PvP Tournament...

[RoYaL]

I don´t know if this is worth the trouble, but if you want to make sure no one cheats you can have people download the software emelaldo used to tape his duels and in case of disagreement they would have to show their version of the duel. That way no one could inventory drink, use player friendly mode etc... In addition, it would be instructive to be able to view both sides of a duel. Just a thought.

in my opinion a good idea. that would make sure nobody can cheat like drinking from inv or something like that. and we had a nice collection of duel videos:)i really would like to see all of the duels:)and it would be funny to see the duels from both sides.
but i dont know if ever participant would agree with that.

[Hariel]

Two things:

1.) It's good to see that there is a pvp tournament taking place, it would increase the activity in D1. Here I like to point out the creators Shade (good job on the applications site), Emelaldo (good idea to post some vids) and FIT, whom I rarely agree with but seems to have made some constructive comments and helps spread the tournament to attract more people, hence again increasing the activity.

2.) About the increasing activity, it seems to have come so far that the communities from various countries start clashing (if I can put it that way as it is now). True, the polish community has once been one of the biggest. Now, once players from all four gateways start coming together, before you start throwing stones at each other, remember that we are some of the few people left playing this game. Without competition in the levels it would only be half as interesting to me, but with competition outside of it it might just get frustrating for everyone. So think about that.

8 vs 0 pots:
Now the thing about using 8 pots was not really about the "drinking extra pots" or whatever you call this kind of cheating. When you play 0 pots the problem still exists.
In Poland we used to play 8 pots till 2000-2001 then it was 4 pots, then 2 pots in 2002 and later on we switched to 0 pots although warrior vs sorc was 2-4 pots for a bit longer due to the sorc>warrior imbalance. The main reason was the length of the duel - after discovering the phasing+fb bug (not sure if it really is a bug maybe that was blizzards intention) back in ~1999 (we call them "homing fb's") and revealing it to the masses later on game style changed to more defensive due to being more efficient and (mana) cost-effective - phasing costs 4 mana instead of 15 (teleport) and it doesn't require you to target it while you still can target your homing fb which makes it easier to dodge fb's. The duels became waaaaay too long and thats why we decided to play 0 pots finally - a Best Of 5, 0 pots duel beetween 2 high (skill) level sorcerors = ~15-20 minutes anyway.
The homing fb works with other spells as well because its actually homing a spell with another one - a targeting bug. It works with arrows as well - thats why rogue involving duels reduced the pots to 0 as well.
And the homing fb was just the beginning of a revolution in dueling, a begining of a new chapter in which a lot of other bugs/tricks/tactics were discovered.
Warriors had the vertical line bug anyways so they also agreed to 0 pots. And the sorcerors with over a 1000 mana with 1/3 dmg reduction (MS) benefited more with every extra pot. Oh, and warriors also changed their configs from dragons/zodiac to dragonsons and ruby whale which gave them a bit of an edge.
The last thing is warrior vs warrior - the style changed to pure steel due to being more skillfull (not really my opinion - i think playing with elemental dmg requires different type of skill and just is a bit more luck based). WvW became a bit like chess - a 0 pot BO5 could even last more than an hour - trying to keep them longer was absurd.

Poland which was and probably still is the biggest diablo 1 community in the world - we never really tried to cooperate with other communities - there wwere more than enough of us ;p. And whenever we tried dueling foreigners even on their rules we just raped them. Im not trying to offend you or anyone else - its just the thing that the more people there are (and our scene was strictly about dueling, tournaments and clan war) the more solutions/tactics you can find and the more expirience you can get.
Too bad POL-1 accepted duped items (the "lets bring it down to pure skill" way of thinking) - whenever we tried to explain something about dueling, foreign communities just replied "stfu u dupe omg!!!1!1!!11".

I havent read the whole thread but a few thing hit me:

Warrior isnt the strongest dueling class, in fact it is the weakest one, especially with your rules - allowing fast block, hit recovery, high ac in any match-up makes sorc even more imbalanced than he is without them.
WvW WvR duels with using spells is just f***ng dumb. If i had the oportunity i wouldnt use them anyway - its too easy to get stunned (or however you call that) while casting and even easier to escape from the spell due to the horizontal line bug.
Not allowing item changes is even more stupid especially if you allow elemental dmg in WvW. Playing with elemental dmg - basically 3 equipment configs - spark, schaefers and lsoh works like paper rock scissors - one config beats the other one. So it will come down to disscussing/switching equipment for an hour before the game and then eventually when both players will most likely agree to use the same one it will come down to pure luck - the one whose spark/schaef/lsoh will be more lucky to deal higher total damage from the 1-10 or whatever elemental hits will win. "Skilless" and stupid.
I could show you a lot more but its pointless.
Im not going to convince you to change the rules, but I hopefully a few Polish people participating in the tournament will make you think about that.

Oh, one last thing:

" didnt even touch on same class duels, but eh, these arent nearly as exciting as interclass pvp anyway."

You couldnt be more wrong. Same class duels are the most exciting ones. Try one day - thats a "must-do" ;]

Sorry for any mistakes - my english isnt perfect ;p

kempes, interesting story about the pvp developments in your country. I would just like to say two things:

- Generally about pvp - Poland and the outside: Never forget that you're mostly playing within your own community. Also, never forget what that means for lag (location). And above all, before you enable your "let's bring it down to pure skill" idea, remember that your community is not anymore the largest. Also remember, that skill and respect go hand in hand for you to be recognized outside of your community.

Now I see you write about many years ago, how it was, and how it should've been and all that, but let me say that back then there were other players around, whom you might not even know about. The lack of mutual trust just hasn't allowed you to come in contact with them. So don't think that he who was or he who is "the best" dueler is really polish. Might be, might be not. That's the facts.

The way of pvp has changed so much and there have been many reasons for it - one is lag, other is perhaps the new vision of pvp that some players brought to everyones' attention - for example Antihero in 2000-2001 revolutionized the melee rogue into a rogue shooting arrows(bow rogue back in 2000 = huhh??). Lag has changed. Players have left. Think about these things guys, I know a few players from pol-1, I think I've played with model a couple of times too, I have nothing against your community personally, you have many skilled players and good sense of humour:). But you can't always stick within your community and play with the same rules, same items.

The way I see it now, a polish player will enter this tourney with the same items as the other polish players in the same tourney. Please don't do that. I am not participating myself in the tourney, but I can say that it would just ruin the whole thing. So, think about that, come to an agreement and make it all objective. Dueling was like that years ago. You use the items you found. Back then we took item saving seriously, most of us still do today. You use the items you found, no trades, no free items, you found them, equip them and you put your skill under test vs the other player. For old times' sake, don't use the same items on different players, just because they come from one community.

- About 0,2,4 or 8 pots in pvp:

I myself haven't dueled that long, I started in late 2003, inspired by the great german players Antihero and Shade. Quickly, I became to realize that the number of pots used in duel had to do with lag situations. In Deu-1 we always duelled with 8 pots, but duelling with 0 pots has also occured. It wasn't popular, but it also wasn't a problem, so to speak.

When german activity decreased in 2006, I checked the east gateway, in search of duke and astra-lynn, they would supposedly be the best ones there. Then I entered the channel Diablo LE and I remember there were quite some players there. My first duels in east were very interesting, I had never seen lag like that before, it was new to me. 8 pots was a must for the players there. And me, connecting from a different continent made 0 pots more or less nonsense. I tried with 4 pots, the duels didn't last very long. Lag spikes convinced one other player he could take a shot. After two seconds, the same thing happens with the other player, the game becomes agressive and duels didn't last long. Duels with lag of those proportions are usually fast and agressive (even with 8 pots).

So, before insisting that true skill is 0 pots (which I agree with in a virtual hamachi situation or "same-country" connections), think about the difference in locations that nowadays most people have because of the decreased activity.

That's all, I wish good luck to all players in the tournament, american, canadian, argentinian, japanese, german or polish. Nationality doesn't matter, creativity does. (sorry if I missed a nationality)

Hariel

[kempes.KGB.]

- Generally about pvp - Poland and the outside: Never forget that you're mostly playing within your own community. Also, never forget what that means for lag (location). And above all, before you enable your "let's bring it down to pure skill" idea, remember that your community is not anymore the largest. Also remember, that skill and respect go hand in hand for you to be recognized outside of your community.

Thats why im not trying to make you change the rules to pure steel WvW, Im just saying duel would be a lot more interesting if you allowed gear switching during the fight especially if you play 8pots (=longer duel). When doing an international tournament you might want to consider different rules and find a compromise. Thats what we did when organizing one in 2002 i belive. It was a bit easier becouse it was a Europan one as far as i remember.

Lag in diablo is horribly #$%&ty no matter if you play your neighbour or a japanese guy.

Oh, and I think we still might be the biggest community despite the fact that we are dead. But not sure, havent seen POL-1 for a few months ;p

Now I see you write about many years ago, how it was, and how it should've been and all that, but let me say that back then there were other players around, whom you might not even know about. The lack of mutual trust just hasn't allowed you to come in contact with them. So don't think that he who was or he who is "the best" dueler is really polish. Might be, might be not. That's the facts.

Of course. But the tournament i mentioned was cancelled after group stage because no foreigner left the group ;p. Hopfully there will be some good, creative players in this tournament, too bad no one signed me in despite sending the form ;p. Might gonna have to visit Diablo LE some day ;]

for example Antihero in 2000-2001 revolutionized the melee rogue into a rogue shooting arrows(bow rogue back in 2000 = huhh??).

LOL melee rogue? For the sake of our discussion Im not gonna comment on this one;)

The way I see it now, a polish player will enter this tourney with the same items as the other polish players in the same tourney. Please don't do that.

Dont worry most polish people kept their own items despite playing duels in duplicated ones. Im quite sure they will dig them up.

When german activity decreased in 2006,

Activity? The last time i saw more than 5-7 people in DEU-1 was 2004, most of them were d2x players.

I checked the east gateway, in search of duke and astra-lynn, they would supposedly be the best ones there. Then I entered the channel Diablo LE and I remember there were quite some players there. My first duels in east were very interesting, I had never seen lag like that before, it was new to me. 8 pots was a must for the players there. And me, connecting from a different continent made 0 pots more or less nonsense. I tried with 4 pots, the duels didn't last very long. Lag spikes convinced one other player he could take a shot. After two seconds, the same thing happens with the other player, the game becomes agressive and duels didn't last long. Duels with lag of those proportions are usually fast and agressive (even with 8 pots).

Once again the distance doesnt make such big of a difference. Its more about the buggy game mechanics affected by gaming style (spamming spells like phasing, someone mentioned the shadow something, it occurs when spamming spells as well, making a lot of turns while walking).

[quote]So, before insisting that true skill is 0 pots (which I agree with in a virtual hamachi situation or "same-country" connections), think about the difference in locations that nowadays most people have because of the decreased activity.[/qoute]

8 pots can be even more skillfull than 0, if you are ok with the fact that you might be playing a duel for 1,5 h ;p

[Hariel]

"Oh, and I think we still might be the biggest community despite the fact that we are dead. But not sure, havent seen POL-1 for a few months ;p"

yeah, it might be you say, ..well it's not:)go check how many are still left there..the diablo LE channel is more or less one community with many nationalities and is now surely bigger than the polish one


"QUOTE
Now I see you write about many years ago, how it was, and how it should've been and all that, but let me say that back then there were other players around, whom you might not even know about. The lack of mutual trust just hasn't allowed you to come in contact with them. So don't think that he who was or he who is "the best" dueler is really polish. Might be, might be not. That's the facts.


Of course. But the tournament i mentioned was cancelled after group stage because no foreigner left the group ;p. Hopfully there will be some good, creative players in this tournament, too bad no one signed me in despite sending the form ;p. Might gonna have to visit Diablo LE some day ;]"

Yep, will meet you there.



"QUOTE
for example Antihero in 2000-2001 revolutionized the melee rogue into a rogue shooting arrows(bow rogue back in 2000 = huhh??).


LOL melee rogue? For the sake of our discussion Im not gonna comment on this one"

Discuss all you want, my ears are open. If you tell me that there were good bow rogues in pol-1 before 2000 it will be big new to me ; -) and I probably won't beleive it^^


"QUOTE
The way I see it now, a polish player will enter this tourney with the same items as the other polish players in the same tourney. Please don't do that.


Dont worry most polish people kept their own items despite playing duels in duplicated ones. Im quite sure they will dig them up."

That's good news, I'm sure logs will be made of all players by some kind of judge.


"QUOTE
When german activity decreased in 2006,


Activity? The last time i saw more than 5-7 people in DEU-1 was 2004, most of them were d2x players."

2005-2006 there were times when the channel was full, true half were d2x, the other half were also split. Well what can I say, there were at least 6 good duelers active during that period, late 2006 not anymore.


"QUOTE
I checked the east gateway, in search of duke and astra-lynn, they would supposedly be the best ones there. Then I entered the channel Diablo LE and I remember there were quite some players there. My first duels in east were very interesting, I had never seen lag like that before, it was new to me. 8 pots was a must for the players there. And me, connecting from a different continent made 0 pots more or less nonsense. I tried with 4 pots, the duels didn't last very long. Lag spikes convinced one other player he could take a shot. After two seconds, the same thing happens with the other player, the game becomes agressive and duels didn't last long. Duels with lag of those proportions are usually fast and agressive (even with 8 pots).


Once again the distance doesnt make such big of a difference. Its more about the buggy game mechanics affected by gaming style (spamming spells like phasing, someone mentioned the shadow something, it occurs when spamming spells as well, making a lot of turns while walking)."

hehe, distance does make a difference, I've seen it. If you haven't, then maybe 1.) you have a godlike connection lo, or 2.) you just haven't duelled enough outside of europe

"[quote]So, before insisting that true skill is 0 pots (which I agree with in a virtual hamachi situation or "same-country" connections), think about the difference in locations that nowadays most people have because of the decreased activity.[/qoute]

8 pots can be even more skillfull than 0, if you are ok with the fact that you might be playing a duel for 1,5 h ;p"

I'm ok if the other guy is ok with it.

Thanks for the response, don't take my criticism too seriously, like I don't take yours too seriously.
It's mostly opinions here, but facts are also facts.

Best regards, Hariel

[Model]

Distance doesn't affect anything. You'll got lag even on LAN network (checked on "diablo party" 3comps on LAN). I dueled with bra-1 (east), some usa(west) and Europe (Ger,Hun,Ita) and it DOESN"T MATTER.

rest is to long to comment and i got 4am:)

cya somewhere on D1

[FireIceTalon]

Groups are now up! GL to all.

[Screw]

Sorry man, Emelaldo's pvp style is ridiculous.

No matter on what rules played, he blows, casting fireballs in warrior vs rogue equipped with items to battle warrior, just mother#$%&ing ridiculous, either you play sword vs sword, or you're a crap loser who saves himself from being beaten by shooting fireballs being away.

No one would ever think of that in Poland, it doesnt matter we use duplicated items, skill is the thing we care about, items can be found, skill not.

As one of the best rogues in Polish community i must say, this guy sucks, and if you're playing like him, you suck also.

[weakwarrior]

Groups are now up! GL to all.

Great. I'm paired with someone (FireIceTalon) who I have never even come close to beating (if you don't count one duel where I won due to MAJOR lag). I guess I'm due a win.

[FireIceTalon]

Sorry man, Emelaldo's pvp style is ridiculous.

No matter on what rules played, he blows, casting fireballs in warrior vs rogue equipped with items to battle warrior, just mother#$%&ing ridiculous, either you play sword vs sword, or you're a crap loser who saves himself from being beaten by shooting fireballs being away.

No one would ever think of that in Poland, it doesnt matter we use duplicated items, skill is the thing we care about, items can be found, skill not.

As one of the best rogues in Polish community i must say, this guy sucks, and if you're playing like him, you suck also.

No, your post (along with everything you said in the LE channel) is ridiculous. You are living in a fantasy world or something? Earlier in the LE channel you stated you were drunk (used as an excuse to avoid dueling me), seems this post was typed during the resulting hangover.

Its very easy to say just watching the duels that someone is no good. Actually dueling them, is an ENTIRELY different thing then watching them, believe me.

As one of the best PvP rogues in the ENTIRE legit community (America or otherwise), and someone who has actually dueled Emelaldo MANY times (not just watched a few duels on youtube), I would place my bet on him, if u two were to duel and you use a warrior. Hell even with a bow rogue (which has a tremendous advantage over a sword rogue), you would not find him an easy opponent, not by any means. Id place my bet on him there as well in fact :)

Try dueling his melee rogue with a warrior and see what happens. You greatly overestimate your abilities, or underestimate his, or both. If you dont like the fact he uses offensive spells in duels, then don't duel him!! Simple as that. But dont sit here and criticize his skill just because he doesn't use the same rules that YOU do. You are utterly absurd. Hell, I dont like the Polish rules of dueling at all, but if you guys wish to duel each other that way, no one is stopping you. But when it comes to you guys vs the rest of the world, you are clearly in the minority. No pots, no offensive spells (except with Mage) is absurd to me (and most everyone who isnt Polish), cause it takes this beautiful game and basically strips it down to nothing. Ridiculous if you ask me, but if you like boring duels where both sides swing a sword or whatever and do little else, then I guess your rules are fine. But dont ever in your life expect me or any other non-Polish dueler to play by them. If you wish to duel that way, perhaps staying in Pol-1 is your best option.

You polish players think you are the worlds only good duelers, but believe me, you are FAR from it. You criticizing anyone elses skill is a complete joke. And if u dont like this post, I dont care. You know where to find me anytime u want a piece of me. You pick what class I use (Sorc is my weakest dueling class). Just know if we do duel, we will be using the NON Polish rules. Well, you can use 0 pots if you wish and no spells....I however will be using 8 pots for sure and POSSIBLY offensive spells depending on what classes are involved :) Id hope you would be smart and do the same, unless of course you think you are that good that you could beat me using 0 pots with me using 8, lol. Then again, you thinking you are even worthy of being in the same arena as Emelaldo or myself is quite humorous at best, a bad joke at worst. Your rogue vs my sorc, perhaps you have a chance....rogue has natural advantage over sorc anyway, and sorc is my least favorite class. Your rogue vs MY rogue?? Dont make me laugh. Vs my warrior?? Few bow rogues (even the best ones) give my warr many problems, I see no reason to believe why you'd be an exception.

Surely, you cant be that great of a dueler if you limit yourself as much as you seem to, and you probably only duel other players in Pol-1. Ive had great experience with all kinds of opponents: my fellow Amercians, Canadian, German, Australian, Japanese, Hungarian, Polish, Korean, Brazilian, Argentinian, etc etc....all kinds of opponents with various styles and moves/tactics. Emelaldo has as well, and for this reason alone, its probably more then likely we are superior and more versatile duelers to the likes of you. I personally think you are one of these kids who talks big and bad, but when it comes time to perform, his bark is worse then his bite. Care to prove me wrong? You know what to do.:)

[FireIceTalon]

Great. I'm paired with someone (FireIceTalon) who I have never even come close to beating (if you don't count one duel where I won due to MAJOR lag). I guess I'm due a win.

Anything can happen in a tournament.

I know im a great dueler, but underestiimating any of my opponents would really be a mistake. Because thinking like that makes you slack and it becomes very easy to make errors. I am confident that I will do well. But I am taking nothing for granted.

In any case, should be fun for all. See ya at the battlefield, and may the best Rogue win B)

[weakwarrior]

Anything can happen in a tournament.

I know im a great dueler, but underestiimating any of my opponents would really be a mistake. Because thinking like that makes you slack and it becomes very easy to make errors. I am confident that I will do well. But I am taking nothing for granted.

In any case, should be fun for all. See ya at the battlefield, and may the best Rogue win B)

I don't doubt it will be fun. Just kidding around. Good luck against everyone but me.:)

[weakwarrior]

You polish players think ...

Not appropriate.

[Screw]

And again i bursted off with laugh, so did poles who read it, as they let me know about your reply here.

Stripping the game down to nothing? Maybe, but it has its effects in most efficient and reliable duel ways, either you're good at it or u suck, and i if you plan to use offensive spells at rogue like fireball...either you're a moron, or you count on a great luck. And luck =/= skill.

I c your ego is huge, according to it you probably placed yourself in finals already, didnt u.

[Tal]

And again i bursted off with laugh, so did poles who read it, as they let me know about your reply here.

Stripping the game down to nothing? Maybe, but it has its effects in most efficient and reliable duel ways, either you're good at it or u suck, and i if you plan to use offensive spells at rogue like fireball...either you're a moron, or you count on a great luck. And luck =/= skill.

I c your ego is huge, according to it you probably placed yourself in finals already, didnt u.

The Battle.net forums are that way ->

I would advise against posting as you would on those forums or your stay here will be very short indeed. While I have your attention might I direct you to our forum rules?

A word of warning to all. Keep it civil or face a time-out.

[FireIceTalon]

Not appropriate.

Perhaps so, but it was very late last when I typed that post and him and his buddies had came in LE last night flapping their gums and spamming the channel, and when I saw his post insulting Eme (who is a friend of mine), I was a bit heated by that point. :angry:Apologies if anyone thought this was a racist comment, that was not my intent.

Anyway Screw, if you are so good as you say, you will stop making lame excuses and duel Eme or myself already. Less talk, more action please. Back up what you say! Think casting FB on a rogue is bad, duel Eme a couple rounds, then come talk to me. And im done with this convo, so dont even bother with a reply.

[Screw]

Do i have to beat that emesomething to play you? he's your slave or something?

[R'lyeh]

Truly, high self-esteem is very important in this hard times.
Is it that hard to duel each other and post the video which could be analysed by whichever community?

[Ashock]

I'm getting bored and annoyed with this thread now. It started out semi-promising. Enough.

[FireIceTalon]

I'm getting bored and annoyed with this thread now. It started out semi-promising. Enough.

Then dont read/post in it ? :rolleyes: *shrugs*

Anyway people, the tournament is well under way now and current results can be seen in the "schedule details" section on Shade's site (see link in my original post). It was off to a slow start, but seems to be picking up some.

[LennyLen]

Then dont read/post in it ? :rolleyes: *shrugs*

I think perhaps Ashock's reaction may have been similar to mine: "Hmmmm, a PvP competition. This could be fun. I'll check it out and see if any of my old DSF buddies are interested." Some reading ensues, then some more reading, and then we get to the trash talking... "Rats, it just looks like it's only some 10 yr olds entering! My ancient reflexes wouldn't stand a chance. Oh well, it could have been fun otherwise."

Seriously though, the reason I, and a few others never really got into PvP was due to the fact that so many duelers manage to do such a great job of making themselves sound like complete jerks. While I'm sure most aren't, those sorts of impressions do last.