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Item Generation question - Dagni - 06-11-2003

How exactly does the game determine what skill level will show up on an item? For example, I believe I've read that level 1 skills such as Tiger Strike or Fire Blast will never show up on assassin claws (since the exceptional claws are always too high ilvl). I remember Jarulf's post on this topic pre-LOD, but I don't know how it was changed and can't find anything about it.

Any help appreciated

- Dagni


Item Generation question - Brista - 06-12-2003

I can't completely answer the question but for claws the ones that can have skills are designated h2h2 and the lower level ones (weapon type h2h) don't get them

I guess they felt that 2 +3 Tiger Strike Katars at level 1 would be over-powered :)

(Ruvunal explained this at some stage, can't now find the post)

I can offer the following based on play impressions, not technical info. Take with a large pinch of salt :)

The following items can get skills as auto-mods:
Amazon: Amazon-specific spears, javelins and bows
Assassin: higher end claws (weapon type hth2)
Barbs: barb hats
Druids: druid hats
Necros: wands, heads
Pallies: sceptres
Sorcs: Orbs, Staves

As for number of skills it seems to be equally distributed between 0-3

As for skill level it seems to be equally distributed between levels 1-3

As for which skills appear it is always within 2 rows on the skilltab (the screen you get by pressing T). In other words an item can have a level 12, 18 and 24 skill but can't have a level 6, 18 and 24. 6 and 24 are too far apart

At the start of the game only levels 1 and 6 appear in the vendor. At around 6th level (not too sure) you start to see level 12 skills

As you progress through early Normal the skills you see gradually get higher. Eventually you only see level 30, 24, 18 (and I'm not sure about level 12) skills appear. Or to put that another way if you want to see low level skills, certainly level 1 and level 6 skills you need to farm Act 1 Normal or shop Akara or Gheed with a low level character. You will never find a + Corpse Explosion wand in Hell Cows. The Dark Wood is quite a good place to hunt out that wand or your Oak Sage hat or whatever it is you're looking for. It still takes a lot of patience :)

You can shop in higher Acts, providing you keep the character level low but you might have a problem seeing items as they have a minimum level according to type. In other words, Drognan won't sell Bone Wands to a level 1 character

After a while you stop seeing white and grey items in the shops - everything is magic. This can be a bit of a nuisance if you're shopping for runeword material

It's very hard to find a 2 socket wand with a level 1 or 6 necro skill for instance as the first two types only get one socket and the third type is qlvl 18. You should be able to see Bone wands at Drognan and Ormus, I'm not sure yet whether you can shop a white bone wand there. (Something I've been planning to test for a while :) )

Edit: found the claws

Type h2h (which can not get skills as automods):
Katar, Wrist Blade, Hatchet hands, Cestus, Claws, Blade Talons, Scissors Katar, Quhab, Wrist spike, Fascia

Type h2h2 (which can get skills as automods):
Hand scythe, Greater claws, Greater talons, Scissors Quhab, Suwayyah, Wrist sword, War fist, Battle cestus, Feral claws, Runic talons, Scissors suwayyah


Item Generation question - Dagni - 06-12-2003

Thanks much. Although much of that I already knew myself, I didn't know (or had forgot - it has been awhile since I've done anything D2-related) that not all of the exceptional claws can get +skills.

Are you certain that a single item can only have up to a 2 row difference? I'm fairly certain that a 3 row difference was possible pre-LOD, and it seems odd that it would become less now that level 30 skills are also available.

Anyway, while I'd still like an exact formula :) the one thing that would be particularly nice to know right now is what IS the lowest that can ever spawn on a claw? That is, at the lowest possible ilvl for a Hand Scythe, what is the lowest possible skill row?

- Dagni


Item Generation question - Brista - 06-12-2003

Dagni,Jun 12 2003, 05:20 AM Wrote:Are you certain that a single item can only have up to a 2 row difference?
No :)

Quote:the one thing that would be particularly nice to know right now is what IS the lowest that can ever spawn on a claw?

Well, if I am right about the two row difference then you will never see a level 12 or lower skill on a claw (unless unique or set)

Hand scythe is ilvl 41 according to this page:
http://www.diabloii.net/items/class-specif...asn-excep.shtml


Item Generation question - Dagni - 06-12-2003

Well, I went ahead and did some testing / shop-refreshing myself.

Briefly, with my level 29 character in NM/Act 2 I found that a wand/staff/etc could have level 6 - level 24 skills on them. Saw one specifically that had both. So 3 row difference max.

I was surprised to find a Hand Scythe as well. Since I'm nowhere near level 41 (or really level 36, since clvl + 5 = ilvl for shops), I would assume that means that there is no ilvl vs qlvl check when upgrading an item from normal to exceptional in the shops. This should mean that if a low enough character is rushed to NM/Act 2, level 1 skills would be possible on claws.

Anyway, I'm going to bed now, but I have a correlated theory that hopefully I'll get into tomorrow.

- Dagni


Item Generation question - Brista - 06-12-2003

Very interesting

PM me if you want a character PA-ed


Item Generation question - Hammerman - 06-12-2003

'Staffmod' selection:

First, the game chooses how many skills to add. It will do rnd[100], and add to it the ilvl of the item IF it is being imbued. Then, if higher than 90, 3 skills will be chosen. If higher than 70, 2 skills. If higher tan 30, 1.

After this, it selects the skill id. It will start at a certain value depending on the ilvl:

Above 36: 5
Between 24 and 36: 4
Between 18 and 24: 3
Between 18 and 11: 2
11 or lower: 1

This the becomes a base for all the skill ids. Then, it has a chance to be modified:

20% chance to add 1
50% chance to stay unmodified
10% chance to subtract 1
20% chance to subtract 2

If the item is low quality, then the skill id as of now is capped at 4. Then the final id is chosen from the formula below. skill_adder is the skill id so far, base_id is the starting id for the character class.

id = skill_adder + (base_id + 4 * skill_adder) - 5 + rnd[5]

If this ends as 73 (Poison Dagger), it will do the rnd[5] again. And finally, the total skill bonus is chosen. It will do rnd[100], and add to that ilvl / 2 if from imbue.

If 90 or above, +3
Between 60 and 90: +2
Lower than 60: +1

This applies to:

ItemType StaffMods

Cloak ass <unused>
Hand to Hand 2 ass
Primal Helm bar
Pelt dru
Wand nec
Voodoo Heads nec
Scepter pal
Staff sor
Orb sor


Item Generation question - Dagni - 06-12-2003

Just a couple of small things.

Quote:After this, it selects the skill id. It will start at a certain value depending on the ilvl:

Above 36: 5
Between 24 and 36: 4
Between 18 and 24: 3
Between 18 and 11: 2
11 or lower: 1
You seem to be clear about ilvl 36, but what about ilvls 11, 18, and 24? Which skill id will each return?

Quote:This the becomes a base for all the skill ids. Then, it has a chance to be modified:

20% chance to add 1
50% chance to stay unmodified
10% chance to subtract 1
20% chance to subtract 2
Could you confirm this, or is it a typo? It would seem more logical for it to be 20% chance to subtract 1, 10% to subtract 2. Also when playing I'm pretty certain I saw a lot more of the '-1' group than the '-2'.

Thanks again for your help

- Dagni


Item Generation question - Hammerman - 06-12-2003

Quote:You seem to be clear about ilvl 36, but what about ilvls 11, 18, and 24? Which skill id will each return?

It ranges from 1-11, 12-18, 19-24, 25-36.

Quote:Could you confirm this, or is it a typo? It would seem more logical for it to be 20% chance to subtract 1, 10% to subtract 2. Also when playing I'm pretty certain I saw a lot more of the '-1' group than the '-2'.

Ah, sorry. Yea, 10% chance to subtract 2, 20% chance to subtract 1. My bad.

edit 1&2: quote tags :|


Item Generation question - Brista - 06-12-2003

Thanks Hammerman

As you may be coming to expect your post brings new questions

This skill ID, does the last digit correspond to a row on the skill tab, so 6 would be level 30 skills and 1 would be level 1s?

Also, it seems Poison Dagger can't spawn on Necro Heads then. Shame


Item Generation question - Hammerman - 06-12-2003

Brista,Jun 12 2003, 10:47 PM Wrote:This skill ID, does the last digit correspond to a row on the skill tab, so 6 would be level 30 skills and 1 would be level 1s?
Eh, not following you. You'll start with a value from 1-5. Then there's a change to modify it slightly. You then add it to the formula as 'skill_adder', and the result from thta formula will be the skill id to choose.


Item Generation question - Ruvanal - 06-13-2003

Hammerman,
Thanks for the information, but please keep in mind that many of the posters even here have never seen the contents of the MPQ file to know what you are referring to at times. You may occasionally need to explain some fo the basics of what you are referencing.

Quote:If the item is low quality, then the skill id as of now is capped at 4. Then the final id is chosen from the formula below. skill_adder is the skill id so far, base_id is the starting id for the character class.

id = skill_adder + (base_id + 4 * skill_adder) - 5 + rnd[5]

If this ends as 73 (Poison Dagger), it will do the rnd[5] again. And finally, the total skill bonus is chosen. It will do rnd[100], and add to that ilvl / 2 if from imbue.

The base_id that is referenced here is the first ID for that class from the skills.txt file (see below). The resulting id is the specific id from skills.txt. For those not familiar with some of the math functions the rnd[5] will give a range fo 0 to 4.

id = skill_adder + (base_id + 4 * skill_adder) - 5 + rnd[5]
Simplifing this some we would get:
ID = base_id + 5*skill_adder -5 +(0 to 4)

Looking at an example of a level 20 character looking at the sorceress staves in a shop. The ilvl of the items will be 25, which will make the skill_adder 3. As a bottom end adjustment you would get a -2 to this for skill_adder=1 then and the lowest possible ID would be
ID = 36 (first sor skill in list) +(5*1) -5 +0(looking for the lowest ID)
= 36 (Fire Bolt)
and the highest would be if you had +1 to the skill_adder making it 4. Then the highest skill possible to be seen would be
ID = 36+(5*4) -5 +4(for the highest ID)
=55 (Glacial Spike)

Questions for Hammerman.
You were not very clear, but I take it that a single item will only get one modifier of +1, 0, -1, -2 that is applied to all of the skills that are placed on the item? Or is that factor re-randomised for each skill on the item.

What did the code do in the case of selecting the same skill a second (or third time)? Reroll the skill or add with a cap of +3? I suspect reroll.



Code:
Id    charclass    skill
6    ama    Magic Arrow
7    ama    Fire Arrow
8    ama    Inner Sight
9    ama    Critical Strike
10    ama    Jab
11    ama    Cold Arrow
12    ama    Multiple Shot
13    ama    Dodge
14    ama    Power Strike
15    ama    Poison Javelin
16    ama    Exploding Arrow
17    ama    Slow Missiles
18    ama    Avoid
19    ama    Impale
20    ama    Lightning Bolt
21    ama    Ice Arrow
22    ama    Guided Arrow
23    ama    Penetrate
24    ama    Charged Strike
25    ama    Plague Javelin
26    ama    Strafe
27    ama    Immolation Arrow
28    ama    Dopplezon
29    ama    Evade
30    ama    Fend
31    ama    Freezing Arrow
32    ama    Valkyrie
33    ama    Pierce
34    ama    Lightning Strike
35    ama    Lightning Fury
36    sor    Fire Bolt
37    sor    Warmth
38    sor    Charged Bolt
39    sor    Ice Bolt
40    sor    Frozen Armor
41    sor    Inferno
42    sor    Static Field
43    sor    Telekinesis
44    sor    Frost Nova
45    sor    Ice Blast
46    sor    Blaze
47    sor    Fire Ball
48    sor    Nova
49    sor    Lightning
50    sor    Shiver Armor
51    sor    Fire Wall
52    sor    Enchant
53    sor    Chain Lightning
54    sor    Teleport
55    sor    Glacial Spike
56    sor    Meteor
57    sor    Thunder Storm
58    sor    Energy Shield
59    sor    Blizzard
60    sor    Chilling Armor
61    sor    Fire Mastery
62    sor    Hydra
63    sor    Lightning Mastery
64    sor    Frozen Orb
65    sor    Cold Mastery
66    nec    Amplify Damage
67    nec    Teeth
68    nec    Bone Armor
69    nec    Skeleton Mastery
70    nec    Raise Skeleton
71    nec    Dim Vision
72    nec    Weaken
73    nec    Poison Dagger
74    nec    Corpse Explosion
75    nec    Clay Golem
76    nec    Iron Maiden
77    nec    Terror
78    nec    Bone Wall
79    nec    Golem Mastery
80    nec    Raise Skeletal Mage
81    nec    Confuse
82    nec    Life Tap
83    nec    Poison Explosion
84    nec    Bone Spear
85    nec    BloodGolem
86    nec    Attract
87    nec    Decrepify
88    nec    Bone Prison
89    nec    Summon Resist
90    nec    IronGolem
91    nec    Lower Resist
92    nec    Poison Nova
93    nec    Bone Spirit
94    nec    FireGolem
95    nec    Revive
96    pal    Sacrifice
97    pal    Smite
98    pal    Might
99    pal    Prayer
100    pal    Resist Fire
101    pal    Holy Bolt
102    pal    Holy Fire
103    pal    Thorns
104    pal    Defiance
105    pal    Resist Cold
106    pal    Zeal
107    pal    Charge
108    pal    Blessed Aim
109    pal    Cleansing
110    pal    Resist Lightning
111    pal    Vengeance
112    pal    Blessed Hammer
113    pal    Concentration
114    pal    Holy Freeze
115    pal    Vigor
116    pal    Conversion
117    pal    Holy Shield
118    pal    Holy Shock
119    pal    Sanctuary
120    pal    Meditation
121    pal    Fist of the Heavens
122    pal    Fanaticism
123    pal    Conviction
124    pal    Redemption
125    pal    Salvation
126    bar    Bash
127    bar    Sword Mastery
128    bar    Axe Mastery
129    bar    Mace Mastery
130    bar    Howl
131    bar    Find Potion
132    bar    Leap
133    bar    Double Swing
134    bar    Pole Arm Mastery
135    bar    Throwing Mastery
136    bar    Spear Mastery
137    bar    Taunt
138    bar    Shout
139    bar    Stun
140    bar    Double Throw
141    bar    Increased Stamina
142    bar    Find Item
143    bar    Leap Attack
144    bar    Concentrate
145    bar    Iron Skin
146    bar    Battle Cry
147    bar    Frenzy
148    bar    Increased Speed
149    bar    Battle Orders
150    bar    Grim Ward
151    bar    Whirlwind
152    bar    Berserk
153    bar    Natural Resistance
154    bar    War Cry
155    bar    Battle Command
221    dru    Raven
222    dru    Plague Poppy
223    dru    Wearwolf
224    dru    Shape Shifting
225    dru    Firestorm
226    dru    Oak Sage
227    dru    Summon Spirit Wolf
228    dru    Wearbear
229    dru    Molten Boulder
230    dru    Arctic Blast
231    dru    Cycle of Life
232    dru    Feral Rage
233    dru    Maul
234    dru    Eruption
235    dru    Cyclone Armor
236    dru    Heart of Wolverine
237    dru    Summon Fenris
238    dru    Rabies
239    dru    Fire Claws
240    dru    Twister
241    dru    Vines
242    dru    Hunger
243    dru    Shock Wave
244    dru    Volcano
245    dru    Tornado
246    dru    Spirit of Barbs
247    dru    Summon Grizzly
248    dru    Fury
249    dru    Armageddon
250    dru    Hurricane
251    ass    Fire Trauma
252    ass    Claw Mastery
253    ass    Psychic Hammer
254    ass    Tiger Strike
255    ass    Dragon Talon
256    ass    Shock Field
257    ass    Blade Sentinel
258    ass    Quickness
259    ass    Fists of Fire
260    ass    Dragon Claw
261    ass    Charged Bolt Sentry
262    ass    Wake of Fire Sentry
263    ass    Weapon Block
264    ass    Cloak of Shadows
265    ass    Cobra Strike
266    ass    Blade Fury
267    ass    Fade
268    ass    Shadow Warrior
269    ass    Claws of Thunder
270    ass    Dragon Tail
271    ass    Lightning Sentry
272    ass    Inferno Sentry
273    ass    Mind Blast
274    ass    Blades of Ice
275    ass    Dragon Flight
276    ass    Death Sentry
277    ass    Blade Shield
278    ass    Venom
279    ass    Shadow Master
280    ass    Royal Strike



Item Generation question - Brista - 06-13-2003

Thank you :)


Item Generation question - Dagni - 06-14-2003

Ruvanal,Jun 12 2003, 08:07 PM Wrote:The ilvl of the items will be 25, which will make the skill_adder 3.
ilvl 25 = skill_adder 4. Based on Hammerman's post.

- Dagni


Item Generation question - Ruvanal - 06-14-2003

Dagni,Jun 13 2003, 08:52 PM Wrote:ilvl 25 = skill_adder 4. Based on Hammerman's post.

- Dagni
Oops, you are right.

That woul dend up making the range work out to be 41 (Inferno) to 60 (Chilling Armor).

Also this looks like a more reasonable range to be seeing at this point in the game.


Item Generation question - Hammerman - 06-15-2003

Apologises all around.

Quote:Thanks for the information, but please keep in mind that many of the posters even here have never seen the contents of the MPQ file to know what you are referring to at times. You may occasionally need to explain some fo the basics of what you are referencing.

Yea, I'm used to doing that over at the PK forums (and in my own personal notes, wich I often just copy from when posting)... use all sorts of lingo and abbrevations from the mpq files with no worries. That habit tends to stick at other forums.

Quote:You were not very clear, but I take it that a single item will only get one modifier of +1, 0, -1, -2 that is applied to all of the skills that are placed on the item? Or is that factor re-randomised for each skill on the item.

From my original post:

Quote:Above 36: 5
Between 24 and 36: 4
Between 18 and 24: 3
Between 18 and 11: 2
11 or lower: 1

This the becomes a base for all the skill ids.

This is a static value, and when the following modifications are done it applies only to the current skill_adder.

Quote:20% chance to add 1
50% chance to stay unmodified
20% chance to subtract 1
10% chance to subtract 2

One thing that I dont think i mentioned before; the above value is capped at 4 if the item is low quality.
Then throws it into the formula.

Quote:What did the code do in the case of selecting the same skill a second (or third time)? Reroll the skill or add with a cap of +3? I suspect reroll.

And reroll it is... sorta. It will do the same as if it had chosen Poison Dagger, add another rnd[5] at the end. And just to be clear, it will not replace the previous rnd[5], but add it to the result.

OT: How does one add a name after the 'Quote' text? Ie. QUOTE (Ruvanal) [text to quote]


Item Generation question - Ruvanal - 06-16-2003

Thanks Hammerman. I missed noting a couple of those points the first time from trying to aborb it all quickly.

Hammerman:
Quote:OT: How does one add a name after the 'Quote' text? Ie. QUOTE (Ruvanal) [text to quote]
For my speed I usually just use the orginal posters name with a colon just before the quoted material. This thread should explain how to do some of the fancier things that you see being done.
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/in...ST&f=29&t=26075
different forum, but the same basic software.

Quote:Yea, I'm used to doing that over at the PK forums (and in my own personal notes, wich I often just copy from when posting)... use all sorts of lingo and abbrevations from the mpq files with no worries. That habit tends to stick at other forums.
I used to have to frequently give technical discussion about some software systems to fome fellow workers. Many of them did good to know how to even turn the computers on so it sort of teaches you that have to 'talk' at your 'listners' knowledge level. It just takes a while sometimes to get used to knowing just what that is going to be in some areas. If you tried putting this into the diabloii.net forums, it would have need to be alot simpler than this :P

Quote:And reroll it is... sorta. It will do the same as if it had chosen Poison Dagger, add another rnd[5] at the end. And just to be clear, it will not replace the previous rnd[5], but add it to the result.
Yes that is more clear and somewhat interesting. It could end up meaning that you could get a skill higher than what could be normally expected by this. In a very extream case you might even get one that is possibly +8 higher. Example of this; 3 staffmods: first roll is max, second is max and reroll is +4, third is max with a first reroll of +4 and second reroll of another +4 (will it actually work this way?). Any checks to make sure that these rerolls do not go beyond the top skill for that particular class?


Item Generation question - Dagni - 06-16-2003

Ruvanal,Jun 15 2003, 07:07 PM Wrote:In a very extream case you might even get one that is possibly +8 higher.&nbsp; Example of this; 3 staffmods: first roll is max, second is max and reroll is +4, third is max with a first reroll of +4 and second reroll of another +4 (will it actually work this way?).
Or in the extreme case, a level 1 character could see a wand (or totem) with (77) Terror, (81) Confuse, (85) BloodGolem. That would require Poison Dagger to be selected each time, and then every extra rnd[5] to be maxed, and would give a level 12 and two level 18 skills when the normal max is level 6. The exact chance of this (for a level 1 char) is, I believe, 0.1*(0.2)^12 = 0.0000000004096 = 1 in 2,441,406,250 chances. The 'regular' extreme case would be a whopping 125 times as likely.

- Dagni


Item Generation question - Epi - 07-25-2003

Hammerman,Jun 12 2003, 02:05 PM Wrote:After this, it selects the skill id. It will start at a certain value depending on the ilvl:

Above 36: 5
Between 24 and 36: 4
Between 18 and 24: 3
Between 18 and 11: 2
11 or lower: 1

This the becomes a base for all the skill ids. Then, it has a chance to be modified:

20% chance to add 1
50% chance to stay unmodified
20% chance to subtract 1
10% chance to subtract 2&nbsp; <- (typo fixed -Epi.)

If the item is low quality, then the skill id as of now is capped at 4.
Since the skill id is cannot be lower than 1 (otherwise skill from different class will be selected), I assume there's some verification for that, isn't it?

The question: what happens if, say, 1 is selected first, and then game rolls 10% chance to subtract 2 (making id = -1)? I believe, it's staying unmodified (i.e. +1), but knowing Blizzard it may be other way around.


Item Generation question - Dagni - 07-25-2003

Yeah, I'm sure it stays unmodified at 1. Simply shopping with a level 1 character shows that it works properly, with 80% of the +skills being to tier 1 skills.

- Dagni