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PvP Tournament...
01-23-2009, 06:35 PM
Post: #21
PvP Tournament...
Quote:DIABLO POL-1 (euro)

u want to play this tour on US WEST?

here u got some more duels: http://pl.youtube.com/user/EpicentrumDiablo

- #2: gg, the game is based on lag/desynchr/frame (whatever u call it) and if u put 3 players into the game lag increases
- #3: 0 pots is better way imo
- #4: a bit lame;/, PvP is not only your moving skill but also knowledge what does your opponant CAN have and what does he HAVE now and how to use diffrent cfg to trick your opponent (i'm not saying about hacks). U Can always use diablo saver/guard to check stuff o_O. The game isn't balanced;]
- #5: so how u want to play warr/warr with elemental without changing items?:)

- flash is bugged (it got dead frames when u can't harm the sorc, so it's bad manner to use it in duels)
- warrior >> s/s rouge (with low AC even more)
- switching from bow to s/s takes much time and when warr is near u and starts swinging probably u will die before u will equip shield (maybe on full mana u will make it) but even then he will kill u either with ele or with moving. Unless he's a noob:)
- go to bra-1 (east) or pol-1 (euro) if u want to find good duelers

This tournament will take place wherever server the players want to duel, though most likely they will be done in USA EAST.

there are good duelers internationally, not just in pol-1 and bra-1.....but if any country has the best duelers overall, its probably Japan. They are superb as gamers in general.

8 pots is the international standard, and thats what will be used in this tournament. Everyone in USA, Asia, and pretty much all of Europe uses the 8 pot rule. Only place ive been to that uses 0 pots is pol-1, and bra-1 if using interclass duels. In all my years dueling, ive done duels both ways, and 8 pot duels are clearly the better of the two in my experience. Zero pot duels are good for teaching early awarness but other then that, they are way too short and certainly dont bring out the best of what two players may have to offer.

You may like "tircking" your opponent with setups and changing gear, but us good duelers perfer to outmove our opponenent based on skill only :) Thus, all chance to hit, ac, and resists are disclosed before duels so everything is as fair as possible. Regarding the use of Diablosaver, this is possible, but some versions of this scanner promote exporting, which is absolutly not allowed.

A rogue wont be switching from bow to ss, as I stated before, changing gear during a duel in this tournament is NOT allowed. She could change it for the next duel, but not during the current duel until it is completed.

Flash is controversial, I know this. I dont use it myself, as it doesnt really fit my dueling style, but technically it is legit to use. One thing however that WONT be allowed is shadow casting. This is a true bug and goes against the legit rules of dueling.

We are still unsure if elemental will be allowed in wvw duels, and if it is, it will certainly have to be disclosed before a duel is done. Most likely it will be allowed, since rogues are going to be allowed to use elemental bows if they wish.

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"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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01-23-2009, 07:14 PM
Post: #22
PvP Tournament...
Quote:I agree with you Thenry, PvM and PvP are two totally different things. Just because one lvls a char to 50 doesnt mean they will be good at dueling. I remember back when I had my first lvl 50 char years ago, i thought I was a decent dueler back then, but I look back now and laugh.

Of course playing low ac in hell/hell teaches you good movement and in some ways this can be useful for PvP, but all in all, the only real way to get good at PvP is to actually do it....its like anything else.
I know a number of superb warriors who have never leveled a warrior to 50 just because it involves a ton of drudgery, so leveling a warrior to 50 regardless of setup reveals more of a tolerance for repetitive play than it does skill:) I don't think I could do it with a warrior twice.
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01-24-2009, 01:59 AM
Post: #23
PvP Tournament...
i beg to differ:)

Let's leave the cfg's and changing gear, it's minor thing and i didn't say that i LIKE to "trick":)

But about 8 and 0 pots. Pol-1 dueled on 8 pots but later on ppl decided that 8 pots allows "drinking" for mana shield users (sorc,rog and warrior with ms vs rog/sorc) as the game don't display mana. This is the reason. Of course i can caluculate how many hits the opponent got and how much mana he/she should have, but it is impossible to prove it unless i record the duel+ask a 3rd person to be a judge (clearing/filling inv) and of course the opponent can always say: it was lag, i didn't get any shot.
Next thing is that 0 pots don't leave a place for a mistake, even slightest and requires calculating your mana, hp and every move, when with 8 pots i can cast spells like a mad man.

" Zero pot duels are good for teaching early awarness but other then that, they are way too short and certainly dont bring out the best of what two players may have to offer."

Totaly disagree. First of all duel can last very long, BECAUSE of 0 pots;] so you have to be very carefull and watch your every step, what indicates using 101% of your capabilities:).

But ok, no problem for me to duel on 8, it's even easier.

About offensive spells (i read in some of your's post, don't rember which one). It's ok to use offensive spells, the reason why we don't do it is that it's just useless:) (can show u why, when i find my diablo cd).

Further on, how you want to duel war/war with 8pots and offensive spells (or i misunderstood something?:whistling:) and what you have agains elemental dmg?

As for Japanese pr0gamers, why i haven't seen any esports team with Japanese if they are so good?

starcraft->South Korea
counter strike-> Nor/Pol/Swe/Den/SK
warcraft3->China/SK
c&c3->ger

so if the tournament is free to join, i'll come with some ppl from pol-1. As for warr vs rog i invite you to pol-1:)
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01-26-2009, 03:24 PM
Post: #24
PvP Tournament...
Quote:Flash is controversial, I know this. I dont use it myself, as it doesnt really fit my dueling style, but technically it is legit to use. One thing however that WONT be allowed is shadow casting. This is a true bug and goes against the legit rules of dueling.

What is the bug with flash? What is shadow casting?
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01-26-2009, 04:07 PM
Post: #25
PvP Tournament...
"the Flash effect that deals the damage only checks for 6 positions, and one of those is the caster's location (maybe that's the reason why the caster is made temporary invulnerable)" by Zenda checking the code:). It occurs in the second part of flash animation, which doesn't deal any damage:). The only way is to stand on position on which flash deals about 10% of dmg and try to kill him, befere he kills you:).

I don't know what does he mean by shadow casting;| Maybe i know it but under different name
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01-26-2009, 08:17 PM
Post: #26
PvP Tournament...
Quote:What is shadow casting?

If you attack continuously with your weapon, but throw some right clicks in there, you will just keep attacking without casting a spell. Other players, however, will you see cast the spell. If it's teleport, they will even see your character teleport to a new position for one frame before your client figures out they haven't actually moved. So, while it looks like are casting a spell, they are in fact attacking.

This bug is particularly bad when it comes to firewall. In such a case you will actually create a firewall on your opponent's screen, but not yours. Not only will it damage them, but it will also take up sprites for their spells, so if you lay enough shadow firewalls they will not be able to cast spells even though you are still able to.

--Lang

Diabolic Psyche - the site with Diablo on the Brain!
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01-27-2009, 06:12 PM
Post: #27
PvP Tournament...
Quote:If you attack continuously with your weapon, but throw some right clicks in there, you will just keep attacking without casting a spell. Other players, however, will you see cast the spell. If it's teleport, they will even see your character teleport to a new position for one frame before your client figures out they haven't actually moved. So, while it looks like are casting a spell, they are in fact attacking.

This bug is particularly bad when it comes to firewall. In such a case you will actually create a firewall on your opponent's screen, but not yours. Not only will it damage them, but it will also take up sprites for their spells, so if you lay enough shadow firewalls they will not be able to cast spells even though you are still able to.

Wow! and it actually seems like a bug that could be activated accidentally too. Thanks.
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01-27-2009, 06:14 PM
Post: #28
PvP Tournament...
Quote:"the Flash effect that deals the damage only checks for 6 positions, and one of those is the caster's location (maybe that's the reason why the caster is made temporary invulnerable)" by Zenda checking the code:). It occurs in the second part of flash animation, which doesn't deal any damage:). The only way is to stand on position on which flash deals about 10% of dmg and try to kill him, befere he kills you:).

I don't know what does he mean by shadow casting;| Maybe i know it but under different name

I don´t exactly understand. Is the bug just that some positions are affected less than others? Seems like that would be more of a problem for the caster than the other guy.
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01-27-2009, 06:36 PM
Post: #29
PvP Tournament...
Flash has two bugs: one is that in few positions deals about 10% of the listed dmg and the second one is that during second part of animation mag is indestructable and doesn't get any dmg:)
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01-27-2009, 08:27 PM (This post was last modified: 01-27-2009 08:33 PM by kempes.KGB..)
Post: #30
PvP Tournament...
8 vs 0 pots:
Now the thing about using 8 pots was not really about the "drinking extra pots" or whatever you call this kind of cheating. When you play 0 pots the problem still exists.
In Poland we used to play 8 pots till 2000-2001 then it was 4 pots, then 2 pots in 2002 and later on we switched to 0 pots although warrior vs sorc was 2-4 pots for a bit longer due to the sorc>warrior imbalance. The main reason was the length of the duel - after discovering the phasing+fb bug (not sure if it really is a bug maybe that was blizzards intention) back in ~1999 (we call them "homing fb's") and revealing it to the masses later on game style changed to more defensive due to being more efficient and (mana) cost-effective - phasing costs 4 mana instead of 15 (teleport) and it doesn't require you to target it while you still can target your homing fb which makes it easier to dodge fb's. The duels became waaaaay too long and thats why we decided to play 0 pots finally - a Best Of 5, 0 pots duel beetween 2 high (skill) level sorcerors = ~15-20 minutes anyway.
The homing fb works with other spells as well because its actually homing a spell with another one - a targeting bug. It works with arrows as well - thats why rogue involving duels reduced the pots to 0 as well.
And the homing fb was just the beginning of a revolution in dueling, a begining of a new chapter in which a lot of other bugs/tricks/tactics were discovered.
Warriors had the vertical line bug anyways so they also agreed to 0 pots. And the sorcerors with over a 1000 mana with 1/3 dmg reduction (MS) benefited more with every extra pot. Oh, and warriors also changed their configs from dragons/zodiac to dragonsons and ruby whale which gave them a bit of an edge.
The last thing is warrior vs warrior - the style changed to pure steel due to being more skillfull (not really my opinion - i think playing with elemental dmg requires different type of skill and just is a bit more luck based). WvW became a bit like chess - a 0 pot BO5 could even last more than an hour - trying to keep them longer was absurd.

Poland which was and probably still is the biggest diablo 1 community in the world - we never really tried to cooperate with other communities - there wwere more than enough of us ;p. And whenever we tried dueling foreigners even on their rules we just raped them. Im not trying to offend you or anyone else - its just the thing that the more people there are (and our scene was strictly about dueling, tournaments and clan war) the more solutions/tactics you can find and the more expirience you can get.
Too bad POL-1 accepted duped items (the "lets bring it down to pure skill" way of thinking) - whenever we tried to explain something about dueling, foreign communities just replied "stfu u dupe omg!!!1!1!!11".

I havent read the whole thread but a few thing hit me:

Warrior isnt the strongest dueling class, in fact it is the weakest one, especially with your rules - allowing fast block, hit recovery, high ac in any match-up makes sorc even more imbalanced than he is without them.
WvW WvR duels with using spells is just f***ng dumb. If i had the oportunity i wouldnt use them anyway - its too easy to get stunned (or however you call that) while casting and even easier to escape from the spell due to the horizontal line bug.
Not allowing item changes is even more stupid especially if you allow elemental dmg in WvW. Playing with elemental dmg - basically 3 equipment configs - spark, schaefers and lsoh works like paper rock scissors - one config beats the other one. So it will come down to disscussing/switching equipment for an hour before the game and then eventually when both players will most likely agree to use the same one it will come down to pure luck - the one whose spark/schaef/lsoh will be more lucky to deal higher total damage from the 1-10 or whatever elemental hits will win. "Skilless" and stupid.
I could show you a lot more but its pointless.
Im not going to convince you to change the rules, but I hopefully a few Polish people participating in the tournament will make you think about that.

Oh, one last thing:

" didnt even touch on same class duels, but eh, these arent nearly as exciting as interclass pvp anyway."

You couldnt be more wrong. Same class duels are the most exciting ones. Try one day - thats a "must-do" ;]

Sorry for any mistakes - my english isnt perfect ;p

--

kEMpEs(A)

ex: GbS, SR, KGB, EPI
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01-27-2009, 08:50 PM
Post: #31
PvP Tournament...
Quote:and the second one is that during second part of animation mag is indestructable and doesn't get any dmg:)

Oh. That really is a big bug.
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01-27-2009, 09:03 PM
Post: #32
PvP Tournament...
Quote:after discovering the phasing+fb bug (not sure if it really is a bug maybe that was blizzards intention) back in ~1999 (we call them "homing fb's")...
The homing fb works with other spells as well because its actually homing a spell with another one - a targeting bug. It works with arrows as well - thats why rogue involving duels reduced the pots to 0 as well.

WvW WvR duels with using spells is just f***ng dumb. If i had the oportunity i wouldnt use them anyway - its too easy to get stunned (or however you call that) while casting and even easier to escape from the spell due to the horizontal line bug.

A couple of questions: Can you elaborate a bit more on the homing fbs?
In WvW with no spells, wouldn´t a warrior with a shield of the ages and dex = 100 be able to just block absolutely everything the other warrior throws his way?
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01-27-2009, 09:29 PM
Post: #33
PvP Tournament...
This is why we use lightning in warr vs warr, because in standing postition u can't hit a warrior. He'll block everything. So what's the point to hit for 10minute's in the shield? The solution is elemental dmg. Essential thing is cfg (lsoh,sparking,sheafer's cth/ac and if you have res or not).
Next thing is that u can hit warrior when he's moving. And this is the way to duel warr vs warr. Try to hit him while moving. Then when u come to close combat, you dismiss and hunt each other one more time. This is pure steel and LAG plays significant issue.
Casting spells is pointless due to casting speed and dmg. When you'll try to cast spell, second warrior will kill you.

Homing fb goes straight to the place where the character is, but has lower dmg. There are few variant's of it, i won't write here everything about it because you can write books on this subject:). Essential thing is that u can hit with fb without aiming it at the target
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01-27-2009, 09:38 PM (This post was last modified: 01-27-2009 09:40 PM by kempes.KGB..)
Post: #34
PvP Tournament...
Put your cursor on the player (or monster or whatever), cast phasing, while casting switch to fireball and cast it the exact moment phasing moves you to a different location. Your cursor will be somewhere else and your fireball will be cast to the location you had your cursor on while casting phasing.

In WvW we invented a rule - if you wave your sword backwords so that it cannot hit the opponent it is a sign that he can go away and you both try to hit each other while moving again. Elemental damage is another option of course.

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01-27-2009, 09:51 PM (This post was last modified: 01-27-2009 10:20 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #35
PvP Tournament...
Quote:8 vs 0 pots:
Now the thing about using 8 pots was not really about the "drinking extra pots" or whatever you call this kind of cheating. When you play 0 pots the problem still exists.
In Poland we used to play 8 pots till 2000-2001 then it was 4 pots, then 2 pots in 2002 and later on we switched to 0 pots although warrior vs sorc was 2-4 pots for a bit longer due to the sorc>warrior imbalance. The main reason was the length of the duel - after discovering the phasing+fb bug (not sure if it really is a bug maybe that was blizzards intention) back in ~1999 (we call them "homing fb's") and revealing it to the masses later on game style changed to more defensive due to being more efficient and (mana) cost-effective - phasing costs 4 mana instead of 15 (teleport) and it doesn't require you to target it while you still can target your homing fb which makes it easier to dodge fb's. The duels became waaaaay too long and thats why we decided to play 0 pots finally - a Best Of 5, 0 pots duel beetween 2 high (skill) level sorcerors = ~15-20 minutes anyway.
The homing fb works with other spells as well because its actually homing a spell with another one - a targeting bug. It works with arrows as well - thats why rogue involving duels reduced the pots to 0 as well.
And the homing fb was just the beginning of a revolution in dueling, a begining of a new chapter in which a lot of other bugs/tricks/tactics were discovered.
Warriors had the vertical line bug anyways so they also agreed to 0 pots. And the sorcerors with over a 1000 mana with 1/3 dmg reduction (MS) benefited more with every extra pot. Oh, and warriors also changed their configs from dragons/zodiac to dragonsons and ruby whale which gave them a bit of an edge.
The last thing is warrior vs warrior - the style changed to pure steel due to being more skillfull (not really my opinion - i think playing with elemental dmg requires different type of skill and just is a bit more luck based). WvW became a bit like chess - a 0 pot BO5 could even last more than an hour - trying to keep them longer was absurd.

Poland which was and probably still is the biggest diablo 1 community in the world - we never really tried to cooperate with other communities - there wwere more than enough of us ;p. And whenever we tried dueling foreigners even on their rules we just raped them. Im not trying to offend you or anyone else - its just the thing that the more people there are (and our scene was strictly about dueling, tournaments and clan war) the more solutions/tactics you can find and the more expirience you can get.
Too bad POL-1 accepted duped items (the "lets bring it down to pure skill" way of thinking) - whenever we tried to explain something about dueling, foreign communities just replied "stfu u dupe omg!!!1!1!!11".

I havent read the whole thread but a few thing hit me:

Warrior isnt the strongest dueling class, in fact it is the weakest one, especially with your rules - allowing fast block, hit recovery, high ac in any match-up makes sorc even more imbalanced than he is without them.
WvW WvR duels with using spells is just f***ng dumb. If i had the oportunity i wouldnt use them anyway - its too easy to get stunned (or however you call that) while casting and even easier to escape from the spell due to the horizontal line bug.
Not allowing item changes is even more stupid especially if you allow elemental dmg in WvW. Playing with elemental dmg - basically 3 equipment configs - spark, schaefers and lsoh works like paper rock scissors - one config beats the other one. So it will come down to disscussing/switching equipment for an hour before the game and then eventually when both players will most likely agree to use the same one it will come down to pure luck - the one whose spark/schaef/lsoh will be more lucky to deal higher total damage from the 1-10 or whatever elemental hits will win. "Skilless" and stupid.
I could show you a lot more but its pointless.
Im not going to convince you to change the rules, but I hopefully a few Polish people participating in the tournament will make you think about that.

Oh, one last thing:

" didnt even touch on same class duels, but eh, these arent nearly as exciting as interclass pvp anyway."

You couldnt be more wrong. Same class duels are the most exciting ones. Try one day - thats a "must-do" ;]

Sorry for any mistakes - my english isnt perfect ;p

"We just raped them"

Interesting. Ive dueled a number of polish warriors using FireIce, and ive beatin them on several occasions {using your guy's rules too :P ) Havent dueled too many sorc's from there, but the 1 or 2 i did duel got smashed pretty handily. Then again, Rogue owning Sorc is quite common anyway regardless. Not trying to sound arrogant or anything, but you guys are NOT the only great duelers on the face of this Earth. Not by any means.

As far as elemental damage in WvW and eq changes, this wont be an issue as ive said before, as all duelers most disclose their setup before they even cast a guardian, and both must declare they are ready as well. So in such a situation, elemental damage being used will be known ahead of time. It takes maybe 2 extra mins for a player to disclose everything to one another so the duel is as balanced as possible.

Same class duels can be interesting IF they are done right, but this is rarely the case unfortuantly. I find interclass duels to be much more strategic because the players have different objectives on what they must do. Rogue (bow) vs Warr is by far the most exciting and dynamic duel in D1, in my opinion. In same class duels both players have the same tactics more or less, even if both players move different. But in a interclass duel, the tactic used by each player is very different. To each his own I guess.

As far as the "homing" fireball and arrows you speak of, that is a well known tactic called Auto-Aim. Its much harder to do it with fireball, then with arrows, due to the mages fast cast rate. Its basically the same thing as a warrior's telekill except there is range involved.

Strongest dueling class, its pretty balanced between the three. But ive dueled with all kinds of players over the years with various styles, items and tactics......after wasting more hours dueling on this game then I care to mention, I would say all in all, the warr is the strongest overall dueling class, if by a slight margin. People THINK he is the weakest just cause of his slow cast rate and high dependence of good EQ, but this thought is nonsense. There is no stronger opponent then a careful, calculating and patient warrior. I use all three classes to duel, rogue is my favorite. But warrior overall is strongest dueler (tank mage perhpas has advantage over warrior, but standard mage or rogue?? Hardly). I know warriors who can tear anyone up regardless of class, on any given day. Some of them are participating in this event:)

GL to all participating ^^

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01-27-2009, 09:57 PM (This post was last modified: 01-27-2009 09:59 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #36
PvP Tournament...
Quote:A couple of questions: Can you elaborate a bit more on the homing fbs?
In WvW with no spells, wouldn´t a warrior with a shield of the ages and dex = 100 be able to just block absolutely everything the other warrior throws his way?

Weak, homing fireballs/arrows is a tactic called Auto Aim, which involves teleport/phasing while attacking your opponent. I use it all the time when i duel warriors with FireIce....they way it works is, when you cast the teleport or phase, you click on your opponent during the split second of the casting animation and u will fire an fb/arrow at your opponent automatically (it may or may not connect, but usually does IF the opponent is standing still or trying to cast). With arrows, its especially useful as both a defensive and offesnsive tactic, to attack warriors while they are trying to heal or to keep a warrior off you if u are trying to escape from a telekill (which ironically, is done the same way auto-aim is). Watch my duels on youtube, I use this tactic CONSTANTLY....all great pvp rogues do.

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01-28-2009, 06:25 PM
Post: #37
PvP Tournament...
Quote:Watch my duels on youtube, I use this tactic CONSTANTLY....all great pvp rogues do.

I saw your duels from emelaldo´s side, and was in awe of how quickly you managed to aim. I assumed that you cast a teleport and knew where you would land relative to him and so managed to aim; sort of like telekill, except with telekill it´s obvious that you will land directly under him whereas here you have to figure it out yourself. This seems a bit more manageable. Thanks to everyone who explained this.
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01-28-2009, 10:30 PM
Post: #38
PvP Tournament...
Quote:I saw your duels from emelaldo´s side, and was in awe of how quickly you managed to aim. I assumed that you cast a teleport and knew where you would land relative to him and so managed to aim; sort of like telekill, except with telekill it´s obvious that you will land directly under him whereas here you have to figure it out yourself. This seems a bit more manageable. Thanks to everyone who explained this.

Precisely. Auto-aim is easy to learn, but rather difficult to master cause you kinda have to incorporate it into your style. Even though all great rogue duelers use this tactic, we all move quite different and have our own favorite moves. Emelaldo is very fast on rogue and he is a big fan of phasing for instance. I prefer to use a bit more teleporting for a more direct and aggressive style. Usually if the desync isnt too bad, I can usually predict approximately where my opponent will end up, but auto aim is also used as a defensive tactic to keep warriors from teleporting to me as easy. With really bad lag though, you have to teleport differently otherwise he can appear next to you and get hits in.

Good to see you signed up for the tournament.

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01-28-2009, 11:15 PM
Post: #39
PvP Tournament...
Quote:Good to see you signed up for the tournament.

I thought weaksorcerer was a very cleverly disguised name and no one would figure out that it was me. I´ll have to be more inventive next time.
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01-29-2009, 02:40 PM
Post: #40
PvP Tournament...
Quote:The 3 of us would like to start a PvP tournament of sorts, so we are looking for aspiring duelists if there any left. I know a few people in Diablo LE channel (us east) that are interested. Post here if you are interested or have any suggestions. You dont have to be a great or even average dueler to participate, its for pure fun only....though obviously having a high lvl char with decent items is preferable for both yourself and your opponent.

I don´t know if this is worth the trouble, but if you want to make sure no one cheats you can have people download the software emelaldo used to tape his duels and in case of disagreement they would have to show their version of the duel. That way no one could inventory drink, use player friendly mode etc... In addition, it would be instructive to be able to view both sides of a duel. Just a thought.
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