03-24-2005, 08:46 PM
Once again I'm not sure exactly where I should reply to this so here will work.
I apologize ahead of time as I imagine this post is going to be long. After thinking about sheep/shack macros and seeing people's comments here I think I am going to add my own two cents. The short version is that I believe that these macros are an attempt at a crutch to cover sub-par play and that any fully competent group shouldn't have much need for them. Given that caveat the macros may actually be useful when you are partying with people who are not as reliable (pubbies tend to get this rep) and that is what my post on shackling made mention of.
I'm going to run through some of the pros can cons I have seen mentioned about the macros and add my comments here. If anyone sees anything I miss please tell me so that I can consider them.
First of all, some classes should never have to worry about popping a sheep. These include rogues, hunters, cat-form druids and any paladin or off tank who is providing dps (shamans?). These people should all be following some sort of assist pattern and the person who is main assist simply has to pick targets off of the tank's aggro list. As long as this main assist is competent and everyone is assiting him none of these characters should ever pop a sheep (or shackle; I'm going to consider them to be synonomous for the purposes of this discussion as they work virtually identically).
Warlocks would also fit in that previous list but for the fact that they have DoTs (as Xanthix mentioned). Priests also have SW:P that they like to toss around. This should honestly never be an issue. I learned very quickly as a priest that indiscriminately throwing SW:P around with mages in the party was an extremely foolish tactic. Any PC with a DoT attack should know how many mages are in the party. Until there are an equal number of sheeps to mages (aka 2 mages-> 2 sheep) do not cast any DoTs. Once you know who all of the sheep are feel free to open up on appropriate targets. For the most part these DoTs should be following the assist pattern of all of the dps classes anyway. If the fact that you have to wait 2 seconds extra to cast a DoT is the difference between winning and losing a battle than you have other issues.
Mages also should be following the same assist pattern but they are in the position of being the sheeper. Once they have successfully polyed a target they should fall in line with dropping other targets. The important thing here though is for the mage to communicate ahead of time how they are going to sheep. That means telling your party/raid what your sheep pattern will be on a pull and how you will handle adds. Once this is coordinated everyone should know this and react accordingly. This was mentioned earlier but a "sheep left" or known pre-pull pattern can easily be established and followed.
For sheeping adds it is imperative for the mage to try to sheep adds ASAP before they get into range of the tank or any aoe. If they don't then the sheep is going to be popped a solid majority of the time regardless of whether a macro is used. If the sheep is in range of aoe taunts or whirwind or the like the tank is going to have to adjust and move his position which might be a pain to do. Also note that this should only be an issue if the tank already has 2 or more targets. If the tank only has one target he shouldn't be cleaving or whirlwinding anyway and can continue to focus on that one target. The onus is on the tank to know if there is a mage with poly available that will be sheeping adds and not panic if one comes. They should trust that the mage will sheep that add as discussed earlier.
Quick point that came to mind here. Regardless of what party roll you play every player should always know the current sheep/caster ratio and know if poly is available or not. This allows you to react more appropriately under many circumstances.
The tank's job I already mentioned a bit above, but basically it comes down to understanding the sheep/mage ratio again. If there is a sheep available then the tank should be able to assume that the mage will poly an add. If not then the tank should go grab aggro on the add ASAP. If an add comes in and sheep is expected then the tank should hold off for a second on aoe taunts and attacks to avoid popping that sheep. You can still use any single-target abilities without a problem or just build up some rage (as a warrior). If the sheep ends up being too close move your position slightly to keep that sheep out of whirlwind or consecration range. This is sometimes not desirable but how is a macro going to help that anyway? Once again, if the fact that the tank stops aoeing for 2 seconds to assess the situation is the difference between life and death then you have other problems. For all classes it's just a matter of taking 2 seconds' prudence and sheep shouldn't be popped.
Paying attention to the "baa" sound, the casting animation, or a macro should rarely be necessary. You should be able to react indepent of those factors if you consider yourself to be a good player IMO.
I think that covers most of the situations that people have brought up in support of the macro. Still, it could cover for some of the times that things don't go exactly as planned so why not keep it as a safety net? The answers are pretty clear:
1.) Spamming chat. Even if the spell is only cast once or twice in a battle things like LoS issues, retargetting, and out of range castings can spam chat with a lot of poly messages in a short time. This can distract greatly from more important information.
2.) Distinguishing targets. As has been metioned before there can be multiple targets with the same name or it can be difficult to recognize which target a macro is referring to. This just distracts people from their real jobs. You'll know soon enough that a sheep is coming when it polymorphs and then you will see the sheep and know exactly which target it is. Once again this requires holding off for 2 seconds to see what is happening before you start switching targets. If you do pop a sheep you should instantly switch to a different target. The mage will almost certainly try again in another second and if you pop it twice then you are hindering the party. As Skan said, I have been in situations where if a shackle got popped I've had people apologize to me after the battle. If you pop a sheep you know who you are, just fix it and move on.
I personally ignore any sheep macros I ever see now and react with what I see on the screen in front of me. If your party has any experience and some simple protocols then the macro shouldn't be necessary and it's negatives say you just shouldn't use it. I'd even go so far as to say that you shouldn't use it with newer players and instead try to teach them to adapt without it. My opinion is that it is just a crutch and you are better off without it.
YMMV.
- mjdoom
I apologize ahead of time as I imagine this post is going to be long. After thinking about sheep/shack macros and seeing people's comments here I think I am going to add my own two cents. The short version is that I believe that these macros are an attempt at a crutch to cover sub-par play and that any fully competent group shouldn't have much need for them. Given that caveat the macros may actually be useful when you are partying with people who are not as reliable (pubbies tend to get this rep) and that is what my post on shackling made mention of.
I'm going to run through some of the pros can cons I have seen mentioned about the macros and add my comments here. If anyone sees anything I miss please tell me so that I can consider them.
First of all, some classes should never have to worry about popping a sheep. These include rogues, hunters, cat-form druids and any paladin or off tank who is providing dps (shamans?). These people should all be following some sort of assist pattern and the person who is main assist simply has to pick targets off of the tank's aggro list. As long as this main assist is competent and everyone is assiting him none of these characters should ever pop a sheep (or shackle; I'm going to consider them to be synonomous for the purposes of this discussion as they work virtually identically).
Warlocks would also fit in that previous list but for the fact that they have DoTs (as Xanthix mentioned). Priests also have SW:P that they like to toss around. This should honestly never be an issue. I learned very quickly as a priest that indiscriminately throwing SW:P around with mages in the party was an extremely foolish tactic. Any PC with a DoT attack should know how many mages are in the party. Until there are an equal number of sheeps to mages (aka 2 mages-> 2 sheep) do not cast any DoTs. Once you know who all of the sheep are feel free to open up on appropriate targets. For the most part these DoTs should be following the assist pattern of all of the dps classes anyway. If the fact that you have to wait 2 seconds extra to cast a DoT is the difference between winning and losing a battle than you have other issues.
Mages also should be following the same assist pattern but they are in the position of being the sheeper. Once they have successfully polyed a target they should fall in line with dropping other targets. The important thing here though is for the mage to communicate ahead of time how they are going to sheep. That means telling your party/raid what your sheep pattern will be on a pull and how you will handle adds. Once this is coordinated everyone should know this and react accordingly. This was mentioned earlier but a "sheep left" or known pre-pull pattern can easily be established and followed.
For sheeping adds it is imperative for the mage to try to sheep adds ASAP before they get into range of the tank or any aoe. If they don't then the sheep is going to be popped a solid majority of the time regardless of whether a macro is used. If the sheep is in range of aoe taunts or whirwind or the like the tank is going to have to adjust and move his position which might be a pain to do. Also note that this should only be an issue if the tank already has 2 or more targets. If the tank only has one target he shouldn't be cleaving or whirlwinding anyway and can continue to focus on that one target. The onus is on the tank to know if there is a mage with poly available that will be sheeping adds and not panic if one comes. They should trust that the mage will sheep that add as discussed earlier.
Quick point that came to mind here. Regardless of what party roll you play every player should always know the current sheep/caster ratio and know if poly is available or not. This allows you to react more appropriately under many circumstances.
The tank's job I already mentioned a bit above, but basically it comes down to understanding the sheep/mage ratio again. If there is a sheep available then the tank should be able to assume that the mage will poly an add. If not then the tank should go grab aggro on the add ASAP. If an add comes in and sheep is expected then the tank should hold off for a second on aoe taunts and attacks to avoid popping that sheep. You can still use any single-target abilities without a problem or just build up some rage (as a warrior). If the sheep ends up being too close move your position slightly to keep that sheep out of whirlwind or consecration range. This is sometimes not desirable but how is a macro going to help that anyway? Once again, if the fact that the tank stops aoeing for 2 seconds to assess the situation is the difference between life and death then you have other problems. For all classes it's just a matter of taking 2 seconds' prudence and sheep shouldn't be popped.
Paying attention to the "baa" sound, the casting animation, or a macro should rarely be necessary. You should be able to react indepent of those factors if you consider yourself to be a good player IMO.
I think that covers most of the situations that people have brought up in support of the macro. Still, it could cover for some of the times that things don't go exactly as planned so why not keep it as a safety net? The answers are pretty clear:
1.) Spamming chat. Even if the spell is only cast once or twice in a battle things like LoS issues, retargetting, and out of range castings can spam chat with a lot of poly messages in a short time. This can distract greatly from more important information.
2.) Distinguishing targets. As has been metioned before there can be multiple targets with the same name or it can be difficult to recognize which target a macro is referring to. This just distracts people from their real jobs. You'll know soon enough that a sheep is coming when it polymorphs and then you will see the sheep and know exactly which target it is. Once again this requires holding off for 2 seconds to see what is happening before you start switching targets. If you do pop a sheep you should instantly switch to a different target. The mage will almost certainly try again in another second and if you pop it twice then you are hindering the party. As Skan said, I have been in situations where if a shackle got popped I've had people apologize to me after the battle. If you pop a sheep you know who you are, just fix it and move on.
I personally ignore any sheep macros I ever see now and react with what I see on the screen in front of me. If your party has any experience and some simple protocols then the macro shouldn't be necessary and it's negatives say you just shouldn't use it. I'd even go so far as to say that you shouldn't use it with newer players and instead try to teach them to adapt without it. My opinion is that it is just a crutch and you are better off without it.
YMMV.
- mjdoom
Stormrage:
Flyndar (60) - Dwarf Priest - Tailoring (300), Enchanting (300)
Minimagi (60) - Gnome Mage - Herbalism (300), Engineering (301)
Galreth (60) - Human Warrior - Blacksmithing (300), Alchemy (300); Critical Mass by name, Lurker in spirit
ArynWindborn (19) - Human Paladin - Mining/Engineering (121)
Flyndar (60) - Dwarf Priest - Tailoring (300), Enchanting (300)
Minimagi (60) - Gnome Mage - Herbalism (300), Engineering (301)
Galreth (60) - Human Warrior - Blacksmithing (300), Alchemy (300); Critical Mass by name, Lurker in spirit
ArynWindborn (19) - Human Paladin - Mining/Engineering (121)