Basic Math - The Failure of Diablo Melee

[Archon_Wing]

I finally broke down when I got to act 2 inferno and bought a 700 dps/dex/vit sword for my monk for 90k. I just can't see how one can get through without spending a ton on the auction house. But the same applies to my friends in other classes.

90k is "a ton"? I can make almost double that in an hour on a good run, not counting whatever I make in sales off the AH (which is virtually nothing, but occasionally I can get another 10 - 25k). I agree, you will need to spend a significant amount of gold in order to advance. Or, as has been stated, farm repeatedly until luck favors you. Or a combination - farm for gold and items, sell the stuff you don't need on the AH, and eventually take all that "free" money and sink it into items you do need off the AH.

While farming for gold I've found 2 very nice upgrades for my character - one a socketed ring with 1% higher IAS and +75 Vit, and a Perfect Square Emerald actually makes it boost my damage (and dodge, however slightly). The other are a nice set of gloves with over 100 Dex, some Vit, and most importantly +Res all. I lose my 14% IAS on my old gloves, but gain life and damage reduction, and with the above ring + Emerald I actually came out ahead in DPS anyway. It IS possible to find good items farming Act I Inferno - it just takes a long time. Of course, you could always take all those crappy items you find and melt them down (vendor the sub-59 ilvl ones for gold), then use the crafting materials to craft something potentially better. It's a gamble, yes, but from what Chesspiece is saying the stats on the top-level crafts seem to be weighted toward Inferno difficulty. So, even if you don't get something that's usable by you, you should be able to sell it on the AH, and turn enough of a profit to be able to buy something useful.

I truly don't understand the abhorrence of the AH. This isn't D2 people. The game was designed around this very concept. It's an integral part of the game. Is it the only way to acquire gear? Absolutely not. It certainly can be the most efficient way, however. Does it make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside? No, you don't get that big rush of hitting the jackpot like you do when finding or crafting a good item. So what? Diablo and Diablo II both had plenty of crap items (especially once LoD came out). People spent loads of time farming for gold to gamble, and doing Mephisto and Pindle runs for gear. It's no different here, only here you can do other things in order to acquire solid gear: you can craft it with all the gold and materials you collect along the way, and you can buy it off the AH - a secure way of trading with other players, virtually hassle free, with no risk of scams or dupes or anything else that plagued D2. If people want to stick to the old ways of playing "pure," or Live-off-the-Land style that's their prerogative. Just don't expect the game to be bent around you.

If "great" items dropped any more frequently the economy would implode in a short period of time. As it is 90% of the gear out there (save for ones with specific affixes, i.e. top-end gear needed to advance through Inferno) is "junk" anyway that can be acquired for a song - if it wasn't vendored or salvaged. It's not like gold is that hard to acquire, either. An hour or two a day could easily net you 200k, plus materials to craft with if you're already in Inferno. You're odds of crafting gear that you need are almost guaranteed to be better, simply because you get to choose the base item and number of mods on it (2-3 if it's Magical, 4-6 if it's Rare).

Well... umm good for you then! Thanks for the lecture, but my curiosity was more towards how we got people into inferno farming all these items in the first place.

I know the AH is a part of the game; I've made quite a few posts detailing on why it's a good thing. Except the ton isn't just 90k because it's not going to allow me to advance past act 2. This 90k is just a stopgap weapon that lets me deal with act 1 inferno adequately so I can go farm my valor stacks or whatever. I will most likely have to spend a lot more per slot to do it. I was just not finding any good deals, and wanted to wait some more, but whatever.

[Elric of Grans]

Well... umm good for you then! Thanks for the lecture, but my curiosity was more towards how we got people into inferno farming all these items in the first place.

Two groups:
1) Exploited broken (now nerfed) builds to get to Act IV/Inferno, where they farmed for their own top-end gear. This group would have then held the top-end market at the Auction House.
2) Those who bought top-end gear from the Auction House to advance through Inferno, eventually farming gear of their own to put up for sale.

[Athenau]

My biggest problem with using AH gear to advance in inferno is that the gear almost certain comes from one or two acts ahead. My ~650 dps blue 1-hander, for example, wouldn't drop in act I AFAICT which is kinda ridiculous. It's one thing to trade for items that you could (theoretically) find yourself given enough time, it's another to trade for stuff that's way more advanced than you "should" be getting at that point in the game.

Essentially, I'm relying on other players to push forward into the game before me just so I can make progress.

[Roland]

This 90k is just a stopgap weapon that lets me deal with act 1 inferno adequately so I can go farm my valor stacks or whatever. I will most likely have to spend a lot more per slot to do it. I was just not finding any good deals, and wanted to wait some more, but whatever.

If it makes you feel any better, I've been farming Act I Inferno for gold and items, and will probably have to sink at least 1 million plus before I comfortably advance into Act II. Already I'm looking at dropping over half a million on two items, one for a direct upgrade and one for an upgrade / sidegrade (I lose Vit + Armor, but gain enough Res All to come out net positive). My weapon could use improving, and if I had a spare 500k (which is about what the aforementioned items will cost me) I'd snatch that up for some more DPS. Not sure if I'll have enough time (and energy) to farm up that much cash before the auction ends, so hopefully something else will come along.

As for how people get so far... who knows? Maybe we've got it all wrong, taking our sweet time advancing through Inferno. Maybe it's easier once you get past the hump of Act I and II, where the drops are more plentiful, the cash flows more freely, and the combination allows one to craft magnificent items. That's another thing to consider - a fair portion of the items I see on the AH are the same base type as some Exalted Crafts, and it's not like you have to be in Act IV Inferno to farm materials.

I'm trying to enjoy my time in Inferno, despite being "stuck" in Act I. Buying the occasional upgrade is nice, and I'm finally starting to feel comfortable enough to maybe venture beyond into Act II. I know my DPS isn't quite where I want it to be, but high-damage bows that have sockets, large +Dex, and life steal are rare enough as it is - before adding +Vit on as a requirement. FWIW my ~627 DPS bow seems to be doing fine in Act I, and I've managed to squeak above 19k DPS with some recent acquisitions. I've kept the two sockets in my pants open, so I can either drop ~76 more Dex or Vit (or half of each) depending on whether I need the added offense, or defense.

Sorry for the "lecture." It was more generally directed, but I used your post as the springboard.

My biggest problem with using AH gear to advance in inferno is that the gear almost certain comes from one or two acts ahead. My ~650 dps blue 1-hander, for example, wouldn't drop in act I AFAICT which is kinda ridiculous. It's one thing to trade for items that you could (theoretically) find yourself given enough time, it's another to trade for stuff that's way more advanced than you "should" be getting at that point in the game.

Essentially, I'm relying on other players to push forward into the game before me just so I can make progress.

I put up on the AH a ~450 DPS 1H Witch Doctor weapon (not great stats, not terrible - forget if it had a socket or not) that I found in Act I Inferno. I've seen 500+ and 600+ DPS 2H drop there, as well. 650 DPS on a blue sounds plausible for Act I, and if not certainly Act II. I've never seen one on a Vendor, but then they're supposed to supply you with items one "tier" below yours - so if you were already sporting something better it's plausible that a Vendor could have sold that item.

[Athenau]

I put up on the AH a ~450 DPS 1H Witch Doctor weapon (not great stats, not terrible - forget if it had a socket or not) that I found in Act I Inferno. I've seen 500+ and 600+ DPS 2H drop there, as well. 650 DPS on a blue sounds plausible for Act I, and if not certainly Act II. I've never seen one on a Vendor, but then they're supposed to supply you with items one "tier" below yours - so if you were already sporting something better it's plausible that a Vendor could have sold that item.

The best 1H I've found so far was a 500 dps rare. But you might be right. The best 2H I found was actually a 776 dps 2H-er. And looking at the mods, the 2-hander has a +147-364 holy damage mod, and my blue 1-hander from the AH has a +162-374 holy damage mod. All these blue AH weapons get their damage from a single big +elemental damage suffix, so it seems like damage in that range may be able to spawn on Act I drops. Which makes me feel a little better.

[NotSoDarklord]

Maybe it's easier once you get past the hump of Act I and II

Parts of acts III and IV can be farmed while dead in full MF gear relying entirely on Tyrael to solo mobs. The only challenge becomes finding a sufficient number of forums to browse while waiting for free loot.

[ViralSpiral]

I've kept the two sockets in my pants open

That sounds dirty for some reason.

[Archon_Wing]

This 90k is just a stopgap weapon that lets me deal with act 1 inferno adequately so I can go farm my valor stacks or whatever. I will most likely have to spend a lot more per slot to do it. I was just not finding any good deals, and wanted to wait some more, but whatever.

If it makes you feel any better, I've been farming Act I Inferno for gold and items, and will probably have to sink at least 1 million plus before I comfortably advance into Act II. Already I'm looking at dropping over half a million on two items, one for a direct upgrade and one for an upgrade / sidegrade (I lose Vit + Armor, but gain enough Res All to come out net positive). My weapon could use improving, and if I had a spare 500k (which is about what the aforementioned items will cost me) I'd snatch that up for some more DPS. Not sure if I'll have enough time (and energy) to farm up that much cash before the auction ends, so hopefully something else will come along.

As for how people get so far... who knows? Maybe we've got it all wrong, taking our sweet time advancing through Inferno. Maybe it's easier once you get past the hump of Act I and II, where the drops are more plentiful, the cash flows more freely, and the combination allows one to craft magnificent items. That's another thing to consider - a fair portion of the items I see on the AH are the same base type as some Exalted Crafts, and it's not like you have to be in Act IV Inferno to farm materials.

I'm trying to enjoy my time in Inferno, despite being "stuck" in Act I. Buying the occasional upgrade is nice, and I'm finally starting to feel comfortable enough to maybe venture beyond into Act II. I know my DPS isn't quite where I want it to be, but high-damage bows that have sockets, large +Dex, and life steal are rare enough as it is - before adding +Vit on as a requirement. FWIW my ~627 DPS bow seems to be doing fine in Act I, and I've managed to squeak above 19k DPS with some recent acquisitions. I've kept the two sockets in my pants open, so I can either drop ~76 more Dex or Vit (or half of each) depending on whether I need the added offense, or defense.

Sorry for the "lecture." It was more generally directed, but I used your post as the springboard.

Well, as you know the Lounge is home to people that always manage to do the impossible, coming off with ideas that I never knew existed or wearing ridiculous gear setups that would seem like suicide. If someone ever succeeds with the "naked" achievements, I think I know where to look. :p

And yea 500 dps weapon or higher should get you through act 1 and toast the butcher or whatnot easily. It's just that my new weapons makes those elite packs more managable and so I can refresh my valor a bit more. I don't know anything about pricing AH items, like I would need some advice on what items to throw to the vendor or salvage bin and such.

How much gold would I expect to invest in the blacksmith? I only have him up to level 5 atm, since I got distracted with other things and the escalating prices were a bit much. But on the other hand I have a growing stack of inferno essences.

I knew certainly that when I rolled a monk, I would get the short end of the stick. But I'm not complaining about melee being a failure yet.

[MongoJerry]

You can also farm goblins.

[Roland]

How much gold would I expect to invest in the blacksmith? I only have him up to level 5 atm, since I got distracted with other things and the escalating prices were a bit much. But on the other hand I have a growing stack of inferno essences.

Eh... it gets pricey pretty quick from about level 6 or 7 onwards. It quickly ramps up to about 10k a tier (so 40k), plus another 15k for the final tier at one point (I forget which level) - so that's 55k. Before long it hits up to 80k (4x 15k, plus 20k), and then it hits the realm of 100k IIRC. Plus all the Pages / Tomes of Blacksmithing / Tomes of Secrets required to increase the level. The Jewelcrafter is far cheaper to max out.

Personally, I waited until I was already in Act I Inferno before maxing out my Blacksmith, and even then I'm fairly comfortably farming the Butcher but have yet to craft a single level 60 piece of gear. Crafting materials, specifically the Iridescent Tear, are probably going to be your biggest bottleneck. Gold may not be plentiful, but it's easy to farm enough gold for a single craft in one half-hour Warden / Butcher run. Hit upon a good enough craft, and you can sell it on the AH for much more than you paid to create it. Of course, that really only helps you buy more off the AH currently, because again crafting materials are the biggest limiter, and there are no commodities for sale on the AH currently.

I knew certainly that when I rolled a monk, I would get the short end of the stick. But I'm not complaining about melee being a failure yet.

Try a Demon Hunter before you talk to me about "the short end of the stick." Invulnerability? On-Demand heals? Armor buff? Resistance buff? The Monk is the closest thing to God mode you're going to find in D3.

[Athenau]

Invulnerability? On-Demand heals? Armor buff? Resistance buff? The Monk is the closest thing to God mode you're going to find in D3.

Those "on-demand" heals don't scale at all, and the armor and resistance buffs (which you have to sacrifice damage for and aren't out of line with what other classes get) hardly compensate for being exposed to the most dangerous threats in the game, repeatedly. Let's not pretend that melee doesn't have serious problems in this game. Hell, switching my monk over to a hybrid ranged template was probably the single most beneficial change I made in Inferno.

[Archon_Wing]

How much gold would I expect to invest in the blacksmith? I only have him up to level 5 atm, since I got distracted with other things and the escalating prices were a bit much. But on the other hand I have a growing stack of inferno essences.

Eh... it gets pricey pretty quick from about level 6 or 7 onwards. It quickly ramps up to about 10k a tier (so 40k), plus another 15k for the final tier at one point (I forget which level) - so that's 55k. Before long it hits up to 80k (4x 15k, plus 20k), and then it hits the realm of 100k IIRC. Plus all the Pages / Tomes of Blacksmithing / Tomes of Secrets required to increase the level. The Jewelcrafter is far cheaper to max out.

Personally, I waited until I was already in Act I Inferno before maxing out my Blacksmith, and even then I'm fairly comfortably farming the Butcher but have yet to craft a single level 60 piece of gear. Crafting materials, specifically the Iridescent Tear, are probably going to be your biggest bottleneck. Gold may not be plentiful, but it's easy to farm enough gold for a single craft in one half-hour Warden / Butcher run. Hit upon a good enough craft, and you can sell it on the AH for much more than you paid to create it. Of course, that really only helps you buy more off the AH currently, because again crafting materials are the biggest limiter, and there are no commodities for sale on the AH currently.

I knew certainly that when I rolled a monk, I would get the short end of the stick. But I'm not complaining about melee being a failure yet.

Try a Demon Hunter before you talk to me about "the short end of the stick." Invulnerability? On-Demand heals? Armor buff? Resistance buff? The Monk is the closest thing to God mode you're going to find in D3.

I guess I'll need more tears before crafting. Too bad, battle.net forums tears don't count.

And I guess god mode is taking 2 more hits with much less DPS ability and inability to take out enemies from off the screen. But alas, the grass... ;')

Standard Tier Levels for any game to determine overpoweredness
1.) Whoever is in the most recent official news for the game
2.) Someone else
3.) Someone else
4.) Your best friend
5.) Someone else
6.) You

[Athenau]

I also like how demon hunters get to dual wield a 2-handed weapon AND a quiver.

Hey blizzard, why can't I dual wield Daibos?

[Roland]

Those "on-demand" heals don't scale at all

And healing potions do? The Templar's heals do?

and the armor and resistance buffs (which you have to sacrifice damage for and aren't out of line with what other classes get) hardly compensate for being exposed to the most dangerous threats in the game, repeatedly.

Which the Demon Hunter flat out doesn't get. The ONLY class without any buffs available to them. As for low DPS, melee can survive with 14k DPS in Inferno. At just shy of 20k DPS, I can't do enough damage to mobs at the entrance to Act II before they can kill me. Offense is the only defense a ranged class has, especially a Demon Hunter, because we flat out can't tank the damage. Monks and Barbarians can. Even Wizards can better than a Demon Hunter.

Let's not pretend that melee doesn't have serious problems in this game. Hell, switching my monk over to a hybrid ranged template was probably the single most beneficial change I made in Inferno.

Let's not pretend that the Demon Hunter has it any better - trust me, they don't.

[BellaStrega]

Try a Demon Hunter before you talk to me about "the short end of the stick." Invulnerability? On-Demand heals? Armor buff? Resistance buff? The Monk is the closest thing to God mode you're going to find in D3.

While I heal ~60ish life per spirit spent, and I can recover spirit quickly, those heals are not very large when compared to both my health pool and the hits I take. My actual heal skill is on a cooldown, and my invulnerability is a 4-second window during which I can use my life on hit to recover health and hopefully get back to full.

The monk is not god mode at all. You should give it a go in inferno before saying something like this. I won't deny that in the first act I tend to survive better than other players I group with (including monks), but my gear and build is tuned for that survival. And all of that survival buys me seconds at most when I'm in melee range with bosses and champions.

[Roland]

The monk is not god mode at all. You should give it a go in inferno before saying something like this. I won't deny that in the first act I tend to survive better than other players I group with (including monks), but my gear and build is tuned for that survival. And all of that survival buys me seconds at most when I'm in melee range with bosses and champions.

Alas, it seems the art of tongue-in-cheek is lost upon you. So sad...

[Elric of Grans]

For what it is worth, the Demon Hunter does have a brief `god mode' in Smoke Screen. 1.5 seconds a pop, two goes a time (three with some +discipline gear), Preparation to double that (triple 1/3 of the time); in mob situations, Multishot with Suppression Fire can feed an extra use or two. There is a reason many people claim the Demon Hunter is the most over-powered class of them all.

Of cause, the Demon Hunter has no other good points whatsoever, just that one, ever-so-slightly (situationally) over-powered build.

[Treesh]

Try a Demon Hunter before you talk to me about "the short end of the stick." Invulnerability? On-Demand heals? Armor buff? Resistance buff? The Monk is the closest thing to God mode you're going to find in D3.

While I heal ~60ish life per spirit spent, and I can recover spirit quickly, those heals are not very large when compared to both my health pool and the hits I take. My actual heal skill is on a cooldown, and my invulnerability is a 4-second window during which I can use my life on hit to recover health and hopefully get back to full.

The monk is not god mode at all. You should give it a go in inferno before saying something like this. I won't deny that in the first act I tend to survive better than other players I group with (including monks), but my gear and build is tuned for that survival. And all of that survival buys me seconds at most when I'm in melee range with bosses and champions.

Don't forget the healing mantra that you can run under all those.

Of course, it doesn't help things that I keep telling Roland my monk is easy mode. =) I've gotten out alive in far more situations than I really should have since I am a horribly reckless player on my monks. Well, I should say that I'm even MORE reckless on the monks. I'm reckless with all of the classes. I am proud to say that I did get the monk achievement for dodging 15 attacks in a row WITHOUT using any of the increase dodge skills. It was just her normal setup, not even fists of thunder with lightning flash. Saved my butt as I got trapped in a wall with a group of fire chained monkeys. I'm sure in inferno I'll struggle like everyone else, but I will still continue to say the monk is easy mode. =)

[BellaStrega]

Alas, it seems the art of tongue-in-cheek is lost upon you. So sad...

I can't see your tongue or your cheek from this vantage. It's not lost upon me but it's easy to miss that something is supposed to be a joke. I blame Poe's Law and all the time I spend on the Incgamers Diablo forum.

Don't forget the healing mantra that you can run under all those.

I actually run Conviction/Overawe. I seriously did not notice a change in survivability when I switched from healing.

Of course, it doesn't help things that I keep telling Roland my monk is easy mode. =) I've gotten out alive in far more situations than I really should have since I am a horribly reckless player on my monks. Well, I should say that I'm even MORE reckless on the monks. I'm reckless with all of the classes. I am proud to say that I did get the monk achievement for dodging 15 attacks in a row WITHOUT using any of the increase dodge skills. It was just her normal setup, not even fists of thunder with lightning flash. Saved my butt as I got trapped in a wall with a group of fire chained monkeys. I'm sure in inferno I'll struggle like everyone else, but I will still continue to say the monk is easy mode. =)

In inferno? I die less than everyone else all the time. I had a couple of friends who were slowly working their way through Hell until the blood of Zoltun Kulle, at which point I joined them. I didn't realize it at the time, but was told that I basically carried them from there to act IV, as my own somewhat reckless playstyle and ability to survive it sped up their play considerably.

Regarding dodge, I actually dropped Fists of Thunder/Lightning Flash for Fists of Thunder/Thunderclap because I got tired of chasing things. I also dropped the passive that gave me +15% dodge for dual wielding for One With Everything, which seemed to make more of a difference to my survivability.

[FireIceTalon]

Those "on-demand" heals don't scale at all

And healing potions do? The Templar's heals do?

and the armor and resistance buffs (which you have to sacrifice damage for and aren't out of line with what other classes get) hardly compensate for being exposed to the most dangerous threats in the game, repeatedly.

Which the Demon Hunter flat out doesn't get. The ONLY class without any buffs available to them. As for low DPS, melee can survive with 14k DPS in Inferno. At just shy of 20k DPS, I can't do enough damage to mobs at the entrance to Act II before they can kill me. Offense is the only defense a ranged class has, especially a Demon Hunter, because we flat out can't tank the damage. Monks and Barbarians can. Even Wizards can better than a Demon Hunter.

Let's not pretend that melee doesn't have serious problems in this game. Hell, switching my monk over to a hybrid ranged template was probably the single most beneficial change I made in Inferno.

Let's not pretend that the Demon Hunter has it any better - trust me, they don't.

Agree with all of this 100%. DH is such a underpowered and frail class, its ridiculous. If anything even touches us once, we are usually dead or close to it. I've been playing my Barb and Wiz, and I'm astounded at how much easier (and more fun) they are. DH has the potential to be an awesome class, but I really think Blizz needs to go back to the drawing board with how this class is designed - it is a class that is too item dependent with too many weaknesses. You can get pretty much the same DPS on a Wiz - except you get much better defensive skills, better overall crowd control skills, less item dependency (especially on resist all items, since Intelligence is your main stat as a Wiz), and perhaps most importantly, a much faster regeneration on your resource sytem. Alot of people say Wiz and DH are the two strongest classes, but I see no comparison between the two. Both are ranged classes that do high DPS, but that is where the similarities end: Wiz is grossly OP, and DH is grossly UNDER POWERED. This has been a tradition in the Diablo series though - casters are always OP, while ranged/bowers are always weaker. The same was true in D1 and D2.

And then you have Barbarian - which is the definition of over powered: with automatic 30% dmg reduction, loads of dmg reduction skills, attack rate/crit rate/armor increase boosts, and so on. Sure, some mobs are a nightmare to face (id imagine waller, arcane sentry, health link and plagued is quite nasty for any melee char), but at least they can survive a few hits - and cheezy affixes like vortex, fast, and teleporter dont mean as much since u usually fight in close quarters anyway.

I really regret making DH as my first 60 char, because the Inferno brick wall has left a sour taste in my mouth. My Barb and Wiz are currently in nightmare only, but they are having a much easier time with it than my DH ever did - though to be fair I also have a much greater understanding of the game now then back when I was lvling my DH in very first days of the launch. But If this is any indication, I would imagine they will fare better in Inferno than my DH currently is. DH is just a weak, fragile under powered class, that only has a huge DPS potential going for it really. That being said, they could be an awesome PvP class because they probably have the highest overall DPS potential, but in terms of PvM, they are the weakest class for sure. I get the feeling alot of the trouble I am having with Inferno is in part to the class I am playing, though I do not doubt that Inferno is unbelievably tedious for any class - just extra so for DH's.