SR: Magmadar: Dead.

[Darian]

More progress tonight!

Grats to:
Killion (House Harpell): Felheart Bracers
Anadrol (CA): Medallion of Steadfast Might
Rayen (Basin): Earthshaker (sick 2h mace...)
Me: Pattern: Core Marksman Rifle
and Silverflail (Lurkers): Pants of Prophecy

What we learned Saturday that helped us tonight: MOVE FAST.

What we learned tonight: one dwarf priest is better than none. And sometimes, the stance dance doesn't work. GG and I both got feared twice despite having Berserker Rage up.

Anyway, big thanks to the Basiners who tagged along, and we're one more step toward the end. Great job!

[Treesh]

Grats to:
Silverflail (Lurkers): Pants of Prophecy

<snip>

What we learned tonight: one dwarf priest is better than none.
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I say the pants should have been mine because of fear ward. ;) :P

Congrats to all who won and to those who did the work.

*For those wondering, I just popped on to fear ward the tank during Mag so I wasn't one of those who did the work.

[Darian]

I say the pants should have been mine because of fear ward. ;)&nbsp; :P
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You so silly!

Thank you SO much for coming in, Treesh. You may not think you did that much "work," but you were critical in us finally taking that sucker down.

[Kevin]

Not to derail the thread too much but there have been comments about loot (or lack there of) for some people that really make me understand why some guilds use a DKP system now.

Several nice loots have gone to people on their first raid with us. Some loot has gone to people that we haven't seen on a raid anymore. I am not advocating any type of point system for us, but well after being raid leader on Saturday and after being the guy who was relaying stuff from TS to raid chat tonight I got some whispers from some people about loots and such. There were also some people (and yes for those who know there was more than one person) who whispered me saying they were frustrated about being on all the raids and not getting a single piece of loot.

I only bring this up because I'm afraid it's going to become a bigger issue as we go forward, unless we get more settled in with the people who are raiding with us regularly.

Edit: To clarify the "first time they raid with us". This isn't about the Australians or Ruv or anyone else who can only come one night a week. Heck Treesh is pretty much going to be in that class and I might end up there. The issue is that since we keep filling raids from guilds that aren't part of the avarice group that loot has gone to some of them and we haven't seen them again or we've seen them just once after that. There are Basiner's that could end up in that type of category as well. They raid with us 3 or 4 times and maybe win a good loot and then they end up getting in on the Basin raid schedule so we don't see them again in our raids. We could still very well have people that have gone to 15 raids with us that haven't gotten a single good loot. That is the issue, we aren't a "stable" raiding group. And since there have been grumblings about it from some quality players I would like it to become a non issue somehow.



I too must thank Treesh for joining us. If nothing else preventing the first fear on Anadrol to prevent Mag from running around was huge. I know (because well you is my wife) how tired you were. :) With stance dancing not always working, as Darian said there was a time for both him and I where I had my fear immunity from berserker rage but I still got feared. There was another time that CTRA said 5 seconds until next AoE fear and I went berserker stance, hit rage and the fear came 2 seconds after zerk rage wore off. Of course with the fear wards on Anadrol neither Darian or I had to try and step up and tank him since Anadrol just stood there happily and pummeled him.



Finally I'm looking forward to seeing some new parts of the core on Thursday. :)

[TheDragoon]

With regard to loot systems, I think the best discussions that I've seen about how to set up and evaluate a loot system were put together on the Basin boards a while back when they were trying to figure out a system for loot distribution (they ended up with their "BRP" or "Basin Raid Points").

As a quick summary, people tend to place different emphasis or connotations to the use of the word "fair" when trying to come up with a "fair loot distribution system." Really, it comes down to a problem: It's hard to distribute loot evenly while using a system that gives everyone an equal shot at all loot. If you just do a straight random system, you'll end up with some people who get a lot of loot while others get none due to the bell curve of loot acquisition that appears. Thus, a lot of groups instead use things like DKP to distribute loot more evenly throughout. However, that sort of system fails to give everyone an equal shot at each piece of loot. Also, it can seem like too much of a grind (depending upon how it is formulated) and so people don't enjoy it as much.

As for how this affects us, I think that the biggest thing we can improve is communication and being up-front about things. Perhaps at the start of raids, we could have a short demo of how "Dave" works for people so that they know it's coming. Also, there has been some talk of distributing things "for the good of the raid" (though I'm not sure how much effect this has had on the actual distribution, so far) and I think if something like that is going to happen, it should be told to people at the start so it isn't a surprise when it happens. When unexpected things happen, people get agitated/frustrated/suspicious/etc. so we should try and make sure people know what is coming before we start. I know that we're somewhat new to the Molten Core and so some things WILL happen unexpectedly, but I still think we can do better at this in the future.

[Olon97]

With regard to loot systems, I think the best discussions that I've seen about how to set up and evaluate a loot system were put together on the Basin boards a while back when they were trying to figure out a system for loot distribution (they ended up with their "BRP" or "Basin Raid Points").&nbsp;

Most of those discussions currently reside on page 3 (possibly 4 or later if you read this long after I post it.) The discussion was a somewhat painful process for a community that very much likes to think of itself as not about loot.

The BuRP system has been working remarkably well for Basin on Tichondrius (I say as someone with the 21st highest points spent - 22/95 people in the system have yet to get an item), not so sure about how it's going for the Stormrage chapter. One factor that you don't see firsthand until you're well into raiding is how much folks with lots of points pass on items to the point where someone with negative points has a shot at it (meaning someone on their very first raid with 0 points could also have taken the item).

Although it was never an issue, we initially intended to do the system as an "opt in", in that someone could choose to random 1000 against people in the system instead of accumulating points. Once they win something, however, they're in the system (and negative points) whether they like it or not. We've had one time guests, but they have been from other raiding guilds (missed their regular gig) and didn't much care to roll or to collect points (although we track their points in case they change their minds).

[Olon97]

What we learned tonight: one dwarf priest is better than none.&nbsp; And sometimes, the stance dance doesn't work.&nbsp; GG and I both got feared twice despite having Berserker Rage up.

I've never seen that phenomenon. Maybe your fear wards bugged your zerker rage. :P

What we do see fairly often is the timer from whatever UI mod you're using being off (too early, too late). The fear appears to act as a skill on a cooldown (conveniently the same cooldown as zerker rage), which Magdamar usually, but not always, uses whenever it's ready to go.

When I see the "5 seconds 'till fear" warning, I usually start counting to 5 and try to hit zerker rage around 4.5, giving the longest possible window. Messed up the last time I tried to do it MTing (nerves mostly), but as a DPS warrior on that fight I've had at least 5-6 encounters without a single fear.

Congratulations on the Magmadar kill!

[WildFire]

There are Basiner's that could end up in that type of category as well.&nbsp; They raid with us 3 or 4 times and maybe win a good loot and then they end up getting in on the Basin raid schedule so we don't see them again in our raids.&nbsp;

Hi,

I am from the Basin and played Kateley the gnome mage on Saturday during the Luci kill, but couldn't make it to the Maggie kill.

I can see where your coming from, though. Would it make you feel better if I didn't roll on any loot whilst I'm on raids led by Lurkers/CA? Sorry I rolled on the Arcanist Boots on Saturday despite it having been my first raid with you. At this point, I'm only really after the experience of going on MC and Onyxia raids, and would be more than happy to pass on the loot there.

I, too, am in the same boat as the Australians, and as such, won't be able to make most of your raids anyway. So, DKP or BRP, I probably won't be amassing the points necessary to get any items anyway.

However, I would however like some clarification on where Basiners, in general, stand in your games.

[Tuftears]

Woohoo, congratulations!

Basin raid schedule: I'm going to be changing my weekly loot runs to Tuesdays to avoid conflicts with the Lurker/CA raids.

Loot system: might not be a horrible idea. The Basin has already hashed this out over several threads so you might want to take a look at the deliberations - whether or not you like the system that was developed is another question. We certainly don't intend to impose it on others, or even necessarily on ourselves - it's always the raid leader's prerogative to choose whatever system he or she wants.

Personally speaking, all I ask is that I'll get something eventually if I keep going, and that it doesn't bog everyone down in endless calculation.

[Quark]

There were also some people (and yes for those who know there was more than one person) who whispered me saying they were frustrated about being on all the raids and not getting a single piece of loot.
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I wasn't one of those, but I haven't received any loot yet. Let's remember one thing - not much loot has dropped yet. Some classes haven't seen any loot at all, so they just haven't even gotten the chance to roll on anything yet.

[Pesmerga]

Grats All!

I would have been there but between moving into the new apartment and not getting any sleep last night, I was a little exhausted. (Fell asleep on the floor in front of my computer)

::forces Darian to make a Core Marksman's Rifle for him::

[Kevin]

Hi,

I am from the Basin and played Kateley the gnome mage on Saturday during the Luci kill, but couldn't make it to the Maggie kill.

I can see where your coming from, though. Would it make you feel better if I didn't roll on any loot whilst I'm on raids led by Lurkers/CA? Sorry I rolled on the Arcanist Boots on Saturday despite it having been my first raid with you. At this point, I'm only really after the experience of going on MC and Onyxia raids, and would be more than happy to pass on the loot there.

I, too, am in the same boat as the Australians, and as such, won't be able to make most of your raids anyway. So, DKP or BRP, I probably won't be amassing the points necessary to get any items anyway.

However, I would however like some clarification on where Basiners, in general,&nbsp; stand in your games.
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No actually it wouldn't make me feel better. This is the problem. I feel if you are there you should have a shot at the loot. However frustrations have been expressed to me over this. Some people have actually said they don't want to raid anymore because of it and I understand why it frustrates them.

Personally this is a very very tough issue for me. Because I understand that people who have been there a lot and aren't getting anything are going to get frustrated. I understand that people who are there for their first time or even their only time helped us get that loot to drop and deserve it as much as everyone else who was there. Both sides have very legitimate complaints and worries.

I felt I had to post about though because there are people that I really want to continue to raid with us who are really unhappy because of some of it.

[Pesmerga]

The way I see it, if you were on the run that dropped the loot, you should have a chance at it. I only find that to be the fairest way.

I understand why some people complain about being on all the raids and not getting a single drop, but that's not why I'm in to play the game. I like the challenge of the big fight, and being around friends. Loot is just an added bonus.

I like "phat loot" as much as the next person. But just because it's the first (and possibly only) time that someone is in a raid with us, doesn't mean they can't get something.

We're using essentially the same system that we used for the lower level, 10-15 man raids. And after so many raids, loot more or less evened out (cept for Quark, kid has bad luck)

I think, in time, MC will be just like that. The more we kill, the more likely it is that everyone gets this piece of nifty loot.

[Alrin]

Also dont forget that MC can be very frustrating to run, loot wise.

People, everyone needs to remember that this is not a regular blue-drops run.
We get ONE shot at drops per boss PER WEEK. (roughly)
I raided extensively in MC/Onyxia with Militis Justica without ever winning a single roll on arcanist/staffs/caster gear in general. I have like a stupid amount of raid hours amassed and I was just not getting anything. This had me very frustrated. I would spend 6 hours / day during the weekend rushing through MC trash & bosses and lawbringer, felheart, might stuff would drop. On the rare occasion that Arcanist dropped I would roll the equivalent of < 10 in a 1-100 roll and just loose horribly against all the 90+ rolls that people managed to score in a 1-100.

That really got me discouraged.
I finally managed to score some arcanist gloves from Shazzrah just because the other people were mostly decked out and/or had already gotten a purple that day.
Suddenly my enthusiasm skyrocketed again. It's like an injection of vitamines.
But what you must realize is that the more you raid MC, the more people will get geared up and the FEWER competitors you will have for YOUR gear.
Heck, we can even establish some kind of rule that once you get 1 purple / that instance reset, you are done with the loot. Then if more of that class-gear drops, the winner will opt out automatically for the next day/item.
Or something like that.

Rest assured, if you persist in raiding MC you WILL get purples, crafted gear, a good time and alot of experience raiding high end stuff.

I guarantee it.

Carpe Aurum, y'know.

[Pesmerga]

Heck, we can even establish some kind of rule that once you get 1 purple / that instance reset, you are done with the loot. Then if more of that class-gear drops, the winner will opt out automatically for the next day/item.
Or something like that.
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Not a bad idea. ::shrugs:: Very similar to what we do when we run Strath, Scholo, BRS runs, except that it's based over the reset, and not the completion of the instance... although it's close to the same thing.

[NotSoDarklord]

Another kill when pesmerga was not there. Coincidence....? <3

[Tal]

Edit: Statements retracted to avoid drama. Congratulations again folks - I'm proud of each and every one of you.

[mjdoom]

What we do see fairly often is the timer from whatever UI mod you're using being off (too early, too late). The fear appears to act as a skill on a cooldown (conveniently the same cooldown as zerker rage), which Magdamar usually, but not always, uses whenever it's ready to go.

When I see the "5 seconds 'till fear" warning, I usually start counting to 5 and try to hit zerker rage around 4.5, giving the longest possible window. Messed up the last time I tried to do it MTing (nerves mostly), but as a DPS warrior on that fight I've had at least 5-6 encounters without a single fear.

Congratulations on the Magmadar kill!
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To expound on this a little Magmadar's fear seems to be one of those skills that he can use every 30 seconds. This means that he can use it any time he feels like once 30 seconds have passed. For this reason mod timers can be slightly off. The one time that I faced Magmadar with Galreth I did pretty much the same thing Olon advocates here; I hit my berserker rage about 4 seconds after the mod's warning in order to give myself the biggest window. This resulted in only one fear on my first (and only) attempt so far and I would expect that I can iron that out to zero fears per kill (barring extenuating circumstances) pretty soon.

Also, GRATZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- mjdoom

[Kevin]

To expound on this a little Magmadar's fear seems to be one of those skills that he can use every 30 seconds.&nbsp; This means that he can use it any time he feels like once 30 seconds have passed.&nbsp; For this reason mod timers can be slightly off.&nbsp; The one time that I faced Magmadar with Galreth I did pretty much the same thing Olon advocates here; I hit my berserker rage about 4 seconds after the mod's warning in order to give myself the biggest window.&nbsp; This resulted in only one fear on my first (and only) attempt so far and I would expect that I can iron that out to zero fears per kill (barring extenuating circumstances) pretty soon.

Also, GRATZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- mjdoom
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That is what I was doing as well. And I know that one time the fear hit after my berserker rage was down. But there was a time when I had the berserker rage and the fear icon both up on my screen. Berserker rage and fear were running simultaneously. I would have thought it was just a lag thing or I was seeing things wrongs until Darian reported the exact same thing. However this may still have just been something about last night as well. There was a lot of server lag going on (general chat proved that) and we all noticed it in there as well, so it still could have been some kind of lag condition, but even if that is the case it makes stance dancing even less reliable and is something that needs to be considered.

Regardless I do agree that doing the stance change and rage as late as possible is the best idea. This is two fold. One you get the best chance of stopping the fear and two you spend less time in berserk stance, both of which are good if you are the tank (if you are just trying to be 2nd or 3rd on the hate list it isn't as important).

[Alrin]

For example last night the sick two handed mace dropped and the Wrath Necklace. It was stated in Teamspeak that warriors only on the necklace so I knew that, even though I could make use of the neck I was already limited to rolling on the mace. But there were warriors rolling on the mace with the paladins. Again, not necessarily begrudging them rolling on the mace, it was a very sick weapon, but it just seemed a little unfair given that they could roll on two items while us paladins were limited to one.

Oh trust me, I know this all too well.
There will be drops where one class is favored by most drops and then there will be the "good drops", ie drops which caters to alot of classes.
In hindsight, we probably could have rolled the warrior necklace first, and THEN the 2hander, effectively eliminating one of the warriors from rolling on an item that was warrior/paladin suitable.

Don't worry though, you pallies get ALOT of love in MC :)
Trust me, every week when we're running it (we=mj) we are literally swimming in Lawbringer gear. I wouldn't be surprised to see a bunch of them drop for us as well :)