Basic Math - The Failure of Diablo Melee

[MongoJerry]

Wyatt Chen's response to the melee versus ranged issues:

(We thought this was a great question, too. Unfortunately, our developers were unable to address it with as much detail and depth as they wanted before the AMAA ended. They thought it was a really relevant concern, though, so when I brought up the topic again to Wyatt Cheng today, he took some time to write up the following response.)

I'll state up front that I do think there's a disparity between melee and ranged, and I would like to see that closed. I feel like if I talk a lot about thought processes and design philosophy and don't state this up front people will lose the forest for the trees and conclude we think everything is fine. So I'll say it again: melee vs. ranged disparity is not fine, changes are being made, and even if you disagree with the approach outlined below we can hopefully have the common ground that the current situation needs improvement.

It may not look like it on the surface, but a large number of the changes in 1.0.3 are actually targeted at closing the melee/ranged gap. Let me go through some of them.

Hardcore: I'm going to use Hardcore as a starting point. In Hardcore, there's actually a reasonable distribution of classes, and I don't think the melee vs. ranged disparity is as large. There are a lot of Hardcore players of every class in Inferno without a huge disparity. Why is this important? It's because a significant portion of the melee/ranged disparity is related to a ranged character's ability to progress even while dying. A melee player can throw themselves at a monster and die, doing almost no damage to an elite enemy. A ranged player can do a huge amount of damage to an elite enemy, die, respawn, and basically attrition the enemy down with repeated deaths. In the Hardcore environment where a single bad Mortar, Vortex, Jailer, or Reflects Damage will kill a glass cannon-ranged character, the disparity between ranged and melee is an order of magnitude less.

Repair Costs: One of the more controversial changes in 1.0.3 is the increased repair costs. The design intent of these increased repair costs is to make death more meaningful. One of the top arguments we see against the increased repair costs is "I'm already dying dozens of times to make any progress in Inferno. Don't you see this is going to make this impossible?" This concern is most often brought up by ranged glass cannons. Many melee players respond "increased repair costs seem fine" because they haven't been using death-zerging as a tactic. Melee can't easily death-zerg an enemy down, but ranged can. I don't think the answer is to make death-zerging more attractive for melee; I'd rather make death-zerging a less profitable strategy for ranged.

Enemy Health and Damage: We're also looking to adjust the damage and health of enemies in Inferno Acts II, III, and IV. This is another change that is primarily for melee with secondary benefits for ranged. A lot of ranged are building glass cannon with the mentality "well, I'll just try not to get hit at all." So, reducing incoming damage when they weren't taking any before isn't significant for them, whereas reducing incoming damage for the melee is a big deal. For the ranged classes, I'm hoping that the incoming damage reduction will make some survival stats more appealing to ranged classes. While before the damage was so large it just felt pointless to try and mitigate any of it at all, after the change hopefully ranged classes will think "well, if I just put on a modest amount of survivability, I don't get 1-shot, so that's worth it." There are some ranged players who are already doing this -- stacking survivability so they don’t have to endlessly kite -- and it just feels like the minimum amount of survivability to avoid the 1-shot is so large it's unattainable. That's one of the things 1.0.3 seeks to address.

Damage Reduction in Co-op: Another change which is targeted at improving life for melee is the reduction in co-op damage. Again, since many ranged players just build glass cannon and avoid damage completely, they didn't really care if incoming damage went up as other players entered the game, but the melee characters really noticed. It was very easy for your life-on-hit to have you at a steady equilibrium, but as soon as another player entered the game your life-on-hit was no longer covering the incoming damage and death became imminent.

Additional Changes: And finally, there are always minor polish adjustments designed to help melee -- such as the AI on some monsters (BEES!!!) being tweaked to run away less often, which again helps melee more than ranged. I actually spent some extra time the other day to make sure if a Sand Wasp runs away from you, and you start chasing the wasp, it doesn't turn and shoot 4 bees in your face (hopefully that makes 1.0.3). I'm also working with one of our gameplay engineers to make it so if you sidestep the Dark Berserker’s power hit (where he brings his giant mace down), he doesn’t turn to track you as he swings (though that change probably won't make 1.0.3). These kind of AI adjustments are things ranged players don’t even notice, but are huge for melee.

Another adjustment being made is increasing both the maximum range and the dead zone of Mortar. Mortar was specifically designed to be an anti-range affix, but many ranged players would just stand even farther away, whereas melee would sometimes get caught in the cross-fire of two Mortars. Increasing the maximum range and the dead zone helps with both of these.

[Archon_Wing]

Well, that was nice to read. So I guess this thread has proved its point. :p

[ViralSpiral]

I'm surprised they didn't make what (to me) would be one of the more obvious changes to put ranged in slightly more danger; slightly decrease (or leave alone) melee attack animation speeds, while increasing the speed of enemy missiles. Melee intends to close the distance anyhow, meaning that barring something holding them in place, they won't suffer as much from speedier projectiles (and are more likely to have a shield), whereas increased missile speed makes kiting more skill intensive and/or requires more ability to take a couple of hits, at least.

[Roland]

I'm surprised they didn't make what (to me) would be one of the more obvious changes to put ranged in slightly more danger; slightly decrease (or leave alone) melee attack animation speeds, while increasing the speed of enemy missiles. Melee intends to close the distance anyhow, meaning that barring something holding them in place, they won't suffer as much from speedier projectiles (and are more likely to have a shield), whereas increased missile speed makes kiting more skill intensive and/or requires more ability to take a couple of hits, at least.

There's only two kinds of missiles: those you can dodge, and those you can't. Making all missiles faster would only make one kind. As it stands the hitboxes on characters are pretty terrible. You can get hit by missiles (or melee) from close to 10 yards away.

Besides, did you miss the part where they admitted that ranged are so difficult to spec defensively that it's virtually not worth it, because it feels no matter what you do you'll get 1-shotted?

Yeah, I'm with Mavfin on this one.

[ViralSpiral]

Well the hitboxes sound like a bug - and I didn't see them mentioned in the 35 things thread or the reddit interview, so it's hard to tell whether they're working as intended or not. I've only seen one video of a ranged character in action, and it was the one here in the Inferno for Dummies video, which had very few projectile using enemies.

I've seen the parts where people have said the _Demon Hunter_ has been hard to do a defence spec for, but no one seems to have that problem with Wizards. That seems more like a class-specific problem than just ranged in general.

And no, making all missiles faster would not make only one kind, if it was only a slight increase - I'm talking like 10% faster, not turning all enemy projectiles into railguns. Consider, for example, D2 shamans versus Abyss/Oblivion Knights. The Shaman projectiles are so slow that there's almost no excuse to be hit with them as a ranged character, unless there's 5-6 of them with you in a crossfire (which you would have had to get into by unwise tactical positioning to begin with) whereas the Knights have fairly speedy projectiles by comparison - nothing that's utterly undodgeable, but you definitely have to be paying attention, unlike the Shaman projectiles you can easily sidestep.

Good to see your support for a guy who can't ever admit to making mistakes combined with a mob mentality, though. That makes me think so much more highly of your opinions. You aren't the same Roland who moderates the Giant in the Playground forums, are you?

[Elric of Grans]

I read something a while ago that Blizzard were addressing bugs with the hitboxes, which I can only assume is precisely this.

Wizard has defence-oriented Passive and Active Skills. The Demon Hunter has no defence-oriented Passive Skills, and Smoke Screen is the main defensive Active Skill (Vault/Evasive Fire do not even begin to compare, and Shadow Power is still vastly inferior). It is clear the Demon Hunter was designed to only be playable as a glass canon, then the game is filled with things that punish you for playing a glass canon; the Wizard has very obvious Tank Mage options that allow them to function perfectly fine.

[FireIceTalon]

After getting my ass handed to me about 5 straight times by Rakinoth on nightmare with my Wizard (until I figured out using Diamond Skin with Crystal Shell rune was the only way to survive), I have to conclude that the whole "melee classes in D3 are underpowered" gospel is a myth. Rather, it is the other way around - RANGED classes are the ones who get screwed more. My Barb has had NO trouble with any of the bosses in the game except Azual, which took me 3 attempts to beat (just had to do some skill adjusting). Butcher, Belial, Azmodan, Rakinoth, and Diablo all have been easily defeated by my Barb thus far. Ranged classes do ok vs SOME of these bosses, but the Act 4 bosses in general are EXTREMELY difficult for Wizards and DH's - Rakinoth is especially brutal with that one-hit kill teleport (which is not telegraphed, so there is no way to avoid it - regardless of how much you move). So, I don't know where all this talk that melee classes get screwed in this game comes from - My Barb has dominated thus far much more than either my Wiz or DH - especially the latter. Ranged classes in D3 are waaaaaay too fragile for my liking - though at least my Wiz I get a few defensive skills that can make the impossible, to be possible.

[BellaStrega]

That's strange. My mage on nightmare Rakinoth didn't even have diamond skin in her skill slots. I melted him down very quickly with archon's disintegrate and the actual disintegrate skill.

Actually, I had very little trouble in act IV nightmare on my wizard. But, it's not really possible to draw conclusions about which classes are the best or worst from nightmare, especially not from one person's experiences. My run in act IV nightmare on my monk had some frustrating bosses and champions (morlu incinerators with anti-melee affixes like plagued, molten, and desecrator, for example) but Hell was comparatively easy.

[FireIceTalon]

Well, in Inferno, all classes have it pretty equally rough. Inferno is just a troll-fest/gear check by Blizz to screw with the players, and nothing more. But in normal through hell, I'm pretty sure melee classes have it a bit easier. In the case of Barb, you just put Revenge, Ignore Pain, the fury generator that best suits the situation (Bash for act bosses, Cleave or Frenzy for just about everything else), Leap or Furious Charge, WotB, and its GG.

One spell that I like to use on Wiz that I rarely see people try out is Arcane Nova. Does REALLY big dmg, and its great for both a single target or AoE effect. I guess it's not as fancy or aesthetic as the typical Disintegrate or RoF users that you see all the time in pubbies, but it does quite a bit more dmg in general, and with the Galvanizing Ward passive it is quite efficient in terms of resource management, since normally Arcane Orb is very resource demanding. Venom Hydra and Blizzard are a pretty lethal combo for big crowds, at least in nightmare. My Wiz just started hell, so I will find out soon enough how effective it is there.

You must have been very lucky as far as Rakinoth goes, cause I always have trouble with him when I use a ranged class - usually to the point where I have to co-op in a pubbie to be able to advance. At any rate, I really hope DH somehow gets rectified, they are in desperate need of dmg reduction passives or "armor/tanking" skills that can at least make them survive a couple more hits.

[MongoJerry]

One spell that I like to use on Wiz that I rarely see people try out is Arcane Nova. Does REALLY big dmg, and its great for both a single target or AoE effect. I guess it's not as fancy or aesthetic as the typical Disintegrate or RoF users that you see all the time in pubbies, but it does quite a bit more dmg in general, and with the Galvanizing Ward passive it is quite efficient in terms of resource management, since normally Arcane Orb is very resource demanding. Venom Hydra and Blizzard are a pretty lethal combo for big crowds, at least in nightmare. My Wiz just started hell, so I will find out soon enough how effective it is there.

Arcane Nova works well, and since various Arcane Orb builds are quite common, I don't understand your snide comments. The problem with Arcane Nova is as you mentioned the fact that it's a huge resource hog. I assume you meant Astral Presence rather than Galvanizing Ward, which doesn't have anything to do with AP. However, that's not enough to offset the AP problems. And that's the problem. If you start having to add in Prodigy or Power Hungry or both to give you enough AP to use it properly, then you end up giving up a lot in the process. I used Arcane Nova for a long time and then finally gave Tap the Source a try to lower the resource cost and breathed a great sigh of relief. Tap the Source orbs may not have the radius of Arcane Nova orbs, but they are far more spammable and I've found them to be much more effective in fights.

[FireIceTalon]

Snide? Sorry if I came off that way, wasnt my intention.

Yes, Astral Presence is the one I was thinking of. AP is almost a given really for any Wiz if you ask me. I have to agree about Tap the Source, I was trying it out recently and its probably the way to go in the long run. That, along with Glass Cannon, AP, and Blur as your passives has to be one of the sickest all around builds. But Galvanizing Ward maybe worth considering over GC or Blur if you use Energy Armor alot, which I'm sure many Wiz's do. I certainly do, though I am undecided still if GW should be a cornerstone passive or not.

[BellaStrega]

Well, in Inferno, all classes have it pretty equally rough. Inferno is just a troll-fest/gear check by Blizz to screw with the players, and nothing more. But in normal through hell, I'm pretty sure melee classes have it a bit easier. In the case of Barb, you just put Revenge, Ignore Pain, the fury generator that best suits the situation (Bash for act bosses, Cleave or Frenzy for just about everything else), Leap or Furious Charge, WotB, and its GG.

I don't know about normal through hell and melee.

A couple of days ago I took a barbarian from act III normal to act I nightmare, and I had to pause upon entering Arreat Crater to upgrade my gear as I was losing life far too quickly.

I am taking my witch doctor through the same area now, and she's not having any trouble, just melting everything with acid cloud. It may be that she has better gear already, though.

Actually, being as this is my fourth character through this part of the game, I think that gear has a larger impact on how easy or difficult the game is than the specific class. I ran into a lot of troubles on my monk that other monks haven't, and you ran into problems on your wizard that I haven't. It may be related to build choice, or gear, or tactics, or a combination of any two or all three of those.

One spell that I like to use on Wiz that I rarely see people try out is Arcane Nova. Does REALLY big dmg, and its great for both a single target or AoE effect. I guess it's not as fancy or aesthetic as the typical Disintegrate or RoF users that you see all the time in pubbies, but it does quite a bit more dmg in general, and with the Galvanizing Ward passive it is quite efficient in terms of resource management, since normally Arcane Orb is very resource demanding. Venom Hydra and Blizzard are a pretty lethal combo for big crowds, at least in nightmare. My Wiz just started hell, so I will find out soon enough how effective it is there.

I've used obliteration fairly frequently. I hadn't noticed when I unlocked arcane nova. However, I do find it really nice for clearing crowds, although I often also use the venom hydra/blizzard combination.

A friend of mine still uses venom hydra and blizzard in inferno, and says it works fairly well for him.

You must have been very lucky as far as Rakinoth goes, cause I always have trouble with him when I use a ranged class - usually to the point where I have to co-op in a pubbie to be able to advance. At any rate, I really hope DH somehow gets rectified, they are in desperate need of dmg reduction passives or "armor/tanking" skills that can at least make them survive a couple more hits.

I was experimenting with mirror image at the time and had teleport/fracture and mirror image/duplicates, so I was alternating those during the fight. I mostly used shock pulse/piercing orb and arcane orb/obliteration after archon expired, and had magic weapon/force weapon for my sixth skill.

I may have been lucky, or had better gear, or my spells worked better in the fight, or whatever.

Also, on the passive side: I tend to use glass cannon, astral presence, and evocation. I mainly used evocation in tandem with archon, but I don't usually think to swap it out.

[MongoJerry]

For passives, I use glass cannon, astral presence, and Temporal Flux (30% snare on arcane damage). For certain key boss fights where the snare isn't important, I'll swap in Blur for Temporal Flux. I just haven't been sold on Galvanizing Ward, yet. Maybe when I'm in Inferno and have 10 minute kiting sessions, I'll start liking it a lot.

[Bolty]

I have to conclude that the whole "melee classes in D3 are underpowered" gospel is a myth. Rather, it is the other way around - RANGED classes are the ones who get screwed more.

It's all gear. But in the long run, you are correct. In the end, after this game's been out a long time and gear curves have flattened, melee are going to rule the game as long as the current ruleset plays out. Yes, I'm aware that the next major patch is going to change things some, but not drastically enough to change the dynamic.

Ranged classes gear up enough defensively to be able to take a few hits before they die. They are unable to become "tanks" in the sense that they can avoid the kiting game. They have to kite everything.

Melee classes are forced to gear and spec enough defensively to be able to take lots of hits, because the only way they can kill anything is via a method that exposes them to these hits. As they gear up, the number of hits they can take expands, to the point where they can jump into crowds of champions and rares and just eat the damage while killing them. It stands to reason that once a melee class is geared enough to be able to do this in Inferno Act 4, balance is gone and ranged classes will be inferior. This is precisely why you're seeing Barbarians lead the pack in Inferno hardcore clearing. If they're geared enough, they can take 10 times the abuse the ranged classes take. If they're not geared enough, they can take 0 times the abuse the ranged classes take, and are unable to contribute to any fight.

Blizzard interviews pointed out something they're seeing in softcore mode: ranged classes have a distinct edge in the "death run" method of killing bosses, because they're able to res, get some hits in, die, res, get some hits in, etc. Melee res, run in, die practically instantly, etc, because they can't kite. So in softcore, it's the ranged characters that advanced the fastest and "beat" the game first. In hardcore, which forces you to play much, much more slowly and carefully, the gear curve leaves melee dominant due to the defensive abilities they're forced to have.

[BellaStrega]

I think I'll give Temporal Flux a go, given I am currently running around with arcane orb.

My wizard's life just got easier. I had stashed a 419 dps level 60 staff with -6 to level requirement and hit level 54 a bit ago. Everything is back to melting.

[NotSoDarklord]

It stands to reason that once a melee class is geared enough to be able to do this in Inferno Act 4, balance is gone and ranged classes will be inferior.

If the current trends continue Demon Hunters will be one shotting every elite, champion, and trash mob in Act IV inferno. At that point the argument between which class or playstyle is superior becomes a bit subjective, especially in the context of softcore where an occasional death is a small price to pay for fast clearing.

[ViralSpiral]

Yeah, in playing around with the character builder on the D3 site, Galv Ward, Illusionist, and Temporal Flux struck me as the "duh" choices for passives. They look the best on paper, anyhow. Evocation is the only other one that looked appealing to me at all. Maybe something like http://tinyurl.com/87lsplw where there's three sources of Arcane damage to work with Flux, nothing costs over 20 AP, and your signature spell generates 4 AP (I don't know numerically exactly how many max AP L60 Wizards have, but I know the armour I picked lowers it by 20 and I see skills that cost 60) so it seemed in theory that you'd be more likely to run into issues with cooldowns than running out of AP with any major frequency.

Question - if you used Mirror Image with Mirror Mimics, would they gain the benefit of your Temporal Flux, or just the 10% damage? If they gain the benefit, that might be better than the 2 second stun from Mocking Demise.

The Prismatic Armour rune is the only thing over L45, too, so most of the build falls into place before Inferno, getting time to practise in.

[FireIceTalon]

Is there a list anywhere, of the resistances that particular monsters have? Would be pretty awesome to see so you can arrange your skills accordingly. Right now I just keep a lightning based attack (Electrocute with Chain Lightning rune), a Arcane attack (usually Orb), a cold attack (Blizzard), and a poison based attack (Venom Hydra) available so monsters are usually fragile toward at least one of my attack types. I guess it doesn't really matter though, since no monsters are completely immune to any type of element as they were in previous games - besides Invulnerable Minions of course.

[ViralSpiral]

Yeah, having heard there were (and will, apparently) be no immunities, I didn't bother being diverse with that build, instead taking advantage of my passives as much as possible - to the point of specifically switching the Hydra to Arcane just to keep the snare benefits rolling in. I almost put Slow Time in the Hydra slot instead but decided that at 15 lousy AP, why not use the Hydra?

[Archon_Wing]

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff247...hot019.jpg

I ran into this as my monk and died instantly. Wonder what a demon hunter if they ran into this would think besides "Why do I play this game?" :p