This Thing You Call Aggro.

[Darian]

Pedantry aside, a hunter pulling an add off a healer and then soloing it is CC.
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I have to object to that statement. CC is taking a mob out of the picture so you can basically ignore it until it's his turn to die. If you're off-tanking it, you're not ignoring it.

Not that there aren't times when someone needs to off-tank a mob so the rest of the party can focus on one target, of course. But if you're off-tanking, you're reducing your party from five members to four for the purposes of dealing with that one mob. A mage who's got a sheep off to the side can still blast the main target. A priest with a shackle, a 'lock with a seduce, a rogue who's sapped something... same thing. Even a priest with MC working can still be contributing damage to the main target by using their minion -- and at the same time they're letting the minion take as much damage as they can draw. Off-tanks are busy dealing with a mob other than the main target.

If you consider off-tanking CC, then a five-man group encountering five mobs and each member picking one to fight is "crowd control." Not a good use of the term.

[Treesh]

I have to object to that statement.  CC is taking a mob out of the picture so you can basically ignore it until it's his turn to die.  If you're off-tanking it, you're not ignoring it.
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I agree with this for most cases. Of course, I can think of a good exception off the top of my head. ;)

The first time I went into BRD, we had Gnolack, Galreth, Sharanna, Mirajj, and Aleri. That's right. Three hard shells. Definitely not Aleri's normal group composition. :D We got to the elementals and each hard shell took their own target to spread out the elementals so the AoE pulses wouldn't stack on top of each other and really blast people. I would consider that a form of crowd control, but not a hunter just off-tanking something. The difference (in my mind anyway) is that by doing it this way, we seriously reduced the amount of damage the entire group took. Instead of all three of my hardshells each getting pummeled by three AoEs stacking, which would take a ton of healing, it was three hardshells each just getting hit by one apiece. Massive reduction in damage taken for the entire group and since the pally healed herself, that made it feel like crowd control to the priest. ;)

This is of course a different definition than what you described (damage reduction for the entire group so no increase in healing for the priest vs no damage lost on the primary target), but I mainly responded just so I could mention the time when Aleri was the squishiest member in the group. :D So very rare in her case.

[savaughn]

Get kicked? Not for main target. Lectured. SS on main target isn't vital either way--with the exception of 40 man raid target with only 5 debuff slots. Raid leader might kick you for that if you do it too often after being asked not to.

We both agree on illogical behaviour of SS on CC'able targets, especially ones meant to be re-CC'ed. That's kick-worthy, no?
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Serpent Sting or any other DoT used to break CC is dumb, yes. Doing ANYTHING to break CC is dumb, SS is in no way unique in this situation.

Suggesting that you should not use SS in any other instance is idiotic. SS on the main target should be mandatory. SS on any non-CC'd target should similarly be set. If you pull an encounter, CC is, in any reasonable group, placed at the very beginning and doesn't change substantially. The mage sheeps something and keeps re-sheeping the exact same thing over and over. Same thing with any CC that can be re-applied. Sap, pull, apply remaining CC, and that leaves you with your tank group. You're out of CC at that point. Those guys aren't going to magically become CC'd, they need to be killed as quickly as possible.

The only reason not to DoT them would be if you didn't want to pull aggro off your tank. A quick FD if something moves eliminates that possibility. A hunter doing a Serpent Sting round is the safest AoE imaginable in a party and lets him continue to support the focus fire effort at the same time.

That said, Drasca, yes, you really need to start a Hunter. Your understanding of how disengage, FD, and traps work is completely wrong.

[Tal]

Massive reduction in damage taken for the entire group and since the pally healed herself, that made it feel like crowd control to the priest. ;)
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And I would have survived both encounters if it weren't for those damn kids and that meddlin' dog!















Well...if my heal hadn't been interrupted. ;)

[savaughn]

I agree with this for most cases.  Of course, I can think of a good exception off the top of my head. ;)
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I don't there is an exception, per se. Off tanking is off tanking. Something is taking damage other than the main tank. The only real difference is that a pet heals rapidly after combat if it doesn't die, so using a pet can save the healer mana if the mob isn't going to kill it in time.

The real risk with using the pet is that you need to remember to put the pet back onto the main /assist target, or you're disbursing your focused fire. Sending a pet and leaving it means you kill your main target slower, which means the party takes more overall damage. This counteracts any possible benefit the off-tanking would have had except in strange instances (like a pet off-tanking an AoE mob like in your example).

[Treesh]

I don't there is an exception, per se.  Off tanking is off tanking.  Something is taking damage other than the main tank.  The only real difference is that a pet heals rapidly after combat if it doesn't die, so using a pet can save the healer mana if the mob isn't going to kill it in time.

The real risk with using the pet is that you need to remember to put the pet back onto the main /assist target, or you're disbursing your focused fire.  Sending a pet and leaving it means you kill your main target slower, which means the party takes more overall damage.  This counteracts any possible benefit the off-tanking would have had except in strange instances (like a pet off-tanking an AoE mob like in your example).
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I wasn't saying it wasn't off-tanking. I was just saying there was an exception (or at least I considered it an exception) where off-tanking can be considered crowd control. It is still off-tanking though. And it wasn't a hunter doing the off-tanking nor the hunter's pet in my example. It was three hard shells tanking with the hunter and hunter's pet as DPS.

[Mirajj]

I wasn't saying it wasn't off-tanking.  I was just saying there was an exception (or at least I considered it an exception) where off-tanking can be considered crowd control.  It is still off-tanking though.  And it wasn't a hunter doing the off-tanking nor the hunter's pet in my example.  It was three hard shells tanking with the hunter and hunter's pet as DPS.
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That was a very fun fight to be in/watch. I am a big fan of overall tactics, and I liked how things built up to steamroll the last elemental. Good times. =)

[Brista]

That's dangerously noobish, wouldn't you agree?

I think this is the point at which I invoke Godwin's Law (MMO Variant) :rolleyes:

[Drasca]

Serpent Sting or any other DoT used to break CC is dumb, yes.  Doing ANYTHING to break CC is dumb, SS is in no way unique in this situation.[right][snapback]79019[/snapback][/right]

SS is a solo skill and PvP, not a group one. Do you see experienced locks using curse of agony on all targets willy-nilly? No. There are more important debuffs, and better use of the debuff slot.

The only reason not to DoT

Scroll up and read about the Debuff limit.

You're out of CC at that point.  Those guys aren't going to magically become CC'd, they need to be killed as quickly as possible

A hunter doing a Serpent Sting round is the safest AoE imaginable in a party and lets him continue to support the focus fire effort at the same time.

Not when there's other targets that can be CC'ed. Poly'ed targets don't always stay that way, and sometimes need to be engaged. If all other targets are dot'ed, that removes CC potential.

There is a need to poly non-intial CC targets mid-battle. Don't mess with it.

That said, Drasca, yes, you really need to start a Hunter.  Your understanding of how disengage, FD, and traps work is completely wrong.

Be specific, because Hunters can and will FD / freeze trap at someone's feet if given the chance. They have CC skills that don't involve dots, aggro, or off-tanking.

[Quark]

Now I'm confused. I saw a Hunter using Serpent Sting last night in a raid on Scholomance (*gasp* 8 debuff limit). That hunter happened to be one of the few sane people in the entire raid.

[savaughn]

Now I'm confused.  I saw a Hunter using Serpent Sting last night in a raid on Scholomance (*gasp* 8 debuff limit).  That hunter happened to be one of the few sane people in the entire raid.
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*BANG*

*BANG BANG*

*BANG BANG BANG BANG*

Ok. Now, it's official. I've put up a sign.






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[Drasca]

Ok.  Now, it's official.  I've put up a sign.
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Knock on wood.