Disgusted with Paladins 1.10
#1
I'm very unimpressed with this beta. I really wanted to enjoy playing the Paladin. Instead I got to enjoy playing just about every other class with a wild array of builds and found that basically large portions of the Paladin's functionality have had the door slammed on them.

- Paladin life is a problem. One of the big headaches in this patch is his inherent lack of life coupled with massively upgraded monster damage. While he does use 75% resists and blocking to save his bacon, these hardly matter once the damage comes through and suddenly it's curtains for Mr. Pally. Monster Critical Hits are something to be feared in Hell level. Rot Walker Critical Hits when Charging . . . oh I could go on, but it's just too depressing.

- Smite is in trouble. 40 points into two skills and my Smiting Defiant was doing better or similar damage with 4 points in Zeal. Additionally the inability to carry Poison Damage coupled with the horrendous life and regeneration of monsters makes the game exponentially more difficult with each additional player for a Smiter. Granted, that's all item dependant but Moonfall for the Zeal used to be quite well balanced against his Royal Shield for Smiting to the point where they should both be equally crappy. Zeal got amped. Smite looks like it got forgotten.

- Speaking of the Defiant, I was 'absolutely thrilled' to see that a Barbarian's Shout Warcry can now start at 1 minute, 30 seconds, making it a true fire and forget skill, added to Iron Skin, a Defiance merc and potentially the Concentrate skill for incredible levels of Defence. That's before mentioning another Warcry can easily tack 40% extra life on a Barbarian too. Meanwhile the Defiant gets Holy Shield, which takes on +15% Defence per level from Defiance applied to the entire Defence, yet it still starts at 30 seconds. End result? The 'master of defence' is a comparative embarrassment against the Barbarian, doesn't get hit much, but can't hit back much either, so this old build is still back on the scrapheap.

EDIT: Due to confusion over the above paragraph I realize I missed out mentioning Warcry durations are relative to Synergy interaction - Appologies for the gaffe.

- Holy Shield now works on entire defence instead of shield defence. This is a long overdue move and being the only skill a Paladin gets for survival while retaining attack ability usually winds up sucking 20 points away from anything else the Paladin tries to do, because . . . oh I mentioned life already. What it could use now is the same 1 minute, 30 seconds starting duration that certain Barbarian Warcries recieve and a hell of a lot better support for Smite.

- Charge is bugged to questionable usefulness. On one hand it seems to benefit from run speed now, but on the other, the age-old click & hold attack pattern results in the second Charge reducing the Paladin to running on the spot. It's like watching a Wily E Coyote death scene unfolding before your very eyes sometimes.

- Vengeance, in spite of being granted four Synergies, remains almost the same as before. The reason why is that there is simply not enough points to go around. Realistically this is a two Synergy skill with Holy Fire and Holy Freeze being prerequisites for Conviction and difficult to invest in because of points going into Holy Shield (to stay alive long enough to hit something) and Meditation (to pay for Vengeance). Fortunately Avengers can actually get around in Act 5 Hell, although most of mercenaries you'll see with them will probably be Cold Iron Wolves and Holy Freeze Spearmen, because of the much-needed protection they give.

- Conversion is as horrible as ever. Now you too can have your very own 16 second friend and it'll only cost you points you don't dare waste.

- Offensive Auras are basically their same old usual selves. For some reason the elemental ones benefit from corresponding elemental skills on the defensive tree and Fanaticism is now a Synergy for Sacrifice (Which it usually supports directly anyway *cringe*). Given the ineptitude evident in overall Paladin Synergy design I'd say that Blessed Aim providing AR versus Undead as a Sanctuary Synergy would be both entirely logical at this point and also complete wishful thinking. :P It's a pity Blessed Aim is too busy granting damage to Blessed Hammer instead (assuming that entry is even correct!).

- Holy Freeze? Merc Skill. In fact it makes one of the strongest mercs stronger.

- Thorns was is very weak now and needs synergy support. BADLY. Particularly galling is the fact that any number of Offensive Auras are just sitting there doing nothing when such things as Holy Fire and Sanctuary look perfect for adding reflected damage of various specialized forms! <_<

- Conviction. Wow. The one skill in the entire game that practically can't be upgraded just got an upgrade. I'm impressed. It can de-immunize the Immune. Much as I really love the fact that this helps the Fist of Heavens become viable throughout the game, I lament the lack of comparable upgrades throughout the Paladin skill set. Blizzard? This is great. Now can you do something for Smite please?

- The Defensive Aura Tree is now the 'Passive Upgrade' Tree with some of the skills operating as a Mastery for an obscure beneficiary in the other two trees. Coherent words most often used to describe this mess are often referred to as "expletives" or "profanity", but for the most part I've been vastly extending my vocabulary of inarticulate choking noises over this crap.

- Prayer got an upgrade with the pulse occuring every 2 seconds instead of 3, plus a modest +1 life healed per 5 levels roughly that ultimately manages to fall way behind the upgraded attacking power of monsters. Prayer's purpose now is to grant its healing effect to Meditation and Cleansing, thus rolling two Auras into one. I like this actually. It's pretty weak in the revamped game, but at least it starts becoming an option to compete with a TP scroll . . . or does it?

- Meditation, Cleansing? See Prayer.

- Defiance adds to Holy Shield defence and with no points to spare is still a Mercenary-only skill. *chokes* With the advent of Synergies, Paladin Auras that have the potential to exceed those of mercenaries remain mostly unchanged. GG Blizzard. What it needs is a reward for Paladins to actively run it.

- Vigor seems to be the weapon of choice for upgrading damage all over the show as a Synergy. This is really a subliminal message from Blizzard stating that a Paladin's greatest weapon is his ability to run away.

- Resist Fire, Cold, Lightning was crap, is crap, is Synergy, annoys me no end. Shields, Diamonds and Um Runes have these so completely outclassed that turning skills no-one wants into Passives just hurts.

- Salvation? Ditto.

- Synergy skills generally fall into the catagory of "otherwise useless point diversion". While most other classes can take their favourite skills and ramp them up with a useful situational skill that is often already among the pre-requisite skills, the Paladin gets to throw away points into seldom used skills, frequently on another tree entirely! Additionally the Synergies are so few in number that there is very little choice in spending, thus forcing the player into a small number of tightly defined grooves. I could have sworn I read something about improving player diversity. Does this mean Comical Ali works for Blizzard now??? :blink:

It stikes me that in order to create an effective Synergy system that works properly, you have to establish a pattern and stick to it. The worst case senario would be to establish a rule and then ignore it in favour of a mindless array of skill interactions - some additive, some multiplicative, some just plain stupid - pretty much like what the Paladin exhibits now. Well it's too late to save them now I suppose. It's too late to say "stick to single trees please". Maybe it's not too late for a little damage control in which a concientious Blizzard programmer takes the trouble to try and complete the list of synergies before 1.10 gets released for real. Then the QA people can do what they've never done before and try a realistic equipment loadout that doesn't involve complete Griswold sets and +9 All Skills to actually get a handle on ALL of the skills behaving appropriately in the game.

Nah, who am I kidding? The Paladins were always in the running for getting the shaft and I don't see that situation changing any time soon.
Heed the Song of Battle and Unsheath the Blades of War
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#2
Im not commenting on the hitpoints, I dont have any idea about it so Ill take you at your word that its a problem.

But your other complaints seem to be that you cant play/build a paladin the way you want to. It seems to me there are several viable and intersting builds.

Maybe we should hold off on the rants till we get more of them checked out.
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#3
I haven"t had a close look at every class.

But those I've had a look at (Assassin, Barbarian) didn't impress me much.

Some good ideas, like Berserk granting some magical damage to Frenzy and another skill. The base idea here is ok, although it could have been much better.
I've long though that berserk doing magical damage was a lame solution that someone at Blizzard much have found great: hey guys, let's kill two birds with one stone ; 1- give the barb something to deal with PIs 2- give them a strong "incentive" to use something beyond WW.
It would have been much better to make Increased Stamina and Increased Speed into one skill, and use the passive skill thus freed to turn a % of the barb damage into magical damage.
Anyway...

But look at the synergies affecting Berserk: +10% damage from Howl and *gasp* Shout.
Howl is already a synergy skill for Berserk! When you have zero defense, a crowd control skill like Howl or Grim Ward is the best complement for Berserk (Warcry is actually the best complement, but it requires great gear, or lots of potion gulping, or alternating skills because of the mana problem. Howl or Grim Ward don't pose such a mana issue). Is it Blizzard's way of strongly hinting at it for players who've been used to WW, WW, WW, WW, oh a PI, Berserk (slvl 1), WW, WW... ?
As for Shout... That one leaves me mouth agape. Pumping a skill which raises your defense to boost a skill which cancels your defense... What the hell ?

The Iron barb can't be "completed" now. It already required quite some investment: max concentrate, max shout, max iron skin. Then some support skill like natural resistance, find potions. Then max mastery for some offensive boost, and you were scrapping for points to invest in Battle orders for instance.
With the new "synergies" you just don't have enough points. Concentrate's damage can be boosted, but at the cost of skill points you don't have.
So the "Iron Barb" will have to make a choice in his build between offense and defense.
I don't know how monster's AR have been modified, but I suspect they're still high enough to warrant a heavy investment on defense. Which leaves the Iron Barb in the same state as the defiant: can't kill anything.
For me, the sense of "completion" was important at the end of character's career. Synergies take that away.

AS I've already stated on this forum earlier, the more I consider them, the more I consider they're a very bad idea, at least under that form.

An example of an old synergy that was great: Holy Shield boosting Smite damage. A smiter lives around his shield. It makes sense that both skills should complement and reinforce each another.

Cross-tree skills aren't necessarily a bad thing. Provided they are themed and limited.
An example of a cross-tree synergy which imo would be nice:
Let's say Resist Lightning gave resistance vs Lightning and some absorb.
Synergy with Holy Shock:
- When Holy Shock is on, get half the resistance bonus from Lightning Resistance.
- When Lightning Resistance is on, get the lightning splash damage from Holy Shock.
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#4
Quote:But your other complaints seem to be that you cant play/build a paladin the way you want to. It seems to me there are several viable and intersting builds.
Could you post them, then? I think WarBlade did a pretty good job summing up quite a few different styles of builds that have defined the Paladin since the beginning.
-TheDragoon
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#5
Quote:Coherent words most often used to describe this mess are often referred to as "expletives" or "profanity", but for the most part I've been vastly extending my vocabulary of inarticulate choking noises over this crap.

You're a poet, WB... an absolute poet.

*buys Warblade an ale*
Garnered Wisdom --

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#6
1 Hammerdins are decient once again.

2 Fanataical/conviction Avenger still works. (I say "still" because the build worked fine before with no flashing before).

3 Plain avenger is actually better because you have bonuses from resists as much as choose to spec.

4 Zealots are much better now. This should work with defiance or fanat or holy shock. And if you plan on a ITD septer you dont need more than a couple poinys in zeal.

4 Sacrifice works once again. Plus it can get a bonus from fanat.

5 FOH with the bonus from holy shock should be much improved(I dont know enough about caste speed to say if its actually good).


I think many people are saying builds are no good because they cany max every contributing/useful skill. I dont think that the intention by the dev(at least not till high lvls.)
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#7
Did you test those builds in Act 5 hell? If so, what items did you use?
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#8
But before any starts ripping on the whole class now, maybe some one should.

The only build both of us mentioned is the avenger and Warblade said it worked even though he tied it into the rant.
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#9
I havn't gotten very far, but somehow I've been killed three times in act 1 normal. Wow, is that embarassing. After I started using holy bolt on skeleton archers I did better, and that was actually kind of cool that it was useful and that I had to think of something to get past act 1. It occurred to me then that paladins were always borderline on the frontlines, but whats this going to be like? It always took me some time to get good enough armor and sheild to fight melee while with barbs I've never had to wait for the right equipment. Now I think paladins are going to have to be spellcasters. If act 1 normal is any indication I just can't imagine how a paladin can go toe to toe with anything later in the game. Maxing conc, vigor, and blessed hammer looks good. Vigor was always a good skill, but hard to justify putting a lot of points into it. I will use it more now if I boost to get better charge and/or bhmr, and so I'd say its more than just a mastery skill. Meditation and redemption look kinda worthless - if you can but blue pots why bother?? With what I hear about completely random monsters in act V and lower acts having crap xp it does seem like sanctuary for anti undead is even less useful. FOH, holy shock, and conviction looks like the other option to me. The pals hit pts and def are actually pretty good if they turn out to be solid spellcasters.

PS: Can anyone who's seen the later parts of the game tell me if there are anymore magic immunes? Thinking of going bhmr as it been several years since my old classic hammerer, and it looks like one of the few viable pals right now.
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#10
I can say that hammerdin is viable in a5 hell - even without many +skills. However, it does require a huge skillpoint investment (80 skillpoints just into blessed hammer, synergies and concentration), not to mention that you will probably want some into meditation, or redemption. In player 1 he was doing fine pretty much without any +skill items; and when I added about +10 skills all around, he was able to do ok even in players 8 (of course, with a lot of running and dodging - with improved monsters damage, his life suddenly seems so much smaller...) And there is an additional benefit now to this build - it seems blessed hammer is both magical and physical damage... Thus immunes are essentially not a problem (I have yet to meet something that's immune to both physical AND magic damage)
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#11
Things I agree with you about:

1) Holy shield needs more duration
2) Smite needs a synergy or a boost of some kind
3) Conversion needs a big boost
4) Resist xxx auras need a boost
5) Thorns needs a boost

Things I don't agree with you about:

1) Vengeance synergies are too point intensive. Vengeance is already hugely damaging, and it benefits a LOT from synergies. Thus you don't need to max more than one.
2) Resist xxx auras are completely useless. They were almost useless. Now that there's an additional incentive to investing in them they will see more use. At the very least in my next avenger build they will allow me to skimp on fire or lightning resist gear.
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#12
Ghostiger,Jul 7 2003, 03:24 AM Wrote:But your other complaints seem to be that you cant play/build a paladin the way you want to. It seems to me there are several viable and intersting builds.
What I want is to be able to play the wide array of Paladin builds that I used to. I don't mind that the rules change and force those characters to be a little different. What I do mind is having the rules change so that I pick a Combat Skill and watch a prescription medication of Synergies just to remain viable spontaneously map out for me.

What I can use to base a Paladin on at this point is one of the following:
- Sacrifice
- Vengeance
- Zeal Physical
- Zeal Elemental
- Blessed Hammer
- Fist of the Heavens

. . . Each with a fairly welled definec template in supporting skills. A few more synergies with some actual thought put into them has the potential to start inflating that number considerably.
Heed the Song of Battle and Unsheath the Blades of War
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#13
Arutha,Jul 7 2003, 01:28 AM Wrote:Cross-tree skills aren't necessarily a bad thing. Provided they are themed and limited.
An example of a cross-tree synergy which imo would be nice:
Let's say Resist Lightning gave resistance vs Lightning and some absorb.
Synergy with Holy Shock:
- When Holy Shock is on, get half the resistance bonus from Lightning Resistance.
- When Lightning Resistance is on, get the lightning splash damage from Holy Shock.
Agreed, and that is a nice idea. But since they(elemental resist auras) are defensive aura, it would make more sence to recieve bonuses such as '25% or so elemental damage RETURNED' per level from Holy fire, freeze, shock. Well at least that gives a reason to activate them over Salvation.
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#14
Arutha,Jul 7 2003, 03:28 AM Wrote:Cross-tree skills aren't necessarily a bad thing. Provided they are themed and limited.
That's the trap that Blizzard fell into with this patch. Themed and limited works perfectly fine within the tight confines of Poison in the Poison/Bone Tree or an Amazon's Lightning spear options. But stop thinking about Fire or Lightning themes for a moment and consider raw numbers multiplying with eachother in some cases, adding with eachother in other cases, single synergies multiplying eachother then multiplied with two other synergies in another tree and suddenly in the Paladin's case you realize you've opened a whole can of worms.

Note many of the characters don't boast many Synergies in the more 'Passive' (using "passive" very loosely) areas like Curses, Shadow Disaplines, Warcries mostly confined to durations, Amazon Passive/Magic Tree? This is done with good reason. In the Paladin's case, the potential out-of-control multipliers are the left side of the Offensive Aura Tree or Physical reinforcing in the Combat Skills. You need pick one of these two for the synergies to keep it all sane and avoid clocking up multipliers at all cost in the other.

They failed to do that and actually started turning the Defensive Tree into the auxiliary attack bonus tree instead. Then the hole they dug for themselves was being forced to limited the number of interacting skills to prevent some builds getting out of control and this is where the system begins to fall apart. You run into the conclusion that some 70 point combinations will wind up being quite powerful while many more others become dead weight.

No, I say ditch the overriding tendancy to maintain themes and stick to logic and point values.
Heed the Song of Battle and Unsheath the Blades of War
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#15
Swiss Mercenary,Jul 7 2003, 05:35 AM Wrote:Did you test those builds in Act 5 hell? If so, what items did you use?
Some of it was tested in A5 Hell. Some was in Act 2 Hell. Pretty much all was tested with >cLvl 70 characters. But if you read carefully I made no bones about the gear. It doesn't concern me too much about how how fast they can kill and I can make assumptions about the gear they will have to help them in 1.10.

What does concern me are things like I compared 40 points in two skills for Smite with 5 points in 2 skills for Zeal, with exceptional gear that is comparablly mediocre and they came out roughly equal on "players 1" and Zeal proved about three or four times better on "players 8". Balance is shot.

I'm comparing skills. I'm comparing character generation functionality, I'm comparing a Paladin's lifespan after full 75% defenses have been bypassed. And I'm saying this is just not fun.
Heed the Song of Battle and Unsheath the Blades of War
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#16
Ghostiger,Jul 7 2003, 05:40 AM Wrote:The only build both of us mentioned is the avenger and Warblade said it worked even though he tied it into the rant.
This is true. I managed to move around Act 5 Hell ok with an Avenger. He can dish out the hurt, even without the Synergies. Unfortunately his high blocking and 75% resists don't keep him alive that well. Most of that travel involved having a Cold Iron Wolf freezing solitary targets for the Avenger to hammer apart in safety. When the field included three enemies, it became a brutal struggle with the Paladin diving back to town constantly.

Watching half of that character's life disappearing to a single hit from a Rot Walker and knowing the only thing helping at that point was String of Ears was just mindnumbing.
Heed the Song of Battle and Unsheath the Blades of War
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#17
Supposedly this is still the Beta, so feel free to let them know on Blizzards web-site. I have yet to bother posting on their forums because it seems that most of the posters there are immature - I get this impression because of their vocabulary, grammar, and logistical reasoning (maybe this makes them easy to manipulate :D ). In any case, I happen to agree with you, Warblade, on 99% of your initial post.

The way synergies are set-up for the paladin class doesn’t make sense. For example, the Barbarian's synergy skills work with the two skills that go best together, as does the sorceresses and other classes, but the paladins? If anything, these should be the synergies:
  • Fanaticism, Zeal, and Charge
    <>
  • Conviction, Vengeance, and Fist of the Heavens
    <>
  • Concentration, Blessed Hammer, and Holy Freeze (great combo)
    <>
  • Sanctuary, Holy Bolt, and Redemption
    <>
  • Defiance, Smite, Holy Shield
    <>
  • Thorns, Conversion, Prayer (if prayer and conversion were greatly improved, this would be a great combo)
    <>
  • Might, Sacrifice, Vigor (overall solid build – good combo)
    <>
  • Cleansing, Meditation, Salvation (Bring in the new “Medic”)
    <>
  • Holy Fire, Holy Shock, Blessed Aim (Since the auras only “stick” for 2 seconds now, putting Holy Shock with conviction would be pointless, although this combo doesn’t really make much sense either, but more sense than it makes now, that’s for sure!)
    <>
  • Resist Fire, Resist Cold, Resist Lightening (just get rid of these skills and add in three new ones damnit!)<>
    [st]
"The true value of a human being is determined primarily by the measure and the sense in which he has attained liberation from the self." -Albert Einsetin
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#18
The paladin, like most other combat classes, has recieved #$%& in the way of synergies this patch (the only really useful synergy granted to combat builds this patch has been BO to BC, giving barbs 120 seconds of BC with 1 in BC and 20 in BO, giving barbs yet another reason to put NO MORE THAN ONE point in BC.

I doubt Pally life will be a problem, with all the new items coming out and all. There will likely be better smite shields to go along with the 450% ed weapons we've been seeing crop up.


I see four primary builds as viable:
Zeal: 6 frame base attack speed has always been special, and the +5% to dmg per level makes it a fine skill to use with a new weapon (for a 3 frame attack *drool*).

Vengence: The skill synergies are a JOKE. A point in another aura... to ADD 5% to my vengence damage? Vengence adds 18% per skill point and conviction adds a 5% multiplier by bringing down resistances. New items will make it easier to boost slvls far far past 28, to see the exponential potential of vengence/conviction come to fruition. While fanat flashing has been severely limited, new ias will probably take care of swing speeds. New 500 avg dmg weapons will help too, as well as the ready avilability of mana leech.

Hammers: Maybe. They have a slvl 28 breakpoint for more dmg, but I haven't run the numbers yet. Still, vigor&blessed aim are nice utility auras, and it would be fun to see them useful to your dmg.

FoH: Synergies and the slvl 28 breakpoint don't save this skill. It pales in comparison to sorc bolts, which DON'T have timers. It remains, at best, a variant or pvp build.
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#19
MEAT,Jul 7 2003, 11:06 AM Wrote:If anything, these should be the synergies:

  • <>
  • Fanaticism, Zeal, and Charge

    <>
  • Conviction, Vengeance, and Fist of the Heavens

    <>
    [st]
You fall back in the trap going down this road. Fanaticism already reinforces Zeal and Charge. With double reinforcing you hit the potential maximum with either attack somewhere around the level 50 mark and all further upgrades are item-only. That's the 1.09 Fist Paladin's problem. He reaches critical mass at the end of Nightmare and there's still the entirety of Hell to go so Nightmare becomes too easy and Hell becomes disproportionately hard.

Conviction? Same problem. Double reinforcing just doesn't work towards a balanced game. Try sticking to keeping Synergies restricted to Combat Skills only and it gets easier to retain sane upgrades. ;)
Heed the Song of Battle and Unsheath the Blades of War
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#20
... "themed" nor "limited".

Granted, you could argue that having anything close to "elemental" adding damage to Vengeance for instance is "themed".
But it's surely not "limited".

I just don't plain buy into the "invest into 2, 3 or 4 other skills and boost your skill's main effect". That kind of "synergy" is dumb.
The game is hard enough to balance, so making each skill having 40, 60, 80 or even 100 effective skill levels doesn't seem like that good an idea to me.

Or then forget about promoting "diversity".

Define a few well thought out "viable" builds for each class, and have the few skills making up that build mutually reinforce one another.
That way, each char gradually gains in offensive power as he progresses along the game.

That's clearly not the case.

So when I say "themed" and "limited", I mean that each skill shouldn't benefit from more than one other skill, and that the benefits should be in keeping with the original's skill theme.
For instance, defensive auras are supposed to be defensive, so any synergy with combat skills or offensive auras should be defensive.

Requiring players to spend more than 20 points in any skill to get the full main effect of that skill is wrong imo.

Smite's main effect is knockback and stun: incapacitating a foe.
If you want damage to boot, you can invest in Holy Shield: that's a good synergy.

Fist of Heaven's is about Lightning Damage.
If you want powerful Holy Bolts shooting from it, you can invest in Holy Bolt. Another good synergy.

The barb's "Stun" skill is about stunning an opponent.
Warcry now increases the stun length. Bad synergy. It's affecting the main effect. And frankly if a barb wants to stun foes, he's going to choose either warcry or stun, but he won't use both.
Masteries increase AR and Damage. Good synergy: damaging an opponent is the skill's secondary effect.
Bash now increases Stun's damage: bad synergy. 1- There's already one skill doing that, so the synergy isn't "limited" in scope. 2- Bash and Stun don't combine well. Once you've stunned an opponent, the last thing you want is send him away from you. He's helpless before you, time to wack him into pieces.

I think you'r getting the picture. :)
IMO, synergies should only apply to a skill's secondary effects so that no one should have to invest more than 20 points to get the full benefit from the skill's main effect.
They also should be "themed" so that if you decide to take advantage of them, the sole benefit of your secondary skills won't be just to boost your main skill. Holy Shield is a nice defensive skill for a Smiter. But what good is Blessed Aim for a hammerdin ??
And last, they should be limited in scope so that no one should have to max a zillion skills to get the most out of their main skill.
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