Remove the Party Experience Bonus!

[Rataxes]

It occured to me just today that what v1.10 in essence is trying to do, is to return D2 to the gaming climate it had back in the "golden age", Pre-LoD that is. The increased difficulty, the severely decreased experience gains and monster levels, the elimination of boss farming for items, rares being back on top as the most potentially powerful item type, gambling being relevant once more - All these are changes meant to bring D2 back to it's core. I guess Blizzard finally realized that things were better before, as anyone who has been with D2 since day one realized a week after LoD was released.

Yet there is one huge thing missing, the one thing that more than anything else shaped the climate of Pre-LoD PvM Multiplayer - The penalties of partying. Back when being in a 8 player party meant 1/8 of the Experience, people as a rule did not play in parties except for when questing, unless they had a good reason, such as being able to form very efficient small parties, or playing with friends.

This was, in my opinion, a very good thing, and the sole cause of many of the things I liked about D2C. It caused a very fierce competition between the good experience areas in Hell. Hostiling people to scare them away from your "territory" was a common practice. It was King of the Hill all the way. This more than anything made sure that weak characters - either by skill or equipment, never survived for long in Hell, as it should be of course. It made gaining experience tougher, since the competition was so tough, and thus made a high level more of an achievement. It also forced people to be able to take care of themselves. PvP players had to make sure they could still do PvM, unlike some current PvP builds that at lvl 20 can PK a Lvl 80 PvM'er, but at the same time cannot handle a pack of Quill Rats. It forced people to play themselves, rather than being rushed through the game and then leeching in the corner of a Cow level game till they hit lvl 99 and still are as clueless as ever.

Yes it was a very harsh climate, yes it was unforgiving, yes it did force newbies to either learn to play or perish quickly, but it's exactly the lack of these things that have made D2, hopefully just until now, the completely unchallenging and uninteresting bore that it is, and these are the exact things needed to breathe new life into the game.

And it wouldn't completely destroy party play. people would still always prefer to party up when they're questing, people would still always party up with their friends, no matter if they lost some experience because of it, and LoD and this new patch have brought up so many more interesting and efficient party combinations than there were Pre-LoD, that well-balanced leveling parties would not only be more common, but also larger.

I know this most likely will not happen, there would be too much of an uproar from the lazy newbies who prefer to not have to do anything themselves and really would be as helpless as infants if they suddenly were to be stripped of their precious no-brainer-leecher-accepting parties, but one can always dream, eh?

[Dyntheos]

I hated 3 minute act4 clears in D2C when a game would start and ech character who entered got 2 areas as thier own, and the guy who got the CS ended the game with the diablo death timer.

Each game lasted minutes and then they would hang around for ages with others joining them to play in act3 and below because the lance barbs cleared hell (all of hell act 4) in a matter of minutes.

No one partied at all at high levels, and level 80's BEGGED to be able to kill diablo so they could get some XP.

imo this would kill party play. As it was when the XP bonus kicked in for parties alot more people cooperated and it was hella more fun, with others than solo.

I do find it too much of a generalization to slap the newbie tag on those that can't solo hell 8 player, there are people out there that enjoy party play (like myself) and the xp bonus is an insentive for others to hit P on thier keyboard when a game is joined.

[Rataxes]

D2C exping games lasted a lot longer than current Blood- and Cow-run games, those are just about always finished before the 5 minute mark. In D2C, I could often join a Hell exping game and have a solid 15 minutes in the Flayer Jungle before people started to leave.

imo this would kill party play. As it was when the XP bonus kicked in for parties alot more people cooperated and it was hella more fun, with others than solo

Co-operated? Most Bnet parties consist of 6 leechers and 2 killers, both who slay monsters on the opposite ends of the map to not "disturb" one another. Yes there were parties where the members truly co-operated with each-other in an effort to maximize killing speed, or simply have fun with their friends, but those would not disappear even without the Party bonus, since players in those parties already benefit from their co-operation, they don't need the extra XP bonus, the few exp parties that existed in D2C sure didn't.

I do find it too much of a generalization to slap the newbie tag on those that can't solo hell 8 player, there are people out there that enjoy party play (like myself) and the xp bonus is an insentive for others to hit P on thier keyboard when a game is joined.

Regardless what they're called, characters who are too weak to stand on their own, who cannot contribute to a party, who cannot even kill a Hell monster when the opportunity arrives, simply don't belong in Hell. With v1.10, Blizzard have already taken many steps to show that this is their stance as well, removing the party bonus would more than anything make this a reality though.

The current party system simply makes it way too easy for newbies, lazy people and others who want high levels and good items but will not sacrifice time or effort for it, to get a free ride. Why? Because people simply don't care if they have a string of lvl 5 leechers on their tail anymore, their XP isn't affected by it, why should they care? There must be a penalty for creating parties, so that when people do party up, they are forced to carefully consider whether the benefits outbalance the penalty. There would be no more no-brainer parties consisting of one competent Hell character, partied with an army of no-good leechers because he thought partying them would put and end to their constant whining. No more clueless lvl 80 characters with 91 skill points saved up, no PvP builds that are utterly useless in PvM would surface.

[AtomicKitKat]

PASSWORDED GAMES.

[Rataxes]

Why bother to respond when you have nothing of value to say?

[AtomicKitKat]

It's as simple as that. If you despise leeches, make a simple passworded game "test/test", and leave the morons behind. Don't make the rest of us suffer just because you're too lazy to hit "tab" and type in a second word.

I enjoy partying with my brother at home, even if one of our coms is a lot laggier than the other. The exp is a nice bonus, but it at least helps us to get enough levels to deal with the Act Bosses. If you don't want to see level 10s in Act 5 Hell Cow games, then leave those games alone, make your own cow game, and play to your hearts' content.

[phooker51]

I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying regarding party experience and efficient parties. I too, really liked the old D2C model, although after a while being assigned to a certain area got old. Still, since we have A5 now, there should be enough room to accomodate everyone, as long as 1 area is not incredibly exploitable. I'd take that any day over 2 sorcs and a zon having a gaggle of leechers parked at the red portal, or following a screen behind pawing through what the chars who kill leave behind. Instead of raising the difficulty (aka making it harder on the capable players), there should be a focus on getting rid of the leechers. This 2 screen radius thing doesn't help too much. 2 capable characters often drift more than a screen apart, and leechers can still stay a safe distance behind the real players. Everyone should have to pull their weight.

That being said, if this were ever to be instated, there would need to be some actual attempt at game balance, such as sorcs and zons losing their ability to clear out 20 enemies in the time it takes other classes to kill 2-3, and the necro actually having some sort of offensive capability besides CE (good luck killing hell diablo with a necro).

[AtomicKitKat]

Actually, there's a far easier way to deal with this. If you're more than 5-10 levels behind the highest level character, you get only 50% of the exp. Anything beyond 10 levels below and you get 1 exp per kill. That automatically puts the little punkass leeches in their place.

[phooker51]

I enjoy partying with my brother at home, even if one of our coms is a lot laggier than the other. The exp is a nice bonus, but it at least helps us to get enough levels to deal with the Act Bosses. If you don't want to see level 10s in Act 5 Hell Cow games, then leave those games alone, make your own cow game, and play to your hearts' content.

And how would no party bonus impact your ability to do quests and act bosses? The entire point is to party so you are more powerful and efficient, not to have a level 80 doing the work for lvl 20s. Why should the players actually PLAYING have to yield to the people who are very obviously not playing the game the way Blizzard intended?

[ManaCraft]

And that's why the experience bonus for partying is needed. To give people an incentive that they wouldn't otherwise have.

The difficulty of the game itself is what should force people to party. Even the smaller quests like the den of evil, blood raven and the countess should, in hell, be difficult enough to give players a good amount of incentive to co-operate. And the big quests - such as act end bosses, the council and the ancients - should downright require people to party up, or else have a heck of a difficult time taking on such quests by themselves.

And let's get some level restrictions on difficulties, similar to those in D1, to help prevent all that leeching.

Yeah, wishful thinking, I know...


ManaCraft

[phooker51]

Actually, there's a far easier way to deal with this. If you're more than 5-10 levels behind the highest level character, you get only 50% of the exp. Anything beyond 10 levels below and you get 1 exp per kill. That automatically puts the little punkass leeches in their place.

That wouldn't work either. What happens if a char is level 95, but I am clearly pulling my weight at 85-90? It's a delicate problem with no easy solution. The one I imagine, though it has a ton of problems on its own, is to have experience sharing work like the HC loot toggle. Theortically, you could really create efficient parties and groups of cooperative people would be able to shut the door on leechers.

[phooker51]

I don't really care about the partying bonus as long as there is a way to prevent the losers from leeching.

Maybe it's my experience as an HC player, but I've always found it beneficial to party for the big quests, as well as alot of the levelling. Having backup to bail you out if you get in hot water, or at worst, to loot your corpse when you die, is pretty strong incentive to work with people (friends and people i trust). Thats the distinction I make - I don't like being forced to party with joe leecher and joe item-grabber in order to get ANYWHERE in the game. I think partying should be encouraged, but never 100% forced.

[Rataxes]

This is post is not about whether I despise leeches or not. It's about the fact that Blizzard is trying to move back to the old D2C gaming climate, the climate that was part of what most D2 veterans remember as the golden age. When I talk about gaming climate I'm talking about the climate that the average Battle.net player is in, meaning public games, often playing with strangers. This is where I have always been and always have belonged, even if I do despise what it has become in v1.09 and so sincerely hope that it will be turned inside-out when v1.10 is released. I want to feel that there are other people playing with me, that I am a part of, and very much integrated into the world that is D2 Bnet Closed. So suggestions about playing on my own in passworded games are lost on me, it's simply not the way I want to play the game.

Most changes in v1.10 were made with the intent of changing the gaming climate, to bring back that air of necessity, risk and danger, and the fierce competition that was present in D2C, that you had to struggle, not only with the game, but with those you compete with, if you wanted to succeed. The only way that last part is ever going to come back, which I know many more than myself are hoping for, is if the party system is changed, preferably back to how it was pre-LoD.

[ManaCraft]

Well, I don't want it 100% enforced on you, but I do want the game to be more difficult than it currently is.

However, I'm afraid there's no way to completely get rid of item grabbers and leechers. Although Blizzard could certainly try harder.


ManaCraft

[Rataxes]

I agree that there would be no need to make the game itself as difficult (though a little improvement was needed over v1.09), if the aspect of having to compete with other players was reinstated.

That being said, if this were ever to be instated, there would need to be some actual attempt at game balance, such as sorcs and zons losing their ability to clear out 20 enemies in the time it takes other classes to kill 2-3, and the necro actually having some sort of offensive capability besides CE (good luck killing hell diablo with a necro).

Well, even in CD2, people who had problems with certain quests (remember how Necros used to be in the Maggot Lair and Arcane sanctuary before they could walk through their minions?), could often turn to other people for help, as questing in big parties was at the very least as common then as it is now.

[Rataxes]

Maybe it's my experience as an HC player, but I've always found it beneficial to party for the big quests, as well as alot of the levelling. Having backup to bail you out if you get in hot water, or at worst, to loot your corpse when you die, is pretty strong incentive to work with people (friends and people i trust). Thats the distinction I make - I don't like being forced to party with joe leecher and joe item-grabber in order to get ANYWHERE in the game. I think partying should be encouraged, but never 100% forced.

I think that partying should be encouraged by nothing but the necessity to do it. As you say, partying with a couple of friends was a good idea in HC for the reasons you mentioned.

Right now, people party "just for the hell of it", it doesn't matter either way if the party isn't beneficial, efficient, or necessary. But in D2C, people only partied when they had a good reason to, there were no incentives or benefits other than what you and your team could create yourselves. That's what I want back - having actual reasons to party, and not to party, not a climate where partying is such a no-brainer that nobody cares about it.

[AtomicKitKat]

PW games doesn't mean you have to play on your own. I'm sure you have at least 1 or 2 real friends willing to party with you?

Frankly speaking, the party bonus isn't that great. I get maybe at most 2 levels more clearing the whole of Act 1 partied all the way through, contrasted to soloing in 1 player.

I personally think having the "within 2 screens of the kill" rule is a little stupid, since my brother and I usually clear separate branches of each place at a time(cases in point, Maggot Lair, the various Act 5 tunnels, the Halls of Anguish/Pain), which puts us about 4-6 screens apart at times. Definitely, a level cap would be the easiest way. How about we set it such that you cannot be less than 85% of the highest level person to get full exp? So a level 85 and above can party with a level 99 for full exp, and level 9s will have to party with level 11/12 at most, etc.

[phooker51]

Well, even in CD2, people who had problems with certain quests (remember how Necros used to be in the Maggot Lair and Arcane sanctuary before they could walk through their minions?), could often turn to other people for help, as questing in big parties was at the very least as common then as it is now.

Yes, but it goes far beyond certain quests. Golems are all but useless, IM is useless, poison is pretty weak without massive skill point investment, and bone spear and spirit aren't much better. The only way to get some corpses for minions or CE is relying on a merc.

[Rataxes]

No, none of my friends play D2. Pretty much all of my D2-only friends left a month after LoD was released, and I've been on and off D2 too frequently to have had a chance to make any new friends on Bnet. I also switched realm from Europe to USEast a few months ago. Besides, even if you play PW games with a "few" of your friends, it is still not the same thing as when you're involved in D2 Closed, it's more like you're part of a world with hundreds of thousands of other players then, and you have a chance to stick out if you just work hard enough. Well, maybe you will in v1.10, no chance of any such thing happening in v1.09.

the party bonus isn't that great. I get maybe at most 2 levels more clearing the whole of Act 1 partied all the way through, contrasted to soloing in 1 player.

It's great enough that a person will get about the same amount of XP per monster in an 8 player game whether he's managing on his own or playing in a party with seven leeches. The bonus being so great, or just simply being there at all, more or less on it's own makes it a complete no-brainer to party up. I'd like to see people making an effort of their own to make sure their party is worthwhile, or not party at all. This will never happen as long as there's an ultimate and automatic incentive such as the XP bonus in place.

Also note that removing the party bonus, if nothing else, is the ultimate leeching deterrent. Rushing might've been present to a certain degree in Pre-LoD D2, though very rarely seen in the extreme shape it has taken today, but I'd like to see anyone try to XP-leech if the conditions were changed back to how they were before. No other solution comes close if you're only looking for a way to destroy leeching (note, I'm not).

[Leah_heartsword]

PvP players had to make sure they could still do PvM, unlike some current PvP builds that at lvl 20 can PK a Lvl 80 PvM'er, but at the same time cannot handle a pack of Quill Rats.

I know what you mean. I had a clvl 32 assassin that killed a clvl 87 palidian a year ago. i wasn't even a PKer. I build my chars all around so if i do get attacked by a PKer i can defend my self and continue on my PvMing.