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Item Generation question
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06-11-2003, 10:03 PM
How exactly does the game determine what skill level will show up on an item? For example, I believe I've read that level 1 skills such as Tiger Strike or Fire Blast will never show up on assassin claws (since the exceptional claws are always too high ilvl). I remember Jarulf's post on this topic pre-LOD, but I don't know how it was changed and can't find anything about it.
Any help appreciated - Dagni
I can't completely answer the question but for claws the ones that can have skills are designated h2h2 and the lower level ones (weapon type h2h) don't get them
I guess they felt that 2 +3 Tiger Strike Katars at level 1 would be over-powered :) (Ruvunal explained this at some stage, can't now find the post) I can offer the following based on play impressions, not technical info. Take with a large pinch of salt :) The following items can get skills as auto-mods: Amazon: Amazon-specific spears, javelins and bows Assassin: higher end claws (weapon type hth2) Barbs: barb hats Druids: druid hats Necros: wands, heads Pallies: sceptres Sorcs: Orbs, Staves As for number of skills it seems to be equally distributed between 0-3 As for skill level it seems to be equally distributed between levels 1-3 As for which skills appear it is always within 2 rows on the skilltab (the screen you get by pressing T). In other words an item can have a level 12, 18 and 24 skill but can't have a level 6, 18 and 24. 6 and 24 are too far apart At the start of the game only levels 1 and 6 appear in the vendor. At around 6th level (not too sure) you start to see level 12 skills As you progress through early Normal the skills you see gradually get higher. Eventually you only see level 30, 24, 18 (and I'm not sure about level 12) skills appear. Or to put that another way if you want to see low level skills, certainly level 1 and level 6 skills you need to farm Act 1 Normal or shop Akara or Gheed with a low level character. You will never find a + Corpse Explosion wand in Hell Cows. The Dark Wood is quite a good place to hunt out that wand or your Oak Sage hat or whatever it is you're looking for. It still takes a lot of patience :) You can shop in higher Acts, providing you keep the character level low but you might have a problem seeing items as they have a minimum level according to type. In other words, Drognan won't sell Bone Wands to a level 1 character After a while you stop seeing white and grey items in the shops - everything is magic. This can be a bit of a nuisance if you're shopping for runeword material It's very hard to find a 2 socket wand with a level 1 or 6 necro skill for instance as the first two types only get one socket and the third type is qlvl 18. You should be able to see Bone wands at Drognan and Ormus, I'm not sure yet whether you can shop a white bone wand there. (Something I've been planning to test for a while :) ) Edit: found the claws Type h2h (which can not get skills as automods): Katar, Wrist Blade, Hatchet hands, Cestus, Claws, Blade Talons, Scissors Katar, Quhab, Wrist spike, Fascia Type h2h2 (which can get skills as automods): Hand scythe, Greater claws, Greater talons, Scissors Quhab, Suwayyah, Wrist sword, War fist, Battle cestus, Feral claws, Runic talons, Scissors suwayyah
06-12-2003, 05:29 AM
Thanks much. Although much of that I already knew myself, I didn't know (or had forgot - it has been awhile since I've done anything D2-related) that not all of the exceptional claws can get +skills.
Are you certain that a single item can only have up to a 2 row difference? I'm fairly certain that a 3 row difference was possible pre-LOD, and it seems odd that it would become less now that level 30 skills are also available. Anyway, while I'd still like an exact formula :) the one thing that would be particularly nice to know right now is what IS the lowest that can ever spawn on a claw? That is, at the lowest possible ilvl for a Hand Scythe, what is the lowest possible skill row? - Dagni
06-12-2003, 05:50 AM
Dagni,Jun 12 2003, 05:20 AM Wrote:Are you certain that a single item can only have up to a 2 row difference?No :) Quote:the one thing that would be particularly nice to know right now is what IS the lowest that can ever spawn on a claw? Well, if I am right about the two row difference then you will never see a level 12 or lower skill on a claw (unless unique or set) Hand scythe is ilvl 41 according to this page: http://www.diabloii.net/items/class-specif...asn-excep.shtml
06-12-2003, 11:11 AM
Well, I went ahead and did some testing / shop-refreshing myself.
Briefly, with my level 29 character in NM/Act 2 I found that a wand/staff/etc could have level 6 - level 24 skills on them. Saw one specifically that had both. So 3 row difference max. I was surprised to find a Hand Scythe as well. Since I'm nowhere near level 41 (or really level 36, since clvl + 5 = ilvl for shops), I would assume that means that there is no ilvl vs qlvl check when upgrading an item from normal to exceptional in the shops. This should mean that if a low enough character is rushed to NM/Act 2, level 1 skills would be possible on claws. Anyway, I'm going to bed now, but I have a correlated theory that hopefully I'll get into tomorrow. - Dagni
06-12-2003, 09:14 PM
'Staffmod' selection:
First, the game chooses how many skills to add. It will do rnd[100], and add to it the ilvl of the item IF it is being imbued. Then, if higher than 90, 3 skills will be chosen. If higher than 70, 2 skills. If higher tan 30, 1. After this, it selects the skill id. It will start at a certain value depending on the ilvl: Above 36: 5 Between 24 and 36: 4 Between 18 and 24: 3 Between 18 and 11: 2 11 or lower: 1 This the becomes a base for all the skill ids. Then, it has a chance to be modified: 20% chance to add 1 50% chance to stay unmodified 10% chance to subtract 1 20% chance to subtract 2 If the item is low quality, then the skill id as of now is capped at 4. Then the final id is chosen from the formula below. skill_adder is the skill id so far, base_id is the starting id for the character class. id = skill_adder + (base_id + 4 * skill_adder) - 5 + rnd[5] If this ends as 73 (Poison Dagger), it will do the rnd[5] again. And finally, the total skill bonus is chosen. It will do rnd[100], and add to that ilvl / 2 if from imbue. If 90 or above, +3 Between 60 and 90: +2 Lower than 60: +1 This applies to: ItemType StaffMods Cloak ass <unused> Hand to Hand 2 ass Primal Helm bar Pelt dru Wand nec Voodoo Heads nec Scepter pal Staff sor Orb sor
06-12-2003, 10:17 PM
Just a couple of small things.
Quote:After this, it selects the skill id. It will start at a certain value depending on the ilvl:You seem to be clear about ilvl 36, but what about ilvls 11, 18, and 24? Which skill id will each return? Quote:This the becomes a base for all the skill ids. Then, it has a chance to be modified:Could you confirm this, or is it a typo? It would seem more logical for it to be 20% chance to subtract 1, 10% to subtract 2. Also when playing I'm pretty certain I saw a lot more of the '-1' group than the '-2'. Thanks again for your help - Dagni Quote:You seem to be clear about ilvl 36, but what about ilvls 11, 18, and 24? Which skill id will each return? It ranges from 1-11, 12-18, 19-24, 25-36. Quote:Could you confirm this, or is it a typo? It would seem more logical for it to be 20% chance to subtract 1, 10% to subtract 2. Also when playing I'm pretty certain I saw a lot more of the '-1' group than the '-2'. Ah, sorry. Yea, 10% chance to subtract 2, 20% chance to subtract 1. My bad. edit 1&2: quote tags :|
06-12-2003, 10:56 PM
Thanks Hammerman
As you may be coming to expect your post brings new questions This skill ID, does the last digit correspond to a row on the skill tab, so 6 would be level 30 skills and 1 would be level 1s? Also, it seems Poison Dagger can't spawn on Necro Heads then. Shame
06-12-2003, 11:08 PM
Brista,Jun 12 2003, 10:47 PM Wrote:This skill ID, does the last digit correspond to a row on the skill tab, so 6 would be level 30 skills and 1 would be level 1s?Eh, not following you. You'll start with a value from 1-5. Then there's a change to modify it slightly. You then add it to the formula as 'skill_adder', and the result from thta formula will be the skill id to choose.
06-13-2003, 03:16 AM
Hammerman,
Thanks for the information, but please keep in mind that many of the posters even here have never seen the contents of the MPQ file to know what you are referring to at times. You may occasionally need to explain some fo the basics of what you are referencing. Quote:If the item is low quality, then the skill id as of now is capped at 4. Then the final id is chosen from the formula below. skill_adder is the skill id so far, base_id is the starting id for the character class. The base_id that is referenced here is the first ID for that class from the skills.txt file (see below). The resulting id is the specific id from skills.txt. For those not familiar with some of the math functions the rnd[5] will give a range fo 0 to 4. id = skill_adder + (base_id + 4 * skill_adder) - 5 + rnd[5] Simplifing this some we would get: ID = base_id + 5*skill_adder -5 +(0 to 4) Looking at an example of a level 20 character looking at the sorceress staves in a shop. The ilvl of the items will be 25, which will make the skill_adder 3. As a bottom end adjustment you would get a -2 to this for skill_adder=1 then and the lowest possible ID would be ID = 36 (first sor skill in list) +(5*1) -5 +0(looking for the lowest ID) = 36 (Fire Bolt) and the highest would be if you had +1 to the skill_adder making it 4. Then the highest skill possible to be seen would be ID = 36+(5*4) -5 +4(for the highest ID) =55 (Glacial Spike) Questions for Hammerman. You were not very clear, but I take it that a single item will only get one modifier of +1, 0, -1, -2 that is applied to all of the skills that are placed on the item? Or is that factor re-randomised for each skill on the item. What did the code do in the case of selecting the same skill a second (or third time)? Reroll the skill or add with a cap of +3? I suspect reroll. Code: Id charclass skill
06-14-2003, 01:01 AM
Ruvanal,Jun 12 2003, 08:07 PM Wrote:The ilvl of the items will be 25, which will make the skill_adder 3.ilvl 25 = skill_adder 4. Based on Hammerman's post. - Dagni
06-14-2003, 04:32 AM
Dagni,Jun 13 2003, 08:52 PM Wrote:ilvl 25 = skill_adder 4. Based on Hammerman's post.Oops, you are right. That woul dend up making the range work out to be 41 (Inferno) to 60 (Chilling Armor). Also this looks like a more reasonable range to be seeing at this point in the game.
06-15-2003, 10:25 PM
Apologises all around.
Quote:Thanks for the information, but please keep in mind that many of the posters even here have never seen the contents of the MPQ file to know what you are referring to at times. You may occasionally need to explain some fo the basics of what you are referencing. Yea, I'm used to doing that over at the PK forums (and in my own personal notes, wich I often just copy from when posting)... use all sorts of lingo and abbrevations from the mpq files with no worries. That habit tends to stick at other forums. Quote:You were not very clear, but I take it that a single item will only get one modifier of +1, 0, -1, -2 that is applied to all of the skills that are placed on the item? Or is that factor re-randomised for each skill on the item. From my original post: Quote:Above 36: 5 This is a static value, and when the following modifications are done it applies only to the current skill_adder. Quote:20% chance to add 1 One thing that I dont think i mentioned before; the above value is capped at 4 if the item is low quality. Then throws it into the formula. Quote:What did the code do in the case of selecting the same skill a second (or third time)? Reroll the skill or add with a cap of +3? I suspect reroll. And reroll it is... sorta. It will do the same as if it had chosen Poison Dagger, add another rnd[5] at the end. And just to be clear, it will not replace the previous rnd[5], but add it to the result. OT: How does one add a name after the 'Quote' text? Ie. QUOTE (Ruvanal) [text to quote]
06-16-2003, 02:16 AM
Thanks Hammerman. I missed noting a couple of those points the first time from trying to aborb it all quickly.
Hammerman: Quote:OT: How does one add a name after the 'Quote' text? Ie. QUOTE (Ruvanal) [text to quote]For my speed I usually just use the orginal posters name with a colon just before the quoted material. This thread should explain how to do some of the fancier things that you see being done. http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/in...ST&f=29&t=26075 different forum, but the same basic software. Quote:Yea, I'm used to doing that over at the PK forums (and in my own personal notes, wich I often just copy from when posting)... use all sorts of lingo and abbrevations from the mpq files with no worries. That habit tends to stick at other forums.I used to have to frequently give technical discussion about some software systems to fome fellow workers. Many of them did good to know how to even turn the computers on so it sort of teaches you that have to 'talk' at your 'listners' knowledge level. It just takes a while sometimes to get used to knowing just what that is going to be in some areas. If you tried putting this into the diabloii.net forums, it would have need to be alot simpler than this :P Quote:And reroll it is... sorta. It will do the same as if it had chosen Poison Dagger, add another rnd[5] at the end. And just to be clear, it will not replace the previous rnd[5], but add it to the result.Yes that is more clear and somewhat interesting. It could end up meaning that you could get a skill higher than what could be normally expected by this. In a very extream case you might even get one that is possibly +8 higher. Example of this; 3 staffmods: first roll is max, second is max and reroll is +4, third is max with a first reroll of +4 and second reroll of another +4 (will it actually work this way?). Any checks to make sure that these rerolls do not go beyond the top skill for that particular class?
06-16-2003, 04:32 AM
Ruvanal,Jun 15 2003, 07:07 PM Wrote:In a very extream case you might even get one that is possibly +8 higher. Example of this; 3 staffmods: first roll is max, second is max and reroll is +4, third is max with a first reroll of +4 and second reroll of another +4 (will it actually work this way?).Or in the extreme case, a level 1 character could see a wand (or totem) with (77) Terror, (81) Confuse, (85) BloodGolem. That would require Poison Dagger to be selected each time, and then every extra rnd[5] to be maxed, and would give a level 12 and two level 18 skills when the normal max is level 6. The exact chance of this (for a level 1 char) is, I believe, 0.1*(0.2)^12 = 0.0000000004096 = 1 in 2,441,406,250 chances. The 'regular' extreme case would be a whopping 125 times as likely. - Dagni 
07-25-2003, 03:36 AM
Hammerman,Jun 12 2003, 02:05 PM Wrote:After this, it selects the skill id. It will start at a certain value depending on the ilvl:Since the skill id is cannot be lower than 1 (otherwise skill from different class will be selected), I assume there's some verification for that, isn't it? The question: what happens if, say, 1 is selected first, and then game rolls 10% chance to subtract 2 (making id = -1)? I believe, it's staying unmodified (i.e. +1), but knowing Blizzard it may be other way around. |
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