This Thing You Call Aggro.

[Drasca]

me handle humanoids on the healer with Seduce, you stay on the main target I'd happily oblige. And would Serpent Sting the main target. And would, presumably, get kicked[right][snapback]78940[/snapback][/right]

Get kicked? Not for main target. Lectured. SS on main target isn't vital either way--with the exception of 40 man raid target with only 5 debuff slots. Raid leader might kick you for that if you do it too often after being asked not to.

We both agree on illogical behaviour of SS on CC'able targets, especially ones meant to be re-CC'ed. That's kick-worthy, no?

If you're having problems convincing Hunters to let you handle the strays then I agree that's strange and rather illogical.

Stopped what? Stopped using Garrotte and Rupture? Do you kick them if they do?

If it causes wipes, yes. Any dot, any intentional insubordination (i.e. repetition of setting on our toes after asked not to), that means a kick if it was my party.

We lecture rogues about expose armor too. In fact, it is usually more experienced rogues lecturing less experienced rogues about it--rather than other classes.

Let's be honest, wouldn't you take this to be more credible if I played a hunter as one of my mains?

Against a heavily armoured opponent they are losing damage and adding excess immediate threat by eschewing these attacks.

Against a 10k+ health enemy, their individual damage won't be enough to reach the kill in 3-10 seconds threshold. Even 500 dps would take 20 seconds, and yours is 300 tops while the enemy remains at range.

If the enemy can kill you in 10 seconds... off-tanking isn't going to fly.

You define good hunter as someone who doesn't use Serpent Sting and enforce it.

The key requirement is don't use SS when asked. If you don't play good boy in large raid instances, you simply won't be invited.

Its illogical to take away CC options after gently being asked not to. You know it. I know it. Opening with sting does that. When coordinating, I ask hunters not to open with sting, and use their scatter, clip and kite skills.

Also, as great as off-tanking is, its just sometimes not enough. Do I underestimate? No, some enemies simply have brute numbers on their side in terms of damage. Beyond that, you could be CC'ing at least one target and off-tanking or DPS'ing another. CC first. If the enemy is relatively solo-able, and any number of tactics may work, I lay off and just let the mobs die at our feet.

There is a difficulty threshhold when enemy numbers need to be culled and reduces the types and success rate of tactics available. Eventually, with particularly difficult mobs, Serpent sting will interfere with debuffs get pushed aside, and off-tanking is an action of futility against many mobs.

Believe it or not, I do ask what skills and talents every class brings to the table and design tactics around available abilities. Why else would I request cat form track humanoid out of druids (fairly rare event outside of experienced players I'd say), name several hunter advanced CC options and combos in this thread alone, and other rarely discussed but cool and enjoyable abilities like detect magic off magi, mind numbing poison off rogues, and curse removal from druids.

I've done that. I know when SS works and when it doesn't Raid instances on main targets, its going to get pushed off or push off better debuff. When AoE'ing, you're free to do anything you'd like so long as you don't steal aggro at the wrong time and place. 5 man instances without warlocks? Debuff slots aren't a problem, and you don't have a sympathetic or understanding ear.

Admittedly, I've let these posts get a bit sloppy because of knee jerk reactions. You don't play in these situations (yet? as I'm unsure of your level), you don't play alongside warlocks, and you don't play where use of your skills becomes a problem.

Again you use words sloppily. "Nil" does not mean 490 damage over 15 seconds. It means zero damage over 15 seconds.

30 dps against a 10k health target in 15 seconds = approx 5% health after 15 seconds. Hmm. Not enough. Far far less if this debuff is pushed off. Or, it may push off a higher damage debuff.

It increases damage for players using those type of attacks.

That's a given, but its increasing damage from many sources as opposed to one, and increasing damage more than any one dot.

I still consider these universal for a reason: with trio of options of armor reduction, lowering resists of arcane & shadow or fire & (if they ever fix it) frost, that increases damages of most types (and all these damage buffers may stack with 3 players). Only nature and holy are missing. In addition, once seeing an increased damage of a particular type, other players can focus using that type of damage. Focusing on Moonfire for druids rather than nature, switching to arcane or fire for mages, fire option for shamans, shadow rather than holy for priests, and locks choose whatever's convinient between shadow and fire while their pets gain from melee debuffs as well.

While there may be situations where the 8 debuff limit is a problem

May? Debuff limit is the warlock's plague. Put your SS aside when playing with locks on main targets. A warlock can easily output 4-5 debuff slots alone with his dots, curses and channeled spells. If he's a certain talent spec, that can up to 7, possibly all 8 if he's particularly unlucky.

How would you feel if your auto-shoot took up a slot and then was pushed off.

The main reasons you don't play alongside locks (and sympathize why the debuff limit hurts so much) seem to be:

1) Simply not many locks on servers in general. Second lowest % played class.

2) Limiations of 5 man instances. Having a lock is an 'extra' outside the holy trinity of warrior/mage/priest.

If you wanted a rogue or a paladin in addition, you certainly cannot play alongside a lock with that player limit. Repeating classes only add to the class variety limit.

2 rogues, 2 Paladins and yourself? You're the only one whose debuffs last more than 3 seconds. Of course you don't see why debuffs are a problem.

Hunter's mark, venom sting, pushed off? Still too incremental compared to your auto shot to matter. Your damage should still benefit from sunder armor, and trueshot aura.

I don't often find this to be true in 5 man groups

This is where we differ. 5 man group instance mobs are individually a lot easier to solo.

I'm pretty sure you can off-tank any number of 5 man instance mobs. That changes when the mobs get rougher. What happens when the mob may kill you in 3-4 hits? or 1-2? That is where CC will prevent more damage than your talents will mitigate and heal you with.

In any event if the hunter can solo it that's one mob that won't eat the healer, so cc at the price of neutralising the hunter. Seduce and Sheep do not work on every type of mob. Damage, afaik, does

If it drops you, it'll go on next on its hate list... and who's that? Healer. So we've lost ranged dps, and our healer's next upon the hate list and has built up quite a bit compartively against the warrior. All this while the warrior may have to fight for aggro against you.

Hmm, assuming we have both mage and warlock, we're likely to have a healer in form of priest or druid as well. So we have additional forms of either shackle or sleep appropriate to the instance. So... what can't be CC'ed? We've covered humanoid, beast, dragonkin, demon, elemental and undead. That's everything

I hope you see that seeing a dot is not proof of an idiot  :)

I'd say bravo, you've demonstrated mostly good demeanor and good play in general. You are most certainly an elegant player, but that is not to say you're going to be experienced or sympathetic in areas you don't face day-to-day where other players have learned better already.

Tit for tat on open-mindedness please. SS can and will be a problem when there's CC and debuff limits involved. As I play a warlock with many CC options and easily approaches the debuff limit solo these problems are the norm for me. In raids, Sting debuff dots interferes with other debuffs on main target, and it prevents CC options from being played.

No one will lecture you when you use the right skill at the right time, but I'm trying to warn you about what is the wrong time.

I don't enjoy SS for the reasons above. I don't enjoy it even more because newbish hunters always open with it, hunter's mark, pet-attack and auto-shot, completely ignoring their other tactical options. There are players who insist using a tactical option they've used all their early careers that simply won't hold water in later events, regardless of the situation. You defend your tactics, but fail to conceive or concede when it won't work or become a problem. That's dangerously noobish, wouldn't you agree?