The First Offensive! It has happened!

[Dani]

How so?  Should the media never cover tragedies and wars, or should all journalists work for free?  They are getting paid to do their job, just like any other day of the week.  If the media weren't covering this, then everyone would be like "Hey didn't we go to war?  Are we still fighting?  Did we win or lose?  Are we all communists yet?"

Personally I think some of the journalists have to be a little bit insane to be covering this conflict from inside enemy territory, but I don't hold it against them.

Getting paid a decent salary for covering world events is ok. Newbroadcasts as mainstream entertainment is not. There used to be a time when news were news, not reality show entertainment. The operational strategy of CNN etc. is what sickens me, not the individual reporters.

So I guess I should readjust my statement. I hope Ted Turner gets hit by a misguided bomb, not the reporters. :P

[--Pete]

Hi,

Newspapers can be made with more pages or less, depending on how much news there is. Broadcast news must fill the time available.

Newspaper reporters can be ugly as sin. Television "news personalities" are picked largely for looks.

Newspapers can be scanned at your leisure. Television news must hold your attention at their set times.

Newspapers reach you through an intellectual process. Television is visceral.

When the first news was broadcast over a radio wave, when the first news was recorded on a newsreel, the end of news as information and the beginning of news as entertainment was decreed. There is no going back. Man's climb from the pit of ignorance was stopped ;)

--Pete

[Dani]

When the first news was broadcast over a radio wave, when the first news was recorded on a newsreel, the end of news as information and the beginning of news as entertainment was decreed.  There is no going back.  Man's climb from the pit of ignorance was stopped ;)

--Pete

You're so right. And it's so sad. :/
It's even worse that I let it bother myself. To try and hope for a turn to the better. Maybe it's dumb and Quixotic.
Life in some isolated cabin is beginning to sound more and more attractive, but then I bet that sooner or later someone in the media would decide that all the people living "away from civilization" are a threat to McSociety ;)

[Rhydderch Hael]

Aye. Now we talk on a common level. I shall bring the mead and a stone by which to sharpen our swords with. Next time I hear the marketing phrase "Shock and Awe", I'm going on a doughnut-slinging rampage! :blink:

[Occhidiangela]

I hope Ted Turner gets hit by a misguided bomb, not the reporters.

May his most recent ex-wife be standing next to him, busting his chops over some past infuriation, right when that most fortuitous bomb hits. :P

[Occhidiangela]

The UN is, militarily, ridiculous, unless certain Big Dogs play. So be it, that is old news.

On your last points, though.

I am sure the primary targets to disable the country will be radar transmitters and power plants.

Yes to the radar transmitters, no to the power plants. Leaving the power plants in place is critical to a successful achievement of the stated political aims: 'liberate Iraq' and help its people to move forward into a post Saddam, and hopefully better, future.

I would even go so far as to say that many radar transmitters that operate at civil air facilities will be left alone, approach control radar at some airports, etc. Weather radar at Baghdad airport hardly need taking out, for example. Radar transmitter bands are easy to determine with modern ESM equipment. That kind of care can be taken, and I suspect it will be taken.

Having to rebuild the entire Iraqi infrastructure is completely at odds with the political aim. This conflict is NOT an instant replay of 1991, it is a different kettle of fish. The long term betterment of the average Iraqi on the street is a stated aim. Now, whether that is achievable at the point of a bayonet is an extremely good question. How Iraqi's will react to their 'liberation' is anyone's guess.

The comparitively blunt intstrumeht approach of 1991 is not suitable to the current political aims, as publicly stated, and would simply add to the cost and trouble of rebuilding Iraq once the shoooting stops, which is also a stated aim. I would expect to see no public utilities, no bridges, not major rail lines, damaged on purpose, and indeed, serous efforts to stem and stop oil refinery and oil field damage, which will be post war Iraq's economic life blood.

In any case, whoever moves on rail and bridge systems is exposed and basically toast. One thing that was well taught in the last edition: If you move, when your foe has air supremacy over the battlefield, you die if he troubles himself to shoot at you.

[TaMeOlta]

Hmmmm ..... do I flip to the War Channel or the Sci Fi Channnel ? Decisions , decisions .... got burnt out on watching the news ( :lol: Rhydds looping void of information :lol: ) so after work I think I'm gonna fire up Diablo and split some heads with my axe ! Where did all this 'inner violence' come from ? I thinking I'm being subliminally controled by the media ........ :blink: ........ :P

[Occhidiangela]

Last night the first shipment of 200,000 metric tons of wheat for Iraq was ordered by the President, with another 400,000 metric tons being identified for follow on shipment. Looks like some farmers need not let their fields go fallow for the next year or so . . . win-win. Get some food to the people who will need it.

And the need appears pressing. A Canadian news show that I watched Wednesday held an observation that some 16,000,000 Iraqi's are on a goverment food ration program, out of a population of around 24 million.

Looks like the oil for food protocol, a workaround aimed at helping the Iraqi people during the long UN embargo as sanctions for non compliance, did not quite get implemented effectively enough. I wonder if some of what motivated President Bush was realizing that the embargo just passed more pain to all Iraqi people, sort of like the embargo vis a vis Haiti did in the early 90's, and getting Saddam (like Cedras) out was the only way to resolve that situation.

I note that Khoffi Anan has asked the Security Council that he be put in charge of the oil for food program in post conflict Iraq. He realizes, I am sure, how tough to implement such a program is, but I sincerely hope that the Security Council will unanimously approve his wish so that the UN can act in one of its many effective capacities. There is enough economic potential in Iraq to avoid the creation of international aid junkies. The sooner that gets underway, the better.

Aw shucks is a bad pun on shucking corn, which grain may not be part of any aid shipment.

In a related note: Those of you who bought pork belly futures, don't look to the international aid efforts in post war Iraq to make your calls come out rosy: it's a pig thing. :o

[kandrathe]

I'm thinking a Banzai type battle chant, Chakanah!!!

Chakanah!!!
Chakanah!!!
Chakanah!!!

[Dani]

And the need appears pressing.  A Canadian news show that I watched Wednesday held an observation that some 16,000,000 Iraqi's are on a goverment food ration program, out of a population of around 24 million. 

Umm, if 16 million out of 24 million are on government food program it seems to me, that the oil for food program did exactly what it was supposed to do, ie. give the government supplies to feed the people. It's not like each private Iraqi would have a bucket of oil each day to go exchange for a sandwhich with a tourist behind the border or something. ;)
No comment on what else that program achieved.
BTW - wasn't it sadly hilarious when Bush referred to Iraqis as educated people. The punchline is, that before Gulf War 91, Iraq had 89% literacy. Last year they had 59% literacy. :/

[Conner Macleod]

Conner, your comments were offensive and inflammatory and don't belong here on the forums.

-Griselda

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

All women 25 and under - this is your daddy's military, service the first serviceman you see. That is all.

First ignorant ideas. Then arrogant assertions. Then plain stupid remarks. Lastly sanctimonious pontifications.

And to top it all off, a chauvinist in every definition as well.

Congratulations on alienating yourself from every thinking man and woman on the face of the Earth.

[Occhidiangela]

But that 'punchline' is a sad reflection on how poorly the current regime serves its people.

Incredibly sad.

Not sure who fed the Pres his numbers either . . . or if they bothered to get any. :o

[Dani]

But that 'punchline' is a sad reflection on how poorly the current regime serves its people.

Incredibly sad. 

Not sure who fed the Pres his numbers either . . . or if they bothered to get any. :o

I saw those numbers in Newsweek or Time couple weeks back. Maybe even both. Frankly since the coverage every week recently seems to be the same it's hard to remember what exactly was in what issue. :/
If the Iraqis get enough Americanized, they might raise a class action suit against the UN for the embargo. ;)

Ah and you might want to consider, that the fallen literacy indeed is the fault of the embargo, not the regime. Hussein, like Soviet leaders of the past, did try to have good education available to his people. One reason perhaps why the country at least used to be quite secular compared to it's neighbours.

[Occhidiangela]

The continuation of the embargo is a direct result of the regime not complying with the UN security council resolutions, both before and after 1991 conflict. I did quite a bit of research on blockades and embargoes, and I found that, by themselves, they do little to any government who does not give a sh** about its people. Haiti was a great example, early 1990's. It took the threat of force, and the 82d airborne division being on the way to a combat drop, as well as some shuttle diplomacy by ex-Pres Carter and then ex-CJCS Powell to convince General Cedras and friends to 'get out of town.' The aim was to put the elected Pres Aristide, a charismatic but somewhat unscrupulous character (he among other things advocated the use of 'necklaces' of burning tires as a method of retribution against political opponents, back into his office. That situation parallel's the condition in Iraq, in a very broad sense, in that Saddam is an unelected dictator whose position is not a reflection of a republican or representative process. Many details are of course very different.

Embargoes/blockades under UN auspices are an attempt to coerce that uses something other than brute force, and are of very limited effectiveness, if any. However, they are one of the few measures that the UN agrees to try since the UN membership, and Security Council to include the US, in general prefers not to embark in armed enforcement where any other means can achieve the ends.

See also the US trade embargo with Cuba. It did not get Fidel out of Cuba, now did it? ;)

[Jester]

"See also the US trade embargo with Cuba. It did not get Fidel out of Cuba, now did it? "

Gibbled their economy mighty good, though. And might well have forced them into the Soviet camp, rather than being a non-aligned nation.

Jester

[Occhidiangela]

He was going there anyway, and as I recall, the embargo was not imposed right after the 1959 revolution. It took a while before that became policy. Trying to claim that Castro 'was forced into the arms of the Russians' is a bit of revisionism that amuses me no end.

[Dani]

Ofcource there are legit reasons to install those embargoes from UN point of view. I'm not about to challenge the UNSC because for better or worse I see them as our only hope.
However and I think many would agree, embargoes simply don't work against pretty much anyone but a democratic state. Embargoes mainly hurt the population, and thus can be effective only against entities, where that population is considered somewhat releveant and has a say in things.
So, I'd say yeah Iraqis can blame Hussein for their miserable circumstance, but they could (and do rightly so) as much blame the UNSC and especially the countries that ran the UNSC gauntlet to get those measures implemented.