This Thing You Call Aggro.

[Kevin]

Darian's rule:  if you ain't healin', he ain't peelin' unless he has nothing better to do, or for this particular mob you are critical to success.  Absolutely nothing is going to get in the way of my primary job: keeping my healer vertical.
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Well my healer tells me she only heals me with renews most of the time. So if things get on the squishy and I leave them be that means that squishy is getting healed because the healer has nothing much else to do with her mana and that means that the healer might peel it off the squishy, or it's going to the healer when the squishy dies.

Maybe I'm extremely lucky with my healer, or I have a healer that is too nice. Right now about the only thing I'm slow to pull back off of is a hunter because they have an off tank, aspect of monkey and mail armor plus several good ways to drop aggro. Mages get attention, rogues get attention (though usually they can just hand aggro back), warlocks get attention, I've never tanked with a druid around. Heck I pull things off the paladin and other warrriors too because it should be hitting me.

Of course maybe since most of my parties have me as the only thing that can wear better than leather armor that might have something to do with it as well. I don't do squat for DPS. If things are going to die it's everyone else who is killing them so they need to not be taking damage, they need to be able to put out that damage.

I also check to see if the peel will be dead before whoever it is hitting. I leave them be in that case as well.

Or maybe I've just been with people who are pretty damn good with aggro so I don't really have to scramble that much and enjoy the challenge when I do. But I'm still bothered by a tank who doesn't feel they are there to keep everyone alive. Maybe I just need more bad experiences to sour me. Maybe I've been protection spec too long (my whole career) and don't want the only thing I can do taken away from me (because I have never played a lower DPS character than my protection spec warrior). Mobs hit me, I don't die, I make things like to hit me. That is my job because that is all I can do.

[Tal]

But I'm still bothered by a tank who doesn't feel they are there to keep everyone alive.
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I'm not saying that I don't try to keep everyone alive but if the party members in question continue to pull aggro off me and not manage their own aggro then I stop trying to pull it off. Its less frustrating for me in the long run to do so.

[Hillary]

I'm not saying that I don't try to keep everyone alive but if the party members in question continue to pull aggro off me and not manage their own aggro then I stop trying to pull it off. Its less frustrating for me in the long run to do so.
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Course, your healer might want to kill you if she notices, but hey . . .

;)

[Tal]

Course, your healer might want to kill you if she notices, but hey . . .

;)
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How so? If folks don't make an effort to control their aggro its my fault as the tank? I can only do so much with revenge, sunder, demo shout and taunt when a DPS'er keeps trumping that with damage.

[Treesh]

How so? If folks don't make an effort to control their aggro its my fault as the tank? I can only do so much with revenge, sunder, demo shout and taunt when a DPS'er keeps trumping that with damage.
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What she's saying is that if the healer has to use up mana keeping those people alive, it's aggravating to the healer too. Tell the people to watch their aggro, don't just leave it up to the healer to keep them alive or have the healer just let them die. Other healers may feel differently, but I do not sacrifice people unless I absolutely have to, including pets (with the exception of Imps. They just have too few hitpoints and only cost mana to bring back so they are the most expendable of everything). Aleri's been holy specced her whole life. I don't expect to do damage; I expect to keep everyone alive for as long as I can so they can do damage. There have been times when my mages were the most important in the group because we needed AoE DPS or no one was coming out alive. If someone dies, it's usually because I didn't do something I should have (or at least that's the way I feel). If my tank is just letting things beat on my mages or rogues instead of trying to get things off of them, both the tank and the DPS monkey(s) are getting a talking to. We are in there as a group and we will work as a group. No one is expendable and everyone has a purpose. I sure as hell can't kill all that crap by myself so I'll do whatever it takes to keep all my people alive and killing for me.

Edit: Now, when I'm playing Eth, it's a different story. If I get aggro and can't give it back, don't worry about me. I've got enough tricks up my sleeve to keep my butt alive most of the time if I get aggro that I can't shed. At least I can usually stay alive long enough to do my DPS role so we aren't in a whole load of trouble if I die. GG doesn't worry about my health too much either. He's seen enough times where I can pull my tricks and come out alive (hurt, but alive) after he's gone down as the druid, with only worrying about his own health. I try not to give my healers heart attacks though. :)

[Tal]

What she's saying is that if the healer has to use up mana keeping those people alive, it's aggravating to the healer too.  Tell the people to watch their aggro, don't just leave it up to the healer to keep them alive or have the healer just let them die.  Other healers may feel differently, but I do not sacrifice people unless I absolutely have to, including pets (with the exception of Imps.  They just have too few hitpoints and only cost mana to bring back so they are the most expendable of everything).  Aleri's been holy specced her whole life.  I don't expect to do damage; I expect to keep everyone alive for as long as I can so they can do damage.  There have been times when my mages were the most important in the group because we needed AoE DPS or no one was coming out alive.  If someone dies, it's usually because I didn't do something I should have (or at least that's the way I feel).  If my tank is just letting things beat on my mages or rogues instead of trying to get things off of them, both the tank and the DPS monkey(s) are getting a talking to.  We are in there as a group and we will work as a group.  No one is expendable and everyone has a purpose.  I sure as hell can't kill all that crap by myself so I'll do whatever it takes to keep all my people alive and killing for me.
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I think we're all on the same page but coming from different angles. I'm saying its a group effort - if dps'ers let me lock and maintain aggro they don't get beat upon and the healer only has to worry about healing me. In general I'll tell people to lay off so I can maintain control but in the heat of the battle it can be very difficult to take the time to type out anything more than "lay off". It isn't the sole job of the tank or the healers to keep everyone alive - the DPS'ers have to manage their aggro as well.

I've had mages start casting fireball as soon as I select a target, follow up with a pyroblast, frost nova and then arcane missiles all while I'm hitting the target, shouting and taunting. I was then blamed for the wipe because the healer started expending mana to keep the mage alive and moved to the top of the mobs hate list so that when polymorph popped he had two mobs pounding on him. I quit that group before it got out of hand but its the job of everyone to be mindful of aggro, not just the healer and the warrior.

[Treesh]

its the job of everyone to be mindful of aggro, not just the healer and the warrior.
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And that's why I said both the tank and the DPS monkeys get talked to about it. When something goes wrong in the groups I'm in, we talk about it afterwards. What went wrong, was it just bad luck, bad timing, someone going balls-to-the-wall at the wrong time? Some quirk where a baddie goes running off into a room that wasn't fully cleared when he never used to run on other trips in there? ;)

[Darian]

Well my healer tells me she only heals me with renews most of the time.  So if things get on the squishy and I leave them be that means that squishy is getting healed because the healer has nothing much else to do with her mana and that means that the healer might peel it off the squishy, or it's going to the healer when the squishy dies. 
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1) I didn't say "If you ain't healin', he ain't generating hate." I'm referring to me essentially disengaging from my position and giving chase when I say "peeling." Anyone in my party who draws aggro away from me at range who doesn't bring the mob back to me is going to get chewed out. (I never have to do this in CA/Lurker groups, I'm happy to note.)

2) The other key point was "unless he has nothing better to do." If we're only talking one mob, I'll chase the sucker all over the instance if I have to, no problem. If we've got two mobs which aren't crowd-controlled... I've probably done just enough to the secondary mob to ensure he won't peel off after my healer when I get flashed, but if the healer has to start pouring mana on an over-aggressive mage... the healer's going to find TWO mobs snacking on tasty squishy flesh real quick. If a squishy pulls the mob off me, it is imperative that I start locking down the second mob right then and there, because the DPS is going to follow the peeling mob and (hopefully) kill it before it can do too much damage. (Major exception: the peeler is a boss.) If it's the secondary mob that's running off somewhere... then it's going to be heading for the healer unless someone's done something colossally stupid. If we've got more than two non-controlled mobs, it's a whole different ballgame.

[Darian]

If my tank is just letting things beat on my mages or rogues instead of trying to get things off of them, both the tank and the DPS monkey(s) are getting a talking to.
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As I mentioned to GG, if it's just one mob it's not an issue; if there's more than one, I'm not about to ignore the secondary mob who's had minimal hate generated against him... because the minute you have to start healing the mage that secondary mob's coming for you, and then all of a sudden it's a moot point because protecting you takes precedence.

If I can get a taunt off in time to yank the mob back before he even gets to the mage, that's a different story altogether, of course. I'm just not going to run around like a chicken with my head cut off to save someone who's gotten over-exuberant when there's still a threat to the healer sitting out there who's still only marginally pissed at me.

[NotSoDarklord]

Here's the thing. As stated in a below response. I typically can manage aggro just as well as I want to. I have no problem with sacrificing damage in order to feint more and not backstab as much or cb+eviscerate. I don't die all over MC and I would if I charged in there the way I tend to do in those raids. Whenever it becomes a threat to the group or could hurt our progression or rate of progression I go back to being a good dwarf.

Why do I do it? I get bored :) Most mobs can be taken down within 5 seconds, if I steal aggro I can pop an evasion and if I get unlucky maybe take 500 points of damage. It's evil to priests, but generally I just don't worry unless I'm sucking up shields or flash heals. (And neither do they, or at least in the case of Hillary)

Interestingly enough I tend to try to never do it on bossfights like the baron (The baroness is one exception). What happened there is 2 backstab crits in a row as well as something like 5 normal attacks critting. I was screwed, had already used feint 2 seconds or so earlier to prevent stealing aggro in the first place and didn't have evasion. I thought he'd go straight for treesh if I vanished so I just let myself die. 10% durability is my penalty for f*cking around :) I'm perfectly fine with that and expect it.
edited: Something needed editing.

[Treesh]

As I mentioned to GG, if it's just one mob it's not an issue; if there's more than one, I'm not about to ignore the secondary mob who's had minimal hate generated against him... because the minute you have to start healing the mage that secondary mob's coming for you, and then all of a sudden it's a moot point because protecting you takes precedence.

If I can get a taunt off in time to yank the mob back before he even gets to the mage, that's a different story altogether, of course.  I'm just not going to run around like a chicken with my head cut off to save someone who's gotten over-exuberant when there's still a threat to the healer sitting out there who's still only marginally pissed at me.
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If the mage isn't AoEing, the secondary mob doesn't even know the mage exists. It may know the healer exists because of healing the tank, but it's not going to pull to me by healing the mage/rogue. The first mob that the mage (or rogue) pulled will possibly be coming after me when I heal the mage, but it just depends on how much that mage angered it. ;) With Littledude and Sabra, if they've pulled aggro when AoEing, my shields and heals on the mages aren't going to pull aggro to me (most of the time) because the amount of threat they generated to get it away from Gnolack is far more than what I'm generating by healing unless GG just sits there and doesn't try to pull aggro from any elites that may have decided to try to eat the mages. The non-elites die quickly enough to dual mage AoE that it's not too much of an issue. Usually, he's gotten the elites locked down tight enough though that they don't run to the mages. Part of that is our mages holding off to give him the time to lock aggro and part of that is him working to make sure all the elites are locked on him. It takes a lot of threat to pull stuff off of Gnolack when he's working to hold it. He even managed to hold it fairly well against that DPS monster Sommli when we were playing in the Blasted Lands. (Although Sommli has gotten a better dagger since then. ;) )

Now, a bad luck streak of misses and parries can throw a monkey wrench into the works, but honestly warriors can hold aggro pretty easily against a lot of critters as long as the DPS monkeys just give them a short amount of time to do it in. If the DPS monkey is constantly pulling aggro, talk to them about it. Don't just do the "I'm going to let him die" UNLESS you have cleared it with your healer first. If the healer agrees to let the monkey die to teach him a lesson, fine. Sometimes that's the only way people will learn. But if your healer is still trying to keep the DPS dealer alive, you had better work at keeping the DPS monkey alive too or you're not only going to piss off the monkey, you're going to aggravate your healer too and whether or not it's your fault, you'll still be blamed for it and tarnish your rep. And rep does matter in MMOs.

[Hillary]

Wow. This has turned into a great tactical thread. Thanks for being so uber guys!

:D

[Darian]

If the mage isn't AoEing, the secondary mob doesn't even know the mage exists.

Sure it does, unless it's not tied to the primary mob in any way, and even then if the mage is within the secondary mob's aggro radius he sure does know about him.

It may know the healer exists because of healing the tank, but it's not going to pull to me by healing the mage/rogue.

Seen it happen...

Don't just do the "I'm going to let him die" UNLESS you have cleared it with your healer first.

Thing is, I Do Not Party with healers I don't know. I never even 5-manned with Flyn until I'd gotten used to him in raiding circumstances. To me, the symbiosis between healer and tank is too important to be wasting time with unknown quantities. My worst experiences in this game have had one thing in common: I didn't know the priest.

you're going to aggravate your healer too and whether or not it's your fault, you'll still be blamed for it and tarnish your rep.  And rep does matter in MMOs.
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Nobody's ever taken issue (to my face) with my anger management, and pretty much everyone I group with seems to make a point of asking me to do so again later, so I'm not too worried about my rep... :)

[Drasca]

Why do I do it?  I get bored :)  Most mobs can be taken down within 5
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Yep, and if its a stunnable mob, GG. Let the rogues do their stunlock thing if they want to. If they have good judgement, it won't be against 1-hit KO mobs, or aoe caster mobs. Against a normal caster, fine, but not a priority target such as firebrand evokers in LBRS. Those need to be CC'ed or taken out immediately. Against something like elite dragonkin however, they'll do just fine on their own if they want to.

I like rogues who gouge enemies if they come too close to the priest. I don't like if they're just skilled enough to stun, but not experienced to turn around before popping a sheep / charm CC option afterward. I hate hunter pets much in the same fashion. Only send pets when things get desperate, and then only do one hit for aggro steal while on passive and switch back targets to main.

Hmm. Seeing priests turn rogue and mage... and warriors turn other class... I see why I'm loved as a warlock by priests. I have a number of 'save the priest' save the day tricks. Charm, fear, aggro theft via pet or spells, banish (if applicable), healthstone (if the priest ever remembers), soulstone.

I love when healers are smart enough to heal my demon pet (except enslaved demons and imp, he doesn't need to be healed--can remain out of battle). Healing pet = healing me in the case of soul link. I feel my demons are an extension of me. Especially succubi. If the succubus is neglected, then the once charmed and controlled enemy is now going to go after the healer. Wipe incoming. This is also why I hate people who don't wait for recharm and attack my charmed targets.

I find warlocks (and hunters) are in a natural position for tactical calls. Everyone else is busy focused on their respective health bars, friendly or enemy, while the warlock watches the entire battle shifting from target to target, always watchful of CC and all target debuffs.

[Mirajj]

Wow, lots of great stuff to read in this post. It's helped me quite a bit thinking about both my hunter and how my priest will handle things when she gets high enough to start grouping with someone other than her MT.

I know that when I'm in an instance, for the most part, my pets Growl is off. She's in straight DPS mode, and I sic on her on whatever the MT is on. That makes it quite easy for me to turn "Squishy shield" if needed, recalling her, putting on growl as she (and I) run to the new target and begin attacking. That's pretty much the only time I have her growl on in an instance, unless I forget to turn it off after a shielding.

In the group that I'm usually in, I find that I'm generally second on the "high armor" level, with GG the main tank above me, so I take up the role of dealing with squishy peels if I can. Usually it's a race between GG and I to see who can deal with the peel more quickly. He's a pretty fast Gnome. ;)

On the subject of peels...I find that I only tend to do it if I get lucky with a long string of crits. Not much I can do about that. But I acknowledge the fact that the MT is usually busy. As well...if I've managed to peel something, by the time it makes it the 40 odd yards to me, it's on it's last legs, and I just finish it off. I also wouldn't want to make the MT run the 40 yards-ish to me, dragging everything with him. That screws everything else up, as everyone has to retarget while the MT runs around. So if I peel something off, I fully understand that it'll likely be 'just' me killing it. Which I don't usually have a problem with.

I guess I tend to do OK with aggro in a group/instance. I can't really recall ever using Feign Death for anything other than complete wipe avoidance. My problems in instances tend to come from pet pathing... ;)

[Treesh]

Seen it happen...

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And I've seen it not happen. /shrug

[Treesh]

while the warlock watches the entire battle shifting from target to target, always watchful of CC and all target debuffs.
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That's not a warlock thing. That's solely dependent on the player.

[vor_lord]

Sure it does, unless it's not tied to the primary mob in any way, and even then if the mage is within the secondary mob's aggro radius he sure does know about him.

But is he on the hate list at all, or just the aggro radius, meaning if no one else is left he will be attacked?

We need to do some follow up here. I was always under the same impression as Treesh. If you haven't hit the mob, or healed it's target (or perhaps healed anyone on its hate list), you basically didn't exist. You'd end up being targeted if all those on the hate list died and you're within aggro radius, but otherwise ignored.

Here's a test: two people needed. One person aggroes the mob. Second person steps within aggro radius, then backs out of aggro radius (but not so far as to invoke the evade mode return of the mob if you're not in an instance).

First person dies. Does the mob go after the second? If it does, just being in the proximity of the monster (not first) is sufficient to put you on the hate list, like you said.

Interesting question.

Seen it happen...

Regardless of the result of the test above, I'd have to see this demonstrated. I've not seen this happen, and our group should have if anyone does as we are a pretty heavy focus fire group, generally not caring too much about peels of the focus fire target as we bring them down quickly rather than recover them onto the tank, at least in what we view as non-dangerous pulls.

In all this time, I have never seen (by that I mean it could've happened and I just didn't notice) a secondary mob go after a DPS char when they are damaging a different target.

I'd love to know for sure.

( :wub: this thread)

[Kevin]

Once again I don't really think our views or tactics are really that different. I think I just interpret you wrong all the time. :)

I'm a bit touchy with all my communication lately anyway.


Some general things.

I do let rogues play their stun games then take the mob back, that's assume the thing isn't immune to stuns from revenges already.

I have a tendency to save concussion blow against weak hitting mobs so that I don't have to run far against peelers. I will be delighted with the change in 1.5 that makes it instant. Of course against hard hitters concussion blow is part of my damage mitigation strat and may or may not be there when the mob peels. I will also at times chase a peel, stun it and then leave it since the 2-5 sec (depends on how much it has been stunned recently) of time can often be enough to make that mob irrelevant.

I said I take it off of paladins and warriors too, and that is true, but it depends on the mob and the healers mana bar. Most warriors I've been with are arms/fury and take more damage than I do. Pretty much all paladins take more damage than I do. So that means it is easier on the healer for them to hit me. I've let mages and warriors take aggro away from me at times on purpose too. There are situations where it makes sense (usually when the healer is low or out of mana and I'm low on HP, or when there are multiple mobs to deal with and that one isn't going to live very long anway). So there are times I've intentionally turned from the primary target early to start locking more on the other mobs and just let it run. I put up a piercing howl to slow it down but still let it go.

But I do a lot of target switching regardless. I play dangerous games with the primary targets level of hate with me. I love getting a revenge ready and then switching to hit something else becuase I dont' think anything causes more hate when I'm in def stance right now than a revenge does.

So yeah, I was overly strong in my earlier comments and as I led this out with, I just misinterpreted tal and Darian, with the way I've been lately it was probably intentional on my part without me knowing it too. So use your filters on my posts to get the good info out of them and ignore the rest.

edit: a few typos and I said dem shout when I meant piercing howl.

[Tal]

I said I take it off of paladins and warriors too, and that is true, but it depends on the mob and the healers mana bar. Most warriors I've been with are arms/fury and take more damage than I do.  Pretty much all paladins take more damage than I do.  So that means it is easier on the healer for them to hit me.
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Just as a side note by way of FYI - with Sharanna if I pull aggro off you inadvertently its okay if you don't pull it back right away or if at all. She really won't fall over right away. ;) Its also perfectly okay for the healer to tell me to manage my own heals if I do this - just so long as I know I need to do so. :)