Disgusted with Paladins 1.10

[Arutha]

What kind of help is "Shout" to a Berserker ?
What kind of help is Leap to a Leap Attcker ?
What kind of help is Bash to a Stunner ?

And so on...

Sorry, but with a few exceptions (Howl for Berserk for instance), I don't find that barb synergies are exceptionnally well laid-out. :huh:

[Obi2Kenobi]

I agree 116% with you there, Arutha. :)

[IlleglWpns]

Vengence: The skill synergies are a JOKE. A point in another aura... to ADD 5% to my vengence damage? Vengence adds 18% per skill point and conviction adds a 5% multiplier by bringing down resistances. New items will make it easier to boost slvls far far past 28, to see the exponential potential of vengence/conviction come to fruition. While fanat flashing has been severely limited, new ias will probably take care of swing speeds. New 500 avg dmg weapons will help too, as well as the ready avilability of mana leech.

That 5% added to vengeance is MULTIPLIED BY THREE. The 5% is added per element, much like the base vengeance numbers are per element. You can complain about the relative uselessness of the resist xxx auras but in terms of magnitude the vengeance synergies are fine.

The real problem with the paladin is not damage. With 1.10 he has it in spades. The problem is survivability. Making the resist auras raise maximum resists and increasing the duration of holy shield would go a long way towards solving this problem.

[NuurAbSaal]

Why are YOU not working on the patch? WHY?
Cause life ain't fair...

:) :(

NuurAbSaal

[Taem]

If anything, these should be the synergies:

• 
  <>
  
• Fanaticism, Zeal, and Charge
  
  <>
  
• Conviction, Vengeance, and Fist of the Heavens
  
  <>
  [st]

You fall back in the fact going down this road. Fanaticism already reinforces Zeal and Charge. With double reinforcing you hit the potential maximum with either attack somewhere around the level 50 mark and all further upgrades are item-only. That's the 1.09 Fist Paladin's he problem. He reaches critical mass at the end of Nightmare and there's still the entirety of Hell to go so Nightmare becomes too easy and Hell becomes disproportionately hard.

Conviction? Same problem. Double reinforcing just doesn't work towards a balanced game. Try sticking to keeping Synergies restricted to Combat Skills only and it gets easier to retain sane upgrades. ;)

I hear what your saying warblade, but these are the most logical associations, by far. Any other associations just don't make any sense! Maybe instead of the synergy adding damage, it can add something else to not make it overpowered such as:

Fanaticism, Zeal, and Charge = Enhanced passive resistances (elemental, magic, OR physical - 1% per 5 cumulative points in all associated skills)

I don't exactly mean to burst your bubble here either, but the whole overpowering thing is already being done:

Barbarian:
Battle Order + Battle Command + Shout
War Cry + Battle Cry
Stun + War Cry (nice combo)
Berserk + Howl + Shout (what? Overpowered? Nah!)
Frenzy + Taunt

Druid:
Hurricane + Cyclone Armor
Any elemental skill + any other elemental skill (great for skills with casting delay switch over to next best one in between - like the sorceress does now!)
Fire Claws + any fire elemental skill (or secondary skill at least)

Amazon:
Immolation Arrow + Exploding Arrow (in between casting delay, your a slaying maniac!)
Valkeryie + almost all over passives (duh!)
I don’t know enough about the casting delays and Javelin skills at this time

Need I go on? Seriously, the "overbalancing" is already being done! The bugs... there’s more now than ever. I don't EVER expect to see a working 1.1 anytime soon, and when it does come out, if its anything like this beta, I will be extremely disappointed at the obvious lack of thought blizzard put forth into it!

[GenericKen]

That 5% added to vengeance is MULTIPLIED BY THREE.&nbsp; The 5% is added per element, much like the base vengeance numbers are per element.&nbsp; You can complain about the relative uselessness of the resist xxx auras but in terms of magnitude the vengeance synergies are fine.

The real problem with the paladin is not damage.&nbsp; With 1.10 he has it in spades.&nbsp; The problem is survivability.&nbsp; Making the resist auras raise maximum resists and increasing the duration of holy shield would go a long way towards solving this problem.

You sure about that?


And on another note, does anybody else find it amusing all these barbs are coming in here confused as to HOW shout could POSSIBLY help bezerk?

Have these people never heard of GROUPING? =O) I mean, they gave blessed aim synergies to hammer for a reason... so that combat classes would love that hammerdin. =O)

[WarBlade]

What kind of help is "Shout" to a Berserker ?
What kind of help is Leap to a Leap Attcker ?
What kind of help is Bash to a Stunner ?

And so on...

Sorry, but with a few exceptions (Howl for Berserk for instance), I don't find that barb synergies are exceptionnally well laid-out.&nbsp; &nbsp; :huh:

I hear you on the "Shout" thing. That one's completely mindboggling and looks like half the Paladin Synergy setup.

The other two though are pretty consistent with what the Synergy idea is about: Offering a system to continue a smooth skill enhancement that follows a character deep into Hell level.

In my opinion "well laid out" can only mean "well laid out in terms of structurally on the trees" and not necessarily "aesthetically linked in the skill effects". Most of the Barbarian Combat Skills fit this bill in that they look to the preceeding pre-requisite in that tree for support. Shout for Berserk strikes me as silly and so too is the Warcry supporting Frenzy, before even considering Shout and Berserk are mutually exclusive.

[IlleglWpns]

You sure about that?

Yes. That's how it works in the mpq and a screenshot from the 1.10 forum confirms it.

[pbrain]

What kind of help is "Shout" to a Berserker ?
What kind of help is Leap to a Leap Attcker ?
What kind of help is Bash to a Stunner ?

And so on...

Sorry, but with a few exceptions (Howl for Berserk for instance), I don't find that barb synergies are exceptionnally well laid-out.&nbsp; &nbsp; :huh:

Shout adding a bonus to berserk won't help a berserker, true, but I don't think it's useless. Think of the high defence barb with 1 point in berserk for PI's and 20 points in shout. Nice little bonus then I'd say. Doesn't make sense the way related skills boosting each other makes sense, but it should be usefull for the defence minded.

I don't know what they were thinking with the "3 war cries for the price of 1" that they have going on with BO/Shout/BC. I guess it's to encourage more diverse skill use and to make up for inflated difficulty.

[Arutha]

And on another note, does anybody else find it amusing all these barbs are coming in here confused as to HOW shout could POSSIBLY help bezerk?
Have these people never heard of GROUPING? =O) I mean, they gave blessed aim synergies to hammer for a reason... so that combat classes would love that hammerdin. =O)

Gimme a break. ;)

With that kind of reasonning, you could justify anything.
Why not make Meditation increase Sacrifice damage? Ok, you have zero use for mana, but who knows, there might be a sorc or a necro nearby who'd love you for turning meditation on...

[Arutha]

Shout adding a bonus to berserk won't help a berserker, true, but I don't think it's useless. Think of the high defence barb with 1 point in berserk for PI's and 20 points in shout. Nice little bonus then I'd say. Doesn't make sense the way related skills boosting each other makes sense, but it should be usefull for the defence minded.

... don't even think of getting me started on one-point skill wonders! ;)

Berserk should not convert 100% of your physical damage into magical damage.
It should be 5% / slvl for instance.

1 point wonders are EVIL.

[TheDragoon]

Druid:
Hurricane + Cyclone Armor
Any elemental skill + any other elemental skill (great for skills with casting delay switch over to next best one in between - like the sorceress does now!)
Fire Claws + any fire elemental skill (or secondary skill at least)

Are you saying this is overpowered? Have you tried it? The fire side of the tree seems extremely underpowered right now (I'll try some more stuff later and get back with a complete review of that stuff) and the Fire Claw synergies are a joke. I mean, honestly, the only skills it can gain power from are skills that CANNOT BE USED IN WEREFORM. Otherwise, I think you just have the regular old Fire Claws from 1.09 which I was never really impressed with from the start. :)

As for the "any elemental skill + any other elemental skill" the whole fire side of the tree barely seems to do enough damage on its own and so if you invest in a spammable spell for between casts of the timered ones, then you have to use Tornado/Twister (all of the fire skills are on timers) at which point the fire skills lose power and the Tornado/Twister skills have lost power as compared to a Hurricane/Tornado/Twister build.

Now, having just tried out a level 80 Hurricane/Tornado/Twister build with the best gear you'll be finding in 1.10 (gave me around level 40 Elemental Skills with 75 for all resistances and 65% physical damage reduction) I STILL had a hard time in Hell, but it was POSSIBLE, however slowly. I'd say, from that experiement, that the cold/wind side of the Elemental Tree is about right. However, the Fire side just doesn't cut it. :(

Really, I'd suggest actually trying out the skills before you label them overpowered. :)

[Taem]

Really, I'd suggest actually trying out the skills before you label them overpowered.&nbsp; :)

Agreed. I was, however, just trying to emphasize a point: For most classes, the benefits seem to make sense and follow some sort of methodology or association. The “synergy” bonuses enhance the abilities of similar skills. By definition, synergism means, “interaction of discrete agencies such that the total effect is greater than the sum of the individual effects.”

In the paladin build, all I see is wreck less synergy bonuses because the designers ran out of ideas. Warblade made a good point and, stop me if I'm wrong, but combat abilities working together makes perfect synergy sense, but what the heck does resistance have to do with damage in regards to Holy Fires synergy bonus from Resist Fire? Sure they have the same name, but they don't even do the same thing. How does their sum make the other better? I can't use both auras at the same time, so how is my resistance to fire any better with holy fire on?

The paladin is a tricky build because you can really only use one aura at a time whereas all the other classes can use multiple skills simultaneously, not to mention their passives. I honestly feel my suggestion for the paladin synergy set-up and bonuses is a pretty cleaver idea. As Warblade pointed out, the damage would go through the roof if you just enhanced the damage aspect, so instead add a little resistance to elements or take a good look at what the build does. A Fanatic Zealot will rush headlong into combat and engage a mid-sized group. A 1% Damage-Reduction per 5 points in the total sum of all the synergistic skills makes perfect sense to me, and a good incentive to make that build, if not others using a combination of the skills. The synergy should really enhance possible builds, not stifle your ability to make a workable character because your investing 20 points into a worthless skill.

[lemekim]

As for the "any elemental skill + any other elemental skill" the whole fire side of the tree barely seems to do enough damage on its own and so if you invest in a spammable spell for between casts of the timered ones, then you have to use Tornado/Twister (all of the fire skills are on timers) at which point the fire skills lose power and the Tornado/Twister skills have lost power as compared to a Hurricane/Tornado/Twister build. 

I finally found out what spammable skill would be great to use with the fire tree skills without resorting to tornado/twister. :P You have to literally keep spamming wolves to keep monsters in place, while the skill of your choice (fissure in mine) does damage, especially versus large monster groups, where the wolves die before they are even fully cast.

About the fire skills in general - I found out that with certain items it is possible to kill decently with fire skills even with players 8 in hell. You just have to give him a lot of %fire damage increase and -enemy fire resists items (namely some of those unique jewels). Thus I totally had about +60% fire damage (which applies to your total skill damage) and -65% to enemy resistance (which again, helps the overall damage by lowering monsters resists); which gave me at least 2.5 times my original damage, and I was able to kill decently in the said players 8. Of course, like I mentioned before, I had to spam wolves to keep monsters away from me and in the same spot, and any fire immunes sent me on the run (a boss with fire immunity regenerated HPs faster then my lvl 38 volcano could damage it), but it was fun having to pay attention to a battle and stay on your toes, and spamming, spamming, spamming wolves :)

[jondifool]

I have an impression here that we actual are not looking in deepth here on whats going on, and are very fast on shouting out how it should be! which builds should be supported or not! Had we lost the idea off what synergies should be? IMHO it should be Providing alternative to exsisting builds, not be the new uber builds!

Take the charger as an exsample.
Its quite a statement that the synergies should be fanatism, zeal and charge. This is going to be a good combo anyway, so why add synergies there! Add a PI solution and you are set!

The synergies for charges are Vigor and Might!

looks very reasonble for me, why?
vigor basicly because increased move already increase damage over time for a charger!
Might because charge is the mellee attack needing fanatism or concentrations other bonus the least. (no need for increased attack speed, and when charging no need for an uninterutble attack). And so might could be the damage aura off choice for ONE mellee class pally (there by the why is not picking the might merc anyway!). I am actual not shure that the way the bonus are implemented does benefit the charger enough to go for might , but I am sure its the intention! And as such it looks like a good idea for me!

And none off these synergies is going to help the pally alot with his needed secondary attack.

[Winter]

As for Shout... That one leaves me mouth agape. Pumping a skill which raises your defense to boost a skill which cancels your defense...&nbsp; What the hell ?

Actually, as pbrain mentioned, that's a genius move on Blizzard's part- at least, as far as it goes. I'm not sure i agree with the underlying assumptions, but it's really clever. The reason Shout gives a bonus to Berserk is that if you build a Shout/IS/Conc barb you obviously don't want to spend a whole lot of points in Berserk to deal with PIs- but now, presto! <AOL voice>You've got 'Zerk!</AOL voice>

I'm not sure if i agree with giving defense barbs a beefy chunk of Berserk, but it works.

Anyway, the following is a build i'm testing out:

Max Shout, Battle Orders, Concentrate, then put the rest of the points into Iron Skin, go up the Grim ward tree, nab Battle Commands, put a point into 'Zerk and only go for the middle of the combat tree, throw the rest into a mastery.

I expect it'll work very well.

Overall, i'm glad this is the beta. The synergies are either much too powerful (Fireball, Blizzard, the Warcry trio with Conc, etc) or too weak/useless (Chain Lightning, the Prayer combo (useful, but really weak), and so on). Hopefully Blizzard will have a chance to re-balance the Synergies. Hopefully they won't be averse to removing some/changing others/adding new ones. We'll see, though.

[Arutha]

I'll refer you to my answer to pbrain ;)

... don't even think of getting me started on one-point skill wonders!
Berserk should not convert 100% of your physical damage into magical damage.
It should be 5% / slvl for instance.
1 point wonders are EVIL.

I hope that concentrate barbs will be viable. I can see the "of vileness" mod being crucial to them.

Currently testing my old Ironman build (not defense-based barb, but Ironman set of rules): Howl, Berserk, Find pots, Taunt, Natural Resistance. BO when starting Hell if I can spare the points.
I have used that build (or variants of it, like Grim Ward instead of Howl, and Stun / Berserk instead of Berserk) with success in the past whenever playing untwinked and with tough rules.

[Winter]

I'll refer you to my answer to pbrain ;)

Well first off, like i said, i'm not sure i agree with Blizzard's "vision" of the Barbarian through his synergies- but there's a very clear intent. Personally, i don't mind one-point-wonders. I like Salvation. I wish it were more useful with more points involved (that is: i want a reason to put more than one point in it) but it serves a useful purpose. I am attracted to the idea of a concentrate Barb being able to deal with PIs effectively without having to divert significant points from your main strategy. I just wish all the other barb builds (frenzy, zerk, singer, WW, etc) had something similar.

I hope that concentrate barbs will be viable. I can see the "of vileness" mod being crucial to them.

My plan is to acquire a couple seconds worth of poison damage in charms. Of course, if good gear with the Vileness mod drops into my lap i'll certainly use it.

[Wapptor]

I've played almost only paladins for three years now. I've tried quite a few things in 1.10 and didn't have any serious problems. I can explain more later when I have more time. I don't know if you've played paladins before, but they never were power killers but more balanced characters with a variety of attacks and defensive skills. I don't think blizzard has done anything that really kills them overall. But could just be me heh. Like I said I can give more details, right now I must run out the door.

*runs out the door*

-Wapptor

[Ignatz]

Yeah, if AR really meant something. As is, Blessed aim is entirely useless as a skill except on mercs. Cause if you're built to need the skill, you're losing your aura slot to something that's replaced by a good ring or charm or two. And if you're not, then you're self sufficient, and going from 84 to 86% to hit isn't going to make a darn difference to anybody.

The way I see it, Paladins suffer from poor skill design in general. The auras are a good idea that are permanently crippled by their mutually exclusive nature. Then, defensive auras are twice as bad since "killing games" are based on offense, not defense. You're just flat out rewarded more by investing in offense than defense. Making really, really poor skills, like the resistance auras into passive masteries is as big a cop out as I can think of in the patch.

I've seen at least a half dozen suggestions for making the resist auras useful and I think it's pure unwillingness to reprogram things significantly that keeps them from being implemented. For instance, anybody argue that any of these wouldn't be an improvement?:

- Make resist auras add absorb % (and to those fearing broken levels of absorb, think about the limitations of having a single elem absorb type taking up your aura slot)
- Make resist auras lower the resistance of monsters, making for a fun group skill with other casters that would still be variantish, but at least usable
- Make them add to max resists. Simple.
- Make them entirely passive. Seperate elemental passives would be fun, since you'd be able to perfect-fit your resists with your gear
- Make them multiply elem damage...such that they'd be good complements to vengeance, holy fire/shock/freeze, a good elem weapon, etc as well as adding resists...essentially turning your pally into a Elemental specialist in a particular type of elem damage. Sort of a thematic approach that boosts both defense and offense.
- etc
- etc
- etc