The Diablo Formula and how Diablo 3 falls short

[Occhidiangela]

Bolty's diplomacy just got tempers cooled. What are you trying to achieve with this?

What is needed.
As I see it.

You don't see it that way?
So be it.

Suggest you go back a few years and read my standard rant on free speech. Tell me, when you've read it, how you really feel about trying to censor a fellow Lounger.

Until then

Cheers

Occhi

I am all in favor of free speech, even stupid speech. But if what is needed is the resumption of the level of discourse we were having in this forum, yes, I fail to see it.

Did you read what I suggested or not?

[LavCat]

this free speech thread,

Bolty's diplomacy just got tempers cooled. What are you trying to achieve with this?

What is needed.
As I see it.

You don't see it that way?
So be it.

Suggest you go back a few years and read my standard rant on free speech. Tell me, when you've read it, how you really feel about trying to censor a fellow Lounger.

Until then

Cheers

Occhi

I am all in favor of free speech, even stupid speech. But if what is needed is the resumption of the level of discourse we were having in this forum, yes, I fail to see it.

Did you read what I suggested or not?

If it was this free speech thread, yes.

[Occhidiangela]

If it was this free speech thread, yes.

While that was a fine bit of nostalgia, thank you very much, my original free speech vignette was on the DSF (perhaps in some farewell post?) and was more or less rehashed about three or four years previous to the thread you linked somewhere on the lounge. It may have died somewhere on the Newtork 54 pile, which I went looking into and copying bits from a few years ago.

Sadly for me, I didn't save to disk, so when the Mother board ate itself and the HD, when the Power Supply blew a few caps, I lost quite a bit of stuff I had stored in a pile.

Not so smart, to forget to back up onto external media.

Hmmm, I think I even polluted RBD forums with some revisit of that.

[LavCat]

If you can find it I am willing to read it.

[ViralSpiral]

Might I suggest archive.org?

[Occhidiangela]

What I was trying to say with that last post is that I thought I could find it, but am now pretty sure I can't.

Sorry about that.

[the Langolier]

I don't think any of the games were designed from the start to have infinite replay.

Actually, that's exactly how they were designed (in theory, not literally). It says it right on the box: "Unprecedented replayability - Diablo creates a unique labyrinth every time you play". That's what made Diablo so innovative. It leveraged random elements and clever algorithms to allow the game to create new content on its own. New content is fun to play; it maintains the player's interest and keeps the game fresh.

A puzzle game relies on someone releasing new puzzles. With D&D they have to publish new adventures. MMOs today follow the same format - the developer has to design and release new areas. The magic of Diablo was that no one had to design new levels. By using a bunch of random elements in series the game came with millions of permutations built-in.

[Jester]

That's what made Diablo so innovative. It leveraged random elements and clever algorithms to allow the game to create new content on its own. New content is fun to play; it maintains the player's interest and keeps the game fresh.

There's a reason they called it a roguelike. Procedural generation was not new - it was just innovative to combine it with an A-list, high-graphics, real-time game.

-Jester

[Occhidiangela]

Real time was a major step forward. I recall reading some interviews with the D I team over a decade ago, on how the decision to go RT was a significant change, and at the time, risk.

Looks like it paid off.

[Archon_Wing]

There's just no future in the economy. The most recent wizard invincibility exploit, which apparently was running rampant for a month seals it. It's too tainted, and without a ladder, it cannot survive.

I can finally beat up stuff in Act 3, and there's no sense of accomplishment. It was either overgeared or undergeared. And why would I bother entering act 4? The drop rates are the same, and the act is too short. There's nothing beyond Act 1 Inferno. It's all a waste of time. Farming for the sake of farming.

Sticking to exclusively hardcore because it's the only mode of game that's any fun. I'm selling everything on my softcore characters and gold to the RMAH. (If anyone wants anything, ask) Once I lose my hardcore characters, if there's still no change by then, then I'm simply uninstalling and never buying another Blizzard product again.

I'm sorry it had to come to this, but this is just how I approach any form of media. When it fails to entertain me to a certain point, there aren't any more second chances.

Let's not get this wrong though. Even though I think that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction, there were definitely worse ways to spend my 60 bucks. And I could meet up with some old friends and maybe raise enough money to buy Guild Wars 2. So let's just leave on that accord if it has to be.

[Jester]

... I'm simply uninstalling and never buying another Blizzard product again.

I'm sorry it had to come to this, but this is just how I approach any form of media. When it fails to entertain me to a certain point, there aren't any more second chances.

Is it not extreme to reject one of the world's best developers, scorched-earth, forever, just on the basis that one of their games got a little frustrating towards the end?

You can spend your money how you like. But as a consumer strategy, this makes no sense to me.

-Jester

[Archon_Wing]

... I'm simply uninstalling and never buying another Blizzard product again.

I'm sorry it had to come to this, but this is just how I approach any form of media. When it fails to entertain me to a certain point, there aren't any more second chances.

Is it not extreme to reject one of the world's best developers, scorched-earth, forever, just on the basis that one of their games got a little frustrating towards the end?

You can spend your money how you like. But as a consumer strategy, this makes no sense to me.

-Jester

Trust me, my gripes are not just with the past 2 months.

I'm afraid the problems with the game go beyond frustration with end game content (I already got to the last point in the game which matters and am doing fine, so this isn't a difficulty issue-- I toughed it out pre-patch, after all.), but the fiasco that is battle.net 2.0 as well as well as their approach to changing and maintaining the game, which doesn't just include Diablo 3. Sure, I understand that not everything is perfect, and we need to keep patching, but the prioritizing is atrocious. I understand that change must be gradual, but Blizzard has done nothing but wide swinging changes that have made the game worse patch after patch. I don't think having a feeling of moving slowly forward isn't deserved is it? Because I feel like every day this game is slipping further and further down. There's no more "wait and see" because honestly I don't want to see what happens next, just like with SC2. They nerf this and nerf that, and meanwhile random people are dying randomly to desecration pools that they never would before, spam bots run unchecked, and the interface across the game remains underdeveloped and cumbersome. People pay out the ass in repair costs, and seeing one for 15k when you don't die just gives me a headache.

How can one expect change in a positive direction, when the changes made are clearly ones out of desperation and methods completely wrong? Not that I claim to be some kind of video game master, but no change should involve the numbers 50% or higher without extensive testing. If I could give the Starcraft II team any praise, it was that they were willing to make small changes and let it seep in.

It's not that the endgame is merely frustrating, it's that it doesn't exist. Starcraft II was somewhat lacking in my mind, and I have no interest in WOW. Besides, the team that made Diablo 2 is gone, so, I have no brand loyalty, really nor do I see a reason for things to get better. You could argue it is unfair, but to me it's the last straw. My friends list is consistently dead through the day, so I'm not the only one.

Whatever it is, it's clear that whatever they are aiming at doesn't include me. I'll just have to accept this fact, and also this board could use less of my ranting anyways. :p

I would like to thank the Auction House and random pubbies for keeping the game alive as long as it did, and it's making hardcore a bit more worthwhile. But I fear we're at a crossroads.

[smegged]

It's sad that the premiere Diablo 2 website's forum is now filled with people bemoaning the fact that Diablo 3 isn't keeping them entertained.

I'm assuming that many of those who have stopped posting on here (like Sirian) have also stopped playing. I know that even Bolty has stopped. This is not a healthy situation. Blizzard forgot that it's never the first impression that people remember, but the last. The leveling game is quite fun, but only once per class. The auctionhouse item economy is broken (they did not learn the right lessons from WoW about that). Inferno should never have been invented. The fact that Inferno exists means that Blizzard didn't put enough thought into making the earlier parts of the game more replayable.

Where are the low level sets and uniques (for comparison, think what finding Frostburns meant to a sorcerous in Diablo 2)? The items don't sparkle, but they're supposed to be the drawcard (as there's no other way to improve your character once you hit 60).

Maybe Diablo 3 is better than Diablo 2, but maybe the world has moved on from hack and slash adventures. I really don't know. All I know is that these forums have been very, very quiet lately and I can't ever remember them being this quiet for years after Diablo 2 came out.

[Yricyn]

$60 retail price / 300 hrs play time = $0.20/hr

Twenty cents an hour. How many times did you walk into an arcade in the 80's drop in a single quarter and play for an hour? Even if Diablo 3 doesn't deliver everything one might hope for, its hard to argue that it didn't deliver value. For my own sake, I have less time in total with my purchases of the God of War series and 2 of the Elder Scrolls titles which probably cost me $250.

[Archon_Wing]

$60 retail price / 300 hrs play time = $0.20/hr

Twenty cents an hour. How many times did you walk into an arcade in the 80's drop in a single quarter and play for an hour? Even if Diablo 3 doesn't deliver everything one might hope for, its hard to argue that it didn't deliver value. For my own sake, I have less time in total with my purchases of the God of War series and 2 of the Elder Scrolls titles which probably cost me $250.

I'm not saying that Diablo 3 delivered 0 value. I'm saying that it holds no future potential for value from what I can see, which is why I would continue it. And trying to quantify entertainment is silly at best, since does anyone enjoy all of the time played? Most of the stuff was just busy work to get to the "good stuff" which didn't last too long. I also bought Civ IV and expansions for about $15 and spent more than 500 hours on that. 15/500= $0.03 ? And that game had tons of memorable moments even though it was a very flawed game.

Besides, if we were to quantify it like that... then I would say Diablo 2 is 10x the game as Diablo 3 so... :p

And I guess you're asking the wrong person, since I never liked playing at arcades. :S

[Treesh]

Is it not extreme to reject one of the world's best developers, scorched-earth, forever, just on the basis that one of their games got a little frustrating towards the end?

You can spend your money how you like. But as a consumer strategy, this makes no sense to me.

-Jester

They were one of the best and I probably have more blizzard games than any other developer's (except for possibly Bethesda), but they've shown me through the changes to WoW over the years, the direction they took on SC2, and the direction they took with D3 (and what they've said they have planned), they are no longer developing games that appeal to how I want to play. They may still be one of the top dogs in game development, but they are no longer able (or maybe just willing) to make games for how I like to play. Did I get my money's worth out of D3? Sure, but the fact that I stopped playing before I even found another game to pull my attention away from D3 means I really wasn't enjoying it as much as I have their past titles. Maybe there have just been too many personnel changes in the company and maybe I've changed from what I want in games as well, but the fact remains that I just don't have faith in Blizzard making games that I will enjoy for years anymore (I didn't even make it very many months for this last one) and for that, they won't be getting my money after this. Hell, I stopped supporting EA flat out after just one non sports title on the PC because of how immensely frustrating and annoying it was, both installing and playing. I've given Blizzard quite a few chances over the years of watching the sledgehammer approach to balancing, gameplay, etc. This was just the last time.

Edit: I just realized that it's only been 2 months, a little over. That's it. Maybe I didn't really get my money's worth after all. Yeesh. Still, I'm not pissed I bought it, but I could have spent it on something else that was more necessary. Ah well.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

$60 retail price / 300 hrs play time = $0.20/hr

Twenty cents an hour. How many times did you walk into an arcade in the 80's drop in a single quarter and play for an hour? Even if Diablo 3 doesn't deliver everything one might hope for, its hard to argue that it didn't deliver value.

It's not that easy. I used to think so myself, until I bought Civ V and Diablo 3. I had played Civ IV and Diablo 1+2 until I burnt out on these games. I felt I got more than my money's worth out of these games because after I had stopped playing, I still regarded them as damn fine games and had very good memories about them. The only reason I had stopped playing was because I had seen all that could be seen and tried all I wanted to try with these games, *not* because I got frustrated with them. Heck, I even returned to all three games after a longer pause to play them again!

With Diablo 3 (and Civ V), it's different. Here I stopped playing because I got frustrated and bored, both by fundamental problems with the game design and mechanics. I still haven't seen all there is to see, but I don't care - it's no fun. I was deeply disappointed. So the memories I will hold about these games will more be about bad game design, frustration, rage-quitting and unfun moments, which leads to the feeling of wasted money - at least for me.

-Kylearan

[Yricyn]

And trying to quantify entertainment is silly at best

I agree, even though I did just that. I guess my point was, I don't boycott a vendor unless they rip me off. I find it hard to classify Diablo 3 as a rip off, even if it didn't deliver on the scale we all hoped it would based on prior iterations in the franchise.

To put it another way, I've lost interest in the Boston Red Sox this year. They are an underwhelming team of underperformers and has beens for the most part. Compared to recent history this team is middling at best, horrible is more likely how most fans would describe them. I've stopped watching them this year. But I will probably come back to them next year. Now in sports fandom this is derogitorilly referred to as being a "fair weather fan". My perspective is that the current iteration is not worth a further investment of my time. When you get back to your proven formula for success, I will invest again.

[Lissa]

Is it not extreme to reject one of the world's best developers, scorched-earth, forever, just on the basis that one of their games got a little frustrating towards the end?

You can spend your money how you like. But as a consumer strategy, this makes no sense to me.

-Jester

They were one of the best and I probably have more blizzard games than any other developer's (except for possibly Bethesda), but they've shown me through the changes to WoW over the years, the direction they took on SC2, and the direction they took with D3 (and what they've said they have planned), they are no longer developing games that appeal to how I want to play. They may still be one of the top dogs in game development, but they are no longer able (or maybe just willing) to make games for how I like to play. Did I get my money's worth out of D3? Sure, but the fact that I stopped playing before I even found another game to pull my attention away from D3 means I really wasn't enjoying it as much as I have their past titles. Maybe there have just been too many personnel changes in the company and maybe I've changed from what I want in games as well, but the fact remains that I just don't have faith in Blizzard making games that I will enjoy for years anymore (I didn't even make it very many months for this last one) and for that, they won't be getting my money after this. Hell, I stopped supporting EA flat out after just one non sports title on the PC because of how immensely frustrating and annoying it was, both installing and playing. I've given Blizzard quite a few chances over the years of watching the sledgehammer approach to balancing, gameplay, etc. This was just the last time.

Edit: I just realized that it's only been 2 months, a little over. That's it. Maybe I didn't really get my money's worth after all. Yeesh. Still, I'm not pissed I bought it, but I could have spent it on something else that was more necessary. Ah well.

I think I can sum up your thoughts a little bit, and this is why I'm not willing to do much with Blizzard at the moment (maybe in the future), Blizzard has gone from a company that cares about their players and the quality of their games to how much money they can make. Simply, when Vivendi bought Activision and then merged Activision and Blizzard together, they royally fucked over the Blizzard culture. Blizzard's culture of making great games has been greatly diminished and been replaced mostly by the "we need more money for our daily money bath!" The things that have happened with D3, with SC 2 (I don't hold much hope for the storylines in Swarm or Void), and WoW have shown to me that Blizzard doesn't care about their games anymore, just how much money they can make.

[Treesh]

I think I can sum up your thoughts a little bit, and this is why I'm not willing to do much with Blizzard at the moment (maybe in the future), Blizzard has gone from a company that cares about their players and the quality of their games to how much money they can make. Simply, when Vivendi bought Activision and then merged Activision and Blizzard together, they royally fucked over the Blizzard culture. Blizzard's culture of making great games has been greatly diminished and been replaced mostly by the "we need more money for our daily money bath!" The things that have happened with D3, with SC 2 (I don't hold much hope for the storylines in Swarm or Void), and WoW have shown to me that Blizzard doesn't care about their games anymore, just how much money they can make.

I'm not willing to say that though. There are still plenty of people who DO enjoy their games and there's also the fact that if people don't enjoy the games then they simply won't spend their money on it so paying attention to making enjoyable games IS part of it still. They're just catering to a different type of gamer than what I am now so I'm not going to be supporting them anymore.