1.10 Analyzation Debate...

[Growler]

... my post is clearly derivative from that other guy, the long winded naysayer.

Sorry for any confusion caused by my not having called him out by name.

[Fragbait]

Alright, I can see that now. Sorry for that, my fault. ;)

Greetings, Fragbait

[Growler]

v1.09 BSpear damage is 184-192 @ slvl 22 (from ChippyDip's)
v1.10 BSpear damage is 624-664 @ slvl 22 (from Arreat Summit)

Monster hitpoints have doubled in Hell mode (from Arreat Summit)
To keep pace, old BSpear would have to have doubled to 368-384.

The v1.10 BSpear damage then represents a 69.5% improvement in the effectiveness of BSpear. (624 divided by 368 expressed as %)

The improvement in this example did not come free but only with a substantial investment in skill points.

By the way what is the max improvement?
4 dependencies maxed is 4 X 140% or +560% extra damage

Let me guess (because guessing is fun!) the maxed out BSpear damage:
v1.09 BSpear damage is 168-176 @ slvl 20 (from ChippyDip's)
assuming base damage is doubled then
v1.10 BSpear damage is 336-352@ slvl 20

then compute the maxed damage as X 6.6 (100% + 560% = 660%)
v1.10 maxed BSpear damage is 2217-2323

Pretty Cool.

Well, I had fun!

Growler

[Growler]

Because there are so many skills at slvl 9 and Bone Armor is slvl 28 I will assume +8 to all skills. (it could be any combination of +Poison and Bone Skills and +All Skills)

Btw....with this assumed his invested skills are: (red are synergistic)
Teeth: 5
Bone Armor: 20
Poison Dagger: 1
Corpse Explosion: 4
Bone Wall: 1
Poison Explosion: 1
Bone Spear: 14
Bone Prison: 0
Poison Nova: 2
Bone Spirit: 1

Total synergistic +% damage is +49%

if Base Damage X 1.49 = 676
then Base Damage = 453

Base Damage in v1.09 @ slvl 22 is 184-192

The relative degree of improvement then is 2.47 (453/184) which is more than I figured in my other post.

Keeping the assumption that the new base damage is simply double the old base damage, it is possible to work backwards and figure the number of +7% bonuses that have been applied.

Working backwards, 12 levels of +7% is +84%.
Using the lower limit, 184 X 2 = 368
368 X 1.84 = 677

Which is close enough for D2 work. I think we have 12 levels of bonuses, distributed as:

Teeth: 6
Bone Wall: 2
Bone Prison: 2
Bone Spirit: 2

(so the skills are all at least slvl 2 and there are +6 slvls)

The undecipherable Bone Prison number is an 8, hidden under the colon where it says "MagicDamage:"

Growler

[Lord_Shad]

what abou magic resistances of hell monsters in 1.10? wouldn`t this make the bonespear effective dmg become less?

[Logic_X]

Information about monster base "magic" resistance isn't presently available for 1.10....also you can offset all but immunities with lower resist should any such increase in the number of "magic" resistant enemies appears. (I see them more gearing for lightning/fire/ice/poison/physical damage sources since they should also most likely recieve synergy bonuses making their damage far superior)

[Guest]

Im glad you made this thread. Its really good that we can keep all the complete speculation on one thread so its easy to ignore it.

But I do have one more idea.

Next time to be sure you keep all this postulating in one spot only post it on 1 forum. I think Diabloii.net might be the best.

[Logic_X]

If you are so eager to ignore it, then do so, like I said to Nico - this is not flamebait. I find posts like yours and nicodemus's in this thread very distasteful, and a very bad mark on this community as a whole. Seeing as how the "howling mindless idiots" who don't like my analysis threads are at least respectful enough to ignore them, where you are not.

Here's my idea - you feel like being detrimental to a conversation, go do so by yourself, and not in my thread.

Thank you for your time, No thank you for your rudeness.

If you have a problem with a post or thread of mine, PM the problem to me, don't put trash in the thread - it's bad manners, and I am tired of having to deal with innane rambling from people who should think before they post.

Now back to the actual purpose of this thread (keep it clean, keep it on subject).

[Guest]

Its like a dead crow beside a bean patch. It is unsightly, but it does serve as a ward.

[Dagni]

[/lurk]

Your numbers have a mistake, and there are a couple of other issues that you didn't address, Growler.

You used the lower limit of slvl 22 for the 1.09 skill, but the lower limit of slvl 23 for the 1.10 version.

The two other issues that need to be addressed pertain to the difference between the min and max. In 1.09, the difference was always 8. In the screenie the difference is 40 at slvl 22. But more significantly, the difference is 43 at slvl 23. So unless something very wierd is happening behind the scenes, from slvl 22 to 23, the max range is being increased slightly more than the min range.

Now then, the minimum synergy bonus is +49%, unless Teeth has an individual bonus, because with slvl 9 skills the most +skills to the entire tree is +8. So:

Base Skill =
Teeth: 5
Bone Wall: 1
Bone Prison: 0 (?)
Bone Spirit: 1

= 7 * 7% = +49%

419 * 1.49 = 624
446 * 1.49 = 664.54 = 664 if truncated

454 * 1.49 = 676
483 * 1.49 = 719.67 = 719 if truncated

So at slvl 22: 419-446 and slvl 23: 454-483. That's a +35-37 a level.

Projecting backward all the way to level 1 would get a negative result, but that's not surprising because likely the +dmg per slvl changes at slvls 8 and 16.

So projecting to slvl 16:

slvl 22 - 16 = 6

419 - 35 * 6 = 209
446 - 37 * 6 = 224

= 209-224 at slvl 16

A highly speculative but not too unreasonable belief is that Blizzard would have ONLY changed Bone Spear at the 8/16 breakpoints. I.E. that at slvl 8 with no synergies Bone Spear will be the same as in 1.09. That's 72-80 at slvl 8. Subtracting that from the projected slvl 16 and dividing by 8 would give the per level damage bonuses for the middle tier.

(209 - 72) / 8 = 17.125
(224 - 80) / 8 = 18

It doesn't seem likely that it'd be increasing by 17 and 1/8, so the final change I'll make to this guess is that slvl 1 got changed to 17-24, rather than 16
-24 as it is now, so then slvl 8 would be 73-80, and the +dmg per level from slvl 8-16 would be 17-18. (But, really, it seems more likely that the synergy bonus is something else than that Blizzard made that particular minor change.)

So, if the synergy bonus is indeed +49% in the screenshot, my prediction for the skill is:

for slvl 1-8:
min dmg:
9 + slvl*8
max dmg:
16 + slvl*8

for slvl 9-16:
min dmg:
73 + (slvl-8)*17
max dmg:
80 + (slvl-8)*18

for slvl 17+:
min dmg:
209 + [slvl-16]*35
max dmg:
224 + [slvl-16]*37

But that's trying the minimum value, which is going to give the highest base skill numbers.

------------------

Well, after having glanced at the version of this thread on diabloii.net, the general belief seems to be that Bone Spirit isn't slvl 9 in the screenshot, that it is two digits, and that Bone Prison is one digit. One person is sure that Bone Spirit is 28. Bone Prison's number appears to be blue-tinted, so it isn't zero. So if +skills = +8, Bone Prison must be 9.

So:
Teeth - 13
Bone Wall - 9
Bone Prison - 9?
Bone Spirit - 28?
+skills = +8?

That's a base of 5 + 1 + 1 + 20 = 27 * 7% = +189%

I won't write out all the math again just for these different numbers, but that gets:

slvl 22: 216-230
slvl 23: 234-249
or +18-19 per slvl.

Projected at slvl 16: 108-116. That's 28-28 less than 1.09 slvl 16 (136-144). Why? Probably this "nerf" is to balance out the fact that you can easily have a +100% synergy bonus when first getting Bone Spear. Since Bone Spear is already supposed to be fairly well balanced for Normal difficulty, a slight nerf was needed. Given that the difference is 28, the formula that seems to fit the best is the same slvl 1 dmg, +4 per slvl up to slvl 8, then +8 per slvl from slvl 9-16. So:

slvl 1: 16-24
slvl 20: 180-192

slvl 1-8:
min: 12 + 4*slvl
max: 20 + 4*slvl

slvl 9-16:
min: 44 + 8*(slvl - 8)
max: 52 + 8*(slvl - 8)

slvl 17+:
min: 108 + 18*(slvl - 16)
max: 116 + 19*(slvl - 16)

I predict that this is the exact formula for 1.10 Bone Spear. The numbers come out so well that I'd be surprised if this wasn't correct. Many arbitrary choices for synergy percentages can't even get the numbers shown on the screenshot without fractional base damage, much less give a estimated slvl 16 with exactly 8 dmg difference between min and max.

For example: if the synergy bonus is +56% (8*7%), then whether the base min dmg at slvl 23 is:
433, then 433 * 1.56 = 675.48
434, then 434 * 1.56 = 677.04

So there is no integer that, when multiplied by 1.56, will get 676 (nor 675.5-676.99, so it doesn't matter whether you round or truncate the fractional part).

- Dagni

[lurk]

[Occhidiangela]

Here's my idea - you feel like being detrimental to a conversation, go do so by yourself, and not in my thread.

You must be new here. Threads on this forum very frequently get hijacked. 'My thread' indeed. Claiming ownership of one is self importance in action.

Your point about tone and attitude, and sniping, has some merit, but maybe, just maybe, Ghostiger speaks for more than himself. By your own admission, in early posts, you acknowledge that you have posted this in multiple fora.

Some folks would call that spam.

I understand what you are trying to do, and why you wished to encourage speculative discussion. I would caution you against presuming ownership of a thread, or a conversation, unless you can back it up with more than posturing. Perhaps your approach is not fully consistent with the norms of the Lounge. Maybe that is why you have caught some flak here.

Carry on, friendly advice session complete. :)

[Brista]

Dagni, that looks very convincing

(For newer people, Dagni comes with a rather impressive track record, he's the person who figured out LoD ias if I'm not mistaken)

[Logic_X]

hmm.....that "my thread" thing was a slip of the tongue....was just getting tired of people interrupting the idea of the thread (it seemed more "flame" than "hijack" but that's just me....because it wasn't much more than a fundamental "j00 su><0r" kind of interruption in my eyes because it didn't bring up any even remotely relevant points regarding the subject or anything even remotely related to the subject...but that's just mho)....I put it on 3 different forum systems...so people who primarily posted on certain forums wouldn't have to go forum hopping and register to multiple forums, I do my best to limit the number of subjects I start (I think I've started *thinks*...maybe 2 subjects on LL, about 4 on dii.net...and 1 on AB).

As for comments involving the actual posts in this thread, bravo Dagni very complete :), that's the kind of stuff this thread is intended for :D.

Signed,
Logic_X
The Blunt, Abrassive, and sometimes annoying, but always insane analysis monkey. (no, I do not throw my poop....well...not very often)

[Archon_Wing]

You must be new here.&nbsp; Threads on this forum very frequently get hijacked.&nbsp; 'My thread' indeed.

I declare this thread to be mine! Only I can post in it now! :ph34r: Of all honesty though, sometimes hijacking threads is the right thing to do. ;)