Basic Math - The Failure of Diablo Melee

[Treesh]

Not true - Zeal was unplayable crap prior to expansion, before it was capped to 5 hits (and didn't cause the entire series of attacks to miss as soon as any of them missed.)

And yet I defeated Hell Diablo...on Hardcore with a sword and board zealot. Tell me again how it was crap and unplayable?

IIRC the Javazon was prior to LoD too.

Jab, you mean, not javs. Javs didn't count as melee. Jabazon did. =)

[Tal]

Not true - Zeal was unplayable crap prior to expansion, before it was capped to 5 hits (and didn't cause the entire series of attacks to miss as soon as any of them missed.)

And yet I defeated Hell Diablo...on Hardcore with a sword and board zealot. Tell me again how it was crap and unplayable?

IIRC the Javazon was prior to LoD too.

Jab, you mean, not javs. Javs didn't count as melee. Jabazon did. =)

Aye - you're right.

Was the all zon group pre-LoD too?

[Treesh]

Not true - Zeal was unplayable crap prior to expansion, before it was capped to 5 hits (and didn't cause the entire series of attacks to miss as soon as any of them missed.)

And yet I defeated Hell Diablo...on Hardcore with a sword and board zealot. Tell me again how it was crap and unplayable?

IIRC the Javazon was prior to LoD too.

Jab, you mean, not javs. Javs didn't count as melee. Jabazon did. =)

Aye - you're right.

Was the all zon group pre-LoD too?

That one I don't remember for sure, but I think it spread out over both pre and post LOD.

[Archon_Wing]

I made it to hell with a melee character (monk) without knowing that stacking mantras or that cyclone thingy. I didn't know there was such a thing as an elective mode and it didn't seem too bad in act 1 hell in multiplayer games. Granted I'm killing a bit slow in these games, but my dps on my weapon is 185.

In any case, it's not just about HP. Resist (that includes physical resist) and defense also serves as damage reduction. 17k seems awfully low though. That was hardly enough for nightmare. My wizard friend has 40k... and can tank. I really don't think extremely low health and using a 2 hander is an argument for making melee not viable. It's more of an mathematical argument that such an arrangement leads to failure.

On the other hand, certain boss combinations make the game feel like the difficulty is too inconsistent, and not fun. The other problem are that monsters are way stronger in party games and don't give enough to compensate for it. The drops suck so badly that there's no point in trying to kill these guys.

However, I think inferno will be probably the most broken one. But that's for all classes without AH'd gear.

[ViralSpiral]

Not true - Zeal was unplayable crap prior to expansion, before it was capped to 5 hits (and didn't cause the entire series of attacks to miss as soon as any of them missed.)

And yet I defeated Hell Diablo...on Hardcore with a sword and board zealot. Tell me again how it was crap and unplayable?

IIRC the Javazon was prior to LoD too.

I'd love to see your account of this because I don't honestly believe you managed pre-LoD to take a Zealot all the way through - excepting maybe if you were twinked. Post-LoD, sure. Pre? Don't see how you'd have gotten past Iron Maiden with a score of uncontrolled swings, or have beaten down Diablo when his block rate would make your entire flurries miss, without it taking an hour or two. And even then, that doesn't make the build good, merely possible. Ember was possible. She wasn't good.

[Tal]

I'd love to see your account of this because I don't honestly believe you managed pre-LoD to take a Zealot all the way through - excepting maybe if you were twinked. Post-LoD, sure. Pre? Don't see how you'd have gotten past Iron Maiden with a score of uncontrolled swings, or have beaten down Diablo when his block rate would make your entire flurries miss, without it taking an hour or two. And even then, that doesn't make the build good, merely possible. Ember was possible. She wasn't good.

When did the Lounge become only about what was possible and good? I thought this was the place where the Varient Scum™ hung out in the D2 days?

You know the days of singing barbs, melee sorcs, grenade barbs, etc - I remember those days. I'm still trying to figure out what days you and Sirian are remembering.

[ViralSpiral]

Well last I checked, we were discussing the viability of melee. In D1, the Warrior was viable - granted, it took more skill and different tactics than the other classes, especially if one shunned telekilling and such. There was a fair bit of gear farming required, whereas Mages could famously go Beyond Naked. But it could be done, and comfortably. Yes, a good deal of this had to do with the ability to endlessly spam instant full heal potions, but even they couldn't save you from being stunlocked if you did something stupid.

D2, there were a hundred problems melee had to cope with that ranged characters had little or nothing to do with. AR, clvl-mlvl curve, attacks like Infero and (post LoD) Arctic Blast. ITD attacks, which ranged characters kited. Two of the three ranged classes had their own brands of Golem, and Paladins had Conversion for temporary meat shields. The other class had Teleport. Then there's the reliance on gear drops, which of course weighed more heavily on anyone attempting melee. Nevermind the constant exposure to hard-hitting attacks, whereas a skilled ranged played could make it through entire areas without losing a single hitpoint. We won't even discuss 'Zons, who had the advantages of both range and benefiting from Leech mods.

And yeah, those of us here are generally above average players, but running melee in D2 is an exercise in pure masochism; there's no benefit to doing it. You can do it for the challenge if you like. Bragging rights, if it please you. But what few extra hp you might get from Vitality doesn't do enough to negate your constant exposure to danger. To say nothing of MSLEBs. Remember when it was INSTANT DEATH to melee them if you were even one pixel out of one of the safe areas from those ludicrous sprays? How FEBs would slaughter you instantly if you didn't block with your shield? D2 was a studying in screwing melee backwards and forwards. About the only substantial benefit was that little gap in Diablo's lightning hose.

Sirian's point is he doesn't want the same to be true in D3 and he fears it is and/or will be. I echo the sentiment because I prefer melee if the option is on par with ranged, because knowing myself for a skilled player, and playing with people who - aside from those I know from here or AB - are less skilled than myself, I like the idea of protecting them. So I'd like to be able to hunker down with a shield and let my buddies do their best Van Helsing impressions with dual crossbows or fling about a few sprays of magic if such is their wont. But it's not going to be fun for me if I'm going to have to spend as much time kiting as they do. Then I'm not doing my job, and I'm not having fun.

[Tal]

Well last I checked, we were discussing the viability of melee. In D1, the Warrior was viable - granted, it took more skill and different tactics than the other classes, especially if one shunned telekilling and such. There was a fair bit of gear farming required, whereas Mages could famously go Beyond Naked. But it could be done, and comfortably. Yes, a good deal of this had to do with the ability to endlessly spam instant full heal potions, but even they couldn't save you from being stunlocked if you did something stupid.

D2, there were a hundred problems melee had to cope with that ranged characters had little or nothing to do with. AR, clvl-mlvl curve, attacks like Infero and (post LoD) Arctic Blast. ITD attacks, which ranged characters kited. Two of the three ranged classes had their own brands of Golem, and Paladins had Conversion for temporary meat shields. The other class had Teleport. Then there's the reliance on gear drops, which of course weighed more heavily on anyone attempting melee. Nevermind the constant exposure to hard-hitting attacks, whereas a skilled ranged played could make it through entire areas without losing a single hitpoint. We won't even discuss 'Zons, who had the advantages of both range and benefiting from Leech mods.

And yeah, those of us here are generally above average players, but running melee in D2 is an exercise in pure masochism; there's no benefit to doing it. You can do it for the challenge if you like. Bragging rights, if it please you. But what few extra hp you might get from Vitality doesn't do enough to negate your constant exposure to danger. To say nothing of MSLEBs. Remember when it was INSTANT DEATH to melee them if you were even one pixel out of one of the safe areas from those ludicrous sprays? How FEBs would slaughter you instantly if you didn't block with your shield? D2 was a studying in screwing melee backwards and forwards. About the only substantial benefit was that little gap in Diablo's lightning hose.

Sirian's point is he doesn't want the same to be true in D3 and he fears it is and/or will be. I echo the sentiment because I prefer melee if the option is on par with ranged, because knowing myself for a skilled player, and playing with people who - aside from those I know from here or AB - are less skilled than myself, I like the idea of protecting them. So I'd like to be able to hunker down with a shield and let my buddies do their best Van Helsing impressions with dual crossbows or fling about a few sprays of magic if such is their wont. But it's not going to be fun for me if I'm going to have to spend as much time kiting as they do. Then I'm not doing my job, and I'm not having fun.

Alright then. What is your definition of viable?

For me - viable means that you can beat the game with the skillset your character can bring to the table. Making full use of strategy and player skill to make it happen. Your posts make it seem like melee can't do this.

I'm saying they could then and they can now. I will grant you that in Diablo 3 it's harder than I thought it would be...until I started looking for upgrades for my barbarians gear. I got some key upgrades (my rings, neck and sword were horrid) and I'm rocking my way forward again. We'll see what Inferno brings.

[ViralSpiral]

Well to me it isn't just beating, it also shouldn't be tedious. Ranged characters didn't have tedium for me in D2, and with the exception of some Paladin builds (including, yes, POST-LoD Zealots of several kinds), melee always did. Mind you I never played a Pikebarb when they were the done thing. I've tried every kind of mastery, dual wielding, two handing, sword-and-board, and I've had every skill except Increased Stamina, Natural Resistance, Leap and Bash at 20 at some point. And every time I ended up with a tedious build. Paladins at least had their utility belt of auras for fixing a lot of dismal situations. I even enjoy Weredruids (of either kind) to a point. But melee 'Sins and Barbs are just plain tedious, and that shouldn't be. The Warrior was never tedious. Might be your experiences were different, though. Games should be fun.

[Archon_Wing]

Using only vanilla Diablo 2 is an extremely unfair comparison, considering that many of the crippling things towards melee were bugs like (MSLEB and the tons of jab/zeal bugs) and not part of the designs. The solution there was simply fix it! ( And it was done in the later patches/expansions).

On the other hand, stuff like iron madien in the CS was indeed trash design.

Yes, it should have been done right the first time around. But Blizzard as we all know is about small steps and subtle changes in patches. The best example is Starcraft, which was unplayable competitively, but everyone praises it for the Brood War expansion. And yes, Diablo 2 before the expansion had its terrible issues, but I always judge a product by the effectively final version (in terms of balance)

As for D3, potions need to suck less. Maybe people would funnel some gold towards them, and give them something to use their gold for besides gambling at the craftsman and auctioning.

[kandrathe]

As for D3, potions need to suck less.

I'd like to reduce the cool down just a tad (10 seconds would probably do it). So far, the biggest battle I've relied on them was Diablo phase II (after returning from terror). It was hard to stay close enough to something to recover life, and not enough health orbs. I ended up relying on leaping for the health wells when I could, and waiting (praying) I would survive until I could suck down another potion.

[Mavfin]

As for D3, potions need to suck less.

I'd like to reduce the cool down just a tad (10 seconds would probably do it). So far, the biggest battle I've relied on them was Diablo phase II (after returning from terror). It was hard to stay close enough to something to recover life, and not enough health orbs. I ended up relying on leaping for the health wells when I could, and waiting (praying) I would survive until I could suck down another potion.

Actually, between potions and the replenishing health wells, I had enough for that fight. Of course, once you're back from shadow, he drops globes.

[Chesspiece_face]

As for D3, potions need to suck less.

I'd like to reduce the cool down just a tad (10 seconds would probably do it). So far, the biggest battle I've relied on them was Diablo phase II (after returning from terror). It was hard to stay close enough to something to recover life, and not enough health orbs. I ended up relying on leaping for the health wells when I could, and waiting (praying) I would survive until I could suck down another potion.

If potions were to change I would prefer they do it with an addition ala the Blacksmith. Alchemist? You could advance this crafter to open up passive attributes your potions would inherantly get. This could be something as simple as lowering the cooldown of them by a few seconds or it could be something similar to Path of Exile where for a short time after you use a potion you get bonuses to damage, armor, or resistances.

This gives players another option of how they want to spec their character. You want to go straight up melee tank? Ok, what potion passive do you take? Straight up CD reduction? How about +Armor for 10 seconds after use? What if there is a passive that changes your potions so that it's not a direct heal but a HoT over 10 seconds and during that 10 seconds you gain something like 10% max health (which would make you want to actually use the potion before a battle instead of reactively.)

[DeeBye]

As for D3, potions need to suck less.

They really need to do something about potions. Waiting 30 seconds to click one button for partial healing doesn't at all mesh with the Diablo-style gameplay. It's like they took the worst part of healing potions from the other Diablo games and somehow made it less fun. I really don't like having to baby-sit a 30s cooldown when I am mashing other buttons and moving like a madman in an attempt to not get killed.

I have 6 skill slots which are a lot of fun to customise and use, but the potion slot sits there like that kid with snot balls in his nose from elementary school with the cool toys but he only allows you to play with them if you suck up to him but HE GETS TO PLAY FIRST SO YOU MUST WAIT, and you can only play with them for a few seconds before he snatches them back. Everyone hated that kid in school.

[Athenau]

I think potion cooldowns are a good idea in general, but D3's are too high. In D2 the problem with potions is that you had instant heals (rejuves) combined with no cooldowns. I'd prefer it if in D3 you had a choice between heal over time potions with no cooldown and instant heals with a moderate cooldown (15s).

[Archon_Wing]

It's not just the cooldown though. Recovering 6-9k health does... what?

[Elric of Grans]

When did the Lounge become only about what was possible and good? I thought this was the place where the Varient Scum™ hung out in the D2 days?

Lies. There are no variant scum here!

For what it is worth, while I predominantly played a Bowazon pre-LoD, most of the people I regularly played with were running melee Paladins. This was long before the Hammerdin build was popularised. Since bows were heavily bugged back then (read: utter trash), they were far more effective than I was. In fact, I clearly remember they relied more on me post-LoD, to deal with things like Frost-Aura/Lightning Enchanted/Physical Immune type Elites, which made mince meat out of melee characters.

[Sirian]

And yet I defeated Hell Diablo...on Hardcore with a sword and board zealot. Tell me again how it was crap and unplayable?

Yes, yes. I did my share of extreme challenges, too. Entirely beside the point. (What's the ratio of players who did anything comparable to that with melee, compared to the total number of Diablo 2 players? ... Same question for ranged builds. ... Case closed.)


You keep asking what "viable" means to me. Is it really that obscure? I thought I was pretty clear in the first post, even if I gave a lot of detail for context.

Trash should not be killing me in six blows. I SHOULD be able to go toe to toe with two or three of them for several seconds, but I cannot. If I melee even one of them with Bash, and there's no CC from my teammates, it will hit me a couple of times and my health is down near half already.

That is not viable. Doable, yes. Viable, no. ... Fun? Definitely not.

Spending the vast majority of my time babysitting an unbalanced damage to recovery ratio is not viable. Spending far more time on the run than I can spend engaged, that's not viable. If I want kiting to be the main activity, I'll choose a ranged class and/or skill set.

I am not stumbling through all manner of stupidities (like charging blindly in to darkness pulling two to five times the number of mobs it was safe to pull in D1, or anything along those lines), and when I am making rather effective use of my skill set, I do not welcome the idea of spending a moment engaged in the fun part followed by tons of time kiting. Nor do I consider the idea that an entire class is unplayable past a certain point unless a specific skill is used to be viable.


There are so many garbage stats on the items. I prioritized Vitality and Strength on my gear as I progressed through Nightmare, in a fashion aimed at balancing my DPS/Armor with my health pool. One can have an ideal about which five stats to prioritize, but getting all five of them on the same item just from drops or crafting is like winning the Lotto: it ain't gonna happen. Resists come only in single types and fairly small numbers, at that gear level. I had some, but getting more with what I had available in terms of drops, crafting or merchants would have required a major loss in DPS or health. That seemed unwise. And since then, checking the AH, I don't see perfect gear there, either. If you can get three stats on a rare that you are happy with, you are doing pretty well and should buy the item if it's fairly priced.

I didn't start Ember until many months after D2's release. Until you learn the game, you don't know enough to craft a well-designed variant, unless you stumble in to it by dumb luck. Relying on knowledge from the previous game is a ticket to failure. Each game has its own balance, its own set and setting. Each game has its own flavors of fun, and finding those then building variants around them is a better formula than shooting in the dark, in my experience.

Variants aren't JUST about making do with what the game offers. Some mechanics are poorly designed and/or implemented, are not fun no matter how much lipstick is applied to the pig. These are not worthy of devotion.

Just because Blizzard puts it on the menu doesn't mean I'm going to eat it and smile, even if it tastes like dishwater. There's a lot of goodness in D3, but the core mechanics of melee at the upper levels is not among them -- and to me that's the canary in the coal mine.


- Sirian

[Elric of Grans]

*groans* I just had my first game where I have had to cut my losses and quit. Freezer/Waller/Molten Unburried right on the stairs were already nearly enough to make me cry, but Jailer/Mortar/something Summoners right behind them when I tried to make space while waiting for the potion cooldown... no, that is so far beyond fun it is not even worth contemplating. I think I may give up on this game at higher difficulties until Blizzard fixes this kind of stupidity. My Demon Hunter has gone so defensive as a result of these kinds of situations that she can stand toe-to-toe and tank regular mobs, and even most Elites, yet something like that is still a one-second death that I have no options against. I seriously doubt any testing was done past Normal difficulty, as there is no way they could have failed to miss this kind of insane spikiness.

[ViralSpiral]

Or they just think one-shotting people counts as difficult. See: Baal http://web.archive.org/web/2001062900131.../baal.html
Or MSLEBs until 1.10.
Or Nihlathak.
Or Extra Strong Fanaticism Enchanted (another real treat for melee.)
Or LEB Conviction Enchanted.
Or exploding midgets.
Or FEB pre-1.10.
Or Gloams. (Not one shot, but less than a second of 5-6 bolts at the same time. Although they were pretty good at one-shotting too in 1.10.)

It's sad, really. In D1 you'd have to pretty much try to get one-shotted unless you simply never put anything in Vitality. D2 came to rely upon this for challenge, apparently forgetting some people actually enjoy Hardcore. One shots belong in Contra and Final Fantasy games. Elsewhere they're pretty cheap - and lazy.