I will say that the AMD Black Edition CPUs are quite impressive, but I just don't see anything appealing outside of that line.

[kandrathe]

I will say that the AMD Black Edition CPUs are quite impressive...

I'm hoping that the Phenom BE line (as is my stock portfolio) is a turn around for AMD. :) Now that they've moved to proper stepping B3, and worked out some of the energy efficiency stepping. Also there is a plus and minus with AM2+ being a dead end soon. The plus I'm interested in is that the prices on AM2+ will drop severely allowing me to build an awesome machine on the cheap. I'm hoping 45nm and AM3 will reassert some AMD competitiveness. Intel needs a competitor.

[DeeBye]

I'm hoping 45nm and AM3 will reassert some AMD competitiveness. Intel needs a competitor.

The fact that AM3 CPUs will be backwards compatible on AM2 motherboards is a great idea. It will allow incremental upgrades. I was stuck with a s939/DDR1 system and their was no way to upgrade without getting a new CPU, motherboard, and RAM all at the same time. With the AM3 plan, you could upgrade the processor first, then the motherboard, then the RAM and stretch it out over a while.

In the end though, it will all depend on how the AMD CPUs will perform versus the Intel counterparts. Only time will tell.