Dark Clouds Gather

[Tal]

I'm never happy about seeing people I like leave the guild, but I can comprehend the reasoning behind it. I do not like at all criticizing the dearly departed for some perceived imbalance in "contributing", first because I admire and respect them for their time and efforts, and secondly because I don't want to play this game with a scorecard.
[right][snapback]84209[/snapback][/right]

That would be my preference as well. Especially when we have folks like yourself who go from a Maurodon session straight into Scholomance. We wouldn't be anywhere if we kept score on who has done the most. :) We all succeed together.

[Darian]

If you truly wanted that there would have been an active recruiting policy.  This dilemma the Lurker's face is fixable.  Blaming the exodus of players is convenient but doesn't solve the real problem, the lack of new people coming in.
[right][snapback]84204[/snapback][/right]

Do you really not see that "an active recruiting policy" and "forging solid alliances between small guilds" aren't really any different in effect?

Your implication that Tal and I (because when it comes to this, we have to be viewed together, as neither guild on its own would ever be able to get this done anyway) have been sitting around with our thumbs up our backsides is not only insulting, it's basically inaccurate. We're constantly looking for more people to work with so that we can get to endgame. Quit pretending like this is happening because nobody's acting.

[Tal]

The Lurkers have not lost one iota of effort because Rylea is no longer in the guild.
[right][snapback]84208[/snapback][/right]

And in you we have lost a good, well equipped player who was knowledgeable about the game. My statements about effort was towards those we got through to be able to do Onyxia and MC. Without you, Arethor and Flyn our chances at fielding a raid group is diminished further. Like it or not you guys are a big part of our successes - not having you on our next attempt at Onyxia/MC does set us back.

[Skandranon]

How so?
[right][snapback]84205[/snapback][/right]

Because it's not fun any more, Tal. And I don't pay C$17 a month to not have fun. Playing with the Lurkers, with Rylea at least, has become more stress than entertainment, and I took that as a sure sign that it was time to go.

I don't want to have to play every run wondering if the next wipe is going to make people quit in frustration. I don't want to have to guide a raid wondering if my next piece of advice is going to anger people for holding their hands. I don't want to have to talk in guild chat knowing that people are ready to go off on me for the slightest comment, and I don't want to play in a raid when three or four people are doing their damnedest to emote that they're not having fun and would rather be anywhere else, doing anything else. It hurts, Tal, don't you understand? I worry. I want everyone to be having fun and every time someone snaps at me or says that they're not having fun it hurts me personally. And I don't want to feel like that any more.

[Treesh]

Edited because it just doesn't matter.

[Skandranon]

You're a smart person - an eerily smart person.  Certainly you can see where the anger is coming from?  Not that you're leaving.  It's that you're leaving NOW, after a bunch of pipedreams blow up in peoples' faces.

This too shall pass.  But you couldn't have expected any other reaction.
[right][snapback]84215[/snapback][/right]

No, I knew exactly what reaction I was going to get. Certainly your move - and a "sideways" one at that - prepared me for what I was going to get. But I'm explaining things because I want people to understand why I left. I want them to know what's wrong so they can go ahead and fix it, or not fix it as they choose.

And you're right - it is about pipe dreams and illusions. I'd rather not have them operate under those illusions any more. Not just because it's better for me if they don't, because it is, but because it's better for them.

[Tal]

Because it's not fun any more, Tal.  And I don't pay C$17 a month to not have fun.  Playing with the Lurkers, with Rylea at least, has become more stress than entertainment, and I took that as a sure sign that it was time to go.

I don't want to have to play every run wondering if the next wipe is going to make people quit in frustration.  I don't want to have to guide a raid wondering if my next piece of advice is going to anger people for holding their hands.  I don't want to have to talk in guild chat knowing that people are ready to go off on me for the slightest comment, and I don't want to play in a raid when three or four people are doing their damnedest to emote that they're not having fun and would rather be anywhere else, doing anything else.  It hurts, Tal, don't you understand?  I worry.  I want everyone to be having fun and every time someone snaps at me or says that they're not having fun it hurts me personally.  And I don't want to feel like that any more.
[right][snapback]84220[/snapback][/right]

I can certainly understand that. That kind of frustration was also what drove me to bring Shalandrax up. I worried constantly that folks weren't having fun when I was the MT on Sharanna. I knew that there were encounters that Shar couldn't main tank. Folks needed a warrior that could step in and lead these things. So I brought Shal up superspeed to assist with that.

For the record, and on a personal note, I have never not had fun with you around. Going into Onyxia/Molten Core without you feels like I'm going in with one shoe at home. :/

[Sword_of_Doom]

Do you really not see that "an active recruiting policy" and "forging solid alliances between small guilds" aren't really any different in effect?

Your implication that Tal and I (because when it comes to this, we have to be viewed together, as neither guild on its own would ever be able to get this done anyway) have been sitting around with our thumbs up our backsides is not only insulting, it's basically inaccurate.  We're constantly looking for more people to work with so that we can get to endgame.  Quit pretending like this is happening because nobody's acting.
[right][snapback]84218[/snapback][/right]

We now have approximately 20 raiding guilds on our server (i am guessing that is an extraodinary number). Historically, i would say 50% of the guilds doing Molten Core and Onyxia start out as a coalition. For example Dakor used Zeal and others to fill out their raids. But eventually the main guild in this case Dakor grows to a point where they no longer need the helper guild, Zeal. The end effect is Zeal disbanded just 2 weeks ago. Another example is the Horde Raiding Union (H.R.U.). They formed a coalition in April that survived until June. They have now split into two builds, Splintered Faction and Bogtroopers. I had the priviledge of being on their Ventrilo a few times. Coalitions only last a short time, its the facts. The smaller guild always gets the shaft when the larger one decides they can do it on their own.

The history of coalitions is short. Why loosely associate and have the chance of being discarded rather than taking a little bit more time and getting a 40 man raid group under the same label. Its the same effort doing both ways but far less risk if you go the one tag route.

I apologize if you feel i am slighting your leadership. Your picking a far difficult path, one that i would not take. I truly hope it works out for both of you in the end :)

[Skandranon]

For the record, and on a personal note, I have never not had fun with you around. Going into Onyxia/Molten Core without you feels like I'm going in with one shoe at home. :/
[right][snapback]84223[/snapback][/right]

I always enjoyed playing with you, too, Tal. But I was ending every raid mad as hell, sobbing in tears, or both. You can't honestly ask me to keep doing it.

[Darian]

The history of coalitions is short.  Why loosely associate and have the chance of being discarded rather than taking a little bit more time and getting a 40 man raid group under the same label.  Its the same effort doing both ways but far less risk if you go the one tag route.
[right][snapback]84224[/snapback][/right]

There is no "larger" guild in this alliance, though. Both guilds have about the same number of players with capped characters* willing to raid, and neither guild is particularly interested in mass recruitment. CA takes the lead in organizing and running things for raids, but that's alleviated by the fact that while I'm not a <Lurker>, I AM a Lurker, and refuse to give <Lurkers> the short end of the stick.

[Tal]

I always enjoyed playing with you, too, Tal.&nbsp; But I was ending every raid mad as hell, sobbing in tears, or both.&nbsp; You can't honestly ask me to keep doing it.
[right][snapback]84225[/snapback][/right]

No, no I can't and won't.

[Skandranon]

It's one thing to say "I want to 5-man it and discover it for myself", go do it, and then proceed to raids and additional runs to help people gear up.

It's quite another to say "I want to 5-man it" and then play alts, raid something else, play alts more, delay, auction, craft, farm, play alts more, and keep saying you don't want to raid or do loot runs because you want to discover it first.&nbsp; It's been over a month since I suggested you find yourself a discovery group to go into DM West; since I said that DM West is a variety of fun challenges and that you'd really enjoy it.&nbsp; More than a month.&nbsp; Have you been in there yet?
[right][snapback]84201[/snapback][/right]

I want to clarify my stance from when I said this. I don't mean to imply that finding other ways to have fun in this game are wrong or inferior. You all made certain choices regarding the ways you wanted to have fun in this game; I made certain other choices. Neither are better or worse, just different. Mine don't fit yours, that's all, which was another factor in my departure. I don't pay the money to play my game according to someone else's play preferences - and neither do you. So I won't be around to bug people to go on raids any more, which should work out better for everyone.

[kandrathe]

*oops, wrong place.*

[kandrathe]

Believe or not, Kandrathe, items had absolutely nothing to do with me leaving.&nbsp; I want to take the biggest challenges in the game, at the time that they're the biggest challenges - not when Blizz nerfs them down so everyone can see them.&nbsp; I want that feeling of being challenged again, not the same old autopilot through every instance.&nbsp; The Razorgore encounter in BWL is the most wonderfully challenging encounter I've had in the game so far; it reminded me of what it is to have fun in this game.&nbsp; That's what I wanted, and it's what I've got.
[right][snapback]84210[/snapback][/right]

I focused on phat lewt, because that was the gist of the post to which I was responding. Your goal was to be playing BWL the day it was released, and for me, I can wait until I have a cadre of comrades who are ready to go with me.

I think it diminishes the efforts and goals of those who remain to label tham as "pipe dreams". I railed against it in May, and I will again now. Will Lurkers/CA/GoE/KoC get to BWL? Eventually. Not as fast as IA, so grab your gusto and howl.

I started playing 6 months later than most of you, so maybe I'm still *fresh* on level 60 content. I'm glad you found some *real* players to get you there faster, just don't expect me to be happy about losing fine people to a guild that already has plenty of fine people. The 7 or 8 people that are gone now are some great and talented players, and it is a huge set back for those of us that remain, committed to moving Lurkers / CA / GoE /KoC group forward.

[mjdoom]

Your goal was to be playing BWL the day it was released, and for me, I can wait until I have a cadre of comrades who are ready to go with me.

[right][snapback]84232[/snapback][/right]

I've waited a long time for this cadre of comrades to come. Realistically progress has been made in this area but still Lurkers/CA struggles to even get 30 people on a raid. There are a few more people in the pipeline but I can only wait so long. We managed to almost fill out MC last Thursday thanks to picking up about 10-15 people from Determined. Before they showed up we didn't have enough to start... If I continue to wait I am liable to quit the game outright before we can consistently do that.

The people who have been showing up also include some who are not particularly oriented toward raids and were getting burnt out on it after three weeks of raiding twice in a week. This is just a symptom of further troubles getting enough numbers to continue raiding in the future.

Let's get down to some details:

Some people question why this decision was made now. The reality is that I almost made this decision a while back but then I saw a new push to try to get to end game content. I decided to stay and help with this push to see where it would go. After seeing how raiding has gone the last 3 weeks; low numbers, having to grab other unknown guilds, people getting burnt out over a short period of time; I realized that it just wasn't going to work. BWL is still brand new so it is a chance for me to switch before the content gets trivialized. I spent about an hour after we finished wiping to Razorgore the other night discussing possible strategies with people and I enjoyed it very much. Some people might see this time as us approaching a raiding mass; I've seen it as a confirmation of my fears that the people in Lurkers just aren't raid oriented. Whether you want to face that truth or not (I tried to deny it for a long time myself) it is there for all to see.

I am also not just running off to some guild of random people (like some of the guilds that we were pulling in just so that we could get into MC seemed to be to me). Prior to this last round of switching I already had 4 good friends in IA and have known a lot about their guild for a while. As far as I can tell IA is a guild that has values similar to the Lurkers but is oriented more towards raiding. It is a bit scary to be going to a guild that I don't know so well (even with my friends there) from the Lurkers but I felt it was a move I had to make and IA was the guild to give a shot to. As I have said to others in the past; the only guild I ever considered going to other than Lurkers was IA due to my perceptions of the high end raiding guilds. I agree with many of the values that Lurkers hold dear and I wasn't going to give that up just to see end game content. With IA I feel that I won't have to abandon these values in my pursuit.

I mentioned earlier that with BWL coming out it was an opportunity to switch when content was fresh. It is also true that IA currently has space for people to join up. This added to a good time to jump in on the opportunity before they filled up again and I went back to waiting and hoping that Lurkers/CA/[whomever fills raids] would pull through.

I appreciate all of the efforts that Darian has put in in an attempt to make this work (whether he believes me or not) but as I see it the only way that it WILL work is if we continue to try to find more smaller guilds to pick up to fill out raids. At this point I'm not sure that I would even be raiding with "Lurkers" any more.

It might hurt but the writing is on the wall. I've been ignoring it for a long time but I can't anymore as it is destroying my fun. When we are not doing our Monday/Thursday raids I've just been farming lately which doesn't really appeal to me. I hit the wall trying to level my third 60 (which Nini alluded to as a strategy to buy time waiting earlier). It was not really fun any more.

I realize I might not make any friends with my ramblings here but such is life. I'm sick of trying to toe around the issue because I respect you all as people and friends and don't want to say anything that might hurt anyone. I didn't expect everyone to be happy about this and your responses are not going to make me start ignoring you or dislike you. I really meant it when I said that Lurkers were great people and that opinion still hasn't changed. I still hope to see you all in game and look forward to those times when I do group with you or help you in your in-game pursuits.

- mjdoom

[Darian]

I appreciate all of the efforts that Darian has put in in an attempt to make this work (whether he believes me or not) but as I see it the only way that it WILL work is if we continue to try to find more smaller guilds to pick up to fill out raids.[right][snapback]84237[/snapback][/right]

You may be right.

But, given your appreciation for all my effort... don't you think coming to me and talking to me about this beforehand to let me know your concerns might have been warranted? From MY perspective, since the three of you were all deeply involved in my efforts to get this thing off the ground for Lurkers/CA, all of your departures came completely out of left field. I had zero idea that you were actually dissatisfied with the progress. I had zero idea that you thought things weren't going to work -- helped along, I might add, by statements from both you and Skan that you thought we could take out Onyxia with 25 people.

It's like you stuck around to work toward one step of the solution to the problem, but then when that step wasn't enough of a step, you just left without even trying to help brainstorm solutions for the next step. And -- given all the effort I put into trying to salvage everything over the last three months and stop the bleeding -- that hurts.

[NotSoDarklord]

Can you really blame them darian? I've been on vent during MC/Onyxia lurker runs, and what do you know what I hear more than anything? Chaos and frustration. Endgame content is supposed to be challenging, but it's not supposed to make you upset... you are still supposed to enjoy this GAME. I've heard some of the horror stories as well. Multiple raids wiped by a single person who's just a tad slow to stop attacking onyxia at the beginning of stage 3?

I wonder how many other lurker/CA people secretly voice dissatisfaction with the state of how things were going... because while there is progression... that progression just isn't coming easy/quickly by any means. I've HEARD people yelled at, and at the same time I've seen/heard of mistakes of a colossal nature. Mistakes that are simply a matter of not paying attention. To raid you need a high percentage of people paying attention to balance out those that aren't. The top end guilds have everyone focused when they try something new (or at least that's my opinion).

There is a difference in the players in these guilds mind you. That alone is a reason that makes them so appealing. I never really see aggro taken on onyxia by an app to IA. I've never really seen anyone fail to get the stage 3 progression right and stop attacking. Never seen people fail to run when they have the geddon bomb. A new hunter fail to tranq mag...etc. (these examples were just to show that even the new people... the ones that don't know the encounters other than vaguely via CQ website... still aren't making some of the mistakes I hear happening again and again) These mistakes are to some extent a measure of that person's ability to play their class. Now I understand that mistakes happen... but in the fights where a single inattentive person can wipe the raid or at least cripple it... things can get real frustrating real fast.

And here is where I attempt to back off a bit so I don't get flamed to all hell. I love the lurkers. I think it's a great social guild/atmosphere. Let me say though that some people just want more? If I was still in lurkers would you expect someone who can raid 7 days a week to actually settle for 2 if I'm lucky? 2 people WILL NOT kill the lurkers. 3 people wont. It's a serious blow especially given the players, but just how many people is lurkers short of to even try to do raiding with a casual atmosphere. Militis Justica does it... and by my last count there were over 130 active 60's (with some hardcore players and some casual they can field a raid 3-4 times a week)

[Lissa]

Because it's not fun any more, Tal.&nbsp; And I don't pay C$17 a month to not have fun.&nbsp; Playing with the Lurkers, with Rylea at least, has become more stress than entertainment, and I took that as a sure sign that it was time to go.

I don't want to have to play every run wondering if the next wipe is going to make people quit in frustration.&nbsp; I don't want to have to guide a raid wondering if my next piece of advice is going to anger people for holding their hands.&nbsp; I don't want to have to talk in guild chat knowing that people are ready to go off on me for the slightest comment, and I don't want to play in a raid when three or four people are doing their damnedest to emote that they're not having fun and would rather be anywhere else, doing anything else.&nbsp; It hurts, Tal, don't you understand?&nbsp; I worry.&nbsp; I want everyone to be having fun and every time someone snaps at me or says that they're not having fun it hurts me personally.&nbsp; And I don't want to feel like that any more.
[right][snapback]84220[/snapback][/right]

If you think it was bad with Lurkers Skan, it's going to be much, much worse in a month of two with IA. You think I'm joking, but this is your first MMORPG. I have seen this happen way too many times with other MMORPGs and friends there and what eventually happened to let it slide this time.

If you think it's bad that you don't have fun, wait till IA keeps pushing you to do things that you really dread. This is the problem with raiding guilds and raiding guilds will only cause one of two things for someone that joins them, either they burnout and leave the guild because of the strictness or they burnout and leave the game. Why do you think you're seeing things in IA right now with not enough people for MC or BWL? Why do you think 11 people almost left IA the other night becuase they didn't want to exploit a bug on the first boss? You're seeing what happens in a raiding guild before your eyes.

The warnings are there, but, you've never seen it before and don't realize what's coming. If you think that think that you'll be happy there, you might, but, I have seen way too many people go down the road you're going end up tossing the game after a few months because; a) the maker of the MMORPG doesn't release high end content quick enough and people burnout on doing the same dungeon with the same character over and over and over again, B) the guild leadership pressures people into playing one character to the exclusion of all others, not allowing the members time to try and enjoy other characters and pushing them towards burnout, c) all the luster gets lost as you don't see anything but that one character.

Let me ask you this as well, you never played in Beta so you have about 8 months of time since the game has been out. Look at myself, Tal, Roane, Ruvanul, Bolty, Mongo, Dragoon, and others that were in the closed test. We've been playing this game from a year plus, yet we still find things and still haven't seen the luster lost. The key to playing is moderation. That is the problem that you're running into, you have played Rylea to exclusion for the most part. How often have you taken Katrin out since you hit 60 with her? How often do you play your Rogue or your Warrior? Look at their /played sometime, it might just be a complete eye openner. While it's interesting to build a character up, there does come a point that playing that one character to exclusion or following only the goals of that one character to the exclusion of others leads to the not-funness that you're talking about. How many different characters did you have in Diablo and Diablo 2? Did you play one character to the exclusion of all others? Did you eventually get burned out by playing that one character over and over again?

You're (and Flyn and Arethor) at the crossroads of burnout. One path will lead to further burnout, the other will give you a fresh perspective. The choice is yours.

[Kevin]

No.&nbsp; In many ways, I feel it's worse.
This is a fine thing to feel, GG.&nbsp; Laudable, even.&nbsp; So if you really mean it, go do it.

It's one thing to say "I want to 5-man it and discover it for myself", go do it, and then proceed to raids and additional runs to help people gear up.

It's quite another to say "I want to 5-man it" and then play alts, raid something else, play alts more, delay, auction, craft, farm, play alts more, and keep saying you don't want to raid or do loot runs because you want to discover it first.&nbsp; It's been over a month since I suggested you find yourself a discovery group to go into DM West; since I said that DM West is a variety of fun challenges and that you'd really enjoy it.&nbsp; More than a month.&nbsp; Have you been in there yet?
[right][snapback]84201[/snapback][/right]

Note: There is much here that is directed specifically at Skan, but there is general response in here as well. I am addressing things brought up by mjdoom.

You are absolutely correct. I am part of the problem with Lurkers. I've said that before. I meant to say it again in my big post and it didn't come across right. Several things didn't come across right in that because I was letting it be more stream of conscious. I was being as honest as I could. I wasn't trying to be fair. Emotions generally aren't, I was just trying to let them out.

I have tried 3 times and failed to get a DM West group going. I turned at least one run, maybe two, that would have bowed down before my demands becuase I knew at that time that if I went I was going to ruin fun for the others in the group and that the mood I was in was going to be disastorous for running. There are a few players that want to do this with me as well, and you are right my selfishness has held me and them back. I'm not denying that. I have asked for special treatment on numerous occasions and I have gotten it. I even attempted to go in a mostly public group once but that failed me. So yeah, I have tried. I did get to do two 5 man runs in scartlet start that were discoveries for me and I got a quest reward out of it that was an upgrade that I wasn't expecting. But you are right I probably could have gotten in there and had fun already.

I also apologize to you because I know I'm part of the reason that you left lurkers and I suspected it as well. I've attacked you when you were just trying to be helpful and I didn't always apologize for it. You helped me out a lot. You helped the guild out a lot. Yes this post is being directed mostly at you, but that goes for Arethor and Galreth and Flyndar as well. I don't want to see you or the other leave. I understand it, but I don't like it.

I know I came off as high and mighty. I know that I am a hypocrit with some of the comments I made. I know I was harsh. I'm a flake though. I know that I can't and won't alway participate in the high end content but I'm selfish enough to want you to stick around so that I can do it easier. I kept using the word sacrifice in terms of my fun and that has a connotation of my doing something noble for others. That was a very poor choice of words. Or at least I should have applied it more to what you and mjdoom and Arethor have done for me and others more. I was hot and I was letting it out. I was simply trying to be honest and as you all know and have said there are tons of things going on with these decisions. I was mostly mad and confused by the timing of things and I focused on the one thing that I could think of for being the reason.

I also have personal issues with experts. I have a tendency to subdue myself and completely defer to them without question at time. Then I will get mad at myself for doing that later. I will also do things that I don't realize at the time to prove them wrong and through my actions cause something to fail. It's easy to see when looking back on it that I did something to mess things up but of course when things go wrong at the time I blame the expert. I tag people as experts who demonstrate that they do know more about it than me. Then I let my ego get in the way and mess things up. Or since in my mind they are an expert I put unreasonable expections on them even if I don't express them. Ask Treesh how unfair I've been to her at times simply becasue she knows more about something than I do so therefor in my mind she's and expert on it when she really isn't.

I know that it isn't just about loot, I knew that when I posted and I know it even better now. I touched on the game design being something that will cause me to leave the game. So I attributed all that hostility to that, since I really love the community of people that I play and have played with, and I transfered it unfairly to others. Part of the reason I haven't tried harder on DM West is that I'm a stubborn ass and don't want to do the good or right thing sometimes just so I can be a stubborn contrary ass and pretend I'm not. I'm convinced from what you said that I would love DM West but I don't want to go partly because I know that I should. Does that make any sense no. Is that part of the issues lurkers has, you bet. I hurt the guild as much as anyone who leaves it.

The fact that you three have sacrificed much for the guild also made it harder for me to understand how you could leave it behind at all as well.

Maybe I shouldn't do these apologies publicly but I am.

Skan - I really do want to apologize. I know there are other sources that are bigger than me for you frustrations. I'm only speaking for myself here. I know you have tried to help me out a lot and you have even admitted that you don't always communicate as well as you would like to. I'm sorry that I didn't work with you as much as I could. The first time I played with you on teamspeak was so much better for me and I wish that I would have told you that then. When you type information you are concise and you don't want to leave anything for assumption because you really are just trying to help people and make them enjoy the game. When you are Teamspeak you are more brief because you can get instant feedback on if people need that information or not. I apologize for getting mad at you for you simply being correct and me not wanting to admit it. I apologize for taking advantage of your generosity and wealth of knowledge and then making you feel like #$%& for it. I wish I could be on teamspeak more readily and that I could speak on it easier most of the time. I aplogize for not thanking you enough for working with me and my special needs. I apologize for some of the whispered conversations I had that may have fostered bad feelings about you in others simply because I had a bad day. I apologize for some of the spoken comments I made that helped set Treesh off. You are a great player you are fun person, you have admitted to your short comings and you have worked better with them than I have with mine. I will play with you again on whatever terms you have, I will understand if you simply don't want to deal with me though. I never expected you to play with me on my terms even though you did at times. Have fun with Rylea again, please. Keep being the huge wealth of knowledge that you are for everyone you interact with. Keep making the game a fun place for people. Don't let my selfish words be something that upsets you. Dude you're a good guy you don't deserve some of the #$%& I've thrown your way, have fun with the game and Rylea. Just have fun.

mjdoom - I apologize for the insinuation that it was all about loot. You've done a crapload for me. You've done a crapload for the guild. I thank you for the runs where you shut up for me when I asked you to. I thank you for all the class discussion we've had. I apologize for getting pissy at your for no good reason because I felt you were making Gnolack less valuable because you had no reason to slow play Galreth and plenty of reasons to work his butt up to help others. So you got geared up and skilled up and did what you could to help. You didn't make Gnolack any less needed, you made him more needed for somethings as a matter of fact because things are easier with two warriors around at times. I'm just apologizing for my pettiness that I hide from a lot of people. Gnolack is less valuable than he could be because I don't do things that I can and should with him because I want play my alts and craft. You helped take the load off Darian and me and helped the guild with Galreth. I'm sorry if my words made your decision to do what you need to have fun with him harder on you. Just have fun man.

Arethor - You haven't really said as much in the thread and since I've always talked in game more with you than with Skan or your brother I didn't let personal issues fester with you. I don't have as much to say here. I apologize if anything I said here has hurt you. Like Skan and mjdoom I know this decision wasn't easy for you. I don't want anything I say to cause you any more anguish than you arleady are feeling. It's a game, do what is fun. I've played you more than skan or mjdoom and I've always had a blast. Just have fun man.


But you can't wait around. I know that. I'm not sure lurkers will get there. There are a lot of great people here but there are a lot of us who are casual in one way or another about it. I fear that becuase of the game design and because we try to foster so many play styles that we won't get there because we do all want people to have fun and people only have so much time. I can justifiy staying in a guild just for the people. But yeah, how long can you stay if you aren't having fun. I've admitted that I know I'll be completely leaving the game at some point so that will weaken the group and while I want to see end game content it isn't my driving motivation. But like I said, I really do hope that if schedules work out since you guys do have big alts and have had fun playing them that you can still have fun with those alts in the Lurkers raids. I and other fear that you won't be able to though. That is where some of this, and I'm sure you know it, comes from. I've played with Sommli a couple times since he left. He was at Onyxia one night as well with us. I just hope that you guys can do this too, if, and only if, it is still fun for you. I still yell out loud, "Hey there's Ninuin/Tutelin" about Sword of Doom as well. I still really haven't had a chance to play with him though. I was so happy to read that he is having fun. I don't want to alienate anyone but some of our reactions do.

I think people are just trying to be honest. Take it personal but take it reasonably as well. I brought in non internet life examples before. I've been pissed at co-workers for taking a new job and causing me some issues for whatever reason but it was always because I am selfish. I still keep in touch with all of them and really am happy for them when things get better for them. It doesn't mean I don't have anger. I think it's good we are all just expressing ourselves. It's forum drama. It's real and it's artifical. I hate seeing it but I enjoy getting involved with it at times too. I'm hoping that I don't cause more unnecessary drama with this post like I may have with my last post.

Anyway that is way to much for people to wade through. Just have fun everyone.

[mjdoom]

It's like you stuck around to work toward one step of the solution to the problem, but then when that step wasn't enough of a step, you just left without even trying to help brainstorm solutions for the next step.
[right][snapback]84239[/snapback][/right]

The problem is that the only solution is to get more people. Lurkers don't just appear out of nowhere and so we've had to go looking for other guilds. As I've said this then doesn't feel like it is "Lurkers" as much any more and I don't feel as much of a connection...

- mjdoom