Gah!

[Brista]

The real solution is to penalise ineffectiveness

If you're in an area where you're useless and can't kill anything or help anyone else kill anything then you should go somewhere where you can

This would probably penalise some completely party-oriented builds based on curses and auras but that might be a reasonable price to pay to return Hell, and particularly Ladder Hell, back into the domain of people who know how to play their characters

[the Langolier]

I never liked that idea.  What level req do you think would be good?  I've had some very low level characters beat baal before.  I would be upset not to be able to get in to NM even though I can kill normal baal.

The earliest I have ever killed Diablo solo is clvl 24. I estimate this is about the lowest level you can get to diablo when doing everthing you need to get there yourself (collecting staff, flail, etc.). Also, act 5 gives enormous amounts of experience. You can easily level up 10 times just getting to baal. Let's say you do kill him before you meet the level requirements to move to nightmare. Why the rush? Again, act 5 gives so much experience, even after killing baal it is a good idea to stay behind and gain 5 more levels.

Perhaps you can kill baal at level 25 or so, and you do so by taking the last waypoint (even if you rushed through each area, it would almost be certain you would gain 5 levels). The point of putting the level requirements in place would be to minimize rushing, which is exactly what that would have been.

I think it would be a great idea. Level 35 would be very reasonable in order to get into nightmare for characters that played the game through act by act.

[Mikedok]

If you say that you think level 25 is the min, then why not make it lvl 25? Usually I play twinked characters, so it is difficult for me to estimate the normal level. But recently I played an un-twinked character who put no points into any stats (needed a challenge). This character, played through each act and beat Baal at level 34. Part of this trip was done in multi-player, so I think that I got more xp then a single player character. Also, I replayed some areas to level up my merc. I think that if I had put points in stats, I may have moved faster as well.

I say again, I don't think someone should get a penalty for killing Baal early, if anything it should be considered an accomplishment and the player should be rewarded. Not that I think players should actual be rewarded, I just think that a reward would make more sense then a penalty.

[ShadowHM]

I say again, I don't think someone should get a penalty for killing Baal early, if anything it should be considered an accomplishment and the player should be rewarded.  Not that I think players should actual be rewarded, I just think that a reward would make more sense then a penalty.

Be reassured. The chances of anything being changed are pretty low.

However, there is absolutely zero accomplishment in being rushed past Baal. A reward for this makes no sense at all. They already get a reward......they can go to Hell games and beg. :P And I can conceive of no way to differentiate between those being rushed and those displaying skill, if not patience.

And a small nit on the comment about how much experience there is in Single Player mode. I have recently started playing Realm after spending most of my D2 time in SP or TCP/IP games. My characters have reached Slayer status, indeed Champion and Patriarch status at much younger levels than they ever did in SP. You see, in SP there is this very handy feature called 'Players x', whereby you can simulate any number of players in the game from one to eight.

[Mikedok]

However, there is absolutely zero accomplishment in being rushed past Baal. A reward for this makes no sense at all. They already get a reward......they can go to Hell games and beg.  And I can conceive of no way to differentiate between those being rushed and those displaying skill, if not patience.

I know that there is no accomplishment in rushing. I also am aware that you can't tell if a character was rushed or not. I think that in this case, the skillful player who was able to beat Baal at a lower then standard level should get the benifit of the doubt. I disagree with a penalty that affects good players. In my post I thought I made it clear that I didn't think that a reward was in order either. I just said that I thought a reward would be "better" then a penalty in terms of which made more sense. I actually think that no reward or penalty is the best system.

And a small nit on the comment about how much experience there is in Single Player mode. I have recently started playing Realm after spending most of my D2 time in SP or TCP/IP games. My characters have reached Slayer status, indeed Champion and Patriarch status at much younger levels than they ever did in SP. You see, in SP there is this very handy feature called 'Players x', whereby you can simulate any number of players in the game from one to eight.

I am well aware of 'players x'. What I meant by single player was a realms character that plays by himself. While I am a big fan of grouping with other players, sometimes I find it easier to pass a certain parts of the game if I play solo. The handy 'players x' feature is not available to realms characters.

Besides, there are features to deal with xp leechs and with spammers. The party function deals well with leechs, either don't invite them, or leave a group that does invite them. For spammers just hit squelch. I realize that in perfect world these people wounldn't be there at all. I know that by imposing level req for NM and Hell you want to get closer to that perfect world. I think that imposing the level restrictions takes you farther away from the perfect world because of the effect it has on skillful low level players.

[the Langolier]

If you say that you think level 25 is the min, then why not make it lvl 25? ...This character, played through each act and beat Baal at level 34... I think that if I had put points in stats, I may have moved faster as well.

1) In the case presented, the only way to kill baal at 25 would be to get the last WP in act 5 and go from there. That would classify as rushing - which is what imposing a level requirement would try to avoid.

2) Your character is a perfect example. By clearing all the areas without getting rushed, it made it to lvl 34. By "faster" I think you mean the character could indeed kill faster and thus progress faster with respect to time, but not experience. If you had to clear the same areas with or without stat points, the experience gains would be about equal

[John.Whorfin]

I don't care much for the idea of level restrictions. If a character is strong enough to survive in hell at level 20, I see no reason to prevent them from doing so. In order to allow this possibility, but still make rushing more difficult, I would propose the following:

1) Require a specific quest to be completed before an act boss quest is activated. For instance, you could not get credit for killing Andariel until you kill the Smith; Act 2 could not be completed unless you kill the Summoner; ...

2) In order to get credit for a quest, it must be 'finished' by a character that has not already completed it. For instance, the killing blow on an act boss must be dealt by a character that needs the quest.

[--Pete]

Hi,

1) Require a specific quest to be completed before an act boss quest is activated. For instance, you could not get credit for killing Andariel until you kill the Smith; Act 2 could not be completed unless you kill the Summoner; ...

Yes. Don't know how much difference it would really make, but push this to the limit. The act end boss can't be hit unless everyone in the party has "done" all the act's quests. Like I said, don't know how much good it would do, but maybe some of the ten second attention span people would find it too much and leave.

In order to get credit for a quest, it must be 'finished' by a character that has not already completed it. For instance, the killing blow on an act boss must be dealt by a character that needs the quest.

No. First because it really doesn't accomplish much. The rusher can take the boss down to a couple of hit points, the rushee could then get that last hit in. Might make rushing a bit harder but not enough to compensate the fact that it would make playing a group a real PITA. Can you imagine a regular group that plays together having to do each act end boss up to eight times? Especially given that some of those act end bosses take a bit of getting to even if you have the "last" waypoint.

As for me, I really couldn't care much. When I played (and if 1.10 ever comes out, when I play again), I'll play with people for whom all the cheesy exploits are not even considered. So, if Buzzard wants to make the game harder for the wimps I won't complain unless they mess up my playing experience.

--Pete

[Count Duckula]

There we go. All the waypoints and all the quests. Unless Sirian's been writing an Incredibly Journey about how he beat hell difficulty with a level 8 sorceress with all her points in frost nova and carrying a vanilla halberd.

(The man's got talent.)

Or, someone can write a Loser Filter. Heck, that's a program I'd risk a ban from Battle.net for.

[LemmingofGlory]

There we go. All the waypoints and all the quests.

All waypoints my furry little ass. There's absolutely no reason to get some of them. I regularly skipped particular ones and have no interest in searching for them. Aside from punishing soloists, in multiplayer you'd just need one big char with all WPs to spread 'em around. It'd inconvenience me even more than it would the nitwits!

All quests? Maybe you like doing every single quest with every character, but I often skip them for no other reason than they're out of my way.

Lam Esen's tome: Finding somebody's overdue library book is hardly so urgent I'd put off going to Hell and saving the world to do.

Rescuing Cain: You never leave that gin-soaked fogey swinging in the gibbet? "Heeeelp... *creak creak*" Gee, P, I'd have thought such a big SoS fan would've had at least a *little* evil in them.

Rescue Qual-Khek's Barbarians: My Legionnaire would NEVER help the competition!

The unusual RP value aside, though, why create a global inconvenience to deal with idiots? There will always be idiots, and this is especially true in public games. Expecting to cut down on their population by raising requirments to enter the next difficulty is rather optimistic, I say. I'd rather play *my* way without detours from "nerf the idiot" factors and let the beggars panhandle as they will.

But I suppose my view on this goes back to my philosophy on public games in general: They're only "games" by accident. Expect the undesirible. Expect the annoying. Sharpen your wit and prepare to do battle with the unarmed! CHARGE!!!!

[o: *LEMMING* :o]

[Thecla]

There we go. All the waypoints and all the quests.

Well, this wouldn't solve rushing: it would just make more restrictions for people that do things themselves. But at least the Halls of the Dead would be visited more frequently in nm and hell difficulties than is presently the case (though probably Nihalthak would be killed even less). ;)

I don't like the idea of level restrictions at all myself, especially if they prevent some challenge: they just mean you can't play the game the way you want to. (Dungeon Siege was particularly awful in that respect -- as in many others -- where the multiplayer character level restriction for a given starting town was absurdly high.) There should, however, be a serious reworking of how xp points are shared. If people couldn't rapidly leech their characters to high levels but had to earn those xp points themselves one way or the other, a lot of the incentive for rushing would disappear (a lvl 1 character with all the quests and all the wps in all difficulties would still have to lvl up somewhere). You didn't see people begging to 3-dot their lvl 1 chars in D1, even though it could be done.

[Count Duckula]

All waypoints my furry little ass. There's absolutely no reason to get some of them. I regularly skipped particular ones and have no interest in searching for them.

I thought it was fun hunting for the jungle Kurast ones... :blink:

Lam Esen's tome: Finding somebody's overdue library book is hardly so urgent I'd put off going to Hell and saving the world to do.

If it gives my weak and brittle Necromancer some more HP, I'll return the book.

Rescuing Cain: You never leave that gin-soaked fogey swinging in the gibbet? "Heeeelp... *creak creak*" Gee, P, I'd have thought such a big SoS fan would've had at least a *little* evil in them.

I always rescue Cain! He's done so much for me in the past, and now he IDs for free! Never have to buy another ID scroll again. His gossips are a riot, especially in Harrogath. (Anya's gossip about Larzuk takes the prize, though. Makes me wish there was a "blind date" quest in Act V. Save the world? No, gotta set up the local blacksmith with the wise elder's daughter. I'll supply the perfect diamond if they supply me with another socketing option!) And Cain tags along whether you cut him down or not, so why not cut him down and make him give his services for free? (What Would Six Do? Leave him up there and have him follow you around later like a high-priced prostitute, or save him to be your ID slave?)

The unusual RP value aside, though, why create a global inconvenience to deal with idiots?

Because my name is Nalia de'Arnise. Let's make the world a better place! :unsure:

But I suppose my view on this goes back to my philosophy on public games in general: They're only "games" by accident. Expect the undesirible. Expect the annoying. Sharpen your wit and prepare to do battle with the unarmed! CHARGE!!!!

I should've gone pubby playing before I sent my CDs home. Public games are the biggest reality check around.

There should, however, be a serious reworking of how xp points are shared. If people couldn't rapidly leech their characters to high levels but had to earn those xp points themselves one way or the other, a lot of the incentive for rushing would disappear (a lvl 1 character with all the quests and all the wps in all difficulties would still have to lvl up somewhere).

How is experience shared in parties, exactly? Isn't it based on a percentage by level and weighted to higher clvl characters? Or something?

EDIT: I HATE the quoting feature on this forum!

[LemmingofGlory]

I thought it was fun hunting for the jungle Kurast ones...

Fine and dandy for you. I could care less about the useless-ass Great Marsh. Or the WP in the second Imp area in A5. Or the WP in the Cube tomb. Or A2 Sewers 2 WP. Just to name a few.

If it gives my weak and brittle Necromancer some more HP, I'll return the book.

Exactly. It's something specific characters might want - not everyone.

And Cain tags along whether you cut him down or not, so why not cut him down and make him give his services for free? (What Would Six Do? Leave him up there and have him follow you around later like a high-priced prostitute, or save him to be your ID slave?)

You forget the first tenant of evil! Evil comes in many forms.
Cain IDing your items, whether you see it as gratitude or forced servitude, is more of a "greedy" sort of evil. The cruel, bloodthirsty sort might not give two farts about "free ID" when the tradeoff is letting the old man starve to death. (And, remember, he wouldn't know Cain'll be saved anyway.)

Because my name is Nalia de'Arnise. Let's make the world a better place!

Then call me Tiax! When TIAX rules beggars shall be rolled in manure, tacked to posts, and used to light the roadsides! Two birds, one stone.

Public games are the biggest reality check around.

I don't get the impression that means "They're a great gaming environment." - which is what these needless restrictions seek to create. You can polish a turd all you like, but it's still a turd.

[o: *LEMMING* :o]

[Kevin]

So a barb could get 20 HP from the tome but no one else could. ;)

[Count Duckula]

You can polish a turd all you like, but it's still a turd.

Or you can let it fossilize for a couple million years, polish it up, and call it coprolite. :P

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

I don't get the impression that means "They're a great gaming environment." - which is what these needless restrictions seek to create.

Back to the Nalia idea again. Why should only the small gaming communities have it great? Or should public games be whatever cesspool the gamers inside make them to be and the small gaming communities keep their values small-scale?

[Kasreyn]

I thought it was fun hunting for the jungle Kurast ones...

See, I find Act 3 to be fun, too. Especially the music. Act I I like for the plot, Act II for the atmosphere, Act III for the music and varied enemies, and Act IV... well, Act IV I don't like much, but the CS is a decent challenge at least. Act IV is just boring because I can't talk to the townies. =(

If it gives my weak and brittle Necromancer some more HP, I'll return the book.

What pisses me off is, sometimes I can't get the Jade Figurine quest. I'll go out and kill the first boss in the jungle and get... didley.

Rescuing Cain: You never leave that gin-soaked fogey swinging in the gibbet? "Heeeelp... *creak creak*"

LOL, I've done that before. Such fun. But one thing I never miss out on in Tristram is looting Wirt's corpse. Gimme my gold back, you little twerp!

His gossips are a riot, especially in Harrogath.

My personal favorites are from Gheed, Hratli, Lysander, and Alkor:

G: Guess what? I've named a boil on my ass after you...
H: People are a lot like rugs. Hang them out the window and shake them a few times, you'll be surprised how much dirt comes out.
L: ...There's old summoners and bold summoners, but no old, bold, summoners. (LOVE that!)
L: Pity about those poor harem girls, eh? I shall miss them deeply! Er... their... conversations, of course.
A: Oh, Ormus has been talking in riddles for years. I think he does it to disguise the fact that he's got nothing intelligent to say. (that was my opinion exactly, so I was shocked when Alkor said it for me ;-)
A: Oh, Asheara's a good customer! She buys a potion of manliness from me every week.

And lots of other amusing stuff. I pity the poor clods who think talking to townies is "boring" - they miss out on such cool stuff. ^_^

Sharpen your wit and prepare to do battle with the unarmed!

Is that a Lemming original? Because I'd like to honor that with a place in my quotes file. ^_^

EDIT: I HATE the quoting feature on this forum!

You're not the only one. Had to do this one by hand, the buttons weren't working. Probably my proxy. =\

As to the debate at hand: I don't see a problem with requiring a Diablo slaying to proceed to the next difficulty. I mean, the game IS called "DIABLO" 2, not "Adventures in Sanctuary". I don't know of many D1 variants that don't include "dotting", so why should the veterans complain about being required to do the equivalent of a "dot" in D2? But of course, in that case there would be someone SFing Diablo down low enough for a level 1 to kill him. In this case, let them try it. I'd love to see a level 1 eat LBOD.

I'm with Lemming on this, I guess. There seems to be no really good universal way of keeping level 1 rushbabies out of higher difficulties. Just set a minimum level req when creating games (30 NM, 50 Hell), and don't join games that lack such a req. Sounds better to me than inconveniencing variant players just for an attempt to curtail idiocy that's foredoomed to failure.

-Kasreyn

[LemmingofGlory]

Kas:
Sharpen your wit and prepare to do battle with the unarmed!
Is that a Lemming original? Because I'd like to honor that with a place in my quotes file.

(Edit: Answered this better in the other post.)

P:
Back to the Nalia idea again. Why should only the small gaming communities have it great?

I'm staring at this agape right now. You make it sound like it's some sort of special privilege!

Why are small communities great? Because they *make* it great. Because you can control quality by choosing who you'll game with. Public games are open to everyone. Unless you can add some sort of idiot barrier to prevent them from accessing Bnet, you can't keep them out of public games.

Or should public games be whatever cesspool the gamers inside make them to be and the small gaming communities keep their values small-scale?

Are you blaming small communities for not mixing with the idiots? Are you blaming them for not doing enough to breed a new brand of caring idiot who's genuinely concerned about the fun of his fellow playesr?

Good private games have nothing to do with public games sucking. There is no injustice here, Ms. de'Arnise. What you're seeing is the result of filtering idiots versus mixing with them (private vs public games). There's absolutely no way a small quantity of gamers can make the masses of idiot Bnet play with a concern for the fun of their peers. Well, not unless you...

(SPOILER)
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use the Illithid mind control circlets! They'll let you open the locked doors and kill the Idjithid Master Brain.

[o: *LEMMING* :o]

[Obi2Kenobi]

Sharpen your wit and prepare to do battle with the unarmed!

Is that a Lemming original? Because I'd like to honor that with a place in my quotes file. ^_^

Some person said something a lot like that before, only it was "I will not have a battle of wits with an unarmed person!"

[Feryar]

tiax is a great guy :lol:

[LemmingofGlory]

"I will not have a battle of wits with an unarmed person!"

I recall hearing that before somewhere; I know I was borrowing the "wit" and "unarmed" part from someone. I guess I just steered it in a different direction. ;)

[o: *LEMMING* :o]