How to win in CTF

[Rinnhart]

All paladins are noobs.  If they weren't a noob, they would pick a more challenging class to play.  One must understand that this is coming from a Horde perspective.  I hear these kinds of comments frequently while playing:  "He's level 40, let him go."  "He's a paladin."  "Oh, kill him then."  It's like Horde players find killing paladins a duty just to make sure that paladins know what it is like.  So many paladins must be shocked and amazed when death actually happens to them.
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Replace "Paladin" with "Shaman" as Pantalaimon said.

More than anything, I think that it simply comes down to the Paladin and Shaman classes being targets of a kind of xenophobia. They're the Enemy embodied.

Honestly, Jerry, did you ever think of "all paladins [as] noobs" back when you played Alliance?

[Rinnhart]

Lots of blanket comments. We'll skip to the list.

Just throwing it out there, in general from hardest to easiest,

Priest - lack of DPS, and very responsible for sucess of group

Lack of DPS? Sure. Right. I'll say I respect a good priest, but I've met my share of l33t shad0w preests.

Warrior - no heals, plus tanking is tough

Tanking's like riding a bike. Once you learn to do it, hopefully well, it's just a matter of getting back into the groove. Warriors also do a fricken ton of damage.

Mage - lack of HP

Mages- my god, their talent trees are awesome. Rogues and mages, best trees in the game. Beautiful for the varied methods of murdering people. A simple goal, a single purpose, three trees to explore it. In massed fighting, they're delivering death from a distance or mage-bombing the enemy as part of a charge. In small group combat, they're able to effect the overall flow with snares, roots, stun effects, and sheer devastation.

Rogue - not much armor, considering you have to close to melee

Not much armor, but they're not going to be going for the full life warriors. The rogue is looking for the target's that's going to die instantly after that opener. They're seeking out the mages, the priests, the occasional harder class at low life. They bring discord and domination by taking out the most vulnerable targets and escaping. And unless they get unlucky and get spotted, there's not much you can realistically do to ward off that first damning blow.

Warlock - a lot of options, gotta watch the shards

Warlocks are, honestly, better than mages. Damn good AEs, very nice DDs, brutal DOTs and debuffs. Soulshards are an interesting problem, especially in the fast-paced environment of BGs. Like most of the classes, Warlocks have a bad case of "how does this get improved without breaking it?"

Druid - Shift right and you can do anything

A good Druid is a god. The true jack-of-all-trades class. Goddamn moonfire.

Shaman - Watch your mana and you can do anything

Can't say much on shamans beyond that they need to watch their HP, too. They die quickly. A softer target than paladins, but extremely dangerous (if you're not a fricken hunter).

Hunter - pet attack, auto shoot, rinse and repeat with no downtime

Hunters are brutal. All the range of mages, with far more damage and far more staying power. Warsong, a good hunter truly shines. Alterac... the faceless melee. Never been hit by that mana draining shot, in Alterac, which surprises me. DOTs and Debuffs into the fray there tend to be lethal. I think most of the people playing there are just around for the brawl. I know I am.

Pally - Bless, bubble, heal, if you are not a complete noob you are a solid unexciting performer
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Remarkably accurate after that little episode. I'll say that my paladin's shield is a useful tool, little more. Not many of us who started as paladins expected their endgame role to be what it is. Look at the boards if you want evidence of that. "Run and hide?" The best use of the shield in Alterac is to slam up a hill through enemy fire. Warsong and elsewhere? It's so I can heal and keep fighting. It's not for running. Twelve seconds isn't enough time to run. But it's enough time to heal and pick which ugly face I'd like a swing at.

[Chesspiece_face]

Remarkably accurate after that little episode. I'll say that my paladin's shield is a useful tool, little more. Not many of us who started as paladins expected their endgame role to be what it is. Look at the boards if you want evidence of that. "Run and hide?" The best use of the shield in Alterac is to slam up a hill through enemy fire. Warsong and elsewhere? It's so I can heal and keep fighting. It's not for running. Twelve seconds isn't enough time to run. But it's enough time to heal and pick which ugly face I'd like a swing at.
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bingo. The simple way to tell a noob paladin from a non noob one isn't that they use their bubble it's How they use the bubble.

[oldmandennis]

Well, my brief comments were not supposed to be an in depth look at each class. They were supposed to be a quick reason why I put each class in each spot on the list. For the most part you seemed to agree with me about the relative difficulty of each class, but your comments were unclear.

In AV I do see a lot of pallys Bubble on their way in, then stun and AOE once or twice, then bubble and run out.

I guess I'm mostly agreeing with MJ that 1) there are a lot of n00b pallys drawn by the fact that 2) PVE and Dualing, Pallys are relativly easy to play. I do agree with you guys that in a tough instance, a good pally (and there are a few out there) can make a big difference.

[Rinnhart]

Well, my brief comments were not supposed to be an in depth look at each class.  They were supposed to be a quick reason why I put each class in each spot on the list.  For the most part you seemed to agree with me about the relative difficulty of each class, but your comments were unclear.

In AV I do see a lot of pallys Bubble on their way in, then stun and AOE once or twice, then bubble and run out.

I guess I'm mostly agreeing with MJ that 1) there are a lot of n00b pallys drawn by the fact that 2) PVE and Dualing, Pallys are relativly easy to play.  I do agree with you guys that in a tough instance, a good pally (and there are a few out there) can make a big difference.
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Up through around the late 40s, Paladins are a safe class. Easy? No easier than any other. This is not a difficult game. 50+, solo, against PVE content, they're no better than any other class due to limited utility and extremely low dps.

Make it a group situation, PVE, of any size, and it's honestly the players, not the classes.

PvP, and everything's different. A well-geared, well-played paladin can still get his teeth kicked in by an idiot with a rusty dagger and cracked sash if the RNG doesn't roll well for him. The durability of a paladin doesn't matter because players hit far harder than monsters and use stuns, interrupts, and burst damage abilities intelligently.

In group PvP, our lack of ranged damage and inability to close distances quickly or slow opponents (unique amongst the melee centric classes) become glaring weaknesses. So, we become healers or fruitlessly thrash against overwhelming inadequacies.

[MongoJerry]

Honestly, Jerry, did you ever think of "all paladins [as] noobs" back when you played Alliance?

Actually, yes. Not as intensely, but yes, I've never liked the paladin as a class or the typical player who came to play them. Yes, of course, there are good players who do decide to play the class, but the general average paladin, no, I never liked them. When I played alliance, I always felt the paladin as more of a liability than a help. In the typical 5-man group situation -- say, warrior, priest, mage, rogue, and paladin -- the paladin doesn't tank, the paladin can't dps very well, and the paladin typically doesn't heal very well. Oh, sure, they get their licks in and cast an important heal once in a while or whatever. But, never in months of playing did I ever have an experience where I said, "*Whew!* I'm glad we had a paladin along!"

Mostly, I invited paladins into groups simply because it was so impossible to find a second priest or druid to act as the secondary healer. The groups where we did find a second priest or druid, though, were always much stronger. The best most efficient 5-man group I ever played in was a warrior, 2 mage, 2 priest combination that blew though BRD at the level 55 cap more than 50 times that I went on personally and more than 150 times all told. The people playing the part of the mages and priests rotated, but the tactics were the same. Whenever we had a paladin take over one of the priest's spots, though, it hamstrung the group and we ended up having to go much slower and be less aggressive, because the paladins just couldn't take on any role well.

The biggest job of the paladin that I ever saw in any instance group was to sit out of fights and rez the other four people when they suicided attacked mobs. That is, the other four would attack a boss's minion, knowing that they would wipe but would at least reduce the number of mobs by one for the following fight. (This was before the armor durability penalty. Stopping this tactic was in fact why the armor durability penalty was implemented).

The natural question is then what do I think of shaman? The answer is, I think they're great, and I would love to have them in my groups and would intentionally invite one in many cases over a second priest. The difference between shamans and paladins may simply be player attitude, but whatever the difference is, it's real and it matters. I think the typical paladin sees him or herself wearing plate and being able to wield big weapons, so he or she thinks of themselves as primarily being out front banging on things. However, shamans in general seem to know that their class is a support class. They can do decent dps, but shamans tend to focus more on supporting the group using the right totems at the right time, doing things like interrupting spellcasters, and healing far more often than typical paladins. Hillary's comment that, "Play with Sharanna, Triarius, Megwynne, Katrin, or Altrius at your back when you're a healer and then tell me how noobish they are. They'll save a priests ass - this priest's ass, at least - every time" made me laugh, because I'm confident that if she played with another priest, druid, or yes, shaman, she'd find her ass saved a lot more often by them than by a typical paladin.

But then, PvP comes along, and then all those stupid paladins suddenly get their automatic "I win" buttons. Thinking of smaller group PvP like CTF, the Alliance gets this huge advantage that Horde can't compete with. One needs healing and in particular dispells to function effectively in a group PvP encounter. But in PvP, there is no aggro control, so suddenly all the best priest defenses in having tanks and being able to reduce their aggro go away. In a typical CTF fight in the middle, two rogues and a warrior (Mortal Strike to lower healing by 50% and berserker stanced to be immune to fear) will instantly converge on a priest, killing him or her in 5-8 seconds. This is something that a paladin will never have to deal with. First, it doesn't happen because people have just learned not to bother even trying to kill paladins, so paladins live to heal and dispell all they want. And second, if people did try to kill the paladin, paladins wear plate and can therefore take a lot of punishment, and just when he or she is about to die, suddenly they can noob bubble heal to full and waste the time of the other team. Meanwhile, of course, the Horde's healers and dispellers are dust, because they don't get to cast noob bubbles of their own.

The Horde side can't go without priests or else they couldn't dispell so many crowd control and damage spells, and yet at the same time, the Horde has to expend all kinds of energy protecting very fragile party members. In fact, now that I think about it, I don't know why the Alliance side would bring a priest to a CTF match. A party of three paladins (plus a druid for both healing and flag capturing) would cover all the healing and dispells needed and yet would be practically invulnerable to attack. All the Alliance dps could be focused on the Horde healers without any worry about defending squishy healers of their own. The only challenge the Alliance side would have would be to convince the paladins that they really aren't dps machines and that they should step back and play the role of priest-in-plate.

[Brista]

Actually, yes.  Not as intensely, but yes, I've never liked the paladin as a class or the typical player who came to play them.  Yes, of course, there are good players who do decide to play the class, but the general average paladin, no, I never liked them.

Seems to me that hybrids are naturally more geared towards soloing tough content(tank - dps - healer all in one) and specialist classes are geared towards parties. So judging a paladin on their group role is failing to see the whole picture

The biggest job of the paladin that I ever saw in any instance group was to sit out of fights and rez the other four people when they suicided attacked mobs.

He he, more flamebait, think you're going to get some sharp replies to that one ;)

An advantage of a hybrid is in grouping you fill up the necessary roles much easier. I don't remember ever being in a group with more than one priest unless I'm playing a priest myself. It's much more common for us pickup players to have mage mage warlock or something and be looking for 2 more. A hybrid is a godsend because it means we can have a viable group so much more easily. If the mage mage warlock group recruits a priest then they still need a tank but if the recruit a paladin then either a tank or a healer will do. So while hybrids may not be good for optimal groups they go a long way towards promoting viable groups

Your main is Horde. I'm just wondering if you have experience of well-played paladins (and no I don't have either, but I like my pally and I can certainly see potential for a very useful group role)

You also didn't mention buffs. Paladin + Priest = 2 compatible sets of good buffs, Priest + Priest = PW: Fortitude

The difference between shamans and paladins may simply be player attitude, but whatever the difference is, it's real and it matters.

I'm very surprised to hear you say this. I find shaman often quite frustrating to play with if I'm on my druid or my priest

Typical pubbie shaman is enhancement windfury shock searing totem zerg monster. They only look to do damage. Their mana pool is empty 10 seconds into the fight. If my priest is there and I run out of mana I can guarantee the shaman will be empty. Shamans are great for groups that blitz through instances to the last boss then wipe and ask "why didn't you heal me?"

I particularly dislike Searing Totem when used by bad players. If they park it in the wrong place it will shoot adds pulling otherwise unaggroed adds into the brawl. It also shoots downwards which sometimes causes a vast train of mobs coming the long way around the dungeon to eat us

Pre-30 all shammies use Rockbiter which makes them huge aggro stealers

The main pro of shammies over pallies when played by idiots is that if you have someone who is simply using their hybrid as a dps monster then shammies are better suited to the role

However, shamans in general seem to know that their class is a support class. 

We've had different experiences. I've played with tons of shamans who think their job is up front banging on things, in fact it's an overwhelming majority

because I'm confident that if she played with another priest, druid, or yes, shaman, she'd find her ass saved a lot more often by them than by a typical paladin.

I don't know those players in-game but give me a good pally over a bad priest druid or shaman any day

But then, PvP comes along, and then all those stupid paladins suddenly get their automatic "I win" buttons.

Actually they're not "I win" buttons they're "I don't lose" buttons. Generally if I die to a pally it's because I'm so pre-occupied with getting them down that I get sloppy. A class with no move speed buffs and nothing that works at over 10 yards is not able to win in pvp unless the opponent gets reckless (short of potion and engineering tricks)

I think actually that's where a lot of the animosity comes from. I do think Rinnhart is correct that calling paladins noobs is essentially xenophobia. But another aspect is that most classes fighting one on one resolve the fight in under a minute. A paladin can make the fight stretch out for ages which actually hurts both players in terms of efficiency over time. So that's the newbie quality - to play a class that is very hard to kill in a game where killing brings rewards and death is trivial.

Thinking of smaller group PvP like CTF, the Alliance gets this huge advantage that Horde can't compete with.

Utter utter bull

Horde win 80% of matches

Besides give me dispels + purges over dispels + dispels if the team is good

First, it doesn't happen because people have just learned not to bother even trying to kill paladins, so paladins live to heal and dispell all they want.  And second, if people did try to kill the paladin, paladins wear plate and can therefore take a lot of punishment, and just when he or she is about to die, suddenly they can noob bubble heal to full and waste the time of the other team.

Actually all it takes is persistence. Once the paladin runs out of tricks they're toast. I find paladins not especially difficult to kill in ctf unless someone else is healing them. Your example of 2 rogues and a warrior would absolutely splatter a paladin, probably as fast they kill a priest unless the paladin was lucky and got his bubble off between stuns

Their strengths are balanced pretty well by the shaman's ctf strengths, notably the awesome snares although it does sound to me like your experiences are with more organised teams than the ones I generally face

Even so I think this point is more about naive tactics by players facing paladins plus a certain frustration with trying to play a priest with players who all run off and leave you to die :)

[Hillary]

Hillary's comment that, "Play with Sharanna, Triarius, Megwynne, Katrin, or Altrius at your back when you're a healer and then tell me how noobish they are. They'll save a priests ass - this priest's ass, at least - every time" made me laugh, because I'm confident that if she played with another priest, druid, or yes, shaman, she'd find her ass saved a lot more often by them than by a typical paladin.

You say this as if I haven't. My main right now is an undead mage, and I still stand by what I said. I prefer my pallys, slow dps and all.

*A well placed divine intervention
*Blessing of Salvation
*Consecrate to draw aggro OFF of me

For starters.

I've grouped with some other great priests - Flyndar, Vilatra, Onan. I've grouped with druids - Hykim. And I still think a pally is your best back up healer. They take hits, their bag of tricks is bottomless, and if played well, they can be the most integral part of an entire group.

That being said, I honestly don't think this argument's going anywhere. I stand by my opinion, because yes, I *have* played with every class.

Until you've played a paladin for more than 40 levels, or played with a capped one that knows what he's doing, I don't feel you honestly have a whole heck of a lot of right to bash the class. But mebbe that's just me. I hear the pally bashing and I hear the night elf hunter bashing and it makes me shake my head. Simply because a class/race is popular, doesn't mean they're sucktastic.

My 50 cents.

[Rinnhart]

Thanks, Brista, that's exactly what I wanted to say without the language I wanted to use.

[Tal]

With all due respect Mongo you are full of complete and utter crap. You played Alliance in Beta with paladins who didn't get talents until right before beta. What's more the class got a complete overhaul to its skills at the same time. I was capped at Beta end and spent my remaining time in Beta re-learning how to play my class. Fastforward to retail and your decision to go Horde PvP. Since that time your only experience with Paladins has been as advesaries. I believe in this case you are letting your animosity to one of the hardest to kill classes cloud your judgement. I also don't think you have ever made the effort to play a paladin to a sufficient level to see exactly how challenging the class can be to play well. And you don't care to. Instead you would rather make knee-jerk generalizations and insult a player class that you as WoW admin should be fostering. Its sickening.

You say that paladins don't have any role in a group. I call bull#$%&. In a party I can play tank (and believe me I take a helluva beating before I go down). I heal the squishy members of the group and play interceptor when a mob goes after my healers. I add DPS when the RNG is in my favor. I buff, I dispell, and I provide auras. When things go south I can prevent a full wipe of the group. I can put a melee-proof shield around a party member so a heal can land.

In group PvP I heal and dispell more than I fight. I escort the flag bearer, if things go well I can be there to intercept an enemy flag bearer for the DPS'ers to take down. I can do much more than take up space in a party.

I won't argue that Paladins attract more of the n00bs than most classes but Shaman aren't terribly far behind those numbers.

[MongoJerry]

He he, more flamebait, think you're going to get some sharp replies to that one

I'm not flamebaiting at all. In six months of intense beta playing, that was my experience, and I played with some people who were considered excellent paladin players.

Typical pubbie shaman is enhancement windfury shock searing totem zerg monster. They only look to do damage. Their mana pool is empty 10 seconds into the fight. If my priest is there and I run out of mana I can guarantee the shaman will be empty. Shamans are great for groups that blitz through instances to the last boss then wipe and ask "why didn't you heal me?"

Totally different experience for me, and I'm talking about hundreds of pubbie shaman, since for a long time, that's all I had to work with. I wonder if many people's thoughts here are biased because they're so used to working with the same few good paladins and haven't experienced the normal pubbie paladin very much.

We've had different experiences. I've played with tons of shamans who think their job is up front banging on things, in fact it's an overwhelming majority
I don't know those players in-game but give me a good pally over a bad priest druid or shaman any day

That's the thing. Sure, I'll take a good *player* over a bad *player* anyday. But give me a bad priest over a bad paladin or give me a good priest over a good paladin anyday.

Utter utter bull

Horde win 80% of matches

Besides give me dispels + purges over dispels + dispels if the team is good

Now, you're stretching into bull territory. Alliance has the advantage hands down, but luckily the typical paladin doesn't realize how powerful they can be, so the matches turn out even. The times when I'm fighting against good paladins always swing battles sharply toward the Alliance. Regarding purge, that's a complete joke. What can shamans purge? A priest and mage shield maybe. But you could just as easily "purge" them by causing damage do them. Dispels are far more powerful -- and the more dispellers you have, the less capable the other team is of removing those dispellers from action.

Instead you would rather make knee-jerk generalizations and insult a player class that you as WoW admin should be fostering. Its sickening.

You're taking my comments more personally than they should be, and keep in mind that the discussion started when you asked why I used the term "noob bubble," which is a common WoW euphamism. Instead of passing it off as, "Oh, that's MongoJerry. He plays Horde on a PvP server," you asked me why I called it that. So, I told you. (For that matter, how can an ability that removes all debuffs, lets you survive a barrage of 40+ people unscathed, lets you run unimpeded against all possible stuns and snares, and lets you cast your own spells while your opponent stands there helpless be called anything other than a "noob bubble?") My experience playing intensively with paladins for six months in the beta plus my experience playing against them in retail has led me to have a very low opinion of the average paladin. I may be a WoW admin, but I'm still allowed to hold opinions of my own, and I feel that my opinion on the typical paladin player is based on a large enough sample size to be valid. However, I have recently begun playing Alliance more consistently again, so maybe I will get to experience the joy of playing with a good paladin and form a new opinion of the usefulness and skillfulness of a typical paladin. I'm not holding my breath, though.

[Treesh]

My experience playing intensively with paladins for six months in the beta plus my experience playing against them in retail has led me to have a very low opinion of the average paladin. 
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But what you aren't getting Mongo is that beta paladins and retail paladins are so different and you just won't see the all differences if all you're doing is PvPing against them.

[Skandranon]

I may be a WoW admin, but I'm still allowed to hold opinions of my own
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But you aren't allowed to express them in a manner which is pissing off every last paladin player (and a ton of players who haven't played paladins) in the forum. Is it possible that you don't realize you're doing that?

[Rinnhart]

What's not responded to is what matters.

[MongoJerry]

What's not responded to is what matters.

I've chosen not to respond, because it's obviously not constructive. I have stated my opinions about paladins in general, and it's taken as referring to certain paladins in particular with whom I've never played. I'm asked why I have those opinions, and I explain why I have them, and those explainations are considered flamebaiting. My opinions are real and have not changed, but it's very clear that expressing those opinions is not constructive to the community, so I will go ahead and sign off on the discussion of paladins. My main regret is that this thread which started off talking about CTF strategies got hijacked so far.

[Brista]

I think "noob bubble" goes into the same category as other gamer vocabulary such as "gay" and "retarded". While they may be in common usage, it's simply better not to use such words or phrases because this kind of thread derailment is so likely to happen. In fact, because it should be obvious that it's an instant argument starter, it even looks like you're trying to provoke a flame war when you use them

Fwiw, I don't think this was your intention Jerry but I'd suggest you drop the phrase from your vocabulary on these boards unless you want repeats of this discussion. Not that the perspectives haven't been interesting - they have - but we don't need to go through them again every time paladins come up in discussion

Peace B)

[MongoJerry]

Fwiw, I don't think this was your intention Jerry but I'd suggest you drop the phrase from your vocabulary on these boards unless you want repeats of this discussion. Not that the perspectives haven't been interesting - they have - but we don't need to go through them again every time paladins come up in discussion

Peace  B)

Peace. I'll do what I can. The problem is that Divine Shield (I had to doublecheck the official name on Thotbott) is to me one of the most broken and unbalanced skills in the game. There's no way for an opponent to counter it and there's little downside to casting it (yes, I know, -50% attack speed). A paladin can even cast it while silenced or charmed, for goodness sakes. The nearest thing to it is a mage's Ice Block, but at least there the mage can't move or do any skills of his or her own. I hate it when a paladin charges toward a group of 40+ opposing players, Divine Shields, does his or her weak aoe attack, and runs back unscathed. Yes, that's a useless tactic (except if all you want to do is rack up "honorable kills"), but the fact that a person can do it at all shows that something is very wrong. I mean, if DS would just let 10% of damage in, then that would be at least be something. Or if spell costs were doubled or healing effects were halved while the shield were up, that'd be cool. But right now, all DS does is protect... people who may or may not be skilled. (I'm trying!)

Oh, boy. While doing laundry today, I finally formulated why it was that I prefered shamans over paladins in 5-man parties. It's a nice bit of analysis, but I'm afraid it might be taken wrongly in the current discussion. And anyway, I said that I would stop talking about paladins, and I'm already crossing that line. So, I'll hold off on that at least for a couple days.

[oldmandennis]

First off, I'd like to point out that people are using the same language about Shammys as they are pallys. Phrases like "overwhelming majority" and "typical pubbie". Brista, you didn't even bother with the fig leaf of "well, a good shammy is better then a bad druid" or any such stuff.

While I'm not offended, if you guys are going to go after MJ for phrasing his posts like that, then you need to edit your own.

I'd like to offer a little bit of explanation for all my fellow windfury "zergers" out there. Half a spec in Enhance is THE way to go for shammys while leveling. It has outstanding efficiency. Many many many pubbies of all classes play instances like they are soloing. And in a 5 man, shaman melee is a significant source of damage. But if they are having problems with rockbaiter taking aggro from the tank, or blowing all their mana on shocks that don't shutdown casters or snare runners, then they are noobs.

[Rinnhart]

Peace.  I'll do what I can.  The problem is that Divine Shield (I had to doublecheck the official name on Thotbott) is to me one of the most broken and unbalanced skills in the game.  There's no way for an opponent to counter it and there's little downside to casting it (yes, I know, -50% attack speed).

Lasts twelve seconds, has a cool of 5 minutes. Of course, those are details and extremely minor.

A paladin can even cast it while silenced or charmed, for goodness sakes.  The nearest thing to it is a mage's Ice Block, but at least there the mage can't move or do any skills of his or her own.

That's because mages are actually dangerous and twelve seconds is long enough for them to actually do something besides maybe heal or run away.

I hate it when a paladin charges toward a group of 40+ opposing players, Divine Shields, does his or her weak aoe attack, and runs back unscathed.  Yes, that's a useless tactic (except if all you want to do is rack up "honorable kills"), but the fact that a person can do it at all shows that something is very wrong.

You hate it?

There are so many better things to hate or be annoyed at than an, as you said, useless tactic. I say so what? I'm more worried about being picked off by a hunter or a rogue than whether or not some moron is gonna run out, moon us, and run away.

  I mean, if DS would just let 10% of damage in, then that would be at least be something.  Or if spell costs were doubled or healing effects were halved while the shield were up, that'd be cool. 

The more you rant on about Divine Shield the more it has the trappings of class envy. Too many daggers in the lumbar, Jerry? Stun locked a couple times too many?

All a paladin can do while shielded is heal. We can't kill anyone. Hell, that 50% attack speed increase means we can barely interrupt bandaging if someone's stupid enough to do it in reach.

But right now, all DS does is protect... people who may or may not be skilled.  (I'm trying!)

Don't worry, Jerry, we narcissists need to stick together. You act superior and experienced and I'll mock you and stew with imagined insight as to why you're ignoring everyone else's Good Points.

I'm getting my fix. Are you?

Oh, boy.  While doing laundry today, I finally formulated why it was that I prefered shamans over paladins in 5-man parties.  It's a nice bit of analysis, but I'm afraid it might be taken wrongly in the current discussion.  And anyway, I said that I would stop talking about paladins, and I'm already crossing that line.  So, I'll hold off on that at least for a couple days.
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#$%& or get off the pot, as my dad was fond of quoting. All pulling this "I know but I'll tell you later" bit is doing is pissing us off more. Personally, I'll just assume it was an intentional slight at the rest of us and resent you more.

You're correct, however, in saying that paladins are the weakest of the four healing classes. Our "ability" to tank is often given as a reason for our general lack of useful, offensive utility. And, yes, we can take hits better than shamans, priests, or druids, but not so well as to really replace warriors. And who needs a second tank when you have a good warrior?

You did, however, choose a hell of a way to continue that discussion. Might as well have started an abortion debate by quoting the Bible and then calling everyone who disagreed "baby murderers."

Also:

I've chosen not to respond, because it's obviously not constructive. I have stated my opinions about paladins in general, and it's taken as referring to certain paladins in particular with whom I've never played. I'm asked why I have those opinions, and I explain why I have them, and those explainations are considered flamebaiting. My opinions are real and have not changed, but it's very clear that expressing those opinions is not constructive to the community, so I will go ahead and sign off on the discussion of paladins. My main regret is that this thread which started off talking about CTF strategies got hijacked so far.

I call bull#$%&. You're loving the rise, you attention-whore, just as you'll love the rise when you reveal your wisdom regarding the superiority of shamans.

[Tal]

I've always maintained that Blizzard can take away my Divine shield when they give me the damage mitigation to make up for it. :)

Otherwise I have recommended making it be as powerful as a Priest's bubble. That should still last long enough for me to get a heal off in emergencies. It probably shouldn't still be purgeable unless they up either the damage we do or the damage we absorb in contrast to Shamans. Offensive hybrid versus defensive hybrid.