Why Dex-based classes are terrible.

[ViralSpiral]

Dodge suffers higher diminishing returns than Strength (armour) and Int (resists), making dex-based chars (Monk, DH) much harder to progress as, since in addition to Dex/Vit, they need either or both of Str/Int or nearly divine kiting skills in order to have the Inferno level of defence.

[Archon_Wing]

Well, the Monk does have a passive that gives you armor for every point of dex you have, and thus the high amount of mitigation they receive is very swell. Though dodge does suffer from diminishing returns badly.

Is the monk terrible? Maybe. :p

[Athenau]

This is backwards. Dex scales better than strength or int. Hit chance scales linearly with more points (though dodge is tiered, a piece-wise linear function is still linear on its intervals), and effective HP scales superlinearly with more points in dex. More precisely EHP(dex) has a limit of infinity as dex approaches 8000 (since at 800 dex you have 100% dodge which is infinite EHP).

Strength and int damage mitigation scales sublinearly, and EHP scales linearly with points in str and int.

The reason why dodge is worse than the other two as the primary form of mitigation is because it's probabilistic. Given the damage output of enemies in inferno, you never want to be in a situation where a couple of unluckly rolls means death.

[ViralSpiral]

If you manage 8K dex, I want to see your bank account after. That aside, and dealing with realistic numbers, the point stands that the dex classes have been having the hardest time because their form of mitigation relies the most on kiting being your actual damage mitigation. But considering the number of times monsters spawn right on top of you, or attacks hit you for a couple of seconds before you can get out of the damage radius (that starts directly beneath you 100% of the time because demons have both impeccable aim and table manners) you end up where you're going to have to take a hit or two sometimes.

Are there any undodgeable attacks? My top evasion has been 16%ish and that's not enough for me to consider reliable for testing.

End result though is that while most classes can get away with +main stat/+vit gear, the dexers - particularly the DH - also need a third stat to be reliably lower their damage intake. I've been trying to figure why people have complained the most about Monk and DH in Inferno and I'm pretty sure this is the common link.

[Zombie]

Hey man, dex based character's aren't terrible. DH and Monk's both have ways to make it work. If you want to find faults, then they're there in each class. I happen to think Demon Hunter's are the best and most fun class in the game. Don't have any problems staying alive on him at all, even in Hell. Just got to know how to use what you got to survive.

[Athenau]

My point is that there's nothing wrong with dex scaling. At no point will dex give less mitigation than str/int (averaged over time), it's just that said mitigation is unreliable when enemies can five or six shot you, because the chance of getting a series of unlucky rolls becomes significant.

[ViralSpiral]

Hey man, dex based character's aren't terrible. DH and Monk's both have ways to make it work. If you want to find faults, then they're there in each class. I happen to think Demon Hunter's are the best and most fun class in the game. Don't have any problems staying alive on him at all, even in Hell. Just got to know how to use what you got to survive.

How about in Inferno? Because that's where I see the complaints start and that's what I'm discussing. I'm pretty sure all the classes are viable up to and through Hell, even if some of them have certain skills required rather than all skills being viable as per the design goal.

[Zombie]

How about in Inferno? Because that's where I see the complaints start and that's what I'm discussing. I'm pretty sure all the classes are viable up to and through Hell, even if some of them have certain skills required rather than all skills being viable as per the design goal.

Same with Inferno. Nothing's impossible, man, just have some patience with it and don't rush through things. All the classes have ways to survive.

[Concillian]

The issue with DEX in inferno doesn't really have to do with the scaling.

The issue is that it's an on-off switch. This works okay for damage mitigation when you take lots of little hits. But a demon hunter doesn't take lots of little hits. A DH takes a few LARGE hits. The on-off switch mechanic breaks down when it's relatively common to be able to get a streak of hits in a row that will kill you.

The issue is with the class design, and I've said it many times before, the DH is an avoidance class in a game designed around ensuring you get hit and requiring mitigation. As far as I'm concerned, the class does not fit well with the game mechanics and will always feel out of place as a result.

[Archon_Wing]

End result though is that while most classes can get away with +main stat/+vit gear, the dexers - particularly the DH - also need a third stat to be reliably lower their damage intake. I've been trying to figure why people have complained the most about Monk and DH in Inferno and I'm pretty sure this is the common link.

Monks don't. >.> Like I said above, a passive lets them double Dex as Str already. Strength is nice, but I hardly care about it. Plus they have the one with other passive that changes all your resists to the highest one. Thus, a Monk can get away with only Dex and Vit for stats.

The real complaint about the monk is that they have no innate spirit regeneration which leads to trouble if you can't build it up because you can't easily build them off top mod.

[Lissa]

Hey man, dex based character's aren't terrible. DH and Monk's both have ways to make it work. If you want to find faults, then they're there in each class. I happen to think Demon Hunter's are the best and most fun class in the game. Don't have any problems staying alive on him at all, even in Hell. Just got to know how to use what you got to survive.

How about in Inferno? Because that's where I see the complaints start and that's what I'm discussing. I'm pretty sure all the classes are viable up to and through Hell, even if some of them have certain skills required rather than all skills being viable as per the design goal.

The isssue with DHs in inferno isn't that they're Dex based that's the problem, the problem is they have no real mitigation outside of using Shadow Power - Gloom, which expensive to use and only lasts a short time. As such, DHs are required to kite, kite, kite and this becomes a real problem as even with 10% to 12% run speed boots, a normal mob that is turned into a Champion or in a Boss pack with the fast attribute can outrun said DH (thus catching them without judicious use of either Vault or something that snares) or a fast mob (like spiderings, imps, and scavengers) which easily catch said DH even without gaining the fast attribute if a Champion or a member of a Boss pack.

Blizzard made Inferno require mitigation, but didn't give one class, the DH, true mitigation. This is the crux of the problem with the DH and not an issue with Dex.

Likewise, of all the base stats, Int is the worst if you've not a Wizard or Witch Doctor as it takes 10 Int to get 1 resist all. So to equal to items with 60 or more resist all, it would take 600+ Int to get the same effect (and the best I've ever seen to date is 270ish Int).

[ViralSpiral]

But see, they'd have more mitigation if they had more str/int. That's my entire point is they have no stat mitigation. Your point is they have no skill mitigation. The end result is they just don't mitigate at all. But yes, int gives a kind of raw deal compared to items, but then everything is a raw deal compared to resist all, but they couldn't have made int better than resist all or we'd all need it, too.

Although I do admit I like that every stat has some kind of use to every class, even if it's a small effect. I know every time I see "dodged!" I give thanks to whatever dex is on my gear. Goodness knows my base amount is crap. :op

[Lissa]

But see, they'd have more mitigation if they had more str/int. That's my entire point is they have no stat mitigation. Your point is they have no skill mitigation. The end result is they just don't mitigate at all. But yes, int gives a kind of raw deal compared to items, but then everything is a raw deal compared to resist all, but they couldn't have made int better than resist all or we'd all need it, too.

Although I do admit I like that every stat has some kind of use to every class, even if it's a small effect. I know every time I see "dodged!" I give thanks to whatever dex is on my gear. Goodness knows my base amount is crap. :op

Well, you're also better off getting +armor on an item that getting Str if you're not a Barbarian as you tend to get more +armor than you would +Str out of an item.

Being that as it may, every class, except DH, has mitigation powers either through meat shields -- not great ones mind you in Inferno (Witch Doctor) -- or through actual active and passive skills. The DH has 1 (!) active skill with a specfic rune (Shadow Power - Gloom) to give them mititgation for a short period of time at a fairly steap resource cost (10 Discipline which DHs only get 30 base at a 1 second refresh rate unless you get +discipline off items to increase max discipling, grab a passive that gives you back 2 discipline per health globe, or run another skill slot to get all discipline restored every 45 seconds through preparation). Simply, DHs have no effective mitigation in an area that requires mitigation (and both Quark and Bolty can affirm what happens to me when I get multipe mobs in hand to hand with me, I'm sure I've helped them quite a bit along on getting to 250 players rez'd).

[ViralSpiral]

Spirit Walk is plenty for me, speaking for WD. So long as I'm not totally surrounded, since for some reason my spirit still seems to need to respect the laws of physics and not pass through other bodies. Aside from that minor snafu, it does plenty to save my bacon. I stopped bothering with various zombies at L22 and don't intend to use them again. Even in Normal they die pretty easily if I'm ever attacking something other than what they are in melee with.

I do load up Fetish Army for act bosses, though. For some reason Diablo in particular finds the littler buggers endlessly fascinating and pretty much always goes after them instead of me if that's an option for him.

[RogueMage]

...the DH is an avoidance class in a game designed around ensuring you get hit and requiring mitigation.

Not necessarily. While it's true Demon Hunters have no native advantages in damage mitigation, they can make up for it with firepower-fueled health recovery. Here's a link to my solution for soloing Belial, Azmodan, and Diablo as well:

http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d3/forums/...-1000-dps/

[Roland]

...the DH is an avoidance class in a game designed around ensuring you get hit and requiring mitigation.

Not necessarily. While it's true Demon Hunters have no native advantages in damage mitigation, they can make up for it with firepower-fueled health recovery. Here's a link to my solution for soloing Belial, Azmodan, and Diablo as well:

http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d3/forums/...-1000-dps/

Try that in Inferno and then tell me how great it works.

I grow weary of people saying how the DH class is not fundamentally flawed when they've never tried to take it through Inferno - solo.

[RogueMage]

Try that in Inferno and then tell me how great it works.

So Blizzard's "Inflato" mode is the only valid benchmark in your estimation? What exactly does Inflato mode prove beyond one's willingness to shop for overpriced, absurdly overpowered gear on AH? And why should I help Blizzard beta-test their crap-shoot insta-kill zerg-fest? As far as I'm concerned, everything we've seen so far is SC spring training until some future patch delivers a tolerably balanced HC challenge.

[Concillian]

http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d3/forums/...-1000-dps/

Lots of stuff works in NM that doesn't work at inferno. It breaks down when things can kill you in 1-2 hits.

In nightmare, it's relatively easy to get the defensive gear to reduce hits to the point where it will take 10+ hits to kill you. DEX / dodge breaks down when stuff can kill you in 3-4 hits.

It is simply not possible for a DH to gear defensively enough to do this in inferno (solo), because there are no lasting +% armor or resists buffs. You simply cannot reach the level of mitigation necessary for this kind of build to work in inferno without other classes buffing you armor and/or resists.

[Concillian]

Try that in Inferno and then tell me how great it works.

So Blizzard's "Inflato" mode is the only valid benchmark in your estimation?

Examples of the breakdown come from where the system actually breaks down.

Dodge works as mitigation when you are getting hit in small chunks (NM, for example). Dodge does not work when you are getting hit in gigantic chunks (Inferno).

The issue doesn't exist in NM, so the examples of the problem don't come from NM.

[FireIceTalon]

The issue with DEX in inferno doesn't really have to do with the scaling.

The issue is that it's an on-off switch. This works okay for damage mitigation when you take lots of little hits. But a demon hunter doesn't take lots of little hits. A DH takes a few LARGE hits. The on-off switch mechanic breaks down when it's relatively common to be able to get a streak of hits in a row that will kill you.

The issue is with the class design, and I've said it many times before, the DH is an avoidance class in a game designed around ensuring you get hit and requiring mitigation. As far as I'm concerned, the class does not fit well with the game mechanics and will always feel out of place as a result.

QFT.

Wizard > DH. By light years.