How to win in CTF

[Tal]

Do not underestimate cleanse. Every shaman I know would trade their purge for cleanse in a heartbeat, simply because it's so much better in groups. [right][snapback]81896[/snapback][/right]

I think I inadvertently implied that I didn't value cleanse. This isn't the case. I think a lot of my frustration about the paladin's role in group PvP stems from fighting well organized horde groups. The kind that sheep you when you unsheep a party member. Or re-sheep the person you just unsheeped. ;) I had hoped for more of a role in the battle than buff/cleanse and the occassional heal. This is most certainly a hold over from my PvP experience in beta when paladins were the bane of undead pcs. :)

Eh and what a druid can do? Unless they are a flag carrier, there are few options for them. Ok, they can heal (albeit either slower or less efficient then even paladins), and... Maybe decurse once in a while. They can root, but that usually gets dispelled fast, and the target goes immune fast anyway.[right][snapback]81896[/snapback][/right]

There you are wrong or overestimating the healing power of paladins lemekim. I simply cannot heal (even if I were specc'd and equipped for it) as well as even a feral specc'd druid. Their heals are shorter overall than a paladins and make less of a dent in their mana pool than a paladin's heals. Granted this is offset by a paladin's ability to resurrect players but the title of healing prowess amongst hybrids has to go the druid followed closely by the Shaman.

On priests, fear can be quite useful as both defensive and offensive tool. Silence is useful, but most priests do not go that far down into Shadow tree. Most everything else takes too long or uses too much mana.[right][snapback]81896[/snapback][/right]

Fear by itself makes a priest seem more valuable in PvP than a paladin. Though if the horde group is any good they'll have mobile killing squads searching out the healers in a opposing group. It is usually because the priest has been dropped that paladins step up to the plate and begin healing the flag bearer. This role also I don't have a problem with.

A paladin is an extremely good addition to any group - a plated healer/dispeler that cannot be Crowd-Controled reliably and can at the same time prevent any of his teammates from being Crowd-Controlled?[right][snapback]81896[/snapback][/right]

How can a paladin not be reliably CC'd? I've had battles where I watched from a sheep level because I popped my invulnerability shield only to be resheeped as soon as my bubble ran out. I finally became immune only to be sapped upon unsheeping. :/

Yea, I understand that's not what you want to be, but it's their best role. Perhaps if you reroll a Shaman you will find what you like.
[right][snapback]81896[/snapback][/right]

If its all the same I would appreciate it if you would stop advising me to re-roll. I'm unhappy with the paladin's role in pvp, this is true but the answer to Blizzard's failure to fufill their own description of the class. I will continue to muddle along being a buff/cleanse/healbot that no one fears when I do pvp with Sharanna. In the meantime I've been building my arms/fury warrior to do the scaring. :)

[Chesspiece_face]

The biggest job of the paladin that I ever saw in any instance group was to sit out of fights and rez the other four people when they suicided attacked mobs.  That is, the other four would attack a boss's minion, knowing that they would wipe but would at least reduce the number of mobs by one for the following fight.  (This was before the armor durability penalty.  Stopping this tactic was in fact why the armor durability penalty was implemented).

................................

But then, PvP comes along, and then all those stupid paladins suddenly get their automatic "I win" buttons.  Thinking of smaller group PvP like CTF, the Alliance gets this huge advantage that Horde can't compete with.  One needs healing and in particular dispells to function effectively in a group PvP encounter.  But in PvP, there is no aggro control, so suddenly all the best priest defenses in having tanks and being able to reduce their aggro go away.  In a typical CTF fight in the middle, two rogues and a warrior (Mortal Strike to lower healing by 50% and berserker stanced to be immune to fear) will instantly converge on a priest, killing him or her in 5-8 seconds.  This is something that a paladin will never have to deal with.  First, it doesn't happen because people have just learned not to bother even trying to kill paladins, so paladins live to heal and dispell all they want.  And second, if people did try to kill the paladin, paladins wear plate and can therefore take a lot of punishment, and just when he or she is about to die, suddenly they can noob bubble heal to full and waste the time of the other team.  Meanwhile, of course, the Horde's healers and dispellers are dust, because they don't get to cast noob bubbles of their own.
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I'm not gonna rehash old things and pull the scab off everything that's been said here, but i've been thinking over this the last few days and I feel i need to comment on parts of your statements.

First, in your description of why you don't like paladins you hash out every lacking part of the class. I guarantee you that every one of those issues is being complained about, in great detail, by the paladin players on message boards across the internet. I also guarantee you that those same paladin players aren't coming to the realization that they are "nOOb's" because of the faults in their character design. If you don't like the paladin as a class, fine. I can't argue with that, your points are valid, but i don't see blaming the players because they choose to play a class that has inherant disadvantages. You wouldn't tell an inferno sorc in D2 she was a nOOb because she chose to play that character! I know you wouldn't. in fact i'm pretty sure the great majority of talk on these boards would be congratulatory if that were the case.

Second, regarding the "I win button" you say the alliance has in small scale pvp (CTF). I call BS on that. What the paladin offers to CTF is extremely situational, and as far as i'm concerened the situations where the paladin is using his skills like that is far from optimal. The paladin can bubble and heal a flag carrier - YAY!!! But that only works if the person carrying the flag is slow enough that they stay in range of you. Which means you aren't using a druid as your flag carrier. On the other hand lets look at the Horde bonus - They get another character that can shift into travel form while holding the flag and run off. Add to that Ghost Wolf has a built in "Stealth" feature and you have an additional flag carrier that rivals and possibly surpasses the druid. And in a game where the whole point is to retrieve flags having the overt bonus of additional means of getting those flags is a much greater bonus than the covert bonus of having a character that can protect another character carrying the flag in certain situations. Just on a purely game economics level the horde bonus is greater. Thier extra bonus of a flag carrier isn't dependant on anything other than having a shaman in the match. Wheras the Alliance bonus requires that not only there be a paladin but also another competant player to carry the flag as well as good comunication between the two so that the paladin can stay in range of the carrier.

[Chesspiece_face]

There you are wrong or overestimating the healing power of paladins lemekim. I simply cannot heal (even if I were specc'd and equipped for it) as well as even a feral specc'd druid. Their heals are shorter overall than a paladins and make less of a dent in their mana pool than a paladin's heals. Granted this is offset by a paladin's ability to resurrect players but the title of healing prowess amongst hybrids has to go the druid followed closely by the Shaman.
[right][snapback]81898[/snapback][/right]

As a lvl 41 paladin, right now, i can chain heal 3 times for about 700 health each before i'm OOM. bump that up to about 900 each heal if i have BoL on the target. Now if the person i'm healing is myself those HP go a long way. If the person i'm healing is wearing anything other than plate... not so much.

[lemekim]

There you are wrong or overestimating the healing power of paladins lemekim. I simply cannot heal (even if I were specc'd and equipped for it) as well as even a feral specc'd druid. Their heals are shorter overall than a paladins and make less of a dent in their mana pool than a paladin's heals. Granted this is offset by a paladin's ability to resurrect players but the title of healing prowess amongst hybrids has to go the druid followed closely by the Shaman.
[right][snapback]81902[/snapback][/right]

What is your mana pool? Quite a few paladins I know have over 5k mana, some have 6k mana (compare to average feral druid with 4k mana). These paladins also have a lot of life as well (4k-5k or so), and they use a shield so they take less damage and thus can heal for a long time. So yes, a properly specced a paladin can be a good healer, I see it every day. And druid's heals are not shorter - Healing Touch is 3.5 seconds, and both Regrowth's HoT component and Rejuvenation usually get dispelled fast, making them mana inefficient (Regrowth essentially becomes 1k mana cost 1k heal with 2 second cast time).

I will have to agree that priests make better healers. But they don't have plate or some of neat paladin tricks. =) And I'll stop tempting you to reroll now! I bet Blizzard's fix will be simply updating description rather then fixing class to match the description. (There are a lof of options available to give better melee options for paladins, even going as far as, for example, giving a talent to reduce intellect by 10% while increasing strength and agility by 10%).

As for you getting CCed, in a good group with a decent amount of priests/paladins it should never happen, except maybe for AOE fear. If you get sheeped and stay sheeped, it's the fault of other members in your group. For example, in warsong gulch, lets say you have 2 priests and 2 paladins. Thats 4 dispellers. If any of you get sheeped/mezzed/feared, the other 3 will/have to dispel that person. Of course this only goes for coordinated groups and smart players, we will not go by what happens in pick-up groups =\.

[Brista]

What is your mana pool? Quite a few paladins I know have over 5k mana, some have 6k mana (compare to average feral druid with 4k mana).

I think it's just the huge effect of gear. You're comparing a +Int/Stam paladin with a +Str/Agi Druid. I suspect a +Int/Stam would out-heal a +Str/Agi Priest too

[Artega]

Then make it even.  Let a paladin kill you, so they know what doing damage is like.
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I'm not going to get into whatever has exploded in this thread (sounds like OMG NERF PALLIES to me), but I just wanted to say that just made my day, Quark ^_^

[MongoJerry]

Second, regarding the "I win button" you say the alliance has in small scale pvp (CTF).  I call BS on that.  What the paladin offers to CTF is extremely situational, and as far as i'm concerened the situations where the paladin is using his skills like that is far from optimal.  The paladin can bubble and heal a flag carrier - YAY!!!

I'm wondering if you've played CTF in any organized group, because that's not the case at all. In organized CTF, the main situation is fighting in groups, and it's there where paladins can heal and dispell their teammates and throw up the occational stun on a critical opponent all while being effectively invincible themselves. That's where paladins shine brightly. If it's disorganized CTF where everyone's running randomly, then yeah, I suppose paladins aren't that great, but then again, a disorganized group is going to lose no matter what the group's class composition.

But that only works if the person carrying the flag is slow enough that they stay in range of you.  Which means you aren't using a druid as your flag carrier.

Even druids can be slowed down -- not as easily as other classes, but they can be slowed down. Don't try to pretend to me that it's impossible to escort a druid or for that matter a mage. I play a priest and escort both classes a lot. It helps to be good at positioning (start ahead of them -- not behind them).

On the other hand lets look at the Horde bonus - They get another character that can shift into travel form while holding the flag and run off...

Add to that Ghost Wolf has a built in "Stealth" feature and you have an additional flag carrier that rivals and possibly surpasses the druid.

There's no stealth feature. You're imagining things. Druids can stealth in cat form (but not while carrying the flag), but not shaman. The only bonus shamans get is that they move faster in their travel form than normal running. It's a nice thing if they get out in the open, and shamans make decent flag carriers because of that. However, if you're comparing shamans to druid flag carriers, shamans can't morph through all the snares the way druids can and they can't take the punishment the way druids can by switching to bear form when they get caught and slowed down by opponents.

[Tal]

What is your mana pool? Quite a few paladins I know have over 5k mana, some have 6k mana (compare to average feral druid with 4k mana). These paladins also have a lot of life as well (4k-5k or so), and they use a shield so they take less damage and thus can heal for a long time. So yes, a properly specced a paladin can be a good healer, I see it every day. And druid's heals are not shorter - Healing Touch is 3.5 seconds, and both Regrowth's HoT component and Rejuvenation usually get dispelled fast, making them mana inefficient (Regrowth essentially becomes 1k mana cost 1k heal with 2 second cast time).[right][snapback]81915[/snapback][/right]

I have around 4k mana buffed and 5k life buffed. I have had the luxury of being the only plate wearer in most instances on the Lurker side and have been lucky to get 6 out of the 8 lightforge set. Because of my new role as more support healer in PvP I've been collecting the LF set and looking consistenly for items with + to healing to assist with the fact that I have no talents in the holy tree. Once Shalandrax is capped however Sharanna will probably be shelved for PvP purposes.

I will have to agree that priests make better healers. But they don't have plate or some of neat paladin tricks. =) And I'll stop tempting you to reroll now! I bet Blizzard's fix will be simply updating description rather then fixing class to match the description. (There are a lof of options available to give better melee options for paladins, even going as far as, for example, giving a talent to reduce intellect by 10% while increasing strength and agility by 10%).[right][snapback]81915[/snapback][/right]

Giving paladins at least one dependable (non-talent related) direct damage skill will go a long ways towards pleasing many of us paladins. I've played Paladins all throughout beta and retail from when they were gods to gimped to gods and back to gimped. I'm happy with being an offtank/surprise healer/dispeller and buffer but it would be nice to point to at least one button and say "If I push that someone will get hurt." As it is now I fire up seal of command and say "If I'm lucky I will hurt someone more than they hurt me." ;)

As for you getting CCed, in a good group with a decent amount of priests/paladins it should never happen, except maybe for AOE fear. If you get sheeped and stay sheeped, it's the fault of other members in your group. For example, in warsong gulch, lets say you have 2 priests and 2 paladins. Thats 4 dispellers.  If any of you get sheeped/mezzed/feared, the other 3 will/have to dispel that person. Of course this only goes for coordinated groups and smart players, we will not go by what happens in pick-up groups =\.
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True. I'm just pointing out that in my PvP experiences on Stormrage the Horde have started keeping paladins, druids and priests either dead or cc'd. ;)

[MongoJerry]

True. I'm just pointing out that in my PvP experiences on Stormrage the Horde have started keeping paladins, druids and priests either dead or cc'd. ;)

I've found it interesting that the conventional wisdom, at least on Tichondrius, has shifted somewhat. It used to be that one wanted to sheep healers. Now, the wisdom is to sheep warriors to remove the opponents strong offensive capabilities -- and in particular their ability to mortal strike -- and then "control" the healers by focus firing on them and killing them before they get a chance to be healed. That is, in theory, it works like this:

1. Sheep the warriors
2. Focus fire on the priests
3. Focus fire on squishier dps people -- mages, warlocks, and rogues
4. Kill the paladins
5. Kill the warriors

The main challenge to this tactic, I think is #3 -- getting people to switch to the same target after the opponent's priests are dead. By the time that happens, the fight usually gets chaotic enough that damage gets spread. If so, then the paladins can heal effectively. If the team is able to focus fire enough to kill a target before the paladins can heal, though, then this is a good tactic. It's especially good if your own warrior isn't sheeped, because he or she can mortal strike the group's target and reduce healing on that target by 50%.

[lemekim]

I've found it interesting that the conventional wisdom, at least on Tichondrius, has shifted somewhat.  It used to be that one wanted to sheep healers.  Now, the wisdom is to sheep warriors to remove the opponents strong offensive capabilities -- and in particular their ability to mortal strike -- and then "control" the healers by focus firing on them and killing them before they get a chance to be healed.  That is, in theory, it works like this:

1.  Sheep the warriors
2.  Focus fire on the priests
3.  Focus fire on squishier dps people -- mages, warlocks, and rogues
4.  Kill the paladins
5.  Kill the warriors

The main challenge to this tactic, I think is #3 -- getting people to switch to the same target after the opponent's priests are dead.  By the time that happens, the fight usually gets chaotic enough that damage gets spread.  If so, then the paladins can heal effectively.  If the team is able to focus fire enough to kill a target before the paladins can heal, though, then this is a good tactic.  It's especially good if your own warrior isn't sheeped, because he or she can mortal strike the group's target and reduce healing on that target by 50%.
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The #3 is easy with CTRaid_Assist and some coordination on Vent/TS. But I do have to ask a question. Is that against pubs or organized groups? Because against organized groups, if you try to sheep anyone first, especially against alliance with paladins (thus billions of dispelers), usually they will simply get dispeled, unless there is something I am missing here. Perhaps 2 and 1 should be almost simultaneous, with 2 coming slightly ahead to distract attention, and then 1 while healers are busy trying to keep their healers up?

By the way, the conventional wisdom that I understand was not to sheep the healers, but to sheep the dispelers, and then take out the rest. Although for WSG one must adopt different tactics from what one would use in open field PvP.

[MongoJerry]

By the way, the conventional wisdom that I understand was not to sheep the healers, but to sheep the dispelers, and then take out the rest. Although for WSG one must adopt different tactics from what one would use in open field PvP.

That's actually a good point. I think that this tactic is one far more easily employed by the Alliance. I'm getting some of this secondhand, because after taking 10 days off of playing due to moving and then taking time preparing to teach some classes I've never taught before for this summer, I've come back to playing to find that it's near impossible for a Horde player on Tichondrius to get into a CTF match. I've only done a handfulof matches the last week or so.

But yeah, come to think of it, I think it's more of an Alliance tactic. There's a group on Tichondrius known as the "Exiled Frost Mage Team" -- a group of 10 who always play together and have three frost mages plus a warrior or two a couple of pally's, maybe a priest, etc. I've never actually gone up against them although I've gone up against other Exiled teams, but the reports are that they're scary good. Reportedly, they sheep the opponent's warriors, focus fire on the opponent's priests, and stagger cast frost nova to root the rest of the Horde players in place. With the Horde priest(s) dead or fighting for their lives, the sheep can't be dispelled, and the Horde team gets rolled over. I imagine that the "sheep the warrior" tactic is just people trying to emulate them, but you're right, it doesn't make as much sense for Horde.

[lemekim]

Ah yes it makes sense now =) Given that Horde has only one dispeler, Priest, and given that often you won't see that many priests in a group, it's not too hard to take out the 1-2 priests that are on the Horde team. And with all kinds of frost snares and nova, everyone is slowed or trapped, and Ice Block makes killing mages difficult. Next patch however this group won't be nearly as scary thanks to diminishing returns on all ice spells.

More priests/healers can help against this group. Earthbind/Piercing howl gives you mobility advantage and makes stopping those mages easier. Engineering can help as well (one of the best teams that I know has like 5 engineers on average in their CTF group, so in difficult matches people often get MC hat used on them, bombs, rocket helms, etc). And another point is that you don't necessarily need to kill people in order to disable them. Running healers/mages low on mana can be a better then killing them - then when you focus on the Flag Carrier, they have nothing to help him with. This works well if you are not too far away from your GY, for example if both teams are duking it out in the middle.

[Nefera]

There's no stealth feature.  You're imagining things.  Druids can stealth in cat form (but not while carrying the flag), but not shaman.  The only bonus shamans get is that they move faster in their travel form than normal running.  It's a nice thing if they get out in the open, and shamans make decent flag carriers because of that.  However, if you're comparing shamans to druid flag carriers, shamans can't morph through all the snares the way druids can and they can't take the punishment the way druids can by switching to bear form when they get caught and slowed down by opponents.
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In my experience Shamans are better flag carriers than anyone else. The tactic I've seen used to great effect is running in, dropping a frost restance totem, grabbing the flag, dropping an earthbind totem, shifting to the ghost wolf form, and leaving everyone in their dust. Thinking back it may have been druids that have broken out of snares, and shamans can't shift out of polymorph, but with the distance they can put between you and them is amazing.

While it is not true stealth inthe way the disappear completely, the translucent swift ghost wolf form is rather hard to see in the flowing battlefield, so it is almost as good as stealth at even a little distance.

I'm going to try and get my Paladin into some more matches, but I'm not looking forward to it, maybe just standing in th flag room, making the horde think that they should have brought one more buddy will suffice.

[MongoJerry]

In my experience Shamans are better flag carriers than anyone else.  The tactic I've seen used to great effect is running in, dropping a frost restance totem, grabbing the flag, dropping an earthbind totem, shifting to the ghost wolf form, and leaving everyone in their dust.  Thinking back it may have been druids that have broken out of snares, and shamans can't shift out of polymorph, but with the distance they can put between you and them is amazing. 

Yeah, but... that discussion assumes that everyone on the defensive team was in the flag room, so once the shaman leaves the room, they're free. If the defenders do that, then they're idiots. I assume that most of the defender's team is still between the shaman and his or her home base. The shaman can be tracked down and snared while the defenders in the flag room can mount up and catch up to the shaman from behind (epic mounts really help here). This is the point where druids greatly outshine shamans. Druids can shift out of an amazing variety of snares and thus keep ahead of the people coming up from behind for a while. Plus, once they are being pounded on, druids can shift to bear form and take a massive amount of pounding while the their teammates do what they can to escort them or disrupt the opponents.

Regarding the "stealth" ability of shaman, their names still show up in big bright letters. Those letters are usually what I'm looking for when I'm scanning for enemies.

[Skandranon]

Having been in a great many unsuccessful pickup groups now, I can distill down the four biggest issues that cause a loss in pickup CTF matches. Think of it as the four habits of highly ineffective people.

Oooh, shiny!

This is a game of capture the flag. Even taking into account the issue of contribution points, winning the game is worth more cp than farming all your opponents until diminishing returns hits 0. As such, the sole determination of where you fight should be the location of the flag. Too many pickups, however, simply dismount and attack the first red name they see. Half the team can get distracted chasing a couple of the other team's players while the rest roll the opposition and run away with the flag.

Flag? What flag?

Flags are the most important thing, but most pickups don't seem to get it. If your guy has the flag, you shouldn't be doing anything but helping him get back to base. If the other guy has your flag, you shouldn't be fighting anyone who isn't him or someone actively healing him. If both flags are taken, work on getting your flag get to base and defended, then send out rogues and mages to hunt their flag carrier. Naturally, pickups tend to be aggressively indifferent to the flag carrier, and spend time fighting people nowhere near the flag.

Yee-haw!

Solo cowboy antics are absolutely the worst thing for a CTF team. Not only do people haring off solo not successfully kill anyone, they essentially put their own team a man down for the entire match. Rogues and mages going off on a mission to hunt down the enemy flag carrier is fine. Rogues and mages going off on a mission to hunt kills (and getting two-or-more-on-oned and killed) is quite another. This goes for picking up the flag, too. It doesn't help your team to go off and grab the flag on your own. You will be caught, killed, flag returned, and your team will be a man down for up to thirty seconds. Always, always stick together. If you don't have the flag, all ten should be together until you do get it; then you can split into flag-guarding and flag-hunting teams.

Need more defense!

No...no, you don't. A habit of pickup groups is to assign people to defense right away. The key point to recognize is that your own flag isn't what needs defending. No defense, even of all ten players, can stop someone from getting into your base and taking the flag out: a priest/warrior duo can scatter ten defenders and be out the door with the flag before any of you recover from fear. What really needs defending is their flag, or rather, the player on your team holding their flag. It's more important to have their flag than to have your flag still in your base.

[Artega]

Keep in mind that Shamans are considered Beasts when in ghost wolf form, meaning your Hunters can use Scare Beast on them. Just another way to prevent people from crying "IMBA!" about Shamans :)

[Kevin]

Keep in mind that Shamans are considered Beasts when in ghost wolf form, meaning your Hunters can use Scare Beast on them.  Just another way to prevent people from crying "IMBA!" about Shamans :)
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So can a druid sleep them too? I've been wondering about that for a bit now.

[Artega]

So can a druid sleep them too?  I've been wondering about that for a bit now.
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I'd assume so. They're classified as Beasts while in Ghost Wolf form, so anything that works on Beasts should work on them.

[Brista]

I'd assume so.  They're classified as Beasts while in Ghost Wolf form, so anything that works on Beasts should work on them.
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I've certainly been Hibernated while playing my druid and fighting an opposing druid

[Brista]

Some more random tips and thoughts

The M key

Press M and you get a map of the battlefield with your team members marked on it, this is very useful

The triple sprint

Rogue tactic, I was on the receiving end of this last night and it's bewildering to defend against. You stealth to capture the flag and wait not in the flag room but at the place in the tunnel where the sprint power-up spawns. Just wait there till it spawns, grab it, sprint to the flag, keep going till the power-up wears off, hit Rogue sprint, Preparation then Rogue sprint again. The guy doing it last night has a Shadowmelded NE Priest covering his line of escape too!

Aspect of the Wild

This is a Hunter skill that buffs group nature resistance. It's very good against elemental shamans: Chain Lightning and Earthshock are nature although Druid Moonfire isn't. Entangling Roots is though. Rogue poisons, Warrior's Thunderclap and Hunter's Serpent Stings are also Nature. I don't know whether it affects Scare Beasts and Hibernate

The base layout

Facing the base there is a tunnel in the middle and a ramp to your right. Go up the ramp to get to the first floor of the base, a good spot to shoot defenders from or heal attackers or to jump down from unexpectedly. Further along this road is a house where flag carriers sometimes hide.

Go down the tunnel and take the right exit just before the flag room to get onto the path to the roof. This is where an opposition flag carrier will hide 90% of the time. This level is above the level you reach by taking the ramp

Hidden flag carriers

If the other side has your flag and you can't see them they're almost certainly on the roof. If not they're either at the little hut at the end of the road from the ramp, on the map edge somewhere, in one of the little houses in the midfield or in their own flag room