This Thing You Call Aggro.

[savaughn]

Here's a test:  two people needed.  One person aggroes the mob.  Second person steps within aggro radius, then backs out of aggro radius (but not so far as to invoke the evade mode return of the mob if you're not in an instance).

First person dies.  Does the mob go after the second?  If it does, just being in the proximity of the monster (not first) is sufficient to put you on the hate list, like you said.
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Done this. The answer is: depends.

Once a mob has someone in their hate list, that mob does not seem to check aggro radius. It effectively goes blind. You have to do something to enter the hate list at this point - AoE, direct attack, etc. There are certain events that cause a mob to turn its aggro check back on however - running out of things in its hate list definitely qualifies.

Some sample scenarios.
- Walked up to a person fighting a mob, walked away, person died, mob evaded and returned to its original position.
- Person aggroed mob and ran away. Mob ran THROUGH me. Person dropped aggro (feign death). Mob returned to initial position.
- Person aggro'd mob. I entered threat range. Person died (turning on aggro check). Mob saw me and ran to me.
- I aggro'ed mob (so I'm on the threat list), person hit mob (pulling aggro), I backed way away and out of threat range, person dropped aggro, mob ran to me.

The aggro radius check seems to be a one time scan when the threat list empties. If there are no available targets, the mob then enters evade mode which turns off the aggro check. I'm guessing we've all had an evading mob run through us on its way back to it's leash location, indicative of this behavior.

If a mob aggros to a mage in the original scenario and the mage hasn't thrown a spell at that mob, I'm guessing it was because of an AoE burst (frost nova?) that put him in the threat list or because the mage made the pull, which puts him on the threat list of everyone in the pull or because the mob cleared its threat list while the mage was within aggro range (i.e. the tank pulled and died).

[Thawwing Light]

I have no idea, it just came up in conversation as we tried to figure out how to manage the last fight. In a sense though max health isn't important because it doesn't do anything for healing efficiency

We had 3 goes at the last fight (mage, hunter, warrior, shaman, rogue). One go with the Warrior tanking which didn't go well, one with the kitty tanking which went a lot better since we had me healing kitty and the shaman healing everyone else, then we worked out a sophisticated plan of switching aggro between cat and warrior which we spectacularly failed to implement

The warrior had 1700 armour (and no shield option!), the kitty 2700
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I'm right at that level, and I have to say :( that you've got a Warrior that poor. I'm level 46, and my armor for the last few levels has hovered around 2200 without shield, and 3700 with... and instances means shield goes on. I don't buy gear from the AH, my set is all drops. I hate to say it... but, well, bad Warrior! No healers for you!

As to the pet... 2700 isn't bad, being only slightly lower than the average Shaman offtank, albiet without a shield to block with and a weapon to parry with. These are also important factors... 2700 is going to be better than, say, having the Hunter themselves offtank it, and I know I personally find growl capable of competing with anything I dish out for single target hate. In this regard, a pet would make a great tank/offtank on a single target, as it can't take the damage of multiple targets, but it can certainly keep the hate.

[Quark]

Just had an interesting Scholo run right now. The biggest problem with raids is that players, even the best, have bad habits because they can get away with it. Well we shouldn't have gotten away with some of the stuff that happened tonight.

We managed to get a huge chunk of the exploding zombies with the room's mini-boss (our priest was too anxious to pull). I couldn't see where Galreth was, so I said "Alright, I'm tanking Lorekeeper." A Healstone, heal pot, 2 evasions later Lorekeeper actually died before some of the others (they were being kited). Sommli helped out with his own aggro steal and evasion, and the druid in our party did a nice job of covering us.

I really couldn't tell who was attacking what in the chaos, but it just proved that a Rogue can hold aggro if he wants to. Strangely it's not the first time I've tanked in that very room (did it versus Gandling once). So while we can talk about how to do perfect play in this thread, keep in mind that when things go wrong, a style change might be needed. Those who didn't want to get attacked must decide "tank's down, do I sacrifice myself?"

You'll find the supposed sacrifice often doesn't end in death if you do it right, and the rest of the group can handle themselves too :)

[Drasca]

That's not a warlock thing. That's solely dependent on the player.
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Though players do have this option, let's look at the classes and what they're effective at. I believe Warlocks are in a position natural to dissecting the entire battlefield.

Rogue: Their combo points are lost when losing targets (bug). Reguardless, combo points only apply toward one target at a time. They do a lot pre-battle, in and out of stealth, will stun lock a target or two at a time, or silence with kicks, effectively shutting down a caster or stun-lockable target. If there's a runner (to casters or away from the battle), they'll stun, finish, or crippling poison them, but that takes a few hits as it doesn't usually proc immediately. They're single target specialists, focusing a lot of power and moves at one target time. Top three rogue qualities seem to be damage, interrupts, and personal survival, but all focused on one target.

Targets engaged: 1.5, one main one occassionally sapped/stunned


Warrior: They make and hold down the line, controlling several enemies through watching their rage, skill timers, and their healer's mana bar. They've got a lot of survival, melee range buff and debuff techniques and interrupts. Lot of survival tricks, but they're focused on staying alive. Warriors bring order to the battle, they're the hub at which everything revolves. Their role is focused at holding the line and damage mitigation becoming eye of a hurricane.

Targets engaged: All melee range, and occasional runner.


Mage: Single target, one poly, counterspell, AoE, remove curse. Occassionally detect magic if the party leader asks for it. Focus on 2 targets at any given time. One to pull, and keep silenced or poly'ed, and a dps target or group target for aoe. Removes curses if very attentive, or reads chat mid battle after yelled at. Generally try not to aggro most targets, and FF with the main assist's target. Mages have wonderful single ranged and aoe damage, but only focuses on the main target single or group, plus a sheeped target.

Targets engaged: 2.5 Damage, CC, curse removal.


Priest: Healing, dispels party, and less often MC/Shackle duties. Generally doesn't pay attention to mobs at all.

Targets engaged: 4.5 Mostly the MT warrior. Very rarely the enemy with dispel/mc/shackle and mind blast if there's nothing else. Doesn't usually pay attention to own health bar.

Druid:Usually ends up playing healer role i.e. priest, but may engage single target, multi target (non aoe) through moonfire, tanking, stealth and damage roles. However, as dots render cc options unusable and uses a debuff slot, moonfire spam is recommended to targets already engaged and when debuff slots aren't conserved (PvP cp harvesting comes to mind). When in cat form, druids will track humanoids. How often cat form becomes used is dependent on the party and instance. Curse removal also available, and not to be forgotten with an attentive druid or party leader.

Targets engaged: Party + 1. Humanoid patrol tracking in cat form.


Shaman: Totem, shock timing, and mana management is key. Earth shock interrupts casting, totems can do mob or party appropriate buffs, or interfere with what the party is trying to achieve. Windfury is great for warriors, but stops rogue crippling poison. Agility is better for a warrior/rogue mix. Fire Nova totems are good for trash mobs, but interfere with CC options like freeze trap, poly, charm and gouge. Their shocks are aggro heavy, which is a blessing or a curse. If aggro is too early, mobs might be on the shaman too fast, if too late it'll pop a CC. Done just right, shocks will steal aggro off priests, frost shock slow and finish runners, and spellcast silence pull when appropriate. All totems and shocks are very mana costly and come on timers. Shamans have powerful fighting juice, but not much of it over time. They play an off-healing role in general. They will heal, but only if designated such toward certain or all targets at the start or if primary healer falls.

Targets engaged: 1 or Party. Single or AoE damage or Party healing.


Paladin: Can't judge. I've neither played as or alongside paladins long enough to assess their skills. I can only imagine they tank, and play the healer/buffer role shamans, and with tricks unique to paladins like Divine intervention and aura of concentration.


Hunters: Ideally, a hunter keeps track of many targets on their radar, priority targets with hunter's mark and is always watchful of incoming mobs. He will ping your minimap and shout when there are incoming. Freeze trap may or may not be used in varying forms of success. Feign death best used in opening manuevers next to main tank. Do not FD near healers, otherwise healers may become next main target. Also note, hunters should not aggro steal onto themselves. Best not to venom sting dot everything either.

Mid-battle, best in back lines nearish healers or other casters. Good perspective on entire battle.

Targets engaged: 3.5 Single target, Freeze trapped, cat target, marked/tracked targets, and sTarget wing clipped enemies.


Warlock: Oh boy. Warlocks are in a position to engage everything.

Pet ability targets (when demon pet out):
-Voidwalker Aggro theft on runners and off tanking
-Succubus Charm/Mezzing on pre-established targets, and charm intercept on mobs approaching healers.
-Felhunter spell lock pull / interrupt
-Felhunter devour magic on enemy buffs and allies magic debuffs every 10 seconds (8 second cooldown)
-Demon attack target

Fear-lock if applicable

Banish & Enslaved target if applicable

Curses (instant) on everything nailed down by warriors and rogues.

Corruption (instant) on all non CC-able targets.

In order to maximize utility without stepping on toes, a warlock must switch around targets checking first which targets are being CC'ed, and which aren't. Which are being engaged, which targets are coming out of CC, which are approaching the healer, and match curses/dots/cc/other skills to the appropriate target. Sapped and sheeped targets may be cursed once battle has commenced (though at risk to warlock).

Dots draw aggro slowly (delayed +3 seconds before Corruption activates and Doom takes a full minute before major aggro happens), but interfere with CC options and curses have low static aggro. Pets are always a +1 target to draw attention to.

My druid friend Grendel is used to multiple forms of engagement, and uses a lot of his hotbar buttons as a result... but when I got him to enjoy a warlock to a moderate level 30's or so. He noted and teased me, "Why didn't you warn me you use up all your interface buttons as a warlock. Absolutely all of them."

Targets Engaged: All. Single, Multi, AoE, debuff, and party.

All those targets kept tracked of and engaged. Warlock can easily become the most complicated class with so many skills and targets types.

However, because warlock needs to constantly check all targets to assign appropriate use of their skills, he's in a better position to assess the battle. The only unnatural checkup is watching the healer's mana. Honestly, my warlock don't even have to watch his own mana bars most of the time. They'll simply life tap and life drain when low.

Other classes, they have their areas of focus but their skills do not lead toward watching all targets. Warlock skills lend toward spreading attention between mutiple targets in solo and group play in their class careers.

This awareness is not player based created. Warlock skills lend themselves towards watching the entirety of the battle, controlling its flow, and functioning as a living fighting organism sharing aggro, health, mana, damage, and powers between the warlock and his pet. The warlock is an advanced tactical class and has a lot of utility options to approach a problem.

For example: if a runner approaches a priest, I may fear, charm, aggro steal to myself, aggro steal with pet with melee, attack single or multi target aoe skills, banish/enslave, attack to kill, snare (curse of exhaustion, if I have it), or debuff (with a zillion variants) all depending on the situation. What to do what to do...

Direct damage, Delayed damage, backloaded damage dots, enhance magic damage, crits, channeled lightsabre drains, AoE. I'll pull a rabbit out of my WL genie hat too.

[savaughn]

Though players do have this option, let's look at the classes and what they're effective at. I believe Warlocks are in a position natural to dissecting the entire battlefield.
<snip>
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So, this is situational, but not entirely accurate. Essentially, the main tank and anyone who has a DoT or AoE will engage the entire group. Pets can be used to hold a second target but doing so sacrifices the advantages of focused fire. I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm for your class, but let me hold up a hunter for comparison.

Both Warlocks and Hunters will DoT each target.
Both Warlocks and Hunters will send in their pet and have spells to maintain it.
Both Warlocks and Hunters have AoE attacks.
Both Warlocks and Hunters have crowd control abilities (traps vs. fear/seduce).
Both Warlocks and Hunters are expected to contribute to direct focus fire if they aren't doing something else.

Now, a Warlock will spend more time DoTing and has more flexible CC and the Hunter is likely to spend more time contributing to focused fire, but that doesn't change the fact that they both deal with the entire set. Other classes have similar methods of engaging the entire battle. Of everyone, the main tank does more to cover the entire set of mobs than anyone else.

[Quark]

I call bull. Just because your class plays better with you switching targets all the time, doesn't mean Warlocks are better at watching a battle. There's plenty of dumb warlocks just as there is any other class.

Rogue: Their combo points are lost when losing targets (bug).

Not a bug. Design choice. Rogues must focus on one target. Stuff like getting feared used to lose combo points, since it deselects the target. Now you only lose combo points when deliberately selecting another target. Ironically this introduced the bug that dead mobs have combo points still on them, so you can Slice and Dice them.

Anyway, a Rogue selects one target until it's dead (or something went wrong). If a situation says I should check on a mob's debuffs and my target's not dead, I'll throw an early finishing move then check. But I know I'm better at watching the field than many. Sap, Sheep, Seduce, etc, all have visual effects. Learn just what makes a visual effect - and other people really could stand to learn just what a blinded mob acts like - and you don't need to select a target to see how it's doing.

[Kevin]

You lump all the pets together as things that make you pay more attention, but most warlocks have one pet out during a battle, so you lose much of that "I'm doing this all the time".

You then say that warlocks pay attention because of applying DoT's but other classes who can DoT really shouldn't. If it has less than 8 debuffs on it and isn't CC'd other DoT classes need to do the same thing your warlock does. Do I want my DoT on there now (this includes priests with SW:P) or at all and which one? Sure they don't have as many choices but they do the same checks.

I'm not going to deny that the warlock lends itself to battle awareness in a lot of ways. I think I will concede that they have more roles and skills that ask them to do this than any other class as well. But it is still more about the player behind the keyboard than the class. I've played with clueless warlocks, just like clueless warriors and priests and hunters and and and...

Small nit: Druids also have 2 forms of CC that you ignored. Sure roots is only usable outside and that means most instances rule it out, but it is probably the most difficult form of CC to use well because things can attack out of it. And while hibernate is only good for beasts which are sheepable, that doesn't mean the druid won't be doing that as well. They can, and will, both be used depending on the group, even if the druid is primary healer.

[Treesh]

Rogue: <snip>
Targets engaged: 1.5, one main one occassionally sapped/stunned

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One sapped, one (or two) gouged/blinded, two being pounded on with blade flurry, one kicked (granted this is just a short one and doesn't really count as a whole another target). This is partly how Eth, Taranna, and Shalandrax manged to come out of a massive fight where our tank tried to get us to run. Eth and Taranna also manage to chain fight like thet frequently because of innervate, nature's swiftness, roots, and hibernate. Play a rogue and you'll see we really aren't just 1.5 target classes. In fact, I suggest that everyone try out every class and see just what tricks they have that come in extremely handy when Bad Things happen. Every class has more subtle tricks than the ones that everyone sees in instances. The more you learn about other classes, the better you can play in a group. But I also believe that the more characters, the better so you can take that suggestion with a grain of salt. ;)

Priest: Healing, dispels party, and less often MC/Shackle duties. Generally doesn't pay attention to mobs at all.

If the priest doesn't pay attention to mobs, it's a poor priest. If you watch the fight rather than solely health bars, it's easier to heal. You can see incoming patrols and see who's going to be hit first, you can monitor the critters health bars and if you see a critter who has a tendency to run start to get low, you can start the mind blast before he runs and kill him. You watch who has aggro or is about to get hit. You watch to see if sheep/saps/charms/<insert CC here> breaks early. You watch to see if one of your AoErs is going to unload and will need extra healing.

Shaman: Totem, shock timing, and mana management is key. Earth shock interrupts casting, totems can do mob or party appropriate buffs, or interfere with what the party is trying to achieve. Windfury is great for warriors, but stops rogue crippling poison. Agility is better for a warrior/rogue mix. Fire Nova totems are good for trash mobs, but interfere with CC options like freeze trap, poly, charm and gouge. Their shocks are aggro heavy, which is a blessing or a curse. If aggro is too early, mobs might be on the shaman too fast, if too late it'll pop a CC. Done just right, shocks will steal aggro off priests, frost shock slow and finish runners, and spellcast silence pull when appropriate. All totems and shocks are very mana costly and come on timers. Shamans have powerful fighting juice, but not much of it over time. They play an off-healing role in general. They will heal, but only if designated such toward certain or all targets at the start or if primary healer falls.

How does windfury stop rogue crippling poison? Is that a bug? Or are you talking about helping mitigate enemy crippling poison? Edit: Foolish me. Must not have gotten enough sleep. The whole replace a temporary weapon buff deal So use something besides Windfury all the time or have the rogue place crippling on the off-hand. It still gets applied plenty easily on the off-hand too. Or at least it does for Eth.

Not all shocks are aggro heavy. Just earth shock.

You also forgot about stoneclaw for protecting squishies, chain lightning (for use away from CC mobs). There are also magma totems rather than fire nova. We also have to watch if the mobs (either adds or also at the start of a fight) have a tendency to sleep people or silence or whatever other debuff is used frequently in a fight - poison cleansing totem, disease cleansing totem, tremor totem, and grounding totem. This incoming mob likes to blast blizzard? Frost resist totem. These fire elementals have a heavy AoE fire damage aura that pulses? Fire resistance. Did these critters just put up a fire shield? Purge.

Shaman are most effective when they pay attention to exactly what types of critters, in what numbers and where they are attacking the party. If we just concentrate on party and ignore mobs, we're crippling ourselves and our party.

He noted and teased me, "Why didn't you warn me you use up all your interface buttons as a warlock. Absolutely all of them."

Try playing a shaman if you want to use up all your interface buttons. ;)

[Gurnsey]

How does windfury stop rogue crippling poison?  Is that a bug? Or are you talking about helping mitigate enemy crippling poison? Edit: Foolish me. Must not have gotten enough sleep.  The whole replace a temporary weapon buff deal  So use something besides Windfury all the time or have the rogue place crippling on the off-hand.  It still gets applied plenty easily on the off-hand too.  Or at least it does for Eth.

Not having direct experience with this, but I think Rogues would be happy with Windfury on the main and the poison of choice on the off-hand. I agree that it is more useful to Warriors, though, as it increases rage generation.

Not all shocks are aggro heavy.  Just earth shock.

Well, Earth Shock is extra aggro-heavy. Frost Shock is front-loaded instant damage - either used right at the beginning of a fight pretty much insures that our warrior won't be able to pull aggro from me. Flame Shock is half instant, half DoT and works pretty well early in a fight (though I am also the main healer in our group so I don't use it too often). I tend to use rank 1 Earth Shock to silence, highest-rank Frost Shock to slow and do damage to single runners (Earthbind is better for multiple mobs I think), and Flame Shock for damage when interruption or slowing is not needed.

You also forgot about stoneclaw for protecting squishies, chain lightning (for use away from CC mobs).  There are also magma totems rather than fire nova.  We also have to watch if the mobs (either adds or also at the start of a fight) have a tendency to sleep people or silence or whatever other debuff is used frequently in a fight - poison cleansing totem, disease cleansing totem, tremor totem, and grounding totem.  This incoming mob likes to blast blizzard?  Frost resist totem.  These fire elementals have a heavy AoE fire damage aura that pulses?  Fire resistance.  Did these critters just put up a fire shield?  Purge. 

I agree that the totems are very situational and a good shaman will change them accordingly and not feel locked down to one 'best' set for everything. I would dispute the practicality of Stoneclaw for protecting anyone, except in solo and possibly duo situations - the aggro generated by the Stoneclaw is weak and unlikely to break anything harder than the 'I've seen you' aggro. Purge is a very useful tool - I've been surprised at how many things get Purged that we didn't even know were on our enemies - though it generates a fair amount of hate itself.

Shaman are most effective when they pay attention to exactly what types of critters, in what numbers and where they are attacking the party.  If we just concentrate on party and ignore mobs, we're crippling ourselves and our party.
Try playing a shaman if you want to use up all your interface buttons.  ;)
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Here's a recent creenshot of my button setup. I need to add some more buttons :blush: I'm not great with hotkeys, so I like to have them all out and available, and I don't have everything out that I'd like. I find that I use nearly every button here surprisingly regularly.

[KiloVictor]

Though players do have this option, let's look at the classes and what they're effective at. I believe Warlocks are in a position natural to dissecting the entire battlefield.

I agree that warlocks have a good vantage point for the overall battle, and that playing the warlock well requires you to have excellent awareness of what's going on. But it's not solely the purview of the warlock. I find that my priest requires the same level of attention to the ebb and flow of battle, and because she's usually positioned in the back ranks, she has a good vantage point to do so.

Similarly the hunter's back rank position lends itself well to surveying the battlefield, and playing that class well also requires good situational awareness. Hunters can perform incredibly good CC by chain trapping and offtanking with their pets, but they have to be very aware of what else is going on to pull it off effectively.

[stuff snipped]

Warlock skills lend toward spreading attention between mutiple targets in solo and group play in their class careers.
...
Warlock skills lend themselves towards watching the entirety of the battle, controlling its flow, and functioning as a living fighting organism sharing aggro, health, mana, damage, and powers between the warlock and his pet.
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A tangent here, but I think this gets at the eureka moment I had when playing the warlock: it's really about dying slowly.

You have two green bars and two blue bars to manage between you and your pet, and the objective in any encounter is to come out of it with at least two slivers of green, and hopefully more besides.

You have a bunch of skills to remove green and blue from mobs (DoTs, DD spells, life drains, mana drains), add to your own green bar (siphon life, drain life, healthstone, death coil, bandages, and potions), add to your blue bar (drain mana, life tap, dark pact, or perhaps potions), and prop up your pet's green bar (health funnel, bandages). Plus your pet has a variety of different skills to deploy, depending on the pet you have out at the moment. And each of these has implications for aggro, and you have to learn about that as you use them growing up.

When you roll it all up, it's a lot to juggle, probably more so than any other class. But it is really fun to come out of an encounter with potions cooling down, healthstone cooling down, freshly bandaged debuff fading, and a pile of corpses at your feet. :)

Kv

[KiloVictor]

Not having direct experience with this, but I think Rogues would be happy with Windfury on the main and the poison of choice on the off-hand.&nbsp; I agree that it is more useful to Warriors, though, as it increases rage generation.[right][snapback]78541[/snapback][/right]

And Hunters -- does wonders for crit rate and DPS. Our regular Hunter groupmate gets so happy to see a Shammy with Grace of Air that we get treated to a PB&J-Time dance party after most every encounter. :)

[Skandranon]

Though players do have this option, let's look at the classes and what they're effective at. I believe Warlocks are in a position natural to dissecting the entire battlefield.
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Hm. I wouldn't agree with this statement. Your concept is that the class which needs to split its attention most and engage the greatest number of targets is best suited to seeing the battlefield and the situation as a whole. I'd say the opposite - that classes that need to split their attention so much have the least amount of extra time to devote to watching the battle unfold.

Warlocks have so much to do that their time is invariably better spent hitting a button or checking on one of their targets for a debuff icon. They engage all the targets but do so in a limited fashion, as there's always another target to check or another spell to cast from either their own bar or the pet's. Healers are fixed on the party's life bars, tanks have to hold aggro on targets and rogues are too close to the action.

I would say that the classes which require the least constant attention are best suited to taking time to look around and grasp the situation. I'd say hunters are some of the best at this: they have good range and only engage one target at a time with damage. With distracting shot, disengage and feign death, they are also one of the only classes with the ability to modulate threat both up and down, which represents unparalleled control over what's attacking who. However, I'd say that mages are fairly decent at it, too. After checking on the sheeped target, all a mage has to do is cast on the main target, which generally freezes the mage in place for some period of time. I frequently whirl my camera angle around in a circle while I'm waiting for something to cast, which lets me take in what every mob and member of the party's doing.

That said, I do think it's primarily a player thing. Class attributes can help or hinder, but attentive players are attentive players no matter what class they're playing.

[Treesh]

Frost Shock is front-loaded instant damage - either used right at the beginning of a fight pretty much insures that our warrior won't be able to pull aggro from me.&nbsp;
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That's why you don't use it immediately all the time, but it's still not a comparatively high aggro spell. I don't have many problems giving up aggro if I use frost shock early in a fight. With Mogo and Marn duoing, we spread aggro around a lot. When all you have is off-tanks and no real main tank, you do what you can. ;) Better everyone a little hurt than one or more people dead. When I frost shock, either the pet or the hunter can pull aggro from me. A warrior certainly can if those two can.

Stoneclaw is actually better now than it used to be. Until the patch that put totems higher up on the hate list, it was basically pointless except for solo play. I've actually used stoneclaw to keep things off the AoEing mage now. Granted, it's only for a couple of seconds because it's not an upgraded stoneclaw totem, but it has made the difference between a dead mage and a live one.

Edit: Yeah, you do seem to be missing some buttons in your screenshot. Mogo uses 57 buttons on a regular basis. Some of the stuff she has on the buttons I could probaby do without, but just having all those different totems really sucks down the available buttons. My rogue Etheramwen, on the other hand, barely uses more than 30 and a lot of those buttons are just for the different poisons she carries around so I don't have to open my inventory to apply them. :)

[mjdoom]

We managed to get a huge chunk of the exploding zombies with the room's mini-boss (our priest was too anxious to pull).&nbsp; I couldn't see where Galreth was, so I said "Alright, I'm tanking Lorekeeper."&nbsp; A Healstone, heal pot, 2 evasions later Lorekeeper actually died before some of the others (they were being kited).&nbsp; Sommli helped out with his own aggro steal and evasion, and the druid in our party did a nice job of covering us.

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And somehow the only person that Polkelt killed was me :-/ I don't understand how it happend (I ran and stole aggro from Ramala when Polkelt was probably already about half dead when I finally found him in the chaos). My only guess is that somehow the priest couldn't heal me in the chaos and I wasn't being healed. Of all of my deaths this one was the most frustrating because the pull was terrible and with any healing (I'm assuming I didn't get any; don't stare at health bars as a warrior :)) I thought I should have lived; oh well.

Moral of the story is that overpowered groups really have one thing to fear in instances and that is bad pulls. A full raid group can overpower things like an untimely CC break pretty off but a bad pull is a good way to wipe even the best equipped raid.

- mjdoom

[Gurnsey]

And Hunters -- does wonders for crit rate and DPS. Our regular Hunter groupmate gets so happy to see a Shammy with Grace of Air that we get treated to a PB&J-Time dance party after most every encounter. :)
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I think we are talking about two different totems - the old Air-Totem argument of Windfury vs. Grace of Air.

Grace of Air is an Agility buff - this helps Rogues' and Hunters' attack power, all melee and ranged crit rates, and block and dodge rates. I don't know if it helps with Hit rate or Parry rate.

Windfury is a main-weapon buff - a 20% chance to have an extra swing whenever you swing, with added attack power. This helps melee damage as well as warrior Rage generation. This works on all melee weapons including (?) Druid's cat-claws and bear-paws and pet-attacks, but would not help a hunter at all in ranged combat, and overwrites main-weapon (but not off-weapon) temp-buffs like sharpening/weighting stones and poisons.

So I'd say hunter's would be far from exstatic from a Windfury totem, and a Rogue might be happy with either, depening on how much poison they want to use.

My regular group is Shaman-Warrior-Druid. None of us get a terrific benefit from Agility (it's my lowest stat), but I've tried using both Air totems in our group, and for our situation, Windfury is generally better. As usual, other Air totems (besides Windwall, useless) are appropriate in some situations - in particular, boss-mobs who debuff, Mana-Burners, and Fear casters generally demand Grounding.

I know this is deviating further and further from the topic, but I am enjoying both the original discussion and this shaman-thread.

[mjdoom]

If the priest doesn't pay attention to mobs, it's a poor priest.&nbsp; If you watch the fight rather than solely health bars, it's easier to heal.&nbsp; You can see incoming patrols and see who's going to be hit first, you can monitor the critters health bars and if you see a critter who has a tendency to run start to get low, you can start the mind blast before he runs and kill him.&nbsp; You watch who has aggro or is about to get hit.&nbsp; You watch to see if sheep/saps/charms/<insert CC here> breaks early.&nbsp; You watch to see if one of your AoErs is going to unload and will need extra healing.

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This is very true. Especially in lower number groups the priest's dps (haha) is a part of killing mobs even if it is rarely more than SW:P and wand shots. I learned early on about the importance of targetting SW:P and not breaking CC. I did it a few times, I learned. As the priest the first thing I ask when joining any raid is MT/MA? I need to know the MT so I know who I'm healing and I like to know the MA so that when I have a chance I can add a bit of damage without doing anything foolish. I do stare at health bars most of the time but I also have awareness of where the mobs are and what is going on as well. I like to think that to be an effective priest you have to understand the aggro situation of every member of your party/raid and how it changes over time. A few simple examples are understanding how rogue aggro works (they generally lose it pretty quickly after taking it so renew is good enough) or understanding the breaking points of when mobs are dying to mage aoe. Also, though it's uses are limited (both Strat and Scholo will use it though) shackle is another form of CC and the priest has to handle that while healing. That means attention on your entire group as well as at least two mobs (primary target and shackle).

I mentioned above that it helps if you understand aggro for the entire group. I think this is a very key point. Once you get a better feel for how aggro goes and how battles go it makes a big difference. I still remember times in BRD where I understood the group's aggro situation well enough that I could devote more time to engaging mobs than healing my party. I almost don't even have to look at health bars to heal because I just knew what was happening inherently. Any good priest will eventually hit that point where they are only looking at the health bars for verification of what they know is happening or in case something goes wrong (someone steals aggro where they shouldn't have, adds, etc.)

I'd also like to throw in one completely different point here. I get heckled for it often (and I bring it on myself) but I like to break out priesttank from time to time. If a situation arises where a greater heal or something pull some massive aggro and it is late in the fight I will occassionally just decide to tank the offended mob instead of try to give it back. With a single target left I can just heal myself instead of the MT (and become the MT in the process). If there are only two mobs left I can let the party finish up on the one that is locked down and then they can come kill the mob that is eating me. It requires an understanding of the situation and the mobs involved but I know when I can handle a mob and not to bother calling "on me" to divert the attention of the dps (and thus potentially still have 2 mobs running around where they could have dropped the other one in 2 or 3 seconds). Calling for help as a priest (understandably) diverts attention of most of the dps classes and can break up focus fire very quickly. Also, these peeled mobs can sometimes be harder to transfer back over to the tank. For that reason I don't call for help when I don't need it so the dps can finish the first target first and then focus fire on the mob who wants a priest snack. With Inner Fire up I can take hits fairly well :)

- mjdoom

[Hillary]

I'd also like to throw in one completely different point here.&nbsp; I get heckled for it often (and I bring it on myself) but I like to break out priesttank from time to time.&nbsp; If a situation arises where a greater heal or something pull some massive aggro and it is late in the fight I will occassionally just decide to tank the offended mob instead of try to give it back.&nbsp;

Yeah, I give you crap for that. I can't help it. You're just so . . . short.

[Gurnsey]

Stoneclaw is actually better now than it used to be.&nbsp; Until the patch that put totems higher up on the hate list, it was basically pointless except for solo play.&nbsp; I've actually used stoneclaw to keep things off the AoEing mage now.&nbsp; Granted, it's only for a couple of seconds because it's not an upgraded stoneclaw totem, but it has made the difference between a dead mage and a live one.

Hmmm, will have to try it out now in a group situation. Several seconds of not being pounded-on can really make a difference - though I'm not sure how much of a difference the Improved talent is (at work and can't look up numbers).

Edit: Yeah, you do seem to be missing some buttons in your screenshot.&nbsp; Mogo uses 57 buttons on a regular basis.&nbsp; Some of the stuff she has on the buttons I could probaby do without, but just having all those different totems really sucks down the available buttons.&nbsp; My rogue Etheramwen, on the other hand, barely uses more than 30 and a lot of those buttons are just for the different poisons she carries around so I don't have to open my inventory to apply them.&nbsp; :)
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I think I'm at 54, including the 12 buttons at the bottom. Being an alchemist, I often have a load of different potions as well, which adds buttons.

[oldmandennis]

My regular group is Shaman-Warrior-Druid.&nbsp; None of us get a terrific benefit from Agility (it's my lowest stat), but I've tried using both Air totems in our group, and for our situation, Windfury is generally better.

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I usually use grace of air. It gives me 5% to crit, and with flurry that is almost an extra hit, plus the damage of the crit. Also, the bonus to Parry and Dodge. The key thing is that those bonuses apply to both you and the warrior, where as only the warrior benefits from the windfury totem. And it overwrites his sharpening stone.

[Treesh]

This works on all melee weapons including (?) Druid's cat-claws and bear-paws and pet-attacks,
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It definitely does not affect hunter pet's attacks, unless this is something that changed in 1.4.2. What you may have seen was a hunter who talented to frenzy, which is really cool btw. :) With minor testing on one druid a while ago (Swirly or Nashkara, I may have to borrow you again to retest), it doesn't work on druids when they are shapeshifted either.